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Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by jandrese on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:06PM (#15279053)
This is really the issue. If we could convince media rightsholders that DRM is harmful and unnecessary then all of this heartache wouldn't be necessary.

I don't expect this to happen in my lifetime. Any slight glimmer of hope from Apple ditching DRM on iTunes has died as nobody else shows the slightest interest in following their lead.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by tptacek on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:20PM (#15279165)
It seems self-evidently unharmful, in that we appear to be in a golden era of delivering content online so extraordinary that it threatens traditional television networks.

I understand that this is an extremely unpopular sentiment on HN, but here goes: at least with respect to video content, the industry seems to have largely proven DRM concerns unfounded.

Update: modulo the Hickson concerns below. Continuing:

DRM certainly has kept some (power) user-friendly features off the market. You can take this as a serious harm inflicted by DRM. But I don't think it's reasonable to take that harm in isolation; the alternative isn't simply a world with no such limitations, but also a world with less content made available online.

But I don't see a lot of evidence that those limitations, if genuinely important to users, can't be competed away. The restrictions might be dealbreakers for Paramount, but in 2017, Netflix can route around Paramount.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by ABCLAW on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:47PM (#15279404)
There are additional concerns associated with DRM that aren't revealed in the Hickson post - he speaks solely to the point of intention behind DRM. That begs the question: are there unintended victims of DRM?

Yes, there are.

Copyright law in most countries is the result of a long history of back-and-forth fighting between content creators and content consumers. Copyright infringement has a number of carve-outs that allow people to access works in specific circumstances. Canada's copyright act, for instance, has a section which enumerates a number of these.

29 - Exceptions 29 - Fair Dealing 29.21 - Non-commercial User-generated Content 29.22 - Reproduction for Private Purposes 29.23 - Fixing Signals and Recording Programs for Later Listening or Viewing 29.24 - Backup Copies 29.3 - Acts Undertaken without Motive of Gain 29.4 - Educational Institutions 30.1 - Libraries, Archives and Museums 30.3 - Machines Installed in Educational Institutions, Libraries, Archives and Museums 30.4 - Libraries, Archives and Museums in Educational Institutions 30.5 - Library and Archives of Canada 30.6 - Computer Programs 30.62 - Encryption Research 30.63 - Security 30.7 - Incidental Inclusion 30.71 - Temporary Reproductions for Technological Processes 30.8 - Ephemeral Recordings 31 - Retransmission 31.1 - Network Services 32 - Persons with Perceptual Disabilities 32.1 - Statutory Obligations 32.2 - Miscellaneous

Before continuing with the discussion regarding how DRM is not an issue, take a look at the exceptions in your own country.

These are not small losses, but they are a negative space. You won't know what you're missing because now it just plain won't happen.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by sitkack on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @02:54AM (#15282344)
> between content creators and content consumers

I think of it as the triumvirate of creators, owners (distributors) and consumers. The owners argue as if they create, the do not, they simply own the rights to distribute and take money. The vast majority of creators are getting shafted as well.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by fauigerzigerk on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @06:15AM (#15283220)
>The owners argue as if they create, the do not, they simply own the rights to distribute and take money.

No. Creators are the owners of whatever they create unless and until they sign those rights away. And they sign it away for something they get in return.

It may well be that the media industry is structured in a way that puts creators at an unfair disadvantage in their dealings with media companies. If that is so then it should change.

But using this issue to justify completely unrestricted copying of all content regardless of what creators want is a cop out. Invoking the big business bogeyman as the sole response to all copyright issues is unconvincing, insufficient and ineffective.

What we need is a form of DRM that guarantees fair use rights and doesn't give draconian enforcement and surveillance powers to copyright owners.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by rainbowmverse on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:15AM (#15283926)
This. I think people forget that just because big companies are pushing it doesn't mean everyone who creates and wants limited protections is working under a big company's banner.

For me, streaming is a concession to people who prefer it to owning their music. I don't want them ripping a stream I made $0.004 on (at best) thinking it's a fair exchange of value. My focus is on Bandcamp and other stores that offer DRM-free downloads. Without some kind of friction for copying off streaming sites, if you could just click "download" and not pay me anything, I just wouldn't put my music there.

My belief is someone who goes and pays a fair amount for the music understands it costs money to create, and will encourage the people they share it with under the CC BY-NC-ND 3.0 license to help me make more by buying their own copy (or a subscription).

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by sitkack on Friday September 22, 2017 @09:00PM (#15317373)
Which is why I buy my music from DRM free, full fidelity sites like Bandcamp.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by sitkack on Friday September 22, 2017 @09:02PM (#15317380)
You are putting words in my mouth. I didn't use corporate rights holder argument to justify unrestricted copying. But DRM is enforce market and device segmentation, not to empower content _creators_.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by pedrocr on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:53PM (#15279457)
>DRM certainly has kept some (power) user-friendly features off the market.

Is watching Netflix at 1080p or more a power user feature? Because currently that's heavily restricted by DRM. Not possible on any open-source operating system, restricted to a few browsers on Mac and Windows. 4K is only enabled on Microsoft Edge and only if you also activate a bunch of hardware DRM features. So I have to watch 720p content on a 1440p screen which is ridiculous.

>But I don't see a lot of evidence that those limitations, if genuinely important to users, can't be competed away.

Amazon Prime imposes similar restrictions and is only slightly better at providing 1080p. Meanwhile piratebay still has more choice with more quality and is the only hope at "competition" to make them change their minds.

We are in a world where picking your devices freely is blocked by Amazon/Netflix and the content providers while at the same time those same companies want us to help them push for net neutrality. Commoditize the industries you depend on and capture the ones that depend on you seems to be the play and we should fight it wherever we can.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by DrJokepu on Monday September 18, 2017 @06:03PM (#15280089)
> Is watching Netflix at 1080p or more a power user feature? Because currently that's heavily restricted by DRM. Not possible on any open-source operating system, restricted to a few browsers on Mac and Windows.

Consuming content anything else than the mainstream browsers on anything else than the mainstream operating systems or devices is definitely a power user feature, yes.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by pedrocr on Monday September 18, 2017 @06:08PM (#15280120)
I guess Google Chrome on Windows must be a niche thing then. Because that only gets 720p.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by DrJokepu on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:15PM (#15280811)
> Not possible on any open-source operating system

So where do you get more than 720p if you don't get it neither on open source operating systems nor on Chrome on Windows? If you get 720p max everywhere, why do you think this has anything to do with DRM?

