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Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by wpietri on Thursday November 01, 2018 @05:04PM (#18358423)
Tangent: Are there other people here who just refuse to sign up for any of these programs?

I have family members who are super into frequent flyer programs, credit card points, etc, etc. But I don't like the cognitive load they introduce, and I don't like having to figure out how much I'm being manipulated in any given interaction.

I get that I'm missing out on goodies, but they're paying for those goodies somehow, so I figure I'm doing ok once I account for the cost of my time and for situations where they'd get me to pay more.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by arebop on Thursday November 01, 2018 @05:17PM (#18358552)
Also: does anyone see these programs and think wow, this airline UX is so awful I want to show them my loyalty so that eventually they'll stop trying so hard to make me unhappy?

I'm pretty convinced this all boils down to a sort of low-grade white collar corruption: people who travel a lot for business sometimes can get away with favoring one airline over another, where this decision costs the shareholders a little bit but only the employee who's traveling will notice. Then it makes perfect sense: the employee directs a little extra money from the treasury to the airline, the airline provides a kickback to the employee in the form of a little comfort or attention, and that explains the whole miles phenomenon.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by azernik on Thursday November 01, 2018 @11:42PM (#18360547)
Yup! The dead giveaway - airline miles follow the passenger, not the purchaser.

My mom used to travel constantly for a Sales Engineer job, and in her telling the opportunity to arrange your air travel for optimal frequent flyer miles was an acknowledged piece of compensation for the hellish travel schedule.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by technofiend on Thursday November 01, 2018 @05:38PM (#18358714)
>I'm pretty convinced this all boils down to a sort of low-grade white collar corruption: people who travel a lot for business sometimes can get away with favoring one airline over another,

I suppose it depends on the business but at my Fortune 50 we're required to use "lowest logical airfare". You can force a choice of Southwest over United by choosing one airport over another, and there's enough wiggle room to let you fly at your preferred times but overall it's designed to prevent gaming and escalates things for review if you try.

But unless you're a highly placed executive no one travels on the company dime often enough to bother with air miles anyway; airlines require far too much travel for even the bottom-most loyalty tier.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by wenc on Thursday November 01, 2018 @10:24PM (#18360236)
> But unless you're a highly placed executive no one travels on the company dime often enough to bother with air miles anyway

This isn't really a true statement. Marketing and enterprise sales folks travel a lot on the company dime. I'm on the engineering and consulting staff in my company, and I travel a decent amount, mostly domestic. Most of our engineers do frequent on-sites. One might not be able to get status, but the air miles definitely add up. I've been able to get more than a few free flights and upgrades. I would say it's worth bothering about.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by technofiend on Friday November 02, 2018 @09:13AM (#18362738)
> Marketing and enterprise sales folks travel a lot on the company dime

Yes, my bad. I just meant at my employer; we've invested heavily in telepresence, so only the bigwigs here get to travel with any regularity. And I was really trying to say without regular travel you won't end up with a meaningful status. For example United has a raft of tiers so unless you're [1] 1K or Global Services [2] you're literally not at the front of the queue for anything. Even their "Group 1" / "Group 2" boarding system meant to speed things up has a giant asterisk that reads "except 1K/GS, they go before anyone else."

[1] I'm using the colloquial "you" here to really mean "one" which sounds very stiff and formal to me. I don't literally mean you.

[2] https://thepointsguy.com/2017/08/united-global-services-in-2...

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by wenc on Friday November 02, 2018 @09:30AM (#18362845)
I understand now. My apologies for misunderstanding. Thank you for clarifying.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by jstanley on Friday November 02, 2018 @05:43AM (#18361735)
> This isn't really a true statement.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about the company he works at, not the company you work at.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by wenc on Friday November 02, 2018 @09:03AM (#18362675)
Fair enough. I read that as a generalized statement. My bad.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by kenneth on Thursday November 01, 2018 @05:53PM (#18358827)
Not necessarily. Two round trip in economy to Asia in a year will get you bottom tier status. Quarterly trips in business (not uncommon if you work at some big company) would get you top-tier status.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by presto8 on Friday November 02, 2018 @03:58PM (#18366213)
Two RT trips to Asia might barely meet the minimum tier for miles, but most (all?) airlines now have a minimum in dollars spent, as well. For example, for the first status level, United requires 25,000 miles and $3000 spent with United (this means code-share partner airline flights don't count).

One year, I flew RT SFO-Singapore (16,000 miles RT) and SFO-Tel-Aviv (10,200 miles RT). Due to getting a really good deal on economy tickets, those two tickets were less than $3,000 total and thus I didn't get even the most basic status level.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by kenneth on Friday November 02, 2018 @04:33PM (#18366478)
Not all airlines have spend requirements. (Alaska doesn't, and neither do most foreign programs). You can waive United spend requirement by using their credit card, too. Also, Star Alliance partner flights do earn PQDs on United as long as you fly on a United ticket (# starting in 016).

