The parent post, and your reaction to it, reminds me of the two days after my wedding.

We were rushing to get everything ready for the wedding. Picking up supplies. Moving into a house near the venue for a couple of days. Doing the wedding itself, packing up, getting home the next day. Obviously it goes without saying that the weeks leading up to the wedding were busy, just a little bit more so than every week before it.

But when I pulled the van into our driveway, 36 hours before leaving for our honeymoon, I had a blissful amount of time to just do mundane tasks. Return the kegs. Break down dozens of cardboard boxes from gifts that had arrived in our absence. Return the van to my friend's house, retrieve my car from same friend. Pack for 12 days away.

It's hard to put into words, but I just realized that I was in absolutely no hurry, because, for what felt like the only time in recent memory, I had more time than I had stuff to do. I was not pressured, or rushed, or thinking about what comes next. I had vacation in front of me, stress behind me, and limited mundane tasks in the present.

And that's how I found myself breaking down cardboard boxes with a huge smile on my face. Slowly, methodically taking them apart. Not annoyed at how many boxes there were. Not thinking about how I had to finish this, so I could do the next thing, so I could get to bed, so I could wake up for work the next day.

I don't think I've ever been so 'present' than I was in that moment.

To riff a bit on this: I've noticed in my life that I subconsciously subdivide every activity into two categories: things to accomplish, and obstacles to the former. I have not in my life ever enjoyed the second category. The crux being that by consciously re-sorting the activity from obstacle to target I get much more enjoyment out of it.

If I can convince myself that clearing the table for a new project is in itself a project it'll be cleared and washed and clean with a smile on my face. If I can't I'll be much more likely to just shove everything to the side to "solve" the obstacle and keep going.

I'm not very good at recategorising stuff on purpose yet, but it's definitely something I'm actively practicing.

Anyways I figured that's more or less the same thing as the journey-vs-destination thing worded a bit differently.

I'll end my ramble here before it gets too long.

Thanks for this. I've heard folks refer to "replacing 'shoulds' with 'coulds'". Don't say "I SHOULD do the dishes"; it's not an obligation, it's a choice. You can let the dishes stack up. That will have its own consequences, but don't treat things like obligations, treat them like choices you're making.

Thanks for sharing that; it certainly put a smile on my face :)

I read this as I watched my 2 year old daughter joyfully scrub the shower with a nylon brush. She's demanded the brush ever since she watched me use it months ago.

I think finding lovely things tedious is something most of us learn, then unlearn.

It's still new and exciting when you're 2. I don't think you're unlearning loving the tedious. Things are just not tedious at that point, but fun, novel, and optional. If she didn't want to scrub the shower, she wouldn't. But we have to do it.

Oh no, little kids absolutely love familiar, boring, repetitive things. They also like routine a lot and can get upset when given too much choice. Look at how often toddlers want to re-watch the same cartoon over and over.

Just give them a different spoon with their morning porridge and watch the drama unfold :D

Just finished bath time with new toys...I didn’t think the old, mouldy, janky beyond repair toys would be missed. Oh boy, was I wrong.

maybe we do have an instinctual aversion to disposable culture? :)

So true. So very true. I wish I could up vote this more than once.

Semi related but there was an article on here or slash about that re-watching thing. Part of it is because they "miss" so much when watching it that it is almost like "watching it again for the first time". I wish my Google fu was working because it was a neat article about young brain development and such.

Sisyphus may disagree. :)

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus

The horrifying aspect of Sisyphus is that he is doomed to do it for all eternity. Whereas we have only a limited time to cherish or despise every carpet vacuumed until we die. I believe that we transcend the mundane every time we embrace it and truly live it instead of wishing desperately to be doing something else.

I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain. One always finds one's burden again. But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He too concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night-filled mountain, in itself, forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

Albert Camus

Hah. I only ever encountered the last sentence of that quote and I thought it was an imperative.

Yup, every time I have some horrible/menial/stressful task to complete, I think "I appreciate the opportunity to even experience this moment and witness the dream of existence". I mean, maybe not with that wording, but that approximate sentiment of, I get to exist and experience all that entails, and I can appreciate it even if is "not enjoyable" at that moment. Of course that only really works for things that aren't truly terrible, but I think in general it's a good perspective to take!

If I was Sisyphus and got the boulder to the top, I would push it back down myself.

I'm going to die eventually, so is it futile to exercise everyday, to learn, to try and be a better person? I don't think so, but all of those things are journeys that never end and require many mundane tasks.

> I'm going to die eventually, so is it futile to exercise everyday, to learn, to try and be a better person?

Many repetitive activities end up having a practical purpose: as someone who does strength training I know about sets and reps and lifting heavy things. But that gives me strength for everyday things.

But the point of giving Sisyphus that task is precisely because it is pointless. Sisyphus isn't doing anything with his existence except that task.

> If I was Sisyphus and got the boulder to the top, I would push it back down myself.

I'm really loving this quote, definitely using it at some point.

In all fairness I think I first heard it here.

https://youtu.be/7qNGWjDzxpQ

I like the "Discipline is Freedom" on that guy's t-shirt. Its arguable, but its deep.

