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Re:Coffee Is Hard by godot on Friday October 18, 2019 @02:29PM (#21293884)
As a geek and a fan of 80s-90s PC games (not just Sierra but also LucasArts adventure games and so on), this was a super entertaining read on its own; but I also enjoyed some of these insights about life in general from it:

> Living is mostly a series of repetitive and unrelated tasks. It makes sense that the most tedious things to code are the tedious things that just have to be done. There are no life lessons or gymnastic skills involved in doing dishes, there’s no underlying theory of housework that will reveal itself after a thousand vacuum cleanings. Making coffee is a boring sequence of steps people feel stupid for getting wrong, even though they’re statistically doomed to screw it up now and then. The hard parts of of life are driving to work, eating properly, flossing, ....

Perhaps I found it particular insightful because I just became a parent a year ago. Prior to this, I thought I had optimized my life so well that most tedious work were gone from my life; with the peak being having switched to remote work and not having to even commute anymore.

Then I became a parent, and had to come to terms again with having to do a long series of repetitive and routine work every day -- washing bottles, dishes, changing diapers, etc. It was a bit of a cultural shock to my system since over the past 10 years I had slowly gotten used to / gradually removed or optimized aspects that are frictions / repetitiveness / tedious routines from my life; and suddenly it's 10x of it all coming back. Over the past year, I've come to realize this is what life is, which is exactly as the author said.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by monktastic1 on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:14PM (#21294245)
At the risk of sounding hippie, "tedious" and "boring" are emotional reactions to the chores, and not attributable to the chores themselves. We don't have to do that.

"Everything in life is miraculous. It rests within the power of each of us to awaken from a dragging nightmare of life made up of unimportant tasks and tedious useless little habits to see life as it really is, and to rejoice in its exquisite wonderfulness." ― James Branch Cabell, The Cream of the Jest

Not that I've remotely mastered it, but I think there's a lot of wisdom in there.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by Loughla on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:21PM (#21294309)
Not to sound too much like a hippie, either, but I learned (actually after having a kid as well) that when people talked about enjoying the ride, that's what they were talking about - the tedious stuff.

I always assumed it meant travel more and look for adventure, but I have come to understand that 'enjoying the ride' in your life, not always just pursuing some next thing is about enjoying the tedium.

Some of my favorite memories of my young children is the time we spent washing dishes together or watching them vacuum up the rugs and chase the cat with the broom.

It's all about enjoying the ride, man.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by rconti on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:17PM (#21295510)
The parent post, and your reaction to it, reminds me of the two days after my wedding.

We were rushing to get everything ready for the wedding. Picking up supplies. Moving into a house near the venue for a couple of days. Doing the wedding itself, packing up, getting home the next day. Obviously it goes without saying that the weeks leading up to the wedding were busy, just a little bit more so than every week before it.

But when I pulled the van into our driveway, 36 hours before leaving for our honeymoon, I had a blissful amount of time to just do mundane tasks. Return the kegs. Break down dozens of cardboard boxes from gifts that had arrived in our absence. Return the van to my friend's house, retrieve my car from same friend. Pack for 12 days away.

It's hard to put into words, but I just realized that I was in absolutely no hurry, because, for what felt like the only time in recent memory, I had more time than I had stuff to do. I was not pressured, or rushed, or thinking about what comes next. I had vacation in front of me, stress behind me, and limited mundane tasks in the present.

And that's how I found myself breaking down cardboard boxes with a huge smile on my face. Slowly, methodically taking them apart. Not annoyed at how many boxes there were. Not thinking about how I had to finish this, so I could do the next thing, so I could get to bed, so I could wake up for work the next day.

I don't think I've ever been so 'present' than I was in that moment.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by Doxin on Monday October 21, 2019 @07:41AM (#21311103)
To riff a bit on this: I've noticed in my life that I subconsciously subdivide every activity into two categories: things to accomplish, and obstacles to the former. I have not in my life ever enjoyed the second category. The crux being that by consciously re-sorting the activity from obstacle to target I get much more enjoyment out of it.

If I can convince myself that clearing the table for a new project is in itself a project it'll be cleared and washed and clean with a smile on my face. If I can't I'll be much more likely to just shove everything to the side to "solve" the obstacle and keep going.

I'm not very good at recategorising stuff on purpose yet, but it's definitely something I'm actively practicing.

Anyways I figured that's more or less the same thing as the journey-vs-destination thing worded a bit differently.

I'll end my ramble here before it gets too long.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by rconti on Monday October 21, 2019 @12:18PM (#21314044)
Thanks for this. I've heard folks refer to "replacing 'shoulds' with 'coulds'". Don't say "I SHOULD do the dishes"; it's not an obligation, it's a choice. You can let the dishes stack up. That will have its own consequences, but don't treat things like obligations, treat them like choices you're making.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by fizwhiz on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:37PM (#21295889)
Thanks for sharing that; it certainly put a smile on my face :)
Re:Coffee Is Hard by jkoudys on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:08PM (#21295772)
I read this as I watched my 2 year old daughter joyfully scrub the shower with a nylon brush. She's demanded the brush ever since she watched me use it months ago.