I have quite a few friends who fly primarily United but credit flights to other partner airlines where the requirements aren't as high. Aegean used to be a very popular way to easily get Star Alliance Gold status, and you were able to earn it purely by flying United.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by presto8 on Saturday November 03, 2018 @10:35AM (#18370354)
Yes, you're right on Alaska, although since they don't fly internationally, it's much harder to rack up the miles with 2 trips (as parent was suggesting). Incidentally, Alaska is my favorite carrier for many reasons, but only for domestic flights.

As for spending with the credit card, unfortunately that isn't an option for me since my company pays for many of my tickets. And they will purchase the cheapest ticket, which often means buying it on the partner airline (e.g. Lufthansa plane but cheaper if booked as an Air Canada).

Thanks for the tip on Aegean. I checked it out and looks like 24,000 miles on partner airlines without any other restrictions to get Star Alliance Silver! Looks like a winner!

Status programs are really in a sad state on airlines. They are supposed to be a reward to customers but many times end up feeling punitive. For the airlines like United that have the minimum dollars spent requirement, I wish they would just make that the sole criterion, which would at least simply things!

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by jki275 on Friday November 02, 2018 @11:34AM (#18363748)
On what airline?

2 Asia trips won't even meet the minimum number of flights, let alone qualify you for any status.

4 trips on Star Alliance from the US to Asia might get you the lowest status, which does essentially nothing for you. You probably would need another 8 trips to make it to Gold which is where it actually means something.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by kenneth on Friday November 02, 2018 @04:37PM (#18366513)
Your math is way off. Did you check the distance on a map? SFO-HKG 2x will earn you 27k miles [1].

Most programs have their status levels at 25k miles for lowest and 100k for highest. So, ignoring spend, 2 round-trips to HKG will earn you Silver status on United.

4 trips in business class (double miles) will earn you 110k miles, enough for 1K status.

[1]: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SFO-HKG-SFO;SFO-HKG-SFO

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by ryanwaggoner on Thursday November 01, 2018 @07:03PM (#18359267)
What? There’s a whole cottage industry of helping business travelers accumulate miles and award tiers. And the vast majority of heavy business travelers are just rank and file employees. It’s definitely not only highly placed executives.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by technofiend on Friday November 02, 2018 @11:04AM (#18363515)
I'm just talking about where I work; we've heavily invested in telepresence, to the point most everyone has a desk phone with a camera, a camera attached to their pc or both plus dedicated telepresence rooms integrated into outlook's meeting calendar. Almost every conference call is now video with the exception of really large calls like incident management.

I had 3 trips from North America to South America in the space of a year for recruiting, hiring and training and it nudged me into United's bottom tier, Silver. One more trip might have pushed me into Gold. Considering there's three tiers above that when you include 1K and Global Services and you can see other than possibly boarding in Group 2 there's not much point in the frequent flyer program. I requested upgrade on a flight from SFO to IAH recently just to see what would happen. I was something like number 58 on a 70+ person list. Again - all just anecdata.

Could someone jumpstart the process by getting some status tier via credit card? No doubt. Can they push it further using mileage runs? Of course! There's a flyertalk forum dedicated to it. But airlines are on to those shenanigans and the days of mileage running yourself into top tier status without a great deal of effort including getting one's employer to book flights that aren't the bottom-most fare classes as those yield the least in rewards. In fact there is at least one fare class (N) that gives no mileage or points at all.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by zentiggr on Friday November 02, 2018 @10:05AM (#18363087)
Just look at Kenny Tarmac :)
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by com2kid on Thursday November 01, 2018 @09:07PM (#18359937)
> But unless you're a highly placed executive no one travels on the company dime often enough to bother with air miles anyway; airlines require far too much travel for even the bottom-most loyalty tier.

People working in hardware manufacturing do!

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by rconti on Thursday November 01, 2018 @07:38PM (#18359472)
I was able to book myself a free business class trip to Europe on miles from flying just a couple of times a year, coach, non-flex fares, on the company dime, as a working schlub. I know plenty of folks who fly business class to China half a dozen or a dozen times a year and have more upgrades than they could ever possibly use. Hardly executives.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by taneq on Friday November 02, 2018 @07:08AM (#18362121)
You get the same thing from parts suppliers. I regularly get emails announcing "spend $2000 with us in the next month and receive a FREE GIFT (rc helicopter / iPad / swanky wallet / DVD player / other nice thing)". It seems pretty blatant bribery to get employees (who probably don't care much either way where their gear comes from) to buy from one supplier over another.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by jandrese on Friday November 02, 2018 @11:15AM (#18363595)
That seems like an incredibly petty policy to me. You can't chose the direct flight that's $20 more expensive over the 2 layover flight at the bottom of the price list that tacks an additional 6 hours on the trip? Your charged hours would totally destroy that savings.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by Scoundreller on Thursday November 01, 2018 @05:59PM (#18358868)
It can usually work out to a 3-6% return if you don’t think too much and just buy gift cards with the miles.

