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Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by barrkel on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:36PM (#15279294)
I think you're discounting the opportunity cost here.

In a world where browser manufacturers, as a block, refused to implement DRM, it's seems obvious that sooner or later visual media producers would be forced to the table, to gain access to paying consumers. We could be in a DRM-free world, without the inconveniences of elaborate technical restrictions on pass-through and mutual device compatibility, or black box binary blobs on otherwise open source operating systems.

With a look on TPB, it seems evident that DRM doesn't work to prevent piracy. Any technical means that would be used to download a rate-adaptive video stream and save locally in the absence of DRM would seem to me to be more involved for the end consumer than downloading pirated media directly - so I don't think DRM even works as a speed-bump.

A standards body is a great place to achieve consensus around a negotiating position. I don't think the consensus that was reached was the one that leads to the best final result. The distance between where we are now, and that final result, is the cost of this decision.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by tptacek on Monday September 18, 2017 @04:42PM (#15279355)
I see how that gets us to a DRM-free world, but not so much why ordinary consumers would care. To a first approximation, no ordinary consumer uses TPB. Unauthorized copies are less convenient (especially since mainstream playback devices won't play them) and frequently of lower quality. The price point for legitimate copies is low enough that the purchase decision isn't that hard.

A standards body is a great place to achieve consensus around a negotiating position, but a pretty big chunk of this standards body doesn't want the negotiating position you want.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by barrkel on Monday September 18, 2017 @07:39PM (#15280638)
The arguments I've seen in favour of supporting DRM are all about enabling the delivery of "protected" media to the consumer - but it's competition of a Prisoner's dilemma kind that drives them there.

If any one vendor - it doesn't matter whether it's a browser, or an operating system, or a graphics card, or a monitor, etc. - agrees to add DRM technology, they hope they'll get an increase in usage / sales at the margin by convincing shy media producers to distribute.

The only way to stop it is to band together and refuse across the board. Individually, everybody gets picked off. You can't be the only monitor that can't play movies, or the only browser that can't show the latest episode of GoT.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by wtmt on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:52PM (#15281659)
Your points about usage of TPB, less convenience, lower quality, cost being low enough - all of them seem to be from the U.S. or first world perspective. In many other countries, TPB or equivalent is very common across classes of people (not just students but also workers in different non-technology industries). Unauthorized copies are more convenient because most people watch media on a tiny laptop or a small monitor desktop (often several years old or low end), where a free VLC or other player will play whatever is thrown at it. Quality of the video/audio isn't a big deal on these lower end, smaller screen and older devices (plus, many people may prefer lower quality for the lower data consumed from a broadband connection).

One might argue that these people would never pay for content and so mustn't be considered when talking about paid content. But given a chance not to jump through hoops and with geography specific pricing, there are ways to get people to pay. That could add up when done right on a large population base. Right now the big content houses are literally leaving money on the table and encouraging piracy (to put it in a different way)!

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by josteink on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:43AM (#15281852)
> TPB, less convenience, lower quality

For me, a DRM-free experience is one I can enjoy on all platforms and devices I have. It also has a much better general UX.

Measured in all ways I can measure quality, DRM only reduces it. Thus sites like TPB still has the upper hand for people who care about quality, portability and UX.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by hacking_again on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:02AM (#15281686)
TPB quality is usually very good, 1GB per hour is common and 4GB per hour is possible for high demand stuff. Plus you get a much better library. A fast internet connection makes the inconvenience of downloading vs. streaming go away.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by franga2000 on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @05:42AM (#15283079)
Not to mention that you can usually start streaming a decent torrent after the first 10%.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by barrkel on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:37AM (#15282763)
1GB per hour isn't enough if you have a big screen (I use a 100" screen with projector). Not even Amazon encodes video well, they have particularly poor colour quantization that ends up filling the screen with blotchy seas of uniform colour; Netflix has the best encoding settings IME.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by nasredin on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:03AM (#15283846)
You are not downloading the right type releases.

