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Re:The End of OS X by y7 on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:16PM (#23619654)
Applications and hardware drivers on Mac just work. Even Homebrew works pretty nicely. The visuals of Mac are vastly superior to any flavor of Linux I've tried: smooth graphics, font rendering, HiDPI support, etc. Some aspects of Mac hardware (screen, touchpad) are very hard to come by with other manufacturers.

At this point I'll probably switch to Linux as soon as my 2015 Macbook stops working, but I would've really liked to stay with Apple.

Re:The End of OS X by saghm on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:54PM (#23620117)
> Even Homebrew works pretty nicely

It always surprises me when people cite homebrew as a plus rather than a minus in these discussions. Compared to the experience I have with Linux package managers, I've found homebrew to be extraordinarily slow even at the best of times. A simple "brew update" will generally take at least 30 seconds; in that time on something like pacman, I'll usually not only have already finished fetching the list of updates but also actually performing the upgrades, and that's updating my entire system, not just a few userspace packages that I have installed. I can understand that some people prefer MacOS and I don't think they're wrong for doing so, but it's hard for me to believe that someone has given Linux a fair shot when they cite package management as something that Macias does better.

Re:The End of OS X by wool_gather on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:47PM (#23620768)
In my experience this is partly because Homebrew has steadily moved to a "knows better than you" stance and every time you ask it to do one thing, it goes off and does a bunch of other things first.

MacPorts is well worth a spin if you're on a Mac and have trouble with Homebrew. I switched sometime last year and am very happy. I think I've actually been using it more because I know it's not going to be a pain every time.

Re:The End of OS X by jonhohle on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @08:25PM (#23622301)
I've been a MacPorts user since the days of Fink vs. MacPorts and tried and failed to use brew many times.

The biggest argument at the beginning for Homebrew over MacPorts was binary distribution and now MacPorts has that and can still compile custom versions if necessary.

MacPorts is always the first thing I install on a new Mac and has been for over 15 years. The several times I've seriously tried Homebrew, I get frustrated (terrible jargon, missing packages, spewing files all over my system, lax security) and go back to MP.

Re:The End of OS X by Normille on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @06:45AM (#23626399)
I've been using Homebrew for years and, although I've not had any major problems with it, I do find the slowness irritating. And also the fact it tends to ridiculous bloat by keeping previous versions of everything installed, unless you remember to do some spring cleaning every now and then.

I'm up for giving MacPorts a go. But is there a pain-free way to transition between Homebrew and MacPorts, without having to reinstall everything over again? I've installed a load of stuff with Homebrew, over the years and don't fancy having to pick through it all again to try and remember what I installed and why.

Re:The End of OS X by millimeterman on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:42AM (#23624180)
While Homebrew is absolutely slow, the experience of package management on macOS (homebrew gets you bleeding-edge versions of the crap you install, whereas Apple manages the system and keeps it stable) is IMO better than Linux where the choice of stable vs. bleeding-edge is systemwide.
Re:The End of OS X by Shared404 on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:35PM (#23632016)
Obviously requires significant setup, but this[1] seems to solve the issue you are talking about on linux.

[1] https://bedrocklinux.org/

Re:The End of OS X by asah on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:19PM (#23620443)
Yeah sigh, homebrew had definitely slowed down in recent years.
Re:The End of OS X by nicoburns on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:24PM (#23621131)
> in that time on something like pacman

If you're using Pacman (and presumably Arch or some derivative), that might explain your better experience on Linux. You're on a rolling distro so you get up to date packages (and I believe AUR gets things even quicker).

Homebrew is much closer to that rolling always-up-to-date (within a day or two usually) experience than Apt or Yum on Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora (most people's linux experience), where you have a choice between packages that are 3-6 months out of date or hunting around on the web for a 3rd-party repository to add which contains more up to date packages.

Homebrew can be slow. But the fact that I can `brew install X` or `brew upgrade X` and get on with something else while it's doing it's thing means it doesn't generally take up much of my time.

Re:The End of OS X by saghm on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:31PM (#23621201)
> Homebrew is much closer to that rolling always-up-to-date (within a day or two usually) experience than Apt or Yum on Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora (most people's linux experience), where you have a choice between packages that are 3-6 months out of date or hunting around on the web for a 3rd-party repository to add which contains more up to date packages

It still has a centralized list of the versions of the packages it supports (on github) though, right? I feel like it should be able to get this list with a single HTTP request to the Github API; I don't see why having a faster or slower schedule to update the packages should affect how long it takes to actually download the list of updated packages with `brew update`.

Re:The End of OS X by willtim on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:03PM (#23620942)
> The visuals of Mac are vastly superior to any flavor of Linux I've tried.

This is subjective. I think the MacOS UI looks and acts like a toy. My Linux machine has a solarised theme (I can toggle light/dark) with minimal window borders (i3, polybar). I think it's much more tasteful than MacOS. GNOME looks better too and it's themeable, unlike MacOS. But this is all of course just my opinion.