It’ll be hard to earn enough on domestic flights, but I eeck out a $50 gift card every couple years for my annual trans-Atlantic flights.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by Fomite on Thursday November 01, 2018 @11:57PM (#18360601)
The person I knew with the most miles and status was a middling-level admissions counselor for a university.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by totoglazer on Thursday November 01, 2018 @05:26PM (#18358632)
That's literally the entire business model...
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by Scoundreller on Thursday November 01, 2018 @05:56PM (#18358848)
That and devaluation.

Don’t forget the “Air Canada” model of IPOing your frequent flyer program, nearly bankrupting it, and then buying it back for a fraction.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by nerdponx on Thursday November 01, 2018 @11:54PM (#18360592)
Frequent business travel kind of sucks. A lot of employers are willing to look the other way as long as it keeps their people happy. Especially in fields like sales with high turnover.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by throwawaycanada on Thursday November 01, 2018 @07:08PM (#18359292)
This is exactly what it is. Same for hotels.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by atourgates on Thursday November 01, 2018 @07:07PM (#18359291)
There's something about air travel that makes it a uniquely terrible experience and drives me to participate in these programs.

There is nothing I do in my life regularly where I'm more restricted, or more closely related to a rigid caste system than air travel.

Every time you take a flight, for somewhere between 3 and 20 hours, you're told exactly where to stand, where to sit, what you can and can't wear, what you can and can't carry.

Almost everything about frequent flyer status is about making these limitations slightly less terrible. You're still going to be stuck in a shitty seat for several hours, but your seat might have slightly more legroom. You're still told when you can get on the plane, but you'll be at the front of the line. You still have to go through an invasive security process, but you'll go quicker, and it'll be slightly less invasive.

Most of these are stupid little things (and there are other much more objectively valuable perks, like waived change fees, improved options in the event of cancellations or delays, free checked baggage and the like), but in the artificial, restrictive and status-driven world of air travel, they're so nice to have.

All that said, I still think Southwest is the best domestic airline to travel and not be treated like a complete peon, assuming you don't fly enough to earn status with a traditional carrier.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by kirse on Friday November 02, 2018 @12:20AM (#18360674)
Every time you take a flight, for somewhere between 3 and 20 hours, you're told exactly where to stand, where to sit, what you can and can't wear, what you can and can't carry.

On the other hand, it no longer takes months to travel West and half your family generally doesn't die of dysentery on the way there.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by sametmax on Friday November 02, 2018 @05:49AM (#18361760)
Yes but you were not expected to travel.

Most people were merely moving from house to house, sometime town to town. It was not frequent, and everybody knew it would take time so there was not that much time pressure.

Today, a lot of people are expected to be able to travel hundreds of miles, regularly, in short period of times, with not that much rest between those times, and be on schedule. Schedule that is precise to a few hours.

Appart from nomads and a few merchants (again traveling a way slower pace, frequency and lower expectations), most people just stayed put.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by _emacsomancer_ on Friday November 02, 2018 @04:16AM (#18361380)
> On the other hand, it no longer takes months to travel West and half your family generally doesn't die of dysentery on the way there.

And yet the state of modern air travel is such that it's a still a toss-up which is worse.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by valleyer on Friday November 02, 2018 @01:08AM (#18360840)
I believe car travel provides that same benefit without the dehumanization.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by sooheon on Friday November 02, 2018 @03:50AM (#18361289)
You for a cross continental trip you lose days of your life confined to the interior of your car. I'd rather suck it up for a few hours and kick my feet up at the destination.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by logfromblammo on Friday November 02, 2018 @11:25AM (#18363676)
You are only confined when the car is at speed. There are ample opportunities to stop, exit, walk around freely, relieve yourself in a full-sized, accessible bathroom, buy food and drink at normal market prices, and even visit points of interest. Pets tend to be more comfortable, and you don't require a specific carrier to travel with them. Seats recline to a comfortable angle, and there is usually more legroom in a car.

While you are moving, the speeds are far lower--70 mph rather than 350-550 knots. The safety factor is lower; you're more likely to die in a car wreck than a plane wreck per distance unit.

But there's also no security queue or baggage check for a road trip. There's no airport ground transportation. There is a form of check-in for seat determination, but online and other early check-ins are specifically disallowed by the "shotgun rules". You save a fixed amount of time per trip with car travel, while airliners save time based on total trip distance.

So for me, airline travel beats car travel only beyond a certain distance threshold, which more or less directly equates to the travel time. I now set my threshold at two days. If I can't drive there within two travel days, I fly, or just don't go. Which means I'm now potentially adding hotel room charges to mileage expenses. That's about a 1000 mile radius for "easy" driving days and 1600 miles for "hard" driving days, which require relief drivers.