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by slrz on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:45PM (#15281197)
You do get better quality, but only if your system has an OS-level DRM implementation and the browser uses it. This is the case for IE Edge on recent Windows, but not much else.

Chrome on Windows uses its own Widevine DRM implementation instead of the OS-integrated one.

This shitshow is referred to as "robustness requirements" and Netflix apparently agreed to serve high-resolution video only to DRM implementations of certain "robustness" level (OS-integrated DRM with video drivers that co-conspire in enforcing restrictions on the actual device owner).

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by jjeaff on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:11AM (#15282401)
All this complexity to protect the content and yet there isn't a movie or TV show out there you can't find in crisp 1080p on Usenet or torrent sites with one quick search.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by Freak_NL on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:00AM (#15282604)
That's the maddening part that's driving me away from Netflix and similar services. I am completely willing to a pay reasonable sum for content, and the current batch of media providers do a tolerable job, but limiting the image quality because my computer is too free is just silly.

I can get the exact same episode or film — in any resolution — on my HTPC in five minutes, DRM free, by breaking the rules.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by ac29 on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:58PM (#15281018)
Netflix's Windows Store app doesn't have the 720p limitation. I think it may just be a thin shell around Edge, but I'm not 100% sure. It definitely has to do with DRM.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by pedrocr on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:12AM (#15282404)
You can see the system requirements here:

https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23742

1080p is available on Explorer/Windows and Safari/OSX. 4K is available on Edge/Windows with HDCP 2.2 and "Intel's 7th generation Core CPU".

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by baddox on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @01:20AM (#15281994)
On televisions. Most 4k TVs and the increasingly common 4k streaming boxes support 4k playback for the major services that offer it (basically Netflix and Amazon AFAIK).

I don't know if this has much to do with DRM, or if it's just a matter of supporting HEVC.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by barrkel on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:36PM (#15279294)
I think you're discounting the opportunity cost here.

In a world where browser manufacturers, as a block, refused to implement DRM, it's seems obvious that sooner or later visual media producers would be forced to the table, to gain access to paying consumers. We could be in a DRM-free world, without the inconveniences of elaborate technical restrictions on pass-through and mutual device compatibility, or black box binary blobs on otherwise open source operating systems.

With a look on TPB, it seems evident that DRM doesn't work to prevent piracy. Any technical means that would be used to download a rate-adaptive video stream and save locally in the absence of DRM would seem to me to be more involved for the end consumer than downloading pirated media directly - so I don't think DRM even works as a speed-bump.

A standards body is a great place to achieve consensus around a negotiating position. I don't think the consensus that was reached was the one that leads to the best final result. The distance between where we are now, and that final result, is the cost of this decision.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by tptacek on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:42PM (#15279355)
I see how that gets us to a DRM-free world, but not so much why ordinary consumers would care. To a first approximation, no ordinary consumer uses TPB. Unauthorized copies are less convenient (especially since mainstream playback devices won't play them) and frequently of lower quality. The price point for legitimate copies is low enough that the purchase decision isn't that hard.

A standards body is a great place to achieve consensus around a negotiating position, but a pretty big chunk of this standards body doesn't want the negotiating position you want.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by barrkel on Monday September 18, 2017 @07:39PM (#15280638)
The arguments I've seen in favour of supporting DRM are all about enabling the delivery of "protected" media to the consumer - but it's competition of a Prisoner's dilemma kind that drives them there.

If any one vendor - it doesn't matter whether it's a browser, or an operating system, or a graphics card, or a monitor, etc. - agrees to add DRM technology, they hope they'll get an increase in usage / sales at the margin by convincing shy media producers to distribute.

The only way to stop it is to band together and refuse across the board. Individually, everybody gets picked off. You can't be the only monitor that can't play movies, or the only browser that can't show the latest episode of GoT.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by wtmt on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:52PM (#15281659)
Your points about usage of TPB, less convenience, lower quality, cost being low enough - all of them seem to be from the U.S. or first world perspective. In many other countries, TPB or equivalent is very common across classes of people (not just students but also workers in different non-technology industries). Unauthorized copies are more convenient because most people watch media on a tiny laptop or a small monitor desktop (often several years old or low end), where a free VLC or other player will play whatever is thrown at it. Quality of the video/audio isn't a big deal on these lower end, smaller screen and older devices (plus, many people may prefer lower quality for the lower data consumed from a broadband connection).

One might argue that these people would never pay for content and so mustn't be considered when talking about paid content. But given a chance not to jump through hoops and with geography specific pricing, there are ways to get people to pay. That could add up when done right on a large population base. Right now the big content houses are literally leaving money on the table and encouraging piracy (to put it in a different way)!

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by josteink on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:43AM (#15281852)
> TPB, less convenience, lower quality

For me, a DRM-free experience is one I can enjoy on all platforms and devices I have. It also has a much better general UX.

Measured in all ways I can measure quality, DRM only reduces it. Thus sites like TPB still has the upper hand for people who care about quality, portability and UX.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by hacking_again on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:02AM (#15281686)
TPB quality is usually very good, 1GB per hour is common and 4GB per hour is possible for high demand stuff. Plus you get a much better library. A fast internet connection makes the inconvenience of downloading vs. streaming go away.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by franga2000 on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @05:42AM (#15283079)
Not to mention that you can usually start streaming a decent torrent after the first 10%.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by barrkel on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:37AM (#15282763)
1GB per hour isn't enough if you have a big screen (I use a 100" screen with projector). Not even Amazon encodes video well, they have particularly poor colour quantization that ends up filling the screen with blotchy seas of uniform colour; Netflix has the best encoding settings IME.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by nasredin on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:03AM (#15283846)
You are not downloading the right type releases.