I think finding lovely things tedious is something most of us learn, then unlearn.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by viraptor on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:14PM (#21295804)
It's still new and exciting when you're 2. I don't think you're unlearning loving the tedious. Things are just not tedious at that point, but fun, novel, and optional. If she didn't want to scrub the shower, she wouldn't. But we have to do it.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by jkoudys on Saturday October 19, 2019 @12:44AM (#21296788)
Oh no, little kids absolutely love familiar, boring, repetitive things. They also like routine a lot and can get upset when given too much choice. Look at how often toddlers want to re-watch the same cartoon over and over.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by cerberusss on Saturday October 19, 2019 @02:41AM (#21297166)
Just give them a different spoon with their morning porridge and watch the drama unfold :D
Re:Coffee Is Hard by indemnity on Saturday October 19, 2019 @03:03AM (#21297242)
Just finished bath time with new toys...I didn’t think the old, mouldy, janky beyond repair toys would be missed. Oh boy, was I wrong.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by tripzilch on Saturday October 19, 2019 @11:29AM (#21298972)
maybe we do have an instinctual aversion to disposable culture? :)
Re:Coffee Is Hard by pushpop on Saturday October 19, 2019 @03:01AM (#21297234)
So true. So very true. I wish I could up vote this more than once.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by iamtheworstdev on Saturday October 19, 2019 @09:28AM (#21298354)
Semi related but there was an article on here or slash about that re-watching thing. Part of it is because they "miss" so much when watching it that it is almost like "watching it again for the first time". I wish my Google fu was working because it was a neat article about young brain development and such.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by throw0101a on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:52PM (#21294550)
Sisyphus may disagree. :)

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus

Re:Coffee Is Hard by jschwartzi on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:17PM (#21295154)
The horrifying aspect of Sisyphus is that he is doomed to do it for all eternity. Whereas we have only a limited time to cherish or despise every carpet vacuumed until we die. I believe that we transcend the mundane every time we embrace it and truly live it instead of wishing desperately to be doing something else.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by basq on Friday October 18, 2019 @09:23PM (#21296253)
I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain. One always finds one's burden again. But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He too concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night-filled mountain, in itself, forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

Albert Camus

Re:Coffee Is Hard by tripzilch on Saturday October 19, 2019 @11:32AM (#21298996)
Hah. I only ever encountered the last sentence of that quote and I thought it was an imperative.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by amatecha on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:50PM (#21295933)
Yup, every time I have some horrible/menial/stressful task to complete, I think "I appreciate the opportunity to even experience this moment and witness the dream of existence". I mean, maybe not with that wording, but that approximate sentiment of, I get to exist and experience all that entails, and I can appreciate it even if is "not enjoyable" at that moment. Of course that only really works for things that aren't truly terrible, but I think in general it's a good perspective to take!
Re:Coffee Is Hard by matwood on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:11PM (#21294702)
If I was Sisyphus and got the boulder to the top, I would push it back down myself.

I'm going to die eventually, so is it futile to exercise everyday, to learn, to try and be a better person? I don't think so, but all of those things are journeys that never end and require many mundane tasks.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by throw0101a on Sunday October 20, 2019 @12:30PM (#21305148)
> I'm going to die eventually, so is it futile to exercise everyday, to learn, to try and be a better person?

Many repetitive activities end up having a practical purpose: as someone who does strength training I know about sets and reps and lifting heavy things. But that gives me strength for everyday things.

But the point of giving Sisyphus that task is precisely because it is pointless. Sisyphus isn't doing anything with his existence except that task.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by psalminen on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:15PM (#21295147)
> If I was Sisyphus and got the boulder to the top, I would push it back down myself.

I'm really loving this quote, definitely using it at some point.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by matwood on Friday October 18, 2019 @09:45PM (#21296319)
In all fairness I think I first heard it here.

https://youtu.be/7qNGWjDzxpQ

Re:Coffee Is Hard by cosmic_ape on Saturday October 19, 2019 @09:58AM (#21298485)
I like the "Discipline is Freedom" on that guy's t-shirt. Its arguable, but its deep.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by matwood on Saturday October 19, 2019 @03:25PM (#21300223)
The person talking in the video is Jocko Willink [1]. He's written quite a few books, one of which is entitled "Discipline Equals Freedom: Field Manual"[2]. His whole concept is that increasing your discipline leads to more freedom.