This is directly driven by my perceived worsening of the air travel experience. Sorting the customers out into service tiers based on how much they spend does not encourage me to spend more or to be loyal to a specific airline. It encourages me to pursue alternatives to the bad service that I know I will get.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by wpietri on Friday November 02, 2018 @12:06AM (#18360628)
This makes sense, but my reaction is the exact opposite. If they're going to structure it to be shitty so I do what they want, then I'm for damned sure not going to do what they want.

One of my big life rules is "don't feed pigeons." I mean it metaphorically, of course. Pigeons are machines for turning food into pigeon shit and more pigeons, and I'm not a big fan of either. A clearer version is something like, "don't reward something creating a problem in a way that deepens the problem."

So you've persuaded me that I should never join one of these things.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by bdhess on Friday November 02, 2018 @12:42AM (#18360749)
> If they're going to structure it to be shitty so I do what they want

They've structured it to be shitty because that's what the market wants: the lowest cost product. When I fly the major carriers, I often still see the "premium economy" seats available for purchase at check-in. Those cost an extra $50-100 to get extra legroom, early boarding, etc. These are the same perks that they provide for free to their entry-level frequent fliers.

It turns out that most people just aren't willing to pay 10-20% extra for a better experience. They'd rather buy the cheapest ticket, suck it up for a couple hours, and grouse about how bad air travel is afterwards.

By not joining a frequent flyer program, you're not stymieing them or anything. Non-loyalty customers looking for the lowest price is their bread and butter for filling up the back half of the plane. The service will be perfunctory and the experience will be marginal, because that's what most people are willing to pay for.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by closetohome on Friday November 02, 2018 @01:01PM (#18364690)
> They'd rather buy the cheapest ticket, suck it up for a couple hours, and grouse about how bad air travel is afterwards.

Truer words were never spoken. I had to book a Spirit flight home unexpectedly, and while I'd heard nothing but bad things about them, I found it a perfectly acceptable experience. Of course they charge for everything -- the ticket was $100 cheaper than United. Where do people think that discount comes from?

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by velcrovan on Friday November 02, 2018 @09:44AM (#18362937)
> They've structured it to be shitty because that's what the market wants

Kind of. It's what the current market wants. But through anticompetitive mergers and deregulation, the airlines have lobbied and gamed the laws to create a market tilted heavily towards their own preferences, that the public overwhelmingly hates.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by jchanimal on Friday November 02, 2018 @09:18AM (#18362768)
Same. This is also why I avoid credit cards.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by velcrovan on Friday November 02, 2018 @09:46AM (#18362953)
Same, this is why I'm an Amish subsistence farmer.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by logfromblammo on Friday November 02, 2018 @11:29AM (#18363703)
Please do a Show HN for your networked home computer powered by compressed air.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by LeftTurnSignal on Friday November 02, 2018 @12:17PM (#18364209)
/not related to this thread, but interesting experience ahead:

The Amish around me were allowed to have electricity, but it could not be inside the house.

So they built a porch, turned it into a greenhouse looking room, and put all their electronics out on it. I have seen a refrigerator, laptop, and even a TV on their porch.

They also had electricity doing some stuff in their barn. I think it was mainly lights but I never went in there, just saw lights on 24/7. They milked the cows by hand (so I was told), plowed the fields with horses (unless they were harassing a local farmer to use their tractor and equipment), and lived like the textbook amish family.

They came from Pennsylvania right before buying the farmland. So I have no idea if they came from a particular sect that allows that, or what. I just know from talking with them (being neighbors and all), they were allowed to have certain stuff, just not allowed to have it in specific places.

I had several amish neighbors like this too. Nice people though except when they assumed they could use your farming equipment without asking and would get extremely defensive if you said no. That was just the fathers though. The wives and children were really great.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by sokoloff on Thursday November 01, 2018 @09:20PM (#18359987)
I like basic Southwest but would also include JetBlue in that set. Neither comes close to having status on Delta, though.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by Fomite on Thursday November 01, 2018 @11:58PM (#18360603)
Southwest, JetBlue or Alaska.

But yeah, status, PreCheck, Clear, etc. are all "Can I remove this friction in my life?"

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by ndrr on Friday November 02, 2018 @01:31PM (#18364958)
But with southwest you have the cattle drive to get on the plane and the need to check-in (ASAP!) 24 hours before the flight to get a good spot in the queue. I check southwest when planning trips because of other benefits, but I don't feel less stressed with Southwest.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by dvtrn on Thursday November 01, 2018 @05:06PM (#18358442)
Tangent: Are there other people here who just refuse to sign up for any of these programs?