WRT movies:

WEBDL is usually 4-5GB

720p Bluray: 6GB

1080p: 8GB and up.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by hacking_again on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:52PM (#15288192)
Right, so since movies are about 2 hours, divide those numbers by 2 to get GB per hour. It's hard to find that quality for good but unpopular movies or shows. But then again, it's usually hard to find good but unpopular movies or shows at all on Netflix.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by brians on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:33PM (#15280900)
The tracker/torrent numbers I see are consistent with more than a quarter of US college-aged people using them, and more than three quarters watching media obtained that way—those are better numbers than HBO. It absolutely has a role in tastemaking.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by ghostly_s on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:08PM (#15281491)
Curious, who publishes figures on this?
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by lovich on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:44PM (#15281398)
>To a first approximation, no ordinary consumer uses TPB.

I'm not sure how true that is. Currently getting content is easy enough that the average consumer doesn't use it, but at least back in the mid 00's the technical people in my social circle got introduced to torrents by people who didn't know how turn off a computer except by unplugging it. They we're willing to take all sorts of risks with their computer on sketchy sites the second it became the easiest way to get their content.

If torrents and piracy become the easiest way again, I could easily see regular people going right back to it.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by TeMPOraL on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @01:02AM (#15281924)
Related: remember SOPA, and the street protests with which Poland led the way to shutting it down in Europe?

I still really don't think the protests happened because people suddenly became aware of abstract consequences of an obscure deal proposal. But exactly at that time, in an unrelated case, FBI shut down Megavideo, widely used by regular people then. This is what they took as a future of Internet under SOPA, and that's why, I believe (based on first-hand experience), they went to the streets.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by lovich on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:46PM (#15288657)
Yea, I don't think the op does this himself but as a group the people on hacker news vasciliate between, comouter literacy is the new literacy and something that requires you downloading two programs(Torrent software and VPN) and go to one website, is beyond anyone but software devs. Computer literacy _is_ the new literacy so is it suprising that regular people can start doing things on computers for themselves?
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by pjc50 on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:33PM (#15281594)
Unauthorized copies tend to be more convenient, since the days of region free DVD players.

I strongly believe that the convenience of Netflix and iTunes only exists because of piracy, and the industry would never have chosen it otherwise. They'd be stuck on pay per view.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by peoplewindow on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:59AM (#15282601)
That's only true if you ignore the problem of malware getting on people's systems via pirated downloads. This is a large and significant source of malware (as people tend to override virus scanners and such).

Piracy does have serious negative side effects on both content creators and end users. It's kind of a hacker fantasy that it doesn't.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by flukus on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:13PM (#15281072)
> To a first approximation, no ordinary consumer uses TPB.

Ordinary consumers get it via sneaker-net on a USB key that they can now plug directly into their TV. Before that there was pirated DVD's and video cassettes, but the ease and cost of piracy is still improving faster than legitimate methods.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by blfr on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @06:46AM (#15283362)
Unauthorized copies are less convenient (especially since mainstream playback devices won't play them) and frequently of lower quality.

HD .mkv files can be viewed on virtually any device, including "smart" TVs long forgotten by their manufacturers which do not support Netflix/Roku/whatever apps, open source devices, smartphones, or regular computers. Usually, you just need to plug in a USB drive and press play.

They can also be of arbitrary high quality. And usually higher, not lower than streaming sources which adjust to network conditions.

It's true that the plans at legitimate distributors are currently very inexpensive. A good seedbox will run higher than Spotify and Netflix subscriptions plus a bowl of nachos but neither the quality, nor the choice, or convenience are even close to piracy.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by franga2000 on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:32AM (#15282742)
In my experience, it has always been easier to pirate movies and TV shows - especially in the last few years. Netflix only had a few of the shows I watch, I had to get HBO Go for the rest. Now Disney is pulling everything to their service. You need multiple services, each with their own apps. Good luck on a 10Mbps connection. Getting DVDs is impossible less than a year after release. With CouchPotato, I find the movie on IMDb and click a button to add to to downloads. Sonarr downloads new episodes of shows just hours after release. Even Stremio (think PopcornTime, but better) is easier to use than most streaming services.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by nasredin on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @07:54AM (#15283771)
"lower quality"?

You can download entire BluRay disks, about 40GB, 4K shows, 10GB IIRC.

You are wrong. Pirates have the same or HIGHER quality video in most cases.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by floatboth on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @07:02AM (#15283453)
> no ordinary consumer uses TPB

In the US, maybe. In some other, less capitalist countries… well, paying for non-physical things seemed ridiculous. Still kinda does, but app stores have somewhat changed that.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by icebraining on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:54PM (#15279999)
In a world where browser manufacturers, as a block, refused to implement DRM, it's seems obvious that sooner or later visual media producers would be forced to the table, to gain access to paying consumers.

Doesn't seem obvious to me. Why wouldn't they use their existing native apps?

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by josteink on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:39AM (#15281828)
Netflix, the original HTML DRM-pusher, actually does. For a gazillion kinds of platforms and devices and they're doing fine.

In fact it seems they have apps for all platforms out there, except the traditional desktop, something it would cost them almost nothing to provide on top of their existing app-offerings.

Basically Netflix is the best proof you have that you don't need DRM in HTML.

And yet here we are. It's absolutely infuriating.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by nindalf on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @02:03AM (#15282144)
So what's the benefit to consumers if streaming services abandon the web? I know of one such service - NowTV, that insisted on me downloading the native app on macOS instead of watching within the browser. Personally I preferred Netflix's browser version, DRM notwithstanding.

DRM is the price that content providers ask of Netflix. Netflix is fine with that, because the alternative is less content. Browser makers are ok with that, because the alternative is fewer people on browsers and more people on native apps. I'm personally ok with that because I dislike installing apps and I prefer the browser, although most people don't have a preference.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by icebraining on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:01AM (#15282610)
So what's the benefit to consumers if streaming services abandon the web?

1. It avoids the ethical problem of pushing DRM onto people who just want a browser. (Firefox does offer a EME-free version, but you have to look for it, when you might not even know what EME is). If a CDM module installed automatically by Firefox becomes an exploit vector, they are ethically responsible, in my opinion.

2. It preserves browser competition. CDM modules only work in approved browsers, so people building new browsers are at a disadvantage. They may be able to use Firefox's sandboxed component, but it's not clear yet.

3. It avoids having second-class OSs for those browsers. For example, Firefox runs on MIPS and SPARC, but the CDM modules don't.

4. It makes it more expensive to use DRM.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by nindalf on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @09:16AM (#15284303)
> It makes it more expensive to use DRM.

