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Re:Apple’s declining software quality by dplgk on Thursday February 04, 2016 @10:45AM (#11034661)
There's just no way in hell Steve Jobs would be putting up with this and I wish he was alive to tear some people a new one. I didn't like Jobs but respect his ability to achieve things.

Perhaps, the years of oversimplifying applications has created an Apple that can't handle complex applications?

Or, there's a chicken and egg question: XCode and the surrounding tools are atrociously buggy and hostile to the developer and it seems to increase with each release. Is this a symptom of what's going on inside Apple or a cause - perhaps Apple's own developers are dealing with the same hellish development experience and are just happy when something can compile without crashing Xcode.

Or, perhaps, at some point, software becomes too complex for humans to deal with.

Windows got so much flack over the years. It wasn't the prettiest but it worked and did what it said. Sure it BSODed sometimes and had some memory problems but it handles infinity more hardware/software/driver situations than OS X. Visual Studio is a dream, if you're into that ecosystem. MS dev tools are actually very nice.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by coldtea on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:28PM (#11036057)
>There's just no way in hell Steve Jobs would be putting up with this and I wish he was alive to tear some people a new one. I didn't like Jobs but respect his ability to achieve things.

You probably wasn't paying attention when Job was running things.

OS X 10.1 was a mess -- it took until several updates to become somewhat usable. The Finder was half-arsed for a decade. Mail.app had several issues. The Windows versions of iTunes was crappy. OS X releases that are now praised as "the best ever" etc, got tons of complaints for introducing bugs and instability. XCode has been historically crap (and it's much better now). And don't even get me started on the state of their Cloud offerings under Jobs.

Hardware wise the same. Every new release, from the original iPod to the iPad was met with complaints and bickering ("No wifi? Less space than a Nomad? Lame") -- even if it actually took wifi and batteries 5 more years to even start making practical sense to have on such a device for syncing. Aside from specs people complained about, there were also all kind of other HW issues, from the overheating G4 Cube, to the logic boards dying on G3 iBooks, to cooling goo spilling from G5 towers, the crappy "round" mouse, and lots of other stuff besides.

That said, I don't buy the "Apple software went downhill as of late" thing. First, because as said there were always issues. Second, because in normal use I don't see any particular decline. If anything things have got better, to the point where we complaint about trivial stuff. The thing is Apple of today puts out a heck of a lot more software and hardware products than the rosy Apple you remember.

I'd take iTunes in the back and kill it though -- as the latest redesigns are absolutely crap from a UX perspective. Then again, I wouldn't call that a programming quality issue -- more of a "idiotic focus and shoving on our faces of BS online music platform issue".

>Or, there's a chicken and egg question: XCode and the surrounding tools are atrociously buggy and hostile to the developer and it seems to increase with each release.

The opposite. XCode was "atrociously buggy" in the 3/4/5 era and before, and has gotten quite better in the 6/7 series (despite having to support a whole new language).

In fact a large list of early XCode 6 crashing bugs have been squashed months ago -- which was (as reported) around 90% of them.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by danieldk on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:21PM (#11036447)
That said, I don't buy the "Apple software went downhill as of late" thing. First, because as said there were always issues.

I fully agree. I jumped on the Mac and OS X bandwagon in 2007. The first few releases of Leopard (10.5) were quite hellish, because I was constantly having Wifi problems. My HP Laserjet didn't work until 10.5.2 (in 10.5.0 and 10.5.1 it would just print a few pages and get stuck). Snow Leopard was a smoother ride, but only after a couple of dot releases.

I think there was a low point around Lion and Mountain Lion (lots of new features, but they were not polished enough). But since Mavericks it's been smooth sailing for me.

People also seem to have overly romantic recollections of past Apple software. Sure, Aperture and iPhoto were killed in favor of Photos. But Aperture was crap. Version 2 was still acceptable, but 3.x had constant hangs and slowness. And they were always trailing behind badly with RAW support. As many people, I have bought Aperture 2 & 3 and switch to LightRoom pretty soon after because of Aperture's lack of polish. A while ago I tried the new Photos. And although it does not have all of Aperture's features, it's a far better application in terms of speed and user experience.

tl;dr: I don't see this drop in quality.