Right here. I was asked the other day if I had a rewards number at 7/11 and if I wanted to sign up for one, if I was "really sure" after I said no twice. 7/11. I buy coffee there getting off the train. It's a convenience store. This....is getting ridiculous IMO. Amazon is getting their tentacles wrapped around so much (mild sarc), but the retail experience out in the world lately is just as awful.

I'm either bothered endlessly to "hey go get one more of those things it's only 2/$4" when I only want one, I'm asked to sign up for a rewards program, or calling support means I'm hounded for a "customer feedback survey" when all I wanted was a dang cup of coffee.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by sjg007 on Thursday November 01, 2018 @08:31PM (#18359786)
Rewards programs are basically the buy 9 coffees get the 10th free program. Grocery stores do gas rewards to favor certain purchases (presumably the more profitable ones or the ones they need to move) in lieu of discounting and then they also get to track everything you buy!
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by heurist on Thursday November 01, 2018 @09:04PM (#18359926)
Loyalty programs do a bit more than the conventional punch card as they also track everything they can about you.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by wlll on Thursday November 01, 2018 @09:08PM (#18359940)
I signed up for the BA frequent flyer program and "cognitive load" really didn't ring true for me.

Basically, I add my frequent flier number to the booking form online and that's it. When I hit Bronze (it's a couple of long flights or so) I don't need to do anything, I just get to skip the queue at checkin and (airport depending) security.

There's no sales, no emails, no upsell, my (travelling) life is just better after a couple of flights.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by Fomite on Friday November 02, 2018 @12:00AM (#18360610)
It's especially not cognitive-load building if you live at a hub (or a place with only one carrier).

Live in Pullman, WA? You're flying Alaska anyway. Salt Lake City, UT? Get yourself a Delta number.

The tricky places are where there are lots of competing carriers. San Francisco with it's...pseudo-hubness for a number of airlines, Washington DC, etc.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by wlll on Friday November 02, 2018 @05:20AM (#18361623)
Near Manchester, UK. Most of the flights I get are to the US, so BA or AA and I can use my BA number on both airlines.

That said, when I need to get a flight somewhere else and there's no BA or AA flight convenient I just get the flight I want to get and don't sweat the loss of status building.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by kenneth on Friday November 02, 2018 @04:48PM (#18366609)
SF is definitely a hub with about 50% market share to United. It's also a hub for the smaller Alaska (mostly via their acquisition of SFO-based Virgin America).

As a SFO-based frequent flyer, if you fly to numerous destination (instead of doing the same commute each trip), your choices are likely: fly United or take an extra connection.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by Fomite on Saturday November 03, 2018 @04:30AM (#18369265)
SFO is weird, because it's a United hub, but there's just enough competition from Alaska nee Virgina America and Southwest that I could see being tempted off United.

Unlike say, Denver or Salt Lake for United and Delta respectively.

I'd also put SEA in this category, especially with Alaska and Delta no longer playing nice in the sandbox.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by GordonS on Friday November 02, 2018 @03:24AM (#18361203)
Try to actually use your points on a flight or upgrade and you'll see problems - it can be extremely difficult to find availability, even if you are prepared to book a year in advance, and the BA tools for searching are buggy as hell.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by wlll on Friday November 02, 2018 @05:18AM (#18361619)
I guess I just treat Airmiles/Avios as irellevant compared to the actual benefits which are skipping queues/extra bag if I need it/lounge access at silver.

Maybe one day I'll book a flight with Avios, and when I do I'll have enough for sure, but I don't treat them like a perk.

Agree with the BA tools/site being terrible, it seems to be pretty consistent that this is the case across airlines.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by GordonS on Friday November 02, 2018 @06:47AM (#18362011)
The lounges are the main benefit for me - especially at LHR where there is hardly any seating in the main concourse!

Another thing though about Avios is BA's constant errorsion of benefits. Every year or so they send out an email saying 'we asked our customers and they said they wanted more choice', followed by saying they're removing free drinks and meals, reducing the hours hot food is available in lounges etc. I'd respect these decisions much more if they were honest and said 'our shareholders want us to cut costs!

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by kenneth on Friday November 02, 2018 @04:52PM (#18366634)
Avios is extremely useful for getting cheap domestic flights last minute. SFO-LAX day of departure starts at $180, but costs 7,500 Avios only. PUS-KIX or HKG-TPE cost a measly 4,500 Avios. They can be a real life-saver.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by stiglitz on Thursday November 01, 2018 @08:55PM (#18359896)
I refuse all such games. It’s like Thoreau said: you judge your wealth based on what you can afford not to worry about. It means giving up money, but on principle these “points” are disgusting to me. Especially credit cards, which are also frequently rationalized based on their security benefits over debit cards- security benefits which IMO there is no reason debit cards shouldn’t also have.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by uiri on Thursday November 01, 2018 @11:16PM (#18360440)
The essential difference is in the name! A debit card creates a debit from your account. It is your money that is used to complete the transaction. A credit card creates a credit to a revolving loan account. It is the bank's money that is used to complete the transaction (and you repay the bank separately). The bank cares a hell of a lot more about its money than it does about your money. Sure, regulations come into play as well but they're not enough to bridge that essential difference.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by wpietri on Friday November 02, 2018 @12:09AM (#18360636)
For what it's worth, I split the difference and use a charge card. The American Express card I have needs to be paid off at the end of every month. I pay them an annual fee, and in return for that plus credit card fees, they try to keep me happy. They have been very good for me with things like dubious charges and bad vendors.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by stiglitz on Friday November 02, 2018 @12:38AM (#18360738)
Ultimately we are talking about a feature whereby someone steals my card and buys something, and then I contest the purchase and don’t have to pay for it. So abstractly, is there really a difference?