This misses my point. No one cares about DRM - not the streaming service, or the browser vendors or most importantly, the users. Consumers have voted with their wallets on this - they'd rather watch Netflix than torrent.

Maybe I'm being callous, but I don't care much about "the ethical problem of pushing DRM". Nor do I care much about MIPS and SPARC. How many end users are running MIPS and SPARC anyway? And I especially don't care about it being difficult to use DRM. All of this sounds like ideological purity, which in my opinion, is a waste of time.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by icebraining on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @11:00AM (#15285228)
You asked for benefits, I listed them. I don't care that you don't care :)
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by nindalf on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @02:07AM (#15291190)
That's fair. I'm the first to admit that my personal opinion is irrelevant. I made the mistake of saying "I don't care", hoping you'd understand I meant "the vast majority doesn't care".

Could you list some benefits that would be appreciated by more than 0.1% of society?

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by barrkel on Monday September 18, 2017 @07:34PM (#15280621)
Why isn't all software native apps?

It comes down to the same set of reasons.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by icebraining on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @01:55AM (#15282118)
Most software don't have to choose between giving up DRM or not using web apps. I'm not convinced at all that their choice would be the former, especially since their clients already use native apps heavily.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by Anderkent on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:31PM (#15279791)
> In a world where browser manufacturers, as a block, refused to implement DRM, it's seems obvious that sooner or later visual media producers would be forced to the table, to gain access to paying consumers. We could be in a DRM-free world, without the inconveniences of elaborate technical restrictions on pass-through and mutual device compatibility, or black box binary blobs on otherwise open source operating systems.

Well, that, or they would have went the direction of newspapers & news - give up on producing quality content, and instead cater to the lowest common denominator by producing the cheapest, most polarising content possible.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by TeMPOraL on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:54AM (#15281896)
In a large way, they already do that. They produce by viewership numbers, DRM or not.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by doikor on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @05:53AM (#15283128)
> In a world where browser manufacturers, as a block, refused to implement DRM

This is a world where we were a couple years ago. The content providers used plugins to provide DRM for the raw video (Widevine for example) or serve the video inside a container that has DRM (flash/silverlight). One of the main reasons for flash and silverlight dying away is that browsers could do more and more of what they did. And playing video the way the content producers/distributors wanted is a big part of that.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by noir_lord on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:40PM (#15279345)
The really insane part is that the DRM is pointless anyway, you can go onto any file sharing/streaming site within minutes of a Netflix release dropping and it's there in HD.

I still maintain my netflix account 1) because my mum uses it with her Roku and 2) because they should be paid for providing value and good TV.

I have the technical skills (like nearly all HN readers I'd imagine) to stream whatever I want with essentially 0% chance of getting caught but I don't because NF has most of the content I want to watch and I don't watch that much anyway.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by mehrdada on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:02PM (#15279542)
> The really insane part is that the DRM is pointless anyway

DRM may be pointless if you think its main goal is a way to prevent people from watching content they did not directly pay for.

But that is missing the point. It does not matter that you, an individual, can break it. It's a divide and conquer strategy: we as a community have to follow the rules and that's what matters.

DRM is about and has been extremely successful at giving content owners leverage over playback devices (you effectively cannot ship a playback device at any real scale without following the rules the content owners set) and transitively to players down the content pipe. That is why it is evil. It's the most clear manifestation of an unjust instrument of power over the user, to put it in Stallman words.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by noir_lord on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:08PM (#15279612)
> (you effectively cannot ship a playback device at any real scale without following the rules the content owners set)

Except a desktop PC/laptop - hence https://youtu.be/HUEvRyemKSg

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by Crespyl on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:55PM (#15281000)
This is a really important talk, here's the Doctorow article based on it, if anyone wants to read instead of watch: https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html

It's already happening too, note the way Netflix refuses to send higher quality streams to the PC, except through IE/Edge or the native app (which exhibits strange, tell-tale behaviors on multi-monitor setups).

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by smsm42 on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:55PM (#15279486)
I remember I has signed up for Audible - and was completely prepared to pay their subscription fees, despite a lot of content being available on pirate sites for $0. But I am old enough to value my time and pay reasonable fee for just mere convenience. And also it's the right thing to do, right?

Turned out, however, that I could not play this content on most of my devices, because it was DRMed into something awful, despite being regular sound files that anything can play underneath, and those devices did not support it.

So, I did two things: a) I downloaded the DRMed files that I had on my subscription, and spent an hour (probably should have taken less, but I have never done it before) on extracting regular MP3s from them and b) I cancelled my Audible subscription. So DRM wasn't just pointless to me, it was bad for both myself and Audible (I started with thinking they are awesome and now I low-key despise them).

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by AndrewUnmuted on Monday September 18, 2017 @06:03PM (#15280083)
You can get rid of the DRM easily with FFmpeg:

ffmpeg -activation_bytes 1CEB00DA -i test.aax -vn -c:a copy output.mp4

See: http://ffmpeg.org/ffmpeg-all.html#Audible-AAX

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by StavrosK on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:09PM (#15281058)
Thank you for that, I have a bunch of Audible titles that I want to listen to but I prefer another audiobook player.

The fact that it's a choice between "use the player I like" and "listen to the books I bought" is why DRM is evil.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by tptacek on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:45PM (#15279379)
I'm an admirer of well-done DRM technology but I think I agree with the subtext here, which is that DRM doesn't have much of a future. Ironically, the thing that is likely to end DRM is standardized DRM. By making it easier for technology/content companies to deal in premium content, content providers are making it easier to compete with them for their middleman role in funding content.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by 7952 on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @02:08AM (#15282161)
What annoys me is that DRM could be great for consumer privacy. I could have chat windows that are encrypted streams rendered fully in hardware. There are numerous legitimate reason to want to avoid data being generally accessible. But DRM seems to focus exclusively on content.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by sitkack on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:04AM (#15282374)
Maybe Mozilla should up this up to end users. Then Feinstein will make silicon valley break DRM and the NSA will enable 4k Netflix everywhere.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by noir_lord on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:48PM (#15279412)
In theory I don't have a problem with DRM if it was "perfect" (worked everywhere, didn't suffer all the problems with current systems) but I just don't see that happening since the incentive to stop at "well it's good enough and it works on 95% of our customers machines" is always there.