The person talking in the video is Jocko Willink [1]. He's written quite a few books, one of which is entitled "Discipline Equals Freedom: Field Manual"[2]. His whole concept is that increasing your discipline leads to more freedom.

How can one be free when they are a slave to their discipline? A great example is time, everyone wants more of it. The way to get more time is to not waste time. Being discipline with ones time is how not to waste it.

I'm far from the most disciplined person (practicing discipline is pushing the rock), but in the ~2 years since I really put more discipline in place it has changed me as a person. Highly recommended.

[1] He has podcasts, and many books. I suggest listening to Tim Ferris when Jocko was on as an intro.

[2] https://www.amazon.com/Discipline-Equals-Freedom-Field-Manua...

One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

I wonder if sadistic Zeus would sometimes not give him a boulder to push for a day or two.

I think the catch there is that Zeus doesn't imagine Sisyphus happy.

The double catch is that neither Zeus's nor Sisyphus's state of mind matter, skipping a day or two is detrimental to both the good and the bad interpretation. If Sisyphus is unhappy pushing a rock every day (the first level interpretation) taking it away gives false hope and fosters doubt. If Sisyphus becomes happy or fulfilled pushing the rock, taking it away temporarily removes that satisfaction and again leads to doubt.

In other words, arbitrary and random work, putting someone in an uncertain and unpredictable situation is worse than constant and well-defined work.

Your reference is outdated :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7E-ttJpJ7Q

"The only advice I have is, is that give you have to do some things anyway, you might as well find the joy in them and do them with a smile"

Changing a nappy bleary eyed at 4 am with an inconsolable screaming infant I recalled this advice from my friend with three kids. I had a sort of epiphany realizing that I could control me reaction and find joy in pretty much anything if I accept that it just has to be done.

Finally, it comes down to a decision when I am not enjoying something: i) Do I have to do this? (can I change the circumstances, or not do it) ii) if yes, be creative and enjoy it.

Surprisingly, works a lot of the time. The times this reasoning fails is when the task imposed on me is by other people that to my judgement have done it out of laziness, incompetence or exploitation.

Are we using the same definition of "tedious"? This is what I get:

Tedious: too long, slow, or dull; tiresome or monotonous.

"Too" long as in "longer than I'd like." Tiresome. Monotonous. Those sound like the opposite of enjoying the ride to me!

The point is you learn to appreciate the substance of everyday life and it ceases to feel tedious. Perhaps mundanity would have been a better word. This idea, by the way, is called "mindfulness" and is the essence of Buddhism.

I think English translation of Buddhism could use some more distinct words, because "mindfulness" is also a part of "insight meditation", and - as far as I understand - these concepts are rather different from each other.

Mind to explain how these concepts are rather different?

The act itself is tedious, if that's all you focus on. Spending time together, enjoying the small little games we play, and the touches on the arm and dumb jokes that happen while we're doing something tedious, are some of the best memories. When you focus on the nothing that's happening, it's tedium. When you focus on everything around it and the break from the chaos of the rest of your day, it's still tedious, but it's also peaceful.

It's tangential to the discussion but I find it surprising and slightly upsetting the fact that people downvote someone who basically quotes the definition of a word as-it-is, verbatim. It happens quite often on hacker news.

Are the folks here denying definitions and they make up their world instead and get upset when they encounter reality, or why does this downvoting happen? I'd really like to know.

Not a downvoter of GP and have no opinion of this particular provision of a definition.

However, “quot[ing] the definition” in this case is citing a denotative facet of the word. There is also nuanced and idiomatic usage that is indicated in connotative meaning.

Pointing to denotative meanings when connotation is more contextually relevant is often considered combative and may garner downvotes.

It takes as long as it takes, how long you'd like it to take is a thought you can change. If you change your thought to want it to take as long as it actually takes, it stops being tedious?

There are many meanings, of which you have described two.

> watching them vacuum up the rugs and chase the cat with the broom

I find your definition of "tedious" to be at odds with your enjoyment of these experiences - maybe "tedious" is not the right word here?

>>that when people talked about enjoying the ride, that's what they were talking about - the tedious stuff

It sounds like a rationalization to me.

So what?

"Oh this person rationalized happiness out of a miserable life, instead of just being miserable. Somehow, that's bad and nobody should bother doing that" .. ?

This. That said, there's some tedious things that are enjoyable when done occasionally.

"tedious" and "enjoyable" are not inherent properties of things or events, they're states of the observer.

Things aren't tedious, you the observer put the label 'tedious' on them and then yearn to get away from them.

Since you are actually vacuuming and not putting it off or paying someone else to do it, this is unhelpful labelling which only serves to make you less happy. You may as well consider it a new instance of vacuuming never seen before and look for the differences and seek to enjoy it, as considering it the same vacuuming event as last time copy-pasted and look for the similarities and then call them boring. If you have to pass through it either way, why pick the interpretation which makes you feel worse?

Like "you never step in the same river twice" because the water changes, and you change, you never vacuum the same room twice.

“If you’re bored then you’re boring”