Edit- Is the crucial difference that the vendor ends up losing the money rather than the bank in the case of credit cards?

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by harshreality on Thursday November 01, 2018 @05:58PM (#18358859)
Economics. If you only view flights as getting from point A to point B, then the rewards programs aren't worth it. For some people, there's more at stake than getting from point A to point B... eventually.

Comfort and less time wasted are very valuable for the wealthy (in terms of $ they're willing to spend without monetary return, since it ends up being a smaller percentage of their disposable income).

For business travellers, it's efficiency, fewer missed meetings, and psychological comfort, allowing maximum focus on business concerns.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by Fomite on Friday November 02, 2018 @12:01AM (#18360614)
Yeah, traveling for business, it's about reducing cognitive load.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by kenneth on Thursday November 01, 2018 @05:41PM (#18358738)
You're giving up a 5%+ (minimum) return on your money spent by declining to participate. For me the return is closer to 20–30%. Declining to participate has a non-trivial opportunity cost.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by babygoat on Thursday November 01, 2018 @05:48PM (#18358792)
It's not free to participate.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by hueving on Thursday November 01, 2018 @06:05PM (#18358894)
It's only like 5 minutes of your time (if that), unless you have difficulties following basic account sign up processes on a website.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by Godel_unicode on Thursday November 01, 2018 @06:39PM (#18359109)
And you get that time back with interest in how easy it makes the check-in process.

Push notification 24hrs in advance, check in and automatically download boarding pass.

Phone has your boarding pass at the airport, as well as push notifications for gate changes.

Phone has the baggage carousel information and terminal maps with food and restrooms called out.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by ghostly_s on Thursday November 01, 2018 @07:40PM (#18359482)
Yeah....I get all that on all but the cheapest of discount airlines just by downloading their apps. This is not a "loyalty perk".
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by Godel_unicode on Thursday November 01, 2018 @08:08PM (#18359642)
Why would you have the app and not sign up for the program?? It's no extra work, and it's not like you're avoiding being tracked. Especially with an airline.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by closetohome on Friday November 02, 2018 @01:08PM (#18364757)
That's a totally different game. Of course I have individual airline accounts, and of course I accumulate those points. Hell, half the time the points and website account are the same thing now.

But that's peanuts and will never add up to much because I only fly a few times a year and it's usually on different airlines. The real miles game is accumulating points from other purchases, and churning those into free travel and such. Both generating and redeeming points in those volumes is a lot of work -- I've done it and eventually decided it wasn't worth my time.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by ghostly_s on Friday November 02, 2018 @01:47PM (#18365100)
Because I just fly with whomever is cheaper/more convenient flight time. I don't fly often enough to get anything useful out of these rewards programs, and I delete the airline's app as soon as my trip is done; the cognitive overhead of creating yet-another-login and tracking these points with a half-dozen different airlines just so I might or might not get some sort of reward in five years is in no way an appealing value prop to me.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by Scoundreller on Thursday November 01, 2018 @06:11PM (#18358940)
Though I have seen airlines start offering 0 miles or a fraction of miles on the cheapest seats unless you pay more.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by closetohome on Friday November 02, 2018 @01:09PM (#18364762)
"Pay $20 to double your bonus miles!" is the airline equivalent of buying in-game currency.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by wpietri on Friday November 02, 2018 @12:11AM (#18360642)
Except that as this person explains, it's a huge time suck to do well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18359808
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by nicolas_t on Friday November 02, 2018 @03:02AM (#18361141)
Well there's different levels to it. He went full bore and did a lot of first class travel (which is harder to get due to low availability). If you just take a couple of hours getting familiarized with the different frequent traveler miles program and chose the right one for your travel pattern, plus make sure to get a credit card with a decent mile accumulation rate, you can already get a couple of business class long haul flights out of it.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by Spooky23 on Thursday November 01, 2018 @05:15PM (#18358518)
I avoid store programs, but for travel it’s a no brainer.