I also don't really like blackboxes I can't at least theoretically look at the code for if I want to, I don't like it with the Intel manaement engines (and AMD) etc either but that is a trade off I have to make if I want to run new hardware, compromising my security so I can watch a movie is a lot less enticing.

This is the kind of future I fear https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noir_(novel) (and if anyone is wondering my username isn't a co-incidence).

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by bane on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:54PM (#15279468)
Standardized DRM also makes it much easier to break and distribute the content. Break it once and you're done. When any vendor can build in whatever kind of DRM they want, it requires a virtual toolkit that can overcome whatever DRM approach the vendor happens to have chosen that day.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by bsder on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:03PM (#15280763)
The big guys know that DRM doesn't work. DRM is about putting "color onto the bits" so people can be sued.

Nothing more; nothing less.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by gsnedders on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @07:09AM (#15283484)
Far too many people seem to not realise this, and if you want to argue with content producers about it, arguing over the existence of content on TPB won't get you anywhere because they're not totally blind and can see it doesn't stop content from getting there.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by Freak_NL on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:04AM (#15282629)
> color onto the bits

Does that mean (effectively) watermarking?

Do pirated releases even come from (defeated) DRM sources these days?

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by victorNicollet on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:28AM (#15282726)
I believe it's a reference to http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by hedonistbot on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:45AM (#15284113)
Just noticed the Terry Davis cameo in the comments with one of his random generated god quotes - http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23#terry-a-davis-1274100060

This article got even better.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by zero_iq on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:41AM (#15282787)
I think he's referring to this classic article (or one of its follow-ups): http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by crummy on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:58AM (#15284195)
DRM isn't about making things impossible to pirate, it's about making them harder to pirate.

IMO, some people will always pirate your movie/music/games/whatever. But if the crack lasts a few weeks, or if you have to unplug your DVD drive to get it to work, or if it's a low quality cam rip, or if all the good torrent sites have been shut down and now the last ones are infested with spyware, or if there's a risk of getting sued by the MPAA... all of these are factors that'll tilt the pirate vs buy decision.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by jandrese on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:32PM (#15279257)
There is an argument that there wouldn't necessarily be that much less content online. If your options are either deliver DRM free content or leave money on the table from the gigantic streaming media boom then it's hard for companies to ignore potential profits.

The problem with DRM is that it gave them a way to have their cake and eat it too, at the expense of the general public. Every time you have to use a shitty half baked interface to select your movie/TV show (I'm looking at you, Netflix and Amazon) you can thank DRM.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by saganus on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:33PM (#15279264)
Maybe the harm will be realized in the long run, when you want to watch something that is no longer available?

For example, the Netflix library changes every now and then (at least that I've been able to detect), and there's more than one show that I can no longer watch anymore that I wish I could.

That to me is harmful because I don't really know when this happens until I search for it and it's no longer there. So I end up buying DVDs of shows/movies I really would like to re-watch in the future just so I can avoid Netflix's listing changes.

I guess the argument is that if there were no DRM I could download those shows I like the most and watch them at anytime, regardless of whether Netflix wants me to or not.

Not sure about the reasons for others to consider DRM harmful (or not), but this one to me is really important and would love to have a DRM-free alternative besides pirating (due to inconvenience mainly, and due to general concern for downloading stuff that might not be what it supposedly should be).

However this looks like wishful thinking at best, as time goes by and DRM is pushed further.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by holon on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @02:58PM (#15287747)
Netflix announces which content will be added/removed months ahead of time. The decision to remove content is driven primarily by the principal right holders - Netflix is largely just "leasing" the shows that it presents (hence the company's shift to producing its own content).

To present it as a decision solely made by Netflix grossly underestimates the contractual complexity and involved parties responsible for turning a screenplay into something you can stream in 4K, all of whom have ownership stakes to lesser or greater degrees.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by saganus on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @01:03PM (#15295978)
I didn't mean to imply that shows got delisted at the sole discretion of Netflix. I understand that it's a complex decision with multiple stakeholders, and would even like to think that Netflix benefits the most from NOT delisting shows (i.e. they are on "my" side).

I was merely trying to point out that whoever decides what gets delisted (in this case for the sake of simplicity I said Netflix), has control over what I will be able to watch instead of me.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by madez on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:27PM (#15280864)
DRM is harmful. Its prerequisite is that users do not control their hardware. This has far reaching consequences that go well beyond media consumption and entertainment.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by dsacco on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:47PM (#15280967)
That's not axiomatic; in fact, it's a normative claim, not a positive one.

The argument is not that there are no consequences, but that DRM is a net positive because those consequences are the trade off for more and better content online.

Why don't you clarify why you think the tradeoff is not worth it, instead of just saying DRM = bad?

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by madez on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:56PM (#15281008)
But the consequences affect everybody, all the time, even those that do not want to watch DRM'ed stuff online. That price is too high.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by dsacco on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:01PM (#15281028)
How do the consequences affect everybody, all the time?

Why is the price too high?

I'm not being obtuse, this is legitimately not obvious to me. Unpack your reasoning a bit, because I still don't see why it's axiomatic that DRM can't be a valuable tradeoff.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by joe_the_user on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:17PM (#15281079)
As was said before, DRM implies that no user controls their machine because it implies that someone else's content is always "safe" on that user's machine. DRM is inherently pernicious to everything from basic computer security to a democratic society.

The right to read:

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by jpttsn on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @02:46AM (#15282315)
I still control my machine. I just run software that I don't understand to get content to play.

If I wasn't able to run a certain subset of software, i.e. DRM, then my machine would be less universal, not more.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by madez on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:20AM (#15282690)
No, you do not control your machine.

Controling your machine does not imply you always understand what it is doing, jusy like controling your car doesn't imply you always know exactly where it is and how it got there. You may give your keys to your spouse to drive somewhere and you trust that they do just that. Back to computers, that means when you run someones elses software you don't necessarily know how it is doing what it is doing and you trust it does what you hope it does, yet you could be in control.

So when do you lose control? In the world of cars, when you do not have the choice whom to give your keys, when someone has the power to take your keys independently of what you want, then you do not have control. In the world of computers, DRM is to take your keys, or to never give them to you, in the first place. DRM has led to components in each and every PC that are built to be beyond the control of the owner.

