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Re:The End of OS X by cortesoft on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @03:51PM (#23619352)
I recently ran into some trouble with some tools installed in /usr/bin a while ago, and wanted to try making some changes.

Even with root, you can't touch /usr/bin. It took me way too long to try to figure out what was going on, and all the fixes were hacks.

Re:The End of OS X by wuunderbar on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @03:58PM (#23619438)
I may be missing something here, but why would you need to change the stock installed tools in /usr/bin? Seems like an easy way to screw up your OS installation. And it's not like a VM where you can rollback to a snapshot or relaunch.

If there really was an issue there then you either need to file a bug and have them mainline a fix, or yes hack/shim a fix on top for your needs. Perhaps leveraging PATH precedence.

Re:The End of OS X by luma on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:10PM (#23619575)
Embedded in your response is the general attitude one hears when concerned about not being able to do "a thing" in the Apple ecosystem: why would you want to do that?

Questioning the use case and insisting that one doesn't actually _want_ to do a thing instead of allowing the user to control their own system is the quintessential Apple experience.

Re:The End of OS X by qeternity on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:25PM (#23619759)
You can still do this thing, you just do it a different way that doesn't fundamentally risk breaking the OS. I understand that there may be some non-zero sized group of people who absolutely want to screw with protected OS files, and even for this group of people you can go and disable SIP and mess with the OS all you want (one of the Macs I have is a hackintosh, which requires some decent modification).

However most people, including me, and I'd venture most engineers too, would rather have a hardened system.

Re:The End of OS X by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:44PM (#23620001)
> Embedded in your response is the general attitude one hears when concerned about not being able to do "a thing" in the Apple ecosystem: why would you want to do that?

Funny, that's a quote I hear a lot in Linux Desktop ecosystems as well. I think it is just the nature of people so accustomed to a certain way of thinking that any other use case that comes along is automatically considered to be doing it wrong.

Re:The End of OS X by msla on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:54PM (#23620114)
Linux doesn't have a single desktop ecosystem. Apple very much has One Apple Way.

If Linux is going to get attacked for not having a single GUI, it would be nice if it weren't also attacked for having a repressive GUI monoculture. /s

Re:The End of OS X by groby_b on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:12PM (#23619603)
Apples open source devtools are old as dinosaurs, so that might be a common case.

But more importantly, it's the question whose laptop it is. I continue to think that the tools I build go to /usr/bin, because that's the way I like it. Apple is telling me I'm liking it wrong.

As for filing a bug with Apple - good one. Every single Apple dev considers radr:// a black hole, and the chance of getting a fix from Apple because of bugs filed (vs. Apple wants to fix it anyways) is slim to none.

Overall, Macs are more and more machines that want to prevent shooting yourself in the foot, at the price of less flexibility and access. This is a good choice for some, it's not a good choice for me. (And many other people who like hacking their machines)

Re:The End of OS X by Hamuko on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:19PM (#23619693)
>Apples open source devtools are old as dinosaurs, so that might be a common case.

Yeah, but there's a certain expectation that the tool that you have installed in /usr/bin is a certain version. There's a reason why tools like Homebrew generally do not overwrite built-in tools.

If you just replaced /usr/bin/python with Python 3, you'd probably break all kinds of things.

Re:The End of OS X by groby_b on Thursday June 25, 2020 @11:55AM (#23642089)
The point is, it is my machine to break. Apple is more and more deciding that I don't get to do that. It's a choice that benefits a large class of customers, but it's detrimental to people like me.

macOS used to be "Unix, but with a great GUI". It is turning into "iOS, but with a few command line tools".

Re:The End of OS X by growse on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:30PM (#23620575)
> I may be missing something here, but why would you need to change the stock installed tools in /usr/bin?

Because it's my computer that I paid for with my hard earned cash, and I want to.

How far we have fallen.

Re:The End of OS X by Hamuko on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:19AM (#23624699)
Then you should probably disable SIP and go do whatever the hell you hope to accomplish with that.
Re:The End of OS X by 72deluxe on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:30PM (#23621195)
I can't agree with this more! It's a bleak future. Back to Linux I guess.
Re:The End of OS X by cortesoft on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:55PM (#23620852)
I had other reasons that I needed my PATH to be in the order it was.
Re:The End of OS X by filleduchaos on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:32PM (#23621212)
> Even with root, you can't touch /usr/bin

Yes, you can. If you disagree with Apple's System Integrity Protection, you can take two whole minutes of your life (if even up to that, considering how quickly OSes boot these days) to turn it off permanently and mount the entire drive as read-writeable. For some strange reason, though, I tend to encounter far more people complaining about it than actually taking the steps needed to fix the "problem".

Re:The End of OS X by webmobdev on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:13PM (#23619614)
Perhaps what you need is Gnu core utilities - https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/coreutils.html ?

Just install it with macports and you can use all the tools by prefixing it with a g - gls for ls, gdd for dd etc. Some of these tools are newer versions than on macOS and hence improved (as GPL3 prohibits Apple from including newer versions).

Re:The End of OS X by cortesoft on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:51PM (#23620817)
Like I said, I could hack around it eventually.

It was annoying that I couldn't do the basic things I expect to be able to do on a machine as root

Re:The End of OS X by IOT_Apprentice on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @06:17PM (#23621063)
which is what /usr/local/bin is for, right?