WRT movies:

WEBDL is usually 4-5GB

720p Bluray: 6GB

1080p: 8GB and up.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by hacking_again on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:52PM (#15288192)
Right, so since movies are about 2 hours, divide those numbers by 2 to get GB per hour. It's hard to find that quality for good but unpopular movies or shows. But then again, it's usually hard to find good but unpopular movies or shows at all on Netflix.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by brians on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:33PM (#15280900)
The tracker/torrent numbers I see are consistent with more than a quarter of US college-aged people using them, and more than three quarters watching media obtained that way—those are better numbers than HBO. It absolutely has a role in tastemaking.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by ghostly_s on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:08PM (#15281491)
Curious, who publishes figures on this?
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by lovich on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:44PM (#15281398)
>To a first approximation, no ordinary consumer uses TPB.

I'm not sure how true that is. Currently getting content is easy enough that the average consumer doesn't use it, but at least back in the mid 00's the technical people in my social circle got introduced to torrents by people who didn't know how turn off a computer except by unplugging it. They we're willing to take all sorts of risks with their computer on sketchy sites the second it became the easiest way to get their content.

If torrents and piracy become the easiest way again, I could easily see regular people going right back to it.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by TeMPOraL on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @01:02AM (#15281924)
Related: remember SOPA, and the street protests with which Poland led the way to shutting it down in Europe?

I still really don't think the protests happened because people suddenly became aware of abstract consequences of an obscure deal proposal. But exactly at that time, in an unrelated case, FBI shut down Megavideo, widely used by regular people then. This is what they took as a future of Internet under SOPA, and that's why, I believe (based on first-hand experience), they went to the streets.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by lovich on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:46PM (#15288657)
Yea, I don't think the op does this himself but as a group the people on hacker news vasciliate between, comouter literacy is the new literacy and something that requires you downloading two programs(Torrent software and VPN) and go to one website, is beyond anyone but software devs. Computer literacy _is_ the new literacy so is it suprising that regular people can start doing things on computers for themselves?
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by pjc50 on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:33PM (#15281594)
Unauthorized copies tend to be more convenient, since the days of region free DVD players.

I strongly believe that the convenience of Netflix and iTunes only exists because of piracy, and the industry would never have chosen it otherwise. They'd be stuck on pay per view.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by peoplewindow on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:59AM (#15282601)
That's only true if you ignore the problem of malware getting on people's systems via pirated downloads. This is a large and significant source of malware (as people tend to override virus scanners and such).

Piracy does have serious negative side effects on both content creators and end users. It's kind of a hacker fantasy that it doesn't.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by flukus on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:13PM (#15281072)
> To a first approximation, no ordinary consumer uses TPB.

Ordinary consumers get it via sneaker-net on a USB key that they can now plug directly into their TV. Before that there was pirated DVD's and video cassettes, but the ease and cost of piracy is still improving faster than legitimate methods.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by blfr on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @06:46AM (#15283362)
Unauthorized copies are less convenient (especially since mainstream playback devices won't play them) and frequently of lower quality.

HD .mkv files can be viewed on virtually any device, including "smart" TVs long forgotten by their manufacturers which do not support Netflix/Roku/whatever apps, open source devices, smartphones, or regular computers. Usually, you just need to plug in a USB drive and press play.

They can also be of arbitrary high quality. And usually higher, not lower than streaming sources which adjust to network conditions.

It's true that the plans at legitimate distributors are currently very inexpensive. A good seedbox will run higher than Spotify and Netflix subscriptions plus a bowl of nachos but neither the quality, nor the choice, or convenience are even close to piracy.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by franga2000 on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:32AM (#15282742)
In my experience, it has always been easier to pirate movies and TV shows - especially in the last few years. Netflix only had a few of the shows I watch, I had to get HBO Go for the rest. Now Disney is pulling everything to their service. You need multiple services, each with their own apps. Good luck on a 10Mbps connection. Getting DVDs is impossible less than a year after release. With CouchPotato, I find the movie on IMDb and click a button to add to to downloads. Sonarr downloads new episodes of shows just hours after release. Even Stremio (think PopcornTime, but better) is easier to use than most streaming services.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by nasredin on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @07:54AM (#15283771)
"lower quality"?

You can download entire BluRay disks, about 40GB, 4K shows, 10GB IIRC.

You are wrong. Pirates have the same or HIGHER quality video in most cases.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by floatboth on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @07:02AM (#15283453)
> no ordinary consumer uses TPB

In the US, maybe. In some other, less capitalist countries… well, paying for non-physical things seemed ridiculous. Still kinda does, but app stores have somewhat changed that.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by icebraining on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:54PM (#15279999)
In a world where browser manufacturers, as a block, refused to implement DRM, it's seems obvious that sooner or later visual media producers would be forced to the table, to gain access to paying consumers.