I don't see a big problem with a DRM-capable computer on it's own, however, I don't think it's ideal and would argue against it. But the _big_ problem starts when I cannot buy a computer without it, anymore. That is where we are.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by ubernostrum on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @05:09AM (#15291860)
But the _big_ problem starts when I cannot buy a computer without it, anymore.

So make one. There'll be a lot of things it won't be able to do, but nobody's going to put a gun to your head and order you to stop producing a DRM-free machine for yourself.

Meanwhile, the "you don't control your machine" argument suffers from the same fundamental tension as many of the RMS/GNU/FSF positions: in the name of freeing you from restrictions, they impose restrictions. The GPL, in the name of protecting what you can do with the software, specifies some things you must never be allowed to do with the software. The hardcore anti-DRM position, in the name of protecting what you can do with the hardware, specifies some things you must never be allowed to do with the hardware.

Now, that's not necessarily bad; there are arguments to be made that trading off a small amount of freedom to do a handful of things protects a large amount of freedom to do many things. But unfortunately that's not a type of argument RMS/GNU/FSF can admit to, because they frame things in absolutist moral terms. The absolutist cannot speak in terms of tradeoffs. To do so is to compromise the entire position and, worse, to open the door to others who might propose a different set of tradeoffs and argue that they're as reasonable as the absolutist's proposal; at that point, as the famous line goes, you're just haggling over your price.

So if you want a computer with no DRM, by all means go and build one. Refuse to put anything in it that you don't absolutely control. You'll be giving up quite a few things, like being able to play back popular media, but if that's the tradeoff you want you certainly are free to go and have it.

What you can't do is force others to abide by that; most people simply do not care that there are things in their computers not fully under their control, or if they reflect on it are willing to accept the tradeoff of, say, having hardware/software that will refuse to play certain media unless certain third-party-imposed conditions are met. You could argue that the overwhelming majority of them have never thought about this and probably wouldn't come to a rigorous and well-informed decision about it, but morally you have no inherent right to substitute your judgment of what's good for them in place of their judgment of what's good for them. The most you can do is build your own computer which does things the way you want, install only software that you personally trust to abide by your principles, and advocate for others to do the same.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by dsacco on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @01:24PM (#15296163)
This is an excellent comment, to which I might add: framing a persuasive argument based on the position that DRM (or nearly anything) is an unequivocal bad is very nearly guaranteed to be untenable and inherently inconsistent.

If you truly believe that DRM is harmful in general, you need to construct an argument that appeals to educating people about which practical freedoms they care about will be lost. At that point you need to accept that they might not care about those freedoms.

But if you construct an argument from the axiom that users shouldn't introduce anything into their systems they can't reasonably control, you've fundamentally isolated almost everyone who you want to convince. Of those remaining to listen, most will typically already be on your side end evangelizing the same thing. In order to be consistent, arguing from a core axiom of user freedom and choice requires sacrificing things like hardware security modules, which are a giant leap forward for user security. You can have the absolute freedom to do anything if you'd like, but you might find that there are relatively few ways to apply that freedom if you do.

The alternative is a balanced approach: you don't start from an axiom that users need to be inherently free, and that some amount of tradeoff in freedom is beneficial and desirable. Then you go on to demonstrate why DRM in particular is bad in general. But this is a much weaker position in general, and framed this way you'll have fewer people to argue with.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by shaan7 on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @09:42AM (#15293592)
I think its pretty clear that there is no "moral right" (as if such a think even exists) about that, but we need to continue advocating others about how artificial such restrictions are. I know people who genuinely think its just not technically possible to play 4K Netflix video on Firefox while the reality is that its just an artificial restriction. And if people don't oppose that, its going to get more universal. It sucks that instead of software empowering users, we're really just moving backwards.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by anythrow123 on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:02PM (#15281252)
The last CD I bought was DRM protected. It was impossible to play it on my car stereo. I had to make a recording/copy and burn that to a cd in order to play it. Never bought a CD again.

Imagine I would make the money I pay for media also DRM protected, so it can only be spend in a specific way? Would they accept my money?

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by tree_of_item on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:16PM (#15281289)
What they said was that DRM = user does not control their hardware, not DRM = bad. And that's true.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by quadrangle on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:04PM (#15281481)
they said both (and both are true)
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by hedora on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:40PM (#15281375)
I paid for spotify. Then they cut 10% of the music I listen to. Then they did that what seemed like every month until I cancelled.

If the social contract for DRM was "subscribe to a growing library of content for an inflation-adjusted rate", that'd be fine. Instead, the contract is "cede all your rights until there are no technological alternatives and a few monopolies own the whole market".

Not cool. I'd love to see the w3c disband over this.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by Mindwipe on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @09:35AM (#15284425)
> If the social contract for DRM was "subscribe to a growing library of content for an inflation-adjusted rate", that'd be fine. Instead, the contract is "cede all your rights until there are no technological alternatives and a few monopolies own the whole market".

Hacker News everyone, where one week the film companies are evil because they won't give Netflix all their content so people can have one streaming service and the next we have "monopolies own<ing> the whole market.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by driverdan on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:53PM (#15280990)
It harms anyone who wants to use streaming content offline on devices they control.

I often have slow internet access in my home which limits my ability to stream. If I can download when I have a good connection I can view later when my connection goes to shit. This is not an option with most streaming services (eg Netflix). I pay for these services. I should have control of how and when I view the content.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by yakubin on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:59PM (#15281022)
Netflix allows you to download videos. I've watched several episodes of Star Trek on a train this way.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by driverdan on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @09:17AM (#15284309)
Not on desktop. I hate watching movies and TV on a small phone screen.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by Mindwipe on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @02:09PM (#15287214)
Windows 10 desktops can download content through the app.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by chenster on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:27PM (#15281122)
You can even download Netflix to your phone and watch it later.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by admax88q on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:39AM (#15281830)
And then it casually and silently deletes them after some unspecified time. Which has screwed me before on a long flights.

Now I always pirate media in advance I intend to watch in the air. I don't want to have to babysit my netflix downloads to make sure that they really are downloaded.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by always_good on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:43PM (#15288129)
Wow, really? Yeah, that's a bit enraging. Idiosyncrasies like this should at least be exposed in the UI. An expiration countdown in this case.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by always_good on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:01PM (#15287777)
Not all shows support that, though.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by gras on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:37PM (#15281168)
I have the same issue. I have a Netflix subscription, but I also pirate things that are available there e.g. via PT, because I can then just use VLC and have that better user experience, including the possibility of taking the movie onto a train.