Re:The End of OS X by potta_coffee on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:57PM (#23621432)
I agree. I dislike the Mac UI, particularly Finder. The one Mac tool I use and love is the screenshot shortcuts. Other than that, 99% of my time is spent in the terminal and Sublime Text, and Firefox.
Re:The End of OS X by pcwalton on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:22PM (#23619723)
At this point FreeType is generally better (faster, more featureful) than Apple's Core Graphics, although FT is very customizable and I prefer Apple-like defaults to the ones most Linux distros use. You can definitely get Apple-like rendering out of FreeType; disabling hinting and making sure stem darkening is on gets you most of the way there.
Re:The End of OS X by fsflover on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:37PM (#23619892)
> hardware drivers on Mac just work

Same for GNU/Linux if you choose the hardware for it (or buy preinstalled).

Re:The End of OS X by ukd1 on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @07:42PM (#23621904)
Try getting hardware accelerated video in Chrome, or FF. Not supported.
Re:The End of OS X by snark42 on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @07:57PM (#23622041)
Interestingly enough this causes all kind of weird distortion on my brand new 16" MBP. Not sure if it's a hardware issue, but it only happens in the browser with GPU acceleration turned on...
Re:The End of OS X by dzonga on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @10:13PM (#23623165)
hardware acceleration has been supported in FF since 75. however your display scaling has to be 100% on x-org or use it in wayland. Linux desktop would've been perfect if it weren't for the fragmentation. btw currently running ubuntu 20.04
Re:The End of OS X by TwoBit on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:51PM (#23620088)
In my experience this argument is BS. Maybe the computer on day one works OK, but it's downhill from there as you maintain and update.
Re:The End of OS X by koyote on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:33PM (#23621221)
Huh, in twenty years of using Linux, hardware support has improved with each update not gone down hill.

What I do agree with is that on day one support might not be as good for new types of hardware (especially for more niche hardware like a fingerprint reader for example). Even that has improved a lot over the years though.

Re:The End of OS X by ByteJockey on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:09PM (#23620995)
It really does depend on the hardware.

Thinkpads usually work really well out of the box (even the nipple mouse works without a hitch).

I have plenty of horror stories about other computers though. Usually involving being deep in some page tree on a company's website that they don't seem to have actually expected anyone to go to, trying to figure out which specific vendor id maps to the actual hardware I have.

Re:The End of OS X by alacombe on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:37PM (#23620653)
> ... but it's downhill from there as you maintain and update

I've been maintaining a Fedora desktop installed 8 years ago without a snag, updating every year or so as time permit. Not a single problem.

Re:The End of OS X by pjmlp on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:53AM (#23625290)
I did exactly that with an Asus Netbook, then Canonical and AMD broke the whole experience with their actions replacing working binary drivers with WIP FOSS alternatives, because Free is Good ™.
Re:The End of OS X by reidjs on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:48PM (#23620045)
Until you have to connect to a 12 year old printer at work
Re:The End of OS X by brianguertin on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:57PM (#23620155)
Mac and Linux actually use the same printer stack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CUPS
Re:The End of OS X by IntelMiner on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:14PM (#23620390)
Most corporate printers are network attached, many also run under CUPS
Re:The End of OS X by alacombe on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:35PM (#23620633)
> Applications and hardware drivers on Mac just work.

... until Apple decides to break an API and not provide equivalent functionality, and then you end up with a perfectly functional soft-bricked paperweight. I can't use my external USB monitor because of this.

Re:The End of OS X by CraftThatBlock on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:48PM (#23620048)
Except when they broke most Homebrew installations a few years back (Mojave maybe? Been using Linux for a while now too, that was my tipping point)
Re:The End of OS X by potta_coffee on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:56PM (#23621418)
I switched to Ubuntu for work about a year ago, I've done zero fiddling since the day I set it up. Linux has really come a long way even in the last 5 years, IMO. I still have a 2015 MBP that I use for my personal work and it's still solid.
Re:The End of OS X by darkteflon on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @07:36PM (#23621840)
Same, as of late last year I now run an Ubuntu desktop and the Macbook together. What I really like about this setup is the ability to sidestep some problems instead of having to solve everything, allowing me to focus on doing paid work instead of troubleshooting the platform.
Re:The End of OS X by gavinray on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:09PM (#23620311)
Everything on Ubuntu just works, too.
Re:The End of OS X by adolfojp on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:43PM (#23621314)
Except for fractional scaling if you use the proprietary NVIDIA driver. This was an issue on the latest LTS release.
Re:The End of OS X by lostmsu on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @07:27PM (#23621740)
It became worse for me since I upgraded to 20.04. Now central screen in 3 screen setup gets panned, which can only be fixed from Nvidia control panel + graphics manager restart. It breaks on the screen lock. Don't upgrade to 20.04 yet, if that's what you have.
Re:The End of OS X by kelnos on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:04PM (#23620242)
I've been running Linux on Macs since my 2005 12" PowerBook. There were a couple years in the middle here I switched to OS X with Linux running in a VM due to hardware support issues (the VM was a pain in the ass to use; there were no end to performance problems). I never liked OS X as an OS all that much. It was fine, but I found it got in my way more than it helped me.