Of course, App Store and iTunes need to be burned down to the ground and rewritten from scratch.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by mahyarm on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:35PM (#11036539)
I agree that photos is a lot better than iPhoto & co. The performance is blazing and I migrated from lightroom to it because of it. I can't find a faster and easier to use photo library management app. Lightroom is really slow compared to it.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by dkonofalski on Thursday February 04, 2016 @07:36PM (#11038490)
You just convinced me to give Photos another chance. I absolutely hated it when they gave up on iPhoto and Aperture because I felt like I lost a lot of features if I moved to Photos. Ever since then, though, I haven't found a photo solution that works quite as well as any of the Apple products I've used in the past so I'm willing to give it another shot.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by spronkey on Saturday February 06, 2016 @06:54PM (#11050687)
Photos.app is atrocious from a UI perspective. It's an iOS app shoehorned onto OS X. How to back up your library to, oh, I don't know, an external disk? Drink the kool aid or else.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by blkhp19 on Monday February 08, 2016 @07:15PM (#11062010)
What? The UI is totally fine. Just because it's a grid of photos doesn't mean it's just "an iOS app shoehorned onto OS X." The app is written from the ground up for OS X. It's not just some basic half assed port of the iOS version. The UI is different. The editing tools are more powerful. The performance is blazingly fast. Go give the Photos app on Windows 10 a shot if you want to see what the competition is up to. That is a pathetic Windows (mobile) 10 port.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by yeukhon on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:04PM (#11036312)
> The Windows versions of iTunes was crappy.

Oh joy. I remember those days when people were angry because plugging your iPod into a new PC means wiping your library!

> That said, I don't buy the "Apple software went downhill as of late" thing.

Perception on Mac after people switch from Windows to Mac OSX immediately is awesome. The perception is different if you use Mac OSX for a long time and suddenly you see computer frozen every few days and requires a hard reboot. Many of that have to do the software you are running at the time, but why a sudden OS freeze, mouse couldn't move? That can't be a fault with Office / Skype, it has to be either a OS issue, or underlying hardware issue.

Mac OSX is generally really great, it doesn't feel slow compare to a lot of the PC out there. Polished UI and very responsive. In some release you do see slowness opening between finders or moving from one setting view to another. Those are defects people will cry and ask those defects weren't caught by the performance team.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by hussong on Thursday February 04, 2016 @03:03PM (#11036752)
Maybe the grass is greener on the other side. I was using an iMac for a couple months on a job a while back after using only Ubuntu for 5+ years and I found the whole Mac UI extremely sluggish and confusing.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by igrekel on Thursday February 04, 2016 @03:58PM (#11037167)
My main computer is an OSX both at work and at home. Honestly it isn't very responsive compared to recent lung desktops or even the latest windows 10. Or at least it mostly feels that way when using Eclipse, so maybe its the JVM.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by yeukhon on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:47PM (#11037522)
I usually think UI in most Java-based applications are very slow on Mac OSX but that's just my limited experience with Java-based UI on this platform.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by herbturbo on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:08PM (#11037230)
> The opposite. XCode was "atrociously buggy" in the 3/4/5 era and before, and has gotten quite better in the 6/7 series (despite having to support a whole new language).

Xcode 3/4 were a lot harder to work with (IB and Instruments separate, had to use Clang on command line etc), but I don't recall them being particularly buggy. Xcode 7 with Swift is the buggiest version I have used. It crashes on me 10+ times a day with all of the instant compiler checks it does. The progression from 3 to 7 is amazing, but I feel it has come at the cost of stability.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by alextgordon on Friday February 05, 2016 @01:40AM (#11039957)
Xcode 3's code completion made everything run so slowly that I had to turn it off, and for a while I just copied and pasted method names out of the Cocoa header files.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by ant6n on Thursday February 04, 2016 @10:53PM (#11039285)
I just wish one could tell xcode to stop using ALL THE CPU
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by jsz0 on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:23PM (#11037340)
> If anything things have got better

Much better in my opinion. For example they've fixed all the issues with iMessage interoperability on OSX/iOS. There are a time when if you used Messages on the Mac you had to suffer through missing messages, duplicate messages, out-of-order messages, etc. Now, as far as I can tell, it's working flawlessly. Even better that it now includes SMS messages.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by karlshea on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:37PM (#11036556)
> If anything things have got better, to the point where we complaint about trivial stuff.