I think the limitations on playback are an unreasonable burden. More fundamentally, I think I should have the right to gain the fullest possible degree of control and knowledge of the workings of my computing equipment without being punished by the legal system. Just like I should have the right to repair, inspect and modify the physical objects I buy, should I be allowed to do that with my computing hardware and their information contents.

In the near future neural networks will recreate full software packages just from being connected to cloud-based applications that stream video and commands back and forth from a browser window (or a VNC-like desktop client/app). The DRM systems will always be cracked, because you fundamentally can't and should not be able to control what people do with the information you give them, and eventually even running the DRM by not sending the executable code at all will not be enough to make software impossible to copy.

However, I don't think this will be a large problem, because you can still fine people for sharing copyrighted material with randoms (I'm not sure I think that's a good idea, haven't thought about it enough), and once you have enough clients that integrate content stores and payment functionality with playback, you can get a user experience that is so much better than that of Spotify.

I think the right to free computation and inspection, repair, integration and modification of computing systems should be enshrined in national constitutions, as it is as fundamental as the right to free expression, and perhaps just the newest incarnation (and necessary extension) of that same principle.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by Alex3917 on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:04AM (#15281689)
> It seems self-evidently unharmful, in that we appear to be in a golden era of delivering content online so extraordinary that it threatens traditional television networks.

One of the main reasons we need so much new content is because a large percentage of old content is no longer accessible, mostly for reasons related to rights management.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by Freak_NL on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:18AM (#15282685)
There are so many excellent films made in the second half of the twentieth century that most people will only encounter when, ironically, a broadcaster shows it on classical linear television.

I had hopes that Netflix becoming a global phenomenon meant that a vast library of content would become available, but instead we are now in an era of increasing fragmentation of content offered, with content providers becoming content creators (fine), for exclusive content (rather limiting), offering only a token of third party content of dubious quality (hey!).

Here is a radical though: reduce copyright to 28 years, and let the Netflixes and HBO's compete against that! Not going to happen of course — the best some of us can do in the meantime is pretend copyright did end after such a term, or just meekly submit to whatever is made available, DRM-shackles and all.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by scriptkiddy on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:35PM (#15286161)
> There are so many excellent films made in the second half of the twentieth century that most people will only encounter when, ironically, a broadcaster shows it on classical linear television.

Yep, I would have never discovers Jeremiah Johnson without TMC.

> Here is a radical though: reduce copyright to 28 years, and let the Netflixes and HBO's compete against that! Not going to happen of course — the best some of us can do in the meantime is pretend copyright did end after such a term, or just meekly submit to whatever is made available, DRM-shackles and all.

This is the real root of this issue. You're completely on the right track.

Originally, copyright only protected an idea for a very short amount of time. Basically the amount of time required to go to market with an idea. Copyright was intended to protect the little guy entering the industry so larger competitors couldn't steal their ideas until after the little guy entered the market.

Now, on the other hand, copyright accomplishes the exact opposite. It protects the big guys by ensuring that no-one can ever use or improve upon their ideas/products without their express consent for what seems like an eternity(see Disney constantly requesting copyright extensions on Mickey Mouse). There should be a hard limit on copyright of 5 years, maybe 10 for IP. As you said above, this will never happen as there are too many people and companies feeding off the current system. Disrupting the status quo would result in an eruption of outcry from studios, record labels, and publishers.

That said, I think we can all agree that is absolutely absurd that record labels are still profiting off of albums where every person who worked on them is now dead for an example.

Let's also be real here and address the issue that artists don't really benefit from signing on to contracts with large corporations outside of maybe better publicity. 90% of the proceeds from listens on spotify or shows on Netflix are going to the companies that own the rights and not the musicians/actors. That's why most non-mainstream music is moving into self publishing/independent labels.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by CrystalGamma on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @05:51AM (#15283115)
What, you mean return copyright to a state that worked for, what, a century, and which meant that people could actually freely remix things they saw as adolescents within their lifetimes? Blasphemy!
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by wiz21c on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @02:58PM (#15297088)
This radical thought have been more or less argued in court by Eben Moglen. He failed (and I can feel he was very sad about that - I certainly was)
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by md224 on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:38PM (#15281173)
I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument for DRM (we need to ensure artists receive fair compensation for their work), but I wonder:

If the entertainment industry could survive the age of "DVD ripping with abandon", can't it survive the age of "people copying Netflix movies with abandon"? Do industry leaders anticipate the latter will be much worse than the former? Is the cash flow situation that dire?

Or is DRM about something besides preventing piracy?

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by sasas on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:55PM (#15281225)
How do you prevent someone from capturing their screen and recording a movie? Do you really think it will stop or slow down piracy ?

What we do know for certain is it will strip you as a consumer of control over of hardware and software that you purchased.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by baddox on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @01:27AM (#15282016)
FYI, they literally try to do that. HDCP is DRM between displays and video output devices.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by alexasmyths on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:30PM (#15281336)
It's supply and demand.

Nothing will stop 'piracy' - noting will stop any crime.

Copying DVD's required cost and labour. There's a limit to how much pirating any individual can do.

Over the net - it's rather instantaneous.

DRM'd content raises the bar beyond most people, so it cuts down on piracy.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by sasas on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @02:10AM (#15282166)
> DRM'd content raises the bar beyond most people, so it cuts down on piracy.

All it takes is one individual to make a "DRM" free version of a movie and begin to torrent to the public - and then the bar is lowered to the average consumer / pirate..

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by peoplewindow on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:10AM (#15282655)
Cinavia does exactly that via watermarking the audio channel. Various playback devices are required to embed a Cinavia detector as part of their licensing requirements.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by breck on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:54PM (#15279469)
> the alternative isn't simply a world with no such limitations, but also a world with less content made available online.

I don't buy this. Do you have data supporting this claim?