How can one be free when they are a slave to their discipline? A great example is time, everyone wants more of it. The way to get more time is to not waste time. Being discipline with ones time is how not to waste it.

I'm far from the most disciplined person (practicing discipline is pushing the rock), but in the ~2 years since I really put more discipline in place it has changed me as a person. Highly recommended.

[1] He has podcasts, and many books. I suggest listening to Tim Ferris when Jocko was on as an intro.

[2] https://www.amazon.com/Discipline-Equals-Freedom-Field-Manua...

Re:Coffee Is Hard by alexhutcheson on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:23PM (#21294792)
One must imagine Sisyphus happy.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by 205guy on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:15PM (#21295497)
I wonder if sadistic Zeus would sometimes not give him a boulder to push for a day or two.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by hailk on Friday October 18, 2019 @09:59PM (#21296350)
I think the catch there is that Zeus doesn't imagine Sisyphus happy.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by 205guy on Thursday October 31, 2019 @02:11AM (#21406134)
The double catch is that neither Zeus's nor Sisyphus's state of mind matter, skipping a day or two is detrimental to both the good and the bad interpretation. If Sisyphus is unhappy pushing a rock every day (the first level interpretation) taking it away gives false hope and fosters doubt. If Sisyphus becomes happy or fulfilled pushing the rock, taking it away temporarily removes that satisfaction and again leads to doubt.

In other words, arbitrary and random work, putting someone in an uncertain and unpredictable situation is worse than constant and well-defined work.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by namaemuta on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:44PM (#21295662)
Your reference is outdated :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7E-ttJpJ7Q
Re:Coffee Is Hard by neumann on Sunday October 20, 2019 @08:06PM (#21308225)
"The only advice I have is, is that give you have to do some things anyway, you might as well find the joy in them and do them with a smile"

Changing a nappy bleary eyed at 4 am with an inconsolable screaming infant I recalled this advice from my friend with three kids. I had a sort of epiphany realizing that I could control me reaction and find joy in pretty much anything if I accept that it just has to be done.

Finally, it comes down to a decision when I am not enjoying something: i) Do I have to do this? (can I change the circumstances, or not do it) ii) if yes, be creative and enjoy it.

Surprisingly, works a lot of the time. The times this reasoning fails is when the task imposed on me is by other people that to my judgement have done it out of laziness, incompetence or exploitation.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by monktastic1 on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:07PM (#21294677)
Are we using the same definition of "tedious"? This is what I get:

Tedious: too long, slow, or dull; tiresome or monotonous.

"Too" long as in "longer than I'd like." Tiresome. Monotonous. Those sound like the opposite of enjoying the ride to me!

Re:Coffee Is Hard by ghostly_s on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:15PM (#21294733)
The point is you learn to appreciate the substance of everyday life and it ceases to feel tedious. Perhaps mundanity would have been a better word. This idea, by the way, is called "mindfulness" and is the essence of Buddhism.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by TeMPOraL on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:18PM (#21294756)
I think English translation of Buddhism could use some more distinct words, because "mindfulness" is also a part of "insight meditation", and - as far as I understand - these concepts are rather different from each other.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by bipson on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:38PM (#21294890)
Mind to explain how these concepts are rather different?
Re:Coffee Is Hard by jkoudys on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:11PM (#21295789)
The act itself is tedious, if that's all you focus on. Spending time together, enjoying the small little games we play, and the touches on the arm and dumb jokes that happen while we're doing something tedious, are some of the best memories. When you focus on the nothing that's happening, it's tedium. When you focus on everything around it and the break from the chaos of the rest of your day, it's still tedious, but it's also peaceful.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by fogetti on Saturday October 19, 2019 @12:59AM (#21296833)
It's tangential to the discussion but I find it surprising and slightly upsetting the fact that people downvote someone who basically quotes the definition of a word as-it-is, verbatim. It happens quite often on hacker news.

Are the folks here denying definitions and they make up their world instead and get upset when they encounter reality, or why does this downvoting happen? I'd really like to know.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by mistersquid on Saturday October 19, 2019 @02:53AM (#21297205)
Not a downvoter of GP and have no opinion of this particular provision of a definition.

However, “quot[ing] the definition” in this case is citing a denotative facet of the word. There is also nuanced and idiomatic usage that is indicated in connotative meaning.

Pointing to denotative meanings when connotation is more contextually relevant is often considered combative and may garner downvotes.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by jodrellblank on Saturday October 19, 2019 @04:48AM (#21297519)
It takes as long as it takes, how long you'd like it to take is a thought you can change. If you change your thought to want it to take as long as it actually takes, it stops being tedious?
Re:Coffee Is Hard by trevyn on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:01PM (#21294612)
There are many meanings, of which you have described two.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by GordonS on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:01PM (#21295407)
> watching them vacuum up the rugs and chase the cat with the broom

I find your definition of "tedious" to be at odds with your enjoyment of these experiences - maybe "tedious" is not the right word here?