This is the key. We're definitely spoiled by how solid a lot of the basics are.

I can fault them for some of the cloud service issues nowadays, but even those work better than they did in years past.

Apple has always had strange hardware and software issues, just like everyone else. Just today I was trying to buy Windows 10 to install it on a PC I'm building, and the MS storefront and my Live account couldn't sync the deletion/addition of a credit card until I logged out of everything, closed the browser, and logged back in. No one is getting this stuff working flawlessly.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by douche on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:55PM (#11036675)
Microsoft's OAuth stuff is ridiculously buggy. I've tried half a dozen times to get my Office 365 Microsoft account properly linked with my (identical email address) MSDN Microsoft account, and it's always wrong. Every time I go to login to some Microsoft OAuth site, it picks the wrong cookie, so I have to logout whatever account it thinks I'm using and login repeatedly with the right one.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by autoreleasepool on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:45PM (#11036611)
> OS X releases that are now praised as "the best ever" etc, got tons of complaints for introducing bugs and instability.

I bet it would be easy to find an "OS X is on a slippery slope..." article for each OS X release.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by Kalium on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:10PM (#11036355)
I remember the initial Windows release of Safari. Apple insisted on doing their own font rendering, and the result was blurry headache-inducing text.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by dkonofalski on Thursday February 04, 2016 @07:38PM (#11038505)
Wasn't that a Windows issue, though? I feel like font-rendering on Windows, in general, is far inferior to font-rendering and aliasing on the Mac. Especially with the new HiDPI displays popping up, Apple's stuff looks far better to me than any display I've ever seen on Windows.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by PhantomGremlin on Friday February 05, 2016 @02:01AM (#11040023)
font-rendering on Windows, in general, is far inferior to font-rendering and aliasing on the Mac

That's because Windows has to deal with so many more differences in hardware. E.g. look at these pixel-level variations in LCD screens. http://www.digitalversus.com/tv-television/screen-technology... I don't understand how it would be possible to support subpixel rendering on some of those. IIRC when I last used Windows (XP?) it let you choose from 8 different schemes. But that still wouldn't nearly be enough!

OS X and IOS can be tweaked to support a much smaller subset of that mess.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by theinternetman on Friday February 05, 2016 @01:18PM (#11043405)
They actually went back on that decision because Windows users complained so much that the text was antialiased properly.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by V-2 on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:37PM (#11037451)
That's right, the anti-aliasing didn't look good to me either. I'm sure it comes out very nicely in print.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by willyt on Friday February 05, 2016 @04:00AM (#11040366)
That's interesting because 'back in the day' the IT department accidentally installed safari on my win XP box and as a long time mac user I thought 'finally some font rendering done right'. I guess it's down to taste or it perhaps it didn't work well for screens with low pixel density or people who like really small text and ui settings.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by V-2 on Friday February 05, 2016 @07:50AM (#11041027)
People like what they're used to. I'm not in the least surprised that you happened to be a former Mac user...
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by jonknee on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:18AM (#11034942)
A lot of awful software shipped under Steve Jobs. X Code has always been a buggy mess, iTunes bloated greatly under Steve (remember Ping?), iMovie '08, etc etc.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by jpeterson on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:42AM (#11035162)
Yeah. The revisionist hero worship and sanctification of Steve Jobs has reached absurd levels since his death.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by tosseraccount on Thursday February 04, 2016 @12:35PM (#11035575)
The Cult of Steve? It think it's actually declined a little.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by l33tbro on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:12PM (#11035918)
That Isaacson book really leveled him for a lot of people.

OP is right about him not putting up with crap. Sure, not everything that came out of Cupertino was rock solid. But I think as much of an aesthete that he appears to be have been, it's also pretty evident that he was incredibly shrewd and knew he had to ship at some point.

The cruddy software might be coming from Apple repositioning itself from an innovation to a legacy brand. Acquiring Beats (can you imagine Steve championing this - lol), less of a focus on the high-end workstations for consumer electronics and watches, removing the grunt from high-end apps like Logic and FCP. Certainly no longer the underdog we root for, as the article points out.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by rpgmaker on Thursday February 04, 2016 @05:38PM (#11037859)
> That Isaacson book really leveled him for a lot of people.