Disclaimer: I am totally biased and think IP laws are morally wrong and a huge regressive tax on the poor.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by rainbowmverse on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @09:13AM (#15284284)
IP laws are why rich and powerful media companies can't take my independent creations without compensation and profit off them without risk of a lawsuit. Copyright serves a valuable purpose, even if lobbyists and the big companies they serve seem to not understand (or care about) copyright's function.

Copyright is DRM without the D. It puts just enough friction on using my creations commercially to make them decide to pay me rather than risk consequences. I don't mind it going public domain after a while. I'm not greedy, and I understand that culture needs to be fed to continue producing more.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by Touche on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:20PM (#15279167)
It's not harmful to them. I suggest reading this if you haven't already: https://plus.google.com/+IanHickson/posts/iPmatxBYuj2
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by tareqak on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:38PM (#15279862)
Thanks for that! From my reading of the end, it seems to me that there is inherent conflict of interest in being a content-licensee and a browser-maker with respect to DRM e.g. an analogy that builds on foxes guarding the hen house.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by trowway21 on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:56PM (#15281232)
Make a browser extension that works across all browsers to sync user data. Then inform consumers. Consumers then easily switch to better independent browser builds, forcing media holders' hands. If consumers have no desire or ability to become aware, and can't muster the will to delay gratification for a few days it's hopeless. Consumer awareness must be the end goal; rather than establishing a smaller subset of aware representatives to tell the media holders the consumers care. The media distribution channels own the media right holders. They control the flow of $ completely. Six corporations have complete control. Same corporations choose which of the infinite security flaws to discuss on the news, and effectively dictate the browsers and consumption methods/endpoints people use. No solution will acomplish the result of total consumer awareness, for any period of time, without first achieving consumer awareness.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by jopsen on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @02:25AM (#15282230)
We have to forbid DRM by legal means...

Void copyright if DRM is employed, the same way you can have secret parents.

Legal protection shouldn't come without a price.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by wildsatchmo on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:38PM (#15279315)
There are some blockchain based systems in the works that may help with this mess. If a middleman can be removed, content creators could publish directly to p2p networks without losing the ability to earn money from their contributions. Instead of relying on some rights mgmt company to authorize content they could create a smart contract to programmatically allocate earnings to all parties involved. Time will tell but check out http://www.pepperlaw.com/publications/music-and-the-blockcha...

This also has the side effect of eliminating curation bias / censorship allowing for all sorts of new content to become available that might not otherwise be allowed on iTunes/Netflix etc.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by acdha on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:28PM (#15281573)
That article seems like a winning buzzword-bingo game by someone selling blockchains.Anyone who wants to sell online already can and there are plenty of people who do with either no middlemen or by picking a third party who shares some philosophical goals. Similarly, unless you're trying to sell completely illegal content it's trivial to buy or sell content which the major players choose not to carry — e.g. iTunes and Netflix not offering porn hasn't seemed to prevent anyone from watching it.

The actual problems here are discovery and piracy. The former increases the benefits (real and perceived) of middlemen with promotional channels, speaking to both to the creators wanting their work to be found and anyone finding it. The latter is similarly important: most artists don't make money so every lost sale counts and for every artist who believes content should be unencumbered there seem to be more who demand DRM, especially the mainstream ones with the most customers.

Not addressing both of those is fatal: if customers can't find what they want easily, the service is unlikely to make it out of the indie market. The key thing to remember is that outside of the diehard anti-DRM community, nobody sees this as a problem – most people find what they want on a major service, pay an acceptable amount, and leave satisfied.

Blockchains don't solve those problems and add new ones, like performance and irrecoverably failing open if there's a bug, which are likely showstoppers.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by giobox on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:26PM (#15281114)
iTunes ditching DRM for purchased audio was never really a glimmer of hope for video, and lets face it this discussion is really about video more than anything else.

iTunes movies still have DRM. Arguably DRM free audio had extremely little bearing on the future of video, given the very different demands of each marketplace.

Remember also, that with a few exceptions (Sony rootkit anyone?), music had a long history of being DRM free before digital distribution came along (vinyl, tape, CD etc). Video distribution by contrast has a long tradition of many copy prevention "solutions" over the years on many different physical formats.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by mtgx on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:15AM (#15282419)
> If we could convince media rightsholders

Even that is not ultimately necessary. What we need to do is convince politicians that it's a bad thing, and in theory we should have a lot more influence over those. They can pass the necessary laws to say DRM is illegal and it would be much better plus potentially easier than crawling and begging to the media companies to throw us a bone.

In practice it's not so easy because the US has a broken and corrupt political system where the politicians are more dependent on rich donors than on the People who vote for them.

So once again we arrive to the same conclusion Larry Lessig did many years ago: if you want to fix the copyright issues, or the climate issues, or healthcare issues, or any other big issue, you need to fix money in politics first. Everyone on all sides, no matter what other conflicting issues they have with each other, should be working hard on that issue if they want any hope for their other issues.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by malloreon on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:27PM (#15279213)
"It is very difficult to make someone understand something if their livelihood is predicated on them not understanding it."
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by dsacco on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:55PM (#15281001)
Could we put a moratorium on just posting cynical quotes that almost everyone has heard without adding something original to the discussion?
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by sowbug on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:14PM (#15281285)
But... but... you're the product! Don't you get it!?
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by wmf on Monday September 18, 2017 @07:22PM (#15280556)
Or we could convince media rightsholders that they don't need to deliver their DRMed content through the Web.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by wiz21c on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:11AM (#15282399)
You'd have to convince them that DRM is against their best interest or provide them with something event better than DRM for their best interest. That's much tougher.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by isostatic on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @02:09AM (#15282165)
Didn't I used to be able to buy mp3s from amazon - no DRM? That was before spotify and other streaming solutions of course.

Do people want DRM-free media, or do they want ease of use?

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by floatboth on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @07:07AM (#15283475)
You can still buy m4as from iTunes, no DRM.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by onion2k on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:20AM (#15282445)
Do people want DRM-free media, or do they want ease of use?

There's no technical reason why there has to be a choice between the two. Spotify could implement 'Save to device' or 'Share this song offline' features very easily. The only reason they don't is down to the politics of ownership.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by x0x0 on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:09AM (#15282646)
Spotify does implement save to device; their sole requirement is you go online once very 30 days.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by zentiggr on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @09:16AM (#15284304)
So in other words, no this isn't yours, we're going to decide if you can have it.

NIMBY.