Re:Coffee Is Hard by felipemnoa on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:35PM (#21295616)
>>that when people talked about enjoying the ride, that's what they were talking about - the tedious stuff

It sounds like a rationalization to me.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by jodrellblank on Saturday October 19, 2019 @04:01AM (#21297401)
So what?

"Oh this person rationalized happiness out of a miserable life, instead of just being miserable. Somehow, that's bad and nobody should bother doing that" .. ?

Re:Coffee Is Hard by dsfyu404ed on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:45PM (#21295916)
This. That said, there's some tedious things that are enjoyable when done occasionally.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by jodrellblank on Saturday October 19, 2019 @04:05AM (#21297408)
"tedious" and "enjoyable" are not inherent properties of things or events, they're states of the observer.

Things aren't tedious, you the observer put the label 'tedious' on them and then yearn to get away from them.

Since you are actually vacuuming and not putting it off or paying someone else to do it, this is unhelpful labelling which only serves to make you less happy. You may as well consider it a new instance of vacuuming never seen before and look for the differences and seek to enjoy it, as considering it the same vacuuming event as last time copy-pasted and look for the similarities and then call them boring. If you have to pass through it either way, why pick the interpretation which makes you feel worse?

Like "you never step in the same river twice" because the water changes, and you change, you never vacuum the same room twice.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by erikpukinskis on Saturday October 19, 2019 @05:25AM (#21297612)
“If you’re bored then you’re boring”
Re:Coffee Is Hard by davinic on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:02PM (#21294628)
"But most days, if you’re aware enough to give yourself a choice, you can choose to look differently at this fat, dead-eyed, over-made-up lady who just screamed at her kid in the checkout line. Maybe she’s not usually like this. Maybe she’s been up three straight nights holding the hand of a husband who is dying of bone cancer. Or maybe this very lady is the low-wage clerk at the motor vehicle department, who just yesterday helped your spouse resolve a horrific, infuriating, red-tape problem through some small act of bureaucratic kindness. Of course, none of this is likely, but it’s also not impossible. It just depends what you want to consider. If you’re automatically sure that you know what reality is, and you are operating on your default setting, then you, like me, probably won’t consider possibilities that aren’t annoying and miserable. But if you really learn how to pay attention, then you will know there are other options. It will actually be within your power to experience a crowded, hot, slow, consumer-hell type situation as not only meaningful, but sacred, on fire with the same force that made the stars: love, fellowship, the mystical oneness of all things deep down." -- David Foster Wallace, This is Water

https://fs.blog/2012/04/david-foster-wallace-this-is-water/

Re:Coffee Is Hard by empath75 on Friday October 18, 2019 @08:03PM (#21295966)
He killed himself.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by hprotagonist on Friday October 18, 2019 @10:22PM (#21296409)
fought the good fight, and then his meds stopped working.

are you holding that against him? Does this bear on the wisdom of the advice?

Re:Coffee Is Hard by dang on Saturday October 19, 2019 @03:12AM (#21297274)
Please don't post unsubstantive comments here.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by bigred100 on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:22PM (#21294778)
She may also be a deranged and unrepentant child abuser who uses whatever societal approval is thrown her way to justify and escalate her abuse. There’s simply no way to know.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by davinic on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:23PM (#21294788)
You've missed the point.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by lacampbell on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:22PM (#21295194)
Maybe they understood the point and disagreed with it.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by mistersquid on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:42PM (#21295324)
The point, if such a thing exists, is to accept any and all of those possibilities with equanimity.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by bryanrasmussen on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:48PM (#21295674)
sure, but taking one assumption is to approach from a position of harsh condemnation and the other is to approach from a position of possible forgiveness.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by bigred100 on Saturday October 19, 2019 @11:24AM (#21298951)
Sufficiently deranged people take forgiveness as approval and encouragement. It may be good to forgive and may not (at least in your external behavior—going around internally upset all the time is surely not good for anyone regardless). It requires prudence to figure out one way or the other.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by joe_the_user on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:05PM (#21295072)
I'm a fan of meditation and mind body awareness. I think that digging a ditch can a quite interesting because, while somewhat repetitive, it also involves variation and the challenge putting your entire body into the activity. Even dish washing or sweeping involves quite a bit of integrating intention and the use of the body.