In 2016, after getting tired of various hardware bits never working just right on Linux, I gave up and tried someone else's hardware. It was amazing that everything just worked with Linux. I didn't have to fight with bleeding-edge, just-reverse-engineered drivers. I didn't have to wonder if the laptop was going to wake up again after being put to sleep. But I chose somewhat poorly: the hardware I chose was decent, but rough. The battery expanded to the point where it warped the case, which caused the keyboard illumination to intermittently not work, and eventually made the touchpad impossible to use.

So I gave up in 2018 and got a MacBook Pro again, though it was a secondhand 2016 model. Once I installed Linux, I found that the keyboard and touchpad didn't work, and I had to build an out-of-tree driver for it, ditto for the WiFi. After that I found that audio and suspend-to-RAM didn't work. It turns out I was "lucky" that I had an older model; the keyboard and mouse setup in the 2017 and 2018 models hadn't been reverse engineered yet and didn't work at all.

In 2019 I got fed up with having to use the USB-C headphone adapter from my Pixel in order to hear sound, and to remember to shut my laptop down completely if I was going to be away from AC power for more than a few hours. I again left the Apple hardware world. It's not perfect, but again I marvel at how everything just works (with Linux) without tweaking. I hear so many colleagues complain about various inexplicable broken things on macOS all the time, and I think I've gotten the better deal.

Is Linux as polished as macOS? Of course not. I agree with you that the graphics aren't as smooth, font rendering isn't as good (though this is debatable; personally I find Linux rendering to be more crisp and readable than macOS), HiDPI support varies depending on what toolkit any given app was written with. But it works well enough. I think one of the biggest problems that has kept (and will continue to keep) Linux from going mainstream is that even though for the most part it works just fine, when it does break, it breaks spectacularly to the point that you need specialized knowledge to fix it. Fortunately I have that specialized knowledge, so I'm fine, but your average home user does not.

I don't have to deal with Apple's keyboard design issues, random WiFi failures (yes, it is incredibly funny to me to find that Linux WiFi can work better than macOS), Apple's overzealous "system integrity protection", or Apple in general deciding they know better than I do as to how I want to use my computer. It makes me happy, and I feel productive.

Re:The End of OS X by sergeykish on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:59PM (#23621452)
You are quite persistent on Mac hardware. Why?

It is hostile platform, it should be rough. I use 14" Dell Latitude - no problems at all, beautiful machine. Probably would stay on it or try Asus ZenBook.

Re:The End of OS X by kelnos on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @11:14PM (#23623607)
Because the hardware is beautiful and the build quality is (was?) excellent. Recent fumbles like the butterfly keyboard design have definitely reduced that perception, though.

I have a Dell XPS 13 now, and while I like it, it's just not as pretty as a MBP. I recognize that that's a highly subjective judgment, but that's a thing that matters to me. The XPS's build quality is good, but not amazing; for example, I've had it for less than a year, and one of the rubber strips on the bottom of the laptop has been peeling off for the last few months.

Overall it just makes me sad that "hostile platform" is even a thing. At this point I've decided that the alternatives are good enough for me, and the better hardware support tips the scales in favor of them.

Re:The End of OS X by Shared404 on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:38PM (#23632070)
Good experiences with the ZenBook line here. Pop!_OS worked out of the box with everything but the fingerprint reader, including the Optimus GPU.
Re:The End of OS X by mickotron on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @05:11PM (#23633933)
On my 2011 MacBook Pro I have run various Linux distributions since 2013. Mostly debian and now solus. Both have been a joy. I have not experienced the same issues that you describe. All my hardware just works out of the box.
Re:The End of OS X by stanislavb on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:46PM (#23620026)
Same story here
Re:The End of OS X by diminish on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:55PM (#23620138)
The window animation delays in mac are killing me - kind of in a month you lose hours of screen animation time. also macos has ZERO use case as a cloud OS. Any stuff you learn is meaningless except the unixy ones where linux rocks.
Re:The End of OS X by IOT_Apprentice on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:16PM (#23621053)
1) You can turn off windows animation, and it seems strange that it is a performance bottleneck.

2) macOS is not a cloud OS. It certainly can be a portal to the cloud quite easily, via terminal, iterm2, ssh/mosh, VNC etc. But you know that already.

You can also run VMs, KVM, docker et al on it as well.

Re:The End of OS X by diminish on Thursday June 25, 2020 @12:56PM (#23642745)
1. it's better to avoid macos totally. 2. u repeat what i said. linux is better in every detail