Ditto for credit cards. Given the model of credit cards, it doesn’t make sense to leave money on the table. If you shop at Amazon or Target, leaving 5% of you business on the table doesn’t make sense.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by stephen_g on Friday November 02, 2018 @02:17AM (#18361029)
I get the sentiment, but for air travel it's totally worth it for me at least. I travel a fair bit at work, and we just use one main airline (and by extension, alliance) by default. The cognitive load is just giving them an eight digit number when we book - that's literally it. And in return I get extra baggage allowance, lounge access with free food, more choice of seat selection, etc. Sure, if you don't do enough travel or have to use multiple different airlines it doesn't make sense, but for a lot of people it really does.

For me, if I just refused to participate then I would do the same flying with the same airline and just wouldn't get any of the free benefits... That's before free flights and upgrades that I can then purchase with the points.

So it makes a lot of sense then to get a credit card that earns extra points into the same account for purchases I would have made anyway. I'm now starting to think about my next trip, which will be business class to five countries in Europe (from Australia). Would cost about $10-15K in airfares (which I would never have paid myself) but I'll have to pay probably about a grand in taxes and most of the points I've gathered over about two years of work travel and credit card purchases I would have done anyway.

At the end of the day, the cost of this is already baked into the services, so you're paying for it whether you participate or not!

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by tehwebguy on Thursday November 01, 2018 @08:35PM (#18359808)
Yeah, that was me before. Then I got super into it and earned a ton of miles, and used them on some some really cool experiences. Like 25+ int'l business class flights, 6 int'l first class and some more. UK x 3, Finland, Middle East, Japan x 2, Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia over a few years.

Did what would have cost like $300k in flights and hotels for maybe a few grand across 5 vacations and still have like a million miles left over.

It was a huge time suck though, keeping up with blogs, subreddits, secret Slack groups etc. Booking the really outrageous first class flights is hard to do unless you are constantly checking availability and can take a vacation like anytime you want.

Would do again, a little too busy to now though.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by ajmurmann on Friday November 02, 2018 @04:24AM (#18361408)
What's the best starting point in your opinion to get "into it"?
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by wlll on Friday November 02, 2018 @05:28AM (#18361659)
I read somewhere that (maybe just one?) airlines had tightened up the rules around this sort of thing and it's much harder to do now, but maybe I misread…
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by kccqzy on Friday November 02, 2018 @04:55AM (#18361525)
/r/churning and /r/awardtravel
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by astura on Thursday November 01, 2018 @05:25PM (#18358618)
Plenty of people. My grandma used to stay at the same hotel every week, didn't want the loyality program, never signed up for the credit card.

Extra cognitive load is real.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by Waterluvian on Thursday November 01, 2018 @08:31PM (#18359790)
I'm the same. I've skipped out on maybe a dozen flights of points. I don't have an account. I just don't want to be bothered. I have plenty of wealth and don't need your point system.

I extend this everywhere. I don't have enough a single points card anywhere.

The only thing I use is Canadian Tire money because it's fun and stupid but they're even replacing that with a stupid points card.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by sbr464 on Thursday November 01, 2018 @10:19PM (#18360212)
This is my logic. I don’t feel like wasting my single life reading blogs and watching YouTube videos about points/benefits. Would much rather buy out directly. I also value not dealing with the frustrations/loopholes/asterisks that come with these programs.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by jobigoud on Friday November 02, 2018 @05:17AM (#18361616)
There seems to be two different discussions going in this thread. Frequent-flyer programs don't require to do any of reading blogs, watching YouTube or whatever. You just input your number at booking time (or later if you forgot or someone else booked for you). That's literally all there is to it. After a number of flights this gives you extra baggage allowance and line skipping and preferred treatment.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by drdeadringer on Friday November 02, 2018 @10:47AM (#18363383)
> Are there other people here who just refuse to sign up for any of these programs?

I don't bother with the rewards programs I'd hardly use or with rewards programs which have "burned" me in the past.

Example 1: If I don't go to your movie theatre chain very often, I'm not signing up for your "CineGreat Program" or whatever you call yours this year. I'm also not a Frequent Flyer -- and airlines buy and sell each other in and out of bankruptcy so often that who knows that rats nest of points anyway on top of that. But the grocery store I shop at regularly down the street? Sure thing sign me up.

Example 2: AAA hotel discounts might be nice, but when you can't help me on the side of the road at midnight when that was the exact reason why I signed up then you can nevermind that renewal for the rest of my life.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by lbotos on Thursday November 01, 2018 @08:13PM (#18359677)
I think you can find a happy medium.

I have a JetBlue card that I use for everything non-food spending. That gets me a free flight a year.

I have a capital one card I use for food. I get rewards. Every few months I get $25 back. I could hyper optimize, but nah, I'm happy with the system.

I have friends who do the whole shebang and I agree, it's too much: the focus is to keep you focused on pulling out that card because that's what CC co's want. More spending.