All that said, I don't think you can say this is just a question of attitude. Some activities just inherently suck - 19th factory jobs, manual data entry and things of this sort can't be redeemed by attitude. Indeed, it's probably better to hate jobs like that than to think of them as a reasonable place for a human being to end up.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by unoti on Friday October 18, 2019 @09:14PM (#21296229)
> manual data entry and things of this sort can't be redeemed by attitude

Actually, this is false. I've been programming for 30 years straight, except for a brief 1 year stint as a data entry operator. I made it my goal to be the best data entry operator they had ever seen. This was for Robert Half/Accountemps, an employment agency that both acts as a headhunter firm for data entry operators and a contracting company that hires out data entry operators. I was able to continuously focus on getting better in such that I could accomplish as much in 4 hours as they're best high-end "professional" data entry operators could do in a day, with similar accuracy metrics. I did this by programming a series of macros to accelerate what I did, and other tricks such as pre-sorting similar items.

While I do agree with your general sentiment to some extent, the best way to deal with undesirable menial tasks is to dig in and push for excellence.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by Broken_Hippo on Saturday October 19, 2019 @03:53AM (#21297386)
... Push for excellence?

Seriously, if the dishes are clean, how much more excellence do I need? Same with most menial house-cleaning tasks. I don't mind a messy house, so why put more effort into doing these things than necessary?

You weren't doing what they were doing any more than a person with a dishwasher or robot vacuum are doing the chore of washing dishes or vacuuming, even if they are getting a similar result. You simply made the dishwasher, which is far more interesting than doing the manual stuff.

It wasn't redeemed by attitude, but by tools that made it better. Others might not have had the knowledge to so, which reflects better on what most folks are stuck with. Either no knowledge of ways to make it better or lack of permission to use that knowledge. Unlike you, they are stuck. The conveyor line only moves at x speed, you cannot tear the sale signs fast enough, federal laws say you have to fill out these forms, the company wants everyone to do it this way because compliance is better and standardised.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by growlist on Saturday October 19, 2019 @06:12AM (#21297727)
When I feel myself lapsing into grumpiness at the mundane nature of everyday life I sometimes manage to help myself by attempting to picture the theoretical ideal life I am not living, and then reflecting on the absurdity of wishing things were different. Should it involve: not having to do boring tasks? Being a bit taller, funnier and better looking? Being super rich? Being the most powerful person on earth? Being an omniscient, transcendental super-being, free of time and space, able to manipulate entire galaxies on a whim?

Everyone is missing out on something; everyone is a prisoner of circumstance.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by OnlineGladiator on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:23PM (#21294324)
I agree with your point that it's all about perspective, but you can easily spin it negatively.

"Life is suffering" -Buddha

"Tedium is the worst pain" -Grendel

I realize that first quote is meant to be encouraging, but you can take it at face value to mean what it is: most of life sucks.

Pessimism and optimism are choices we make on how to interpret reality based on our experiences. This might sound like some feel-good comment that you can easily just see things better if you try to frame it differently but it's not. I am profoundly cynical and genuinely believe the world would be a better place if more people would replace their unfounded optimism with skepticism. Sometimes there really isn't a reason to be optimistic other than a desire to feel better about the situation.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by mikestew on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:30PM (#21294389)
but you can take it at face value to mean what it is: most of life sucks.

Boy, howdy, have you misinterpreted the Buddha. I believe most would agree that in context, Buddha was saying, "Life is suffering because $REASONS. But it doesn't have to be, because $OTHER_REASONS." A vast oversimplification, yes, but I feel that it is a much more accurate representation of the quote.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by OnlineGladiator on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:32PM (#21294409)
If that's the case you're right and I'm completely wrong about that quote. I don't pretend to be a Buddhist so you're more likely to be right than me. I have not bothered to verify this as of this writing.

Another famous quote that everybody gets wrong because they cut it short:

"Distance makes the heart grow fonder"

That quote means separation is good for couples, but almost nobody knows the actual quote:

"Distance makes the heart grow fonder for those nearer"

This is saying distance destroys relationships and you will look for affection from someone who is available.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by SamBam on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:45PM (#21294500)
The fact that there was an original version of a quote doesn't make the original version any more "true," so I've never quite understood the instinct of people to use it as some kind of gotcha.

Indeed, if anything it seems like in general the opposite would be true, if common culture adapts a quote to more accurately fit their reality (irrespective of whether this particular quote is "true" or not).

(Also, I can't find any source for your claim, despite plenty of articles on the source of the phrase, such as https://quotes.yourdictionary.com/articles/who-said-absence-..., so I'm guessing that's a myth.)

Re:Coffee Is Hard by OnlineGladiator on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:53PM (#21294556)
Well shit :)

I didn't mean it as a gotcha, just that people will mangle quotes to support whatever idea they're trying to argue. Ironically it seems I have accidentally done the same thing.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by PsylentKnight on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:50PM (#21294535)
The actual quote from who? That sounds like something that was retroactively added - like how people say the full version of "Great minds think alike" is actually "Great minds think alike, small minds rarely differ." It's an aphorism. There is no definitive source.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by monktastic1 on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:13PM (#21294723)
"Life is suffering" is not something the Buddha ever said: https://fakebuddhaquotes.com/life-is-suffering/

He did say that we turn much of life into suffering by our unwise reaction to it.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by arc_of_descent on Saturday October 19, 2019 @03:43AM (#21297362)
Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by r00fus on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:14PM (#21295140)
As a sidenote, I find that being overly tired or stressed makes it far more difficult for me to appreciate/enjoy the miracle of the everyday quotidian.