To me it actually had the opposite effect: after reading it I had a newfound respect towards Apple and Jobs. The book was honest and fair, I don't know why people think it does a disservice to him since everyone knew he was an asshole. This is coming from someone that avoids Apple products, FWIW.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by marshray on Friday February 05, 2016 @12:43AM (#11039752)
That's the book that uncritically repeats Jobs' (completely bogus) claim that Apple invented the switching power supply.

http://www.righto.com/2012/02/apple-didnt-revolutionize-powe...

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by tosseraccount on Thursday February 04, 2016 @03:47PM (#11037092)
[ q.e.d. ... dang, c'mon dude. give it a rest. ]
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by xeromal on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:42AM (#11035156)
Totally forgot about Ping. I love being reminded of old "features".
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by chei0aiV on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:16PM (#11036397)
Its funny watching the announcements of these products now.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by jonknee on Thursday February 04, 2016 @05:27PM (#11037802)
I just get sad seeing Steve with meat on his bones... We watched him wither away.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by zwischenzug on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:30AM (#11035063)
iTunes was hideous. I once tried to reverse engineer the XML that stored the library and concluded it must have been designed by a distracted intern.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by pavlov on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:45AM (#11035182)
Why reverse-engineer? The format (known as "Apple XML property list") has always been openly documented:

https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Cocoa/...

There are also many libraries available to decode and encode these files in various languages.

The reason why XML property lists look this way is that they were a direct translation of the older NeXT "property list" format, which was sort of like binary JSON. Dumping an alternating list of keys and values isn't pretty XML, but it ensured minimum translation headaches from the old format.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by zwischenzug on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:15PM (#11037276)
Right, so technical debt then.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by greggman on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:57PM (#11036256)
It's still hideous. Case in point, although this is a combination of things I guess but, when I upgraded to a iPhone6S+ 2 months ago I backed up my 5s in iTunes then restored on the 6S+. 22 apps could not be restored, among them 6 of Apple's own apps.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by vannevar on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:27PM (#11036486)
Yes, good software applications from Apple have been the historical exception rather than the rule. Great hardware, good OS, mediocre software for the most part. This reflects the company's priorities as a hardware vendor: they make very little money from software, and hence have little direct incentive to put a lot of resources into it.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by leetNightshade on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:56PM (#11036682)
I don't agree with great hardware, if we're talking about durability and easily fixable. At least the Macbook line seems designed to fail after a number of years or be too expensive to continue fixing in favor of buying a new one. Apple products, besides the high end desktops, seem disposable, no matter how well made it looks.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by freehunter on Thursday February 04, 2016 @03:28PM (#11036930)
Years is still a long time to measure the lifespan of a laptop. Plenty of less-expensive laptops fail at the one-year mark, some fail at two, some laptops equally as expensive as a Macbook will fail before five years are up. Some Macs fail before five years, some last beyond that.

And five years is a long time when it comes to computers.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by pbreit on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:48AM (#11035199)
Jobs didn't care about Xcode. iTunes was decent or even good. He hated social and reluctantly allowed Ping to go forward. iMovie is a tiny niche.

I agree with OP. There is no way Steve would have allowed some of the current stuff to see the light of day.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by jonknee on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:59AM (#11035285)
iLife was very important to Steve, he dedicated a lot of time demoing the apps on stage. He was a huge fan of ripping out all the features of iMovie.

Same with iTunes (which has gotten a ton of criticism over the years), he was the one that kept cramming everything under the sun into it.

I don't know if he was as passionate about X Code, but he sure liked to brag about having the best development environment. Interface Builder in particular seems right out of Steve Jobs' brain (even if it sucks).

Here he is introducing X Code: https://youtu.be/Rh5spZrzu6c?t=59m3s

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by gearoidoc on Thursday February 04, 2016 @03:13PM (#11036811)
Interface Builder is superb once you get the hang of it.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by rqebmm on Thursday February 04, 2016 @03:27PM (#11036922)
It does a great job of getting you from zero to an app, but it breaks down terribly once you try to do anything custom with it. The fact that it hides code from the developer drives me nuts.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by gearoidoc on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:25PM (#11037358)
Well it depends what you mean by custom. I create custom views all the time and its even better now we can render them 'live' in IB:

https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/recipes/xcode_help-I...