I am traveling a lot more for work, and I'm considering switching to a different card, but I still have no plans of going "all out" and card hopping.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by fhbdukfrh on Thursday November 01, 2018 @06:00PM (#18358873)
I pay cash for coffee at Starbucks at least once a day and coworkers can't believe I don't have the app and collect stars.

Yet somehow I'm the sucker who doesn't get it.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by Godel_unicode on Thursday November 01, 2018 @06:48PM (#18359159)
What value are you getting for the discount and convenience you're giving up?
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by cgriswald on Thursday November 01, 2018 @06:35PM (#18359081)
I don't think you're a sucker, but I will say Starbucks is one of the few that I'm actually signed up for; mostly because the app lets me just run in and grab my coffee instead of worrying about a line and waiting for it to be made. The 'free' coffee from stars is just a bonus.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by Teknoman117 on Friday November 02, 2018 @01:55AM (#18360972)
One of my buddies took about a business credit card with great airline miles features before entering college. He had the money to pay for college due to his employment during school, so he paid for tuition, rent, etc all with the card and paid it off at the end of every month and racked up a hell of a lot of airline miles. He took many, many trips to Asia (from California) on the miles he got. I kinda wish I did the same...
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by jasone on Friday November 02, 2018 @01:57AM (#18360975)
Absolutely, yes. I refuse 1) because loyalty programs are generally designed to increase income rather than save customers money, and 2) I loathe the way the airline programs play to snobbery.

I tend toward cattle class seats to avoid being on the wrong side of the class system, even though my knees complain.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by marssaxman on Thursday November 01, 2018 @08:54PM (#18359890)
I've never signed up for a frequent flyer program. They're obviously just trying to get me to use their airline more often than I otherwise would. Seems to me I'm better off just keeping them all at a distance and picking whichever airline makes sense for each specific trip.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by evilduck on Friday November 02, 2018 @11:45AM (#18363837)
I think there's probably a dramatic difference in attitudes about this between those people flying for personal reasons and trying to play the points game to maximize the goodies and those being paid to fly for work and just letting things accumulate and reaping some personal benefits from it when they fly for themselves.

I fly for work a bit and other than the initial sign up for the programs and giving my various reward account numbers to my company travel agent once, there's no cognitive load to me. I don't go out of my way to maximize the goodies, but I've received enough perks here and there that the whopping 10 minutes I've invested into each signup process has more than paid for itself.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by clubm8 on Friday November 02, 2018 @12:03PM (#18364049)
>I have family members who are super into frequent flyer programs, credit card points, etc, etc. But I don't like the cognitive load they introduce, and I don't like having to figure out how much I'm being manipulated in any given interaction.

You can't handle the cognitive load of attaching a unique identifier to your account? You don't need to pick an airline or game credit cards - just sign up next time you book a flight with a major airline and you will build up points in the background.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by chrisseaton on Friday November 02, 2018 @12:58PM (#18364656)
Different flights and tickets give you a different number of miles. If you are serious about accumulating miles you can spend a great deal of time and effort attempting to optimising how many miles you earn.

If you just 'attach a unique identifier to your account' you aren't going to get much out of a frequent flyer programme.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by clubm8 on Saturday November 03, 2018 @11:26AM (#18370634)
>If you just 'attach a unique identifier to your account' you aren't going to get much out of a frequent flyer programme.

If you're on a consistent route (ex: SF to NYC or London) picking an airline and sticking with it when you fly in every week/month will absolutely rack up points.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by closetohome on Friday November 02, 2018 @01:04PM (#18364716)
Acquiring points is simple. Redeeming them requires a non-trivial amount of work.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by wpietri on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:27AM (#18382987)
Personally, I wouldn't even call acquiring points simple. Right now when I fly it's complicated enough to pick a flight. But one of the points of a frequent flyer program from an airline's perspective is to encourage me to fly their airline more often. So if I belonged to one of the programs, I'd also have to be doing the calculation of, "Oh, if I fly X instead of Y, I'd get enough miles to level up in status and/or get a free goodie." Which means having to learn and keep up with the rules, balances, and rewards of the various programs.

Do not want.

Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by closetohome on Friday November 02, 2018 @12:58PM (#18364657)
All rewards programs and cards are the same thing -- accumulating virtual currency. The token ancillary perks the airline gives you for playing along aren't worth it.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by rjbwork on Thursday November 01, 2018 @06:06PM (#18358903)
I only do cashback. I currently get anywhere from 1.5 to 5% off of anything I buy via cash back. I don't think about it until I go to pay my credit card bill, then I just use the points to take the balance down the 5%
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by rconti on Thursday November 01, 2018 @07:39PM (#18359479)
that's credit cards vs frequent flier programs. Two different things. you can double up on FF by having the 'right' credit card, yes. But that's not the only way to get miles.
Re:On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer ... by rjbwork on Friday November 02, 2018 @10:05AM (#18363084)
Parent comment mentioned credit card points. I technically get points, but I just immediately convert them into money.