Doesn't seem obvious to me. Why wouldn't they use their existing native apps?

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by josteink on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:39AM (#15281828)
Netflix, the original HTML DRM-pusher, actually does. For a gazillion kinds of platforms and devices and they're doing fine.

In fact it seems they have apps for all platforms out there, except the traditional desktop, something it would cost them almost nothing to provide on top of their existing app-offerings.

Basically Netflix is the best proof you have that you don't need DRM in HTML.

And yet here we are. It's absolutely infuriating.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by nindalf on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @02:03AM (#15282144)
So what's the benefit to consumers if streaming services abandon the web? I know of one such service - NowTV, that insisted on me downloading the native app on macOS instead of watching within the browser. Personally I preferred Netflix's browser version, DRM notwithstanding.

DRM is the price that content providers ask of Netflix. Netflix is fine with that, because the alternative is less content. Browser makers are ok with that, because the alternative is fewer people on browsers and more people on native apps. I'm personally ok with that because I dislike installing apps and I prefer the browser, although most people don't have a preference.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by icebraining on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:01AM (#15282610)
So what's the benefit to consumers if streaming services abandon the web?

1. It avoids the ethical problem of pushing DRM onto people who just want a browser. (Firefox does offer a EME-free version, but you have to look for it, when you might not even know what EME is). If a CDM module installed automatically by Firefox becomes an exploit vector, they are ethically responsible, in my opinion.

2. It preserves browser competition. CDM modules only work in approved browsers, so people building new browsers are at a disadvantage. They may be able to use Firefox's sandboxed component, but it's not clear yet.

3. It avoids having second-class OSs for those browsers. For example, Firefox runs on MIPS and SPARC, but the CDM modules don't.

4. It makes it more expensive to use DRM.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by nindalf on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @09:16AM (#15284303)
> It makes it more expensive to use DRM.

This misses my point. No one cares about DRM - not the streaming service, or the browser vendors or most importantly, the users. Consumers have voted with their wallets on this - they'd rather watch Netflix than torrent.

Maybe I'm being callous, but I don't care much about "the ethical problem of pushing DRM". Nor do I care much about MIPS and SPARC. How many end users are running MIPS and SPARC anyway? And I especially don't care about it being difficult to use DRM. All of this sounds like ideological purity, which in my opinion, is a waste of time.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by icebraining on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @11:00AM (#15285228)
You asked for benefits, I listed them. I don't care that you don't care :)
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by nindalf on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @02:07AM (#15291190)
That's fair. I'm the first to admit that my personal opinion is irrelevant. I made the mistake of saying "I don't care", hoping you'd understand I meant "the vast majority doesn't care".

Could you list some benefits that would be appreciated by more than 0.1% of society?

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by barrkel on Monday September 18, 2017 @07:34PM (#15280621)
Why isn't all software native apps?

It comes down to the same set of reasons.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by icebraining on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @01:55AM (#15282118)
Most software don't have to choose between giving up DRM or not using web apps. I'm not convinced at all that their choice would be the former, especially since their clients already use native apps heavily.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by Anderkent on Monday September 18, 2017 @05:31PM (#15279791)
> In a world where browser manufacturers, as a block, refused to implement DRM, it's seems obvious that sooner or later visual media producers would be forced to the table, to gain access to paying consumers. We could be in a DRM-free world, without the inconveniences of elaborate technical restrictions on pass-through and mutual device compatibility, or black box binary blobs on otherwise open source operating systems.

Well, that, or they would have went the direction of newspapers & news - give up on producing quality content, and instead cater to the lowest common denominator by producing the cheapest, most polarising content possible.

Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by TeMPOraL on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:54AM (#15281896)
In a large way, they already do that. They produce by viewership numbers, DRM or not.
Re:W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns by doikor on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @05:53AM (#15283128)
> In a world where browser manufacturers, as a block, refused to implement DRM

This is a world where we were a couple years ago. The content providers used plugins to provide DRM for the raw video (Widevine for example) or serve the video inside a container that has DRM (flash/silverlight). One of the main reasons for flash and silverlight dying away is that browsers could do more and more of what they did. And playing video the way the content producers/distributors wanted is a big part of that.