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by rqebmm on Friday February 05, 2016 @12:23AM (#11039680)
Ooh I forgot about that feature. It does at least answer my big problem with IB: you execute code you didn't write and can't read. I'll have to give live rendering another look.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by jonknee on Thursday February 04, 2016 @05:31PM (#11037832)
I won't start a religious war here, but IB is awesome in demos and less awesome in real world. Versioning alone is enough to make you go crazy (especially back in the .nib days!).
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by gearoidoc on Thursday February 04, 2016 @06:09PM (#11038019)
I understand both sides of the argument - it took me considerable time to wrap me head around IB and for the longest time I just assumed I simply wouldn't "get it".

Interested to how you do versioning on UI with or without IB though. Personally I just maintain branches until an agreed upon design is in place.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by agumonkey on Thursday February 04, 2016 @12:32PM (#11035553)
There are old videos of him speaking about development environment at NeXT (against Sun). Sir Steve did like allowing 'creation'.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by Alupis on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:52AM (#11035223)
> iTunes was decent or even good

You clearly never used iTunes for Windows.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by tbyehl on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:38PM (#11036115)
| You clearly never used iTunes for Windows.

IME, every terrible thing about iTunes applies equally to both platforms.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by 2muchcoffeeman on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:28PM (#11037390)
It's worse on Windows. The Windows version would hash file names or something. Probably to get the search features working. So once you imported your files you didn't know what was what. The Mac version probably just uses spotlight and file names were always readable.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by tbyehl on Thursday February 04, 2016 @08:45PM (#11038811)
My iTunes library has made several round-trips across platforms and I've never encountered anything like that. My music, apps, books, and podcast files all have consistent, readable naming schemes.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by JustSomeNobody on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:11PM (#11035909)
iTunes sucks everywhere. And it's a horrible UX that it's needed for syncing an iPhone. A better UX would be just to plug it in and move things around.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by addicted on Thursday February 04, 2016 @12:25PM (#11035485)
iTunes was awesome on Windows when it came out (until about 4.0?). Compared to its contemporaries, Music Match, which was a bloated piece of junk, and Winamp 2.x which while awesome, had a steep learning curve to get really useful (J for the win) and had an extremely unpleasant UI.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by Alupis on Thursday February 04, 2016 @12:45PM (#11035657)
> iTunes was awesome on Windows when it came out

It forced a bundled QuickTime install (still does I believe), and back then, it tried hard to become the default media player on your system (even reverting your "no" choice after updates). This led many people to remove QuickTime, only to discover now their iTunes refused to work. It would fail halfway through sync's and upgrades of iDevices routinely, had a generally pretty buggy interface that wasn't very responsive most of the time. It's iDevice backup process was cumbersome for normal users, and often failed without the user knowing (leading to very upset individuals when they needed to restore but couldn't).

Now it seems every new version redesigns the UI in major ways, causing even long term users to not know what to click, etc...

If you really just listen to music, maybe it's fine. For all other purposes, it was/is horrible, however I can't complain because it generated quite a lot of work for my side repair/contract business back then.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by baldfat on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:42PM (#11036594)
> iTunes was awesome on Windows when it came out

Whip the Lama's A WinAmp is still better.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by vacri on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:56PM (#11036683)
I had whatever version was around when the video ipods came around (and a bodgy bit of hardware that was). I couldn't sort videos the way I wanted to - itunes says that that file extension means "tv episode" instead of "movie"? Sorry, it's a tv episode. Not to mention the terrible UI with tiny targets that doesn't blend in with the user's desktop theming. Maybe that was v4+, but all I remember is hating to use itunes (including managing updates as already mentioned)
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by blakeyrat on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:28PM (#11037386)
The software that went with Microsoft's Zune media player was amazingly good. Sadly, even though it was available separate from the Zune hardware, almost nobody downloaded and tried it.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by danso on Thursday February 04, 2016 @12:00PM (#11035289)
You clearly have never read his biography ;)

via an All Things D event:

> What’s more, thanks to the popularity of iTunes on PCs, Apple has become a major Windows software developer. “We’ve got cards and letters from lots of people who say that iTunes is their favorite app on Windows,” noted Jobs. “It’s like giving a glass of ice water to somebody in Hell.”