Part of not being bored is to ensure you are "present", which is a whole lot easier when you're well rested.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by manifestsilence on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:39PM (#21295296)
Yes! There's a quote that resonated with me:

"Some people do the dishes to make them clean. Some people do the dishes to do the dishes."

Valuing the experience that is happening, whatever it may be, has power.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by DantesKite on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:25PM (#21294804)
It's interesting how all the tedious tasks listed are a product of modernity. Vacuuming, driving to work, flossing, doing dishes, etc.

I wonder how repetitive life feels for humans who still have to hunt for their food.

Not to say that we should shift back to a hunter-gatherer society, but I wonder how much of the mundaneness of life is something we brought on ourselves and not actually an implicit part of existence.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by knzhou on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:31PM (#21294838)
That's a totally backwards take. Most of these things are modern labor-saving devices that replaced even worse drudgery. Sweeping takes longer than vacuuming. Washing dishes by hand takes longer than a dishwasher -- especially if you don't have unlimited running water, or dish detergent, or if you need to start a fire to get hot water. Ancient Romans didn't have to deal with rush hour traffic, but research says their commutes were just as long as ours.

To put it another way: we used to required half of all human beings to attend to household tasks. That setup wasn't put into place because of malice, it was there by necessity. Managing a household used to take as much effort and thought as running a small business does today. Modernity has saved us from that.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by chrisco255 on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:00PM (#21295403)
The most stressful thing about modern commutes is that you can easily die if you take your eyes off the road for one second. Romans on horseback certainly didn't have that problem.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by knzhou on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:28PM (#21295576)
Back then you probably couldn’t afford even a horse, plus if your feet got a little scratch while walking you might have just died of infection a week later. Come on, any claim that antiquity had better living standards is absurd on its face.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by Doxin on Monday October 21, 2019 @07:45AM (#21311120)
Clearly the living standards were better, but I imagine there definitely were less things considered to be chores. Gathering food hardly gets boring if you're hungry.

That said I highly doubt if that's a preferable state of affairs.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by pshc on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:27PM (#21295568)
Driving to work doesn't fit with the others--it can be replaced with riding the subway to work. The automotive status quo is tragedy and farce.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by jdnenej on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:50PM (#21295936)
I find taking the bus to work quite relaxing. I can put on my noise cancelling headphones and rest for the whole trip
Re:Coffee Is Hard by ascorbic on Saturday October 19, 2019 @01:32AM (#21296944)
If anything, you're underplaying it. Beating a rug takes far longer than vacuuming or sweeping. Before the washing machine, doing the laundry could easily take a whole day (which is why people wore clothes far longer between washes)
Re:Coffee Is Hard by c3534l on Saturday October 19, 2019 @03:21AM (#21297304)
Sure, but even before that we didn't have rugs or floors to clean, we just died in damp caves and made stone blades.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by kiliantics on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:13PM (#21295800)
Ancient Romans were not hunter-gatherers so you are not making the right comparisons here. In fact, it's estimated that hunter-gatherers only do/did about 15 hours of productive labour a week, so doesn't seem they need our "labour-saving devices" since they already have much more free time than us.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by knzhou on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:44PM (#21295908)
Well, OP was complaining about modernity, so I compared to what came right before modernity. Hunter-gatherers might have actually had it better, under some measures -- but the world can't support that many of them.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by chrisco255 on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:59PM (#21295396)
I think I've read several studies that indicate hunter gatherers worked less than agrarian societies. However, agrarian societies are better at producing predictable abundance of food, so they outpace hunters by far. I will admit that hunting is incredibly fun. I do think we lost something as a trade-off when we moved to agrarian/industrial societies.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by bobbiechen on Friday October 18, 2019 @08:07PM (#21295987)
I recently saw an interesting review of Against the Grain by James Scott, which makes the claim that:

only the cereal grains can serve as a basis for taxation: visible, divisible, assessable, storable, transportable, and “rationable.”

And so early states led the way in agriculture in order to collect more taxes.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/10/14/book-review-against-th...