That quip apparently caused Bill Gates to become quite angry:

https://books.google.com/books?id=6e4cDvhrKhgC&lpg=PA463&ots...

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by jonknee on Thursday February 04, 2016 @12:06PM (#11035351)
Steve Jobs publicly mentioning only praise about things Steve Jobs made? Unbelievable!
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by cheald on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:19PM (#11036432)
I can only conclude that the people sending such letters had only previously used GTK+ apps on Windows or something.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by lmm on Thursday February 04, 2016 @12:13PM (#11035400)
That may have been by design.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by ChrisArgyle on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:06PM (#11035851)
Don't forget early OS X. So slow it was nearly unusable until performance improvements in 10.3.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by mixmastamyk on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:15PM (#11035937)
Improvements of a new OS are happily received. However, we're talking about the reverse, deterioration of mature products.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by coldtea on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:35PM (#11036103)
What mature products deteriorated (apart from iTunes) and in what concrete ways?

Mail is much better than it was even a year ago, XCode too, the OS is stable...

And FCPX didn't deteriorate over 7 -- it was a written-from-scratch reboot of the platform that just happened to cut some features people used (most got back with a vengeance).

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by mixmastamyk on Thursday February 04, 2016 @03:19PM (#11036865)
There a number of examples in the surrounding threads. I find most software getting worse these days on all platforms. See CADT: https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by st3v3r on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:50PM (#11037559)
And most of that is simply looking at the past with rose tinted glasses.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by munificent on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:28PM (#11036053)
> the years of oversimplifying applications has created an Apple that can't handle complex applications?

Ah, you've fallen for the illusion. Those "simple" Mac apps you love are fantastically complex to implement. It's the user experience that is simple, and it takes a ton of sophisticated engineering to pull that off.

You can think of it as there being a certain fixed amount of complexity in the user attaining some goal. You can make your software simpler by foisting the complexity on to the user: just make them do all of the nit-picky tasks.

If you want to make it simple for them to achieve their goal, your app is going to have to contain that complexity itself.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by bsbechtel on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:37AM (#11035114)
>>Or, perhaps, at some point, software becomes too complex for humans to deal with.

I'd say rather that things need to be simplified and features removed in order to improve quality. Every new Mac or iOS release touts XXX number of new features. If you want to offer the best products, having more features isn't necessarily a prerequisite.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by lubonay on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:43AM (#11035165)
I can't upvote this enough. So many products have been ruined by feature creep, it's sad to even think about it...
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by abakker on Thursday February 04, 2016 @12:36PM (#11035584)
Its interesting to think about - is feature creep uniquely in the domain of software? I don't think so. There is plenty of software that has been immune to it (think everyday developer tools, command line stuff, etc). Often the apps with the least amount of feature creep are the ones where they are bounded by the APIs they talk to, i.e. if the API (which they don't control) is static, they can't really add any more features.

Outside of software, we see a similar thing, a wrench (or spanner) hasn't gotten many new features, because the bolt that it turns isn't changing. the goal is roughly the same. The only appreciable changes have been in ergonomics, and even these are effectively static.

On the other hand, we have cars, which are suffering from so much feature creep it is unbelievable. every year, car engines get a little bit more efficient, but they also get heavier, bloated with more systems, infotainment, seat adjustments, window adjustments, etc.As a result, the efficiency of the improved powertrain seldom makes appreciable performance difference. (yes, there are outliers).

Cars then, might be the equivalent of "the ultimate app" which does everything for you, but loses sight of its purpose. Meanwhile, we have a long history of leaving single tools alone, and they tend to work great.

The trouble is that in the world of physical tools, the workflow changes/context switching between using one tool and then another is easy. Meanwhile, in software, feature creep ends up being the solution for poor context switching between apps. In an ideal world, working on an image in photoshop and then pixelmator, and then illustrator, and then publishing to wordpress would be as seamless as using a wrench, then a screwdriver, and then cleaning things up with a rag. Unfortunately, software interface constraints almost necessitate feature creep as the "simplest" way to add functionality, even when convoluted menus, hotkeys, and naming conventions obscure utility.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by sushisource on Thursday February 04, 2016 @12:55PM (#11035745)
Awesome analogy about context switching. It's definitely true. The "unix philosophy" never really worked well for GUIs and that's been a big problem for composability.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by abakker on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:46PM (#11036620)
Interestingly, the Unix philosophy works great in machine to machine communications. It is pretty excellent at handling the needs of the IoT and distributed systems, networks, sensors, etc. You hit the nail on the head about GUIs.

Ironically, it is the "handoff" features that Apple was traditionally best at. BUT, I have this feeling that most of what we hate can be described as "too little, too soon". After all, it could be argued that Apple is aiming for an environment which is "document focused" with their focus on standardized APIs (Adobe is working on this, too), but none of this works yet, because software is still written from an "Apps" POV. In the real world, we change the tool relative to the job, and the best tools are specific single tasks. given the experience so far, I'm far from convinced that a 2D GUI should ever try duplicate that.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by bsbechtel on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:00PM (#11035796)
I think it boils down to asking what the product is actually for, or rather, what fundamental human need does it solve? That's a rather tough answer for computers, but for cars it's easy - getting from point A to point B. Every modification to a car is in pursuit of either making the job more efficient or making the job easier/more comfortable for the customer.

I think the fact that the answer is so tough for computers is why feature creep is so common with software. When your tool can literally do anything you want it to, why say no? The constraints are actually in the mind of the customer.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by abakker on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:20PM (#11037323)
This is very good point. The constraints are in the mind of the customer, but also in the UI. i.e. a panorama viewing app is not great in vertical orientation on an iPhone. There are physical as well as mental constraints in the UI of a computer.

On the topic of cars, it is true that modifications strive toward comfort, but they also strive for marketability. While a leather-wrapped dashboard may be comfortable to look at, it is primarily focused at adding something to market. This same phenomenon exhibits in software, where features are added to increase marketability, "Look! this ERP software has a social network built in!". The utility of a given feature is often perspective-based, especially when the user is not well aware of their actual needs, or the user and purchaser are not the same person.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by cmurf on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:21PM (#11036445)
I agree, feature creep is not unique to software. Look at cars. Creep is just made worse now that they can run software.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by sago on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:44PM (#11036605)
Plenty of product are ruined because they don't allow you to do that one thing you really need to do.

Feature creep is necessary for closed applications.

The ideal is a set of simple tools around a simple and open file format. As soon as you lock in folks to your application (as Apple loves to do), you're on the hook for being all things to all people, or getting panned that your software is only for the lightest casual usel

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by seivan on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:40PM (#11036130)
They (Designers and Product people) will one day learn that the single greatest feature and design, the most objective one is raw speed.

Always go faster for a long time. Meaning tackle long aged hardware, long uptime, and just generally maintain same performance. Across everything, from device hardware and speed locally on the device to the wifi/4G signals, ISP, to the backend and their software and hardware. Performance in speed is the greatest subjective design and feature.

Unfortunately the time to invest in it requires convincing the designer and product that integrating A/B tests for hearts vs star for favoriting isn't worth it for the long run.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by gherkin0 on Thursday February 04, 2016 @03:15PM (#11036829)
> I'd say rather that things need to be simplified and features removed in order to improve quality.

I'd say they need to fix the features they've implemented, and only release new features when they're fully cooked.

Removing features is terrible: it is not an improvement to me when my stuff breaks or when I'm forced into a dumbed-down, lowest-common-denominator use-case.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by randomacct44 on Thursday February 04, 2016 @08:42PM (#11038799)
It's funny -- on the one hand, people SAY they want this (only fully cooked new features). Yet everyone is really quick to jump up and down and complain and bash $company for lacking innovation when their new OS or the next version of their software comes out and the focus has been on stability/bug fixes.

Not just Wall-Street types either; I see this primarily from tech people. Examples: Android M, OS X Snow Leopard (I think, I may have that release wrong but there was one there that was definitely 'not many new features'), basically anything where the next version isn't predominantly new shiny.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by ktRolster on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:25AM (#11035012)
> There's just no way in hell Steve Jobs would be putting up with this

Maybe. I felt like the quality started going downhill shortly after iOS came out, starting with low-level APIs, then xcode, then making it into user-level applications.

My theory is that a lot of the really experienced engineers (the one who started with NEXT and OpenStep) left when they were rich after the iPhone stock jump.