Re:Coffee Is Hard by chrisco255 on Saturday October 19, 2019 @01:58AM (#21297028)
I dunno, I suspect this is a cause and effect sort of thing. The grains and abundance probably came first, civilization came second, and with that came taxes and government.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by jotm on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:52PM (#21294981)
I'd imagine, if it was really early hunter gatherers, it would go more like "hungry, caught prey, ate, happy!". Way more impulsive responses. Throw in some "starving, I wish food was more stable, even if tedious". Anything after agriculture would include tedious tasks like tending to the crops and cleaning.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by jonahss on Saturday October 19, 2019 @12:34AM (#21296767)
I’ve been doing woodworking with just hand tools and wow, some tasks just take waaaaaay longer
Re:Coffee Is Hard by maxwindiff on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:28PM (#21294825)
They have their version of mundane tasks.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by jv22222 on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:59PM (#21295398)
At the risk of sounding pretentious, I gameify all those chores and try to do them more perfectly each time I do them.

I find this especially effective filling up the dishwasher more perfectly optimizing the layout each time.

I guess I approach these chores like Zen gardens.

Anyway that’s how I tricked my brain into turning the chores into quality time. ;)

Re:Coffee Is Hard by jamiek88 on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:26PM (#21295567)
Me too!

If I'm going to clean, I might as well work towards being amazing at it.

Same tetris with the dishwasher too as well as trying to find the correct amount of detergent to use per load over a period of time with different loads and soil levels.

Sad I know!

Re:Coffee Is Hard by jv22222 on Sunday October 20, 2019 @02:28AM (#21302578)
Re:Coffee Is Hard by jamiek88 on Monday October 28, 2019 @07:16PM (#21382814)
Now that is what I'm talking about!
Re:Coffee Is Hard by Doxin on Monday October 21, 2019 @07:50AM (#21311150)
I think the trick here is that by trying to be ever better at a chore you stop filing it mentally as "obstacle in the way of a target I'm trying to reach" and instead as a target in its own right.

The distinction is fairly small but at least for me personally it makes a gigantic difference in how much I like doing a task. If I'm woodworking I generally loathe sanding, it's repetitive, tiring, and dusty. But if I see the sanding as its own mini project I can spend hours getting it perfect.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by nivenhuh on Saturday October 19, 2019 @05:06AM (#21297560)
Lol — I always joke with my partner (an artist) about how much chaos he brings when he loads the dishwasher.

There’s a proper way!! I swear it!

Re:Coffee Is Hard by journalctl on Saturday October 19, 2019 @12:29PM (#21299262)
You jest, but it’s totally possible to screw up loading a dish washer. In the best case, you just wind up with dirty dishes. In the worst case, you end up with damage.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by keyle on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:45PM (#21295666)
I do a sort of thing like that but it's more in the speed running genre.

How fast can I do a reasonably good job at this, time starts now.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by ckcheng on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:32PM (#21294407)
> a long series of repetitive and routine work every day...aspects that are frictions / repetitiveness / tedious routines...this is what life is

Thanks. Just reminded me of this:

"One always finds one's burden again... He too concludes that all is well... Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night filled mountain, in itself forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy." (Camus, http://dbanach.com/sisyphus.htm )

Re:Coffee Is Hard by gbear605 on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:57PM (#21294590)
Alternatively, Camus thought too much and pushed boulders too little. :)

http://existentialcomics.com/comic/301

Re:Coffee Is Hard by bbojan on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:41PM (#21295319)
The French have a term for this - vie quotidienne.

Literal translation would be "everyday life", but the French term has an aspect of positivity in it that I don't think carries over to the English version.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by girzel on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:48PM (#21295354)
There's a nice phrase in Chinese: 过日子, literally "passing the days". It also has that connotation of being content with a regular life, wanting nothing special. The phrase is also extended into several other usages (thriftiness, etc), but that's the heart of it.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by yodsanklai on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:53PM (#21294566)
> The hard parts of of life are driving to work, eating properly, flossing, ....

I disagree. Those are simple rituals that makes life enjoyable too. For instance, I know that after flossing, I'm good to go to bed. Or I know when I'm driving my car that I won't get interrupted and I can wander with my thoughts.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by TeMPOraL on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:16PM (#21294743)
You say "makes life enjoyable", but I read "Stockholm syndrome". To me, it's a kind of mind hacking that I'm both unable to do and, deep inside, feel is somehow "wrong".

> I know that after flossing, I'm good to go to bed.

I know that when I'm tired and done for the day, I'm good to go to bed. Flossing is a maintenance chore that's needed only because our teeth aren't good enough (and can't be made good enough, yet) to not need it.

> I know when I'm driving my car that I won't get interrupted and I can wander with my thoughts.

If I were in that situation, I'd prefer to stop driving to work (by e.g. going remote, or relocating), but I'd also want to have an uninterrupted time for being with my thoughts anyway, perhaps explicitly scheduled and negotiated with my S.O.