So really there is nothing Steve Jobs could have done unless he had a developer education program or something.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by k-mcgrady on Thursday February 04, 2016 @12:11PM (#11035386)
>> "My theory is that a lot of the really experienced engineers (the one who started with NEXT and OpenStep) left when they were rich after the iPhone stock jump."

While possible true I think the real issue is resources being spread too thin. Remember they had to delay the release os OS X one year as all their engineers were working on iOS? Now they're doing yearly releases of both OS's. I'm sure they've hired more engineers but pre-iOS there were probably lots of engineers who had been working exclusively on OS X for years and were able to maintain quality. New people take time to get up to speed.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by addicted on Thursday February 04, 2016 @12:22PM (#11035467)
I agree. I don't think this is a Steve Jobs thing at all. In fact, I think post Steve Jobs Apple actually pays a lot more lip service to better software than they did before.

I simply think the attempts to build stuff in common with iOS is taking its toll.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by biot on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:25PM (#11036021)
Aren't you contradicting yourself? If post-Jobs they only pay lip service to quality but with Jobs they actually took action, doesn't that suggest Jobs may have been a positive influence on quality?
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by addicted on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:21PM (#11036441)
I think the action they take is about the same. They pay more lip service these days. I wouldn't be surprised if they are actually putting more work into better quality these days, but stuff is just more complex (e.g., everything is cloud based. Imagine OSX today, except running MobileMe, .Mac, etc. as the cloud backend instead of iCloud, which while it has its issues, is way better than those disasters).
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by biot on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:00PM (#11037183)
Ah ok... maybe you have a different usage, but "lip service" is used to indicate "all talk, no action". So paying more lip service to something means they're churning out more empty words without the activity to back it up.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by _pmf_ on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:44PM (#11036164)
> There's just no way in hell Steve Jobs would be putting up with this and I wish he was alive to tear some people a new one.

Steve Jobs, Steve Jobs ... that's the guy with the skeuomorphic preferences, right? The one who, at the first iPhone release, told developers that they don't need native apps because using HTML + WebView is enough, right?

Just to make sure we're on the same page here.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by elsurudo on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:59PM (#11036273)
Not everybody hates skeumorphism, especially when not taken to an extreme (okay, Apple under Jobs often did take it to an extreme... like the leather Calendar app). But skeumorphism, when used properly, provides affordances and hints to the user.

> told developers that they don't need native apps because using HTML + WebView is enough

That's because the SDK wasn't ready for developers yet. You must remember that, first and foremost, Jobs was a great salesman. If you don't yet sell it, it's a piece of crap and unnecessary, right? And when you _do_ sell it, it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by doomlaser on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:12PM (#11036370)
No, they weren't going to do a public SDK, until after the huge sustained public outcry.

I understand the plan was to work with select third parties on a case by case basis, sort of akin to standalone game consoles.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by macintux on Thursday February 04, 2016 @03:10PM (#11036793)
I hear that repeated a lot, but I haven't seen any real evidence to back it up.

It seems equally plausible, especially given how quickly they announced the SDK after the iPhone release, that Apple was preparing for it but not ready yet (and/or wanted to give themselves time to work out the early kinks in all of the other parts: working with AT&T, supporting the new device and new OS, etc, etc).

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by doomlaser on Thursday February 04, 2016 @07:34PM (#11038471)
It was reported in the Isaacson biography:

"Apple board member Art Levinson told Isaacson that he phoned Jobs “half a dozen times to lobby for the potential of the apps,” but, according to Isaacson, “Jobs at first quashed the discussion, partly because he felt his team did not have the bandwidth to figure out all the complexities that would be involved in policing third-party app developers.”

Apple had already established a model for selling third party software on the iPod video line through iTunes -- with select partners only.

When WWDC 2007 rolled around, after the release of the iPhone, Jobs presented web apps as the solution for developers, without the need for an SDK. It was only after months of sustained outcry from the development community, and the nascent jailbreaking scene, that Jobs announced that they would prepare a public SDK for the next year, after they decided on a method of signing and sandboxing applications.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by macintux on Thursday February 04, 2016 @08:39PM (#11038790)
None of which contradicts my thesis: that it wasn't rejected, but that Apple wasn't ready at the time of release to undertake the task of opening