Etc. Now, I'm not really criticizing you as much as I envy you - my life would be happier if I could hack my brain to see the tedium as something worthwhile, instead of doing my best to minimize its amount and impact on my life.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by flossmaster on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:23PM (#21294791)
A dental technician once asked me what I did for my job, and upon hearing my reply said, "Well, as an engineer, you really should have a better concept of how to floss than you apparently do."
Re:Coffee Is Hard by nivenhuh on Saturday October 19, 2019 @05:07AM (#21297562)
And now you’re the floss master!
Re:Coffee Is Hard by organsnyder on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:08PM (#21294678)
I've been working from home for the past year, after previously taking the bus to work downtown. It's mostly an improvement, but I do miss the commute—especially when I'd go early in the morning and get off the "wrong" stop to walk across the river, through a riverside park, back across the river, and still be the first one in the office. I really miss that.

The afternoon commute with the traffic jams, buses packed with students, noise... nope, never missed that.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by pmarreck on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:57PM (#21295022)
Life is mostly moving bits of physical material from one location to another in an endless series of queues, and programming is mostly transforming data from one form into another.

It's the bits in between those things that are the juicy fun part, though, I guess

Re:Coffee Is Hard by anonu on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:03PM (#21295751)
Kids do really throw a massive wrench into the system. There's a beauty in dealing with that. I usually get solace in the fact that there have been a few billion people before me who have had to deal with the situation!

On washing dishes: of course nobody loves doing dishes. But honestly it is zen for me. I have a method and a particular way to stack the dishwasher or dish rack. I don't really let anyone come between me and my process. Bluetooth headphones are a boon to the whole process as you can just plug in, listen to your favorite podcast, and putter around the kitchen getting dishes done!

Re:Coffee Is Hard by Cd00d on Saturday October 19, 2019 @12:00AM (#21296694)
Hi doppelganger!

In my house the chore division has me doing the kitchen after the kids are in bed. I love optimizing and getting everything in, but in the right configuration so it also all gets clean. I get annoyed when my wife starts loading the dishes early, because the space isn't managed perfectly, and I don't get my little zen-zing of 'I had a lot, and I wasn't sure it would work out, but it all fit'.

Plus, with Bluetooth, I no longer get my headphone cord caught on the dishwasher's rack! I listen to podcasts at 3x, and learn so much while getting a feeling of satisfaction for a job well done.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by ssss11 on Friday October 18, 2019 @11:53PM (#21296669)
I’ve gone through pretty much exactly the same thing! I’ve found that I can tolerate and sometimes enjoy the mundane tasks if I focus on completion. That is, like completing milestones of a project - completing the dishes for the day, the washing, the kids naps etc... who would think having kids would have this effect...
Re:Coffee Is Hard by Procrastes on Saturday October 19, 2019 @12:26AM (#21296749)
Sometimes, the only thing that gets me through a week of stressful, complicated, brainy crap, is washing the dishes, washing, folding and putting away clothes. I learned a long time ago that, for me, this is life. The rest is just shots across my bow and terrors in the night.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by bitwize on Friday October 18, 2019 @11:23PM (#21296589)
"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."

There will always be wood that won't chop itself and water that won't carry itself, m8. Enlightenment can only put things in perspective.

Re:Coffee Is Hard by ip26 on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:06PM (#21295086)
Think of it this way- the years you spent optimizing your life and removing tedious unnecessary work was preparation for becoming a parent, freeing up time you can now invest in your kid.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by LunaSea on Friday October 18, 2019 @02:47PM (#21294030)
Interesting! What kind of life optimizations did you use before?
Re:Coffee Is Hard by shantly on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:30PM (#21294388)
Having money and spending it to make other people do your boring stuff is a pretty effective life optimization. Cleaning, laundry, cooking, lawn care, car maintenance—even driving—can all be bought, so you barely have to do any of it again, if you've got money. You can—and most with means do, I think—just make almost any of this "this is what life mostly is" boring crap go away, unless you actually enjoy it more than what you might be doing instead.

Making the tedious parts of raising a kid go away is a lot more expensive than making the normal adult boring stuff go away, though. Also if you're not fairly damn rich (i.e. rich enough not to need a real job) the boring parts will be most of the time you spend with your kids by a large margin, so you'll be reluctant to outsource that even if you can afford to. That's even more true if you're not paying to have the rest of your boring stuff done by someone else ("sorry honey, maybe we can play blocks later, I'm cooking dinner because if I don't we won't, you know, have any" but then later it's bath time then story and bed and maybe you squeeze in 10min of blocks if you're lucky)

Re:Coffee Is Hard by iClaudiusX on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:33PM (#21294413)
That's interesting because otherwise tedious chores like washing dishes or cleaning can feel meditative and therapeutic after I've had my coffee.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by danharaj on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:42PM (#21294486)
The way is the dust of the way.
Re:Coffee Is Hard by k2xl on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:04PM (#21295429)
this is a wonderful comment. as a new parent i'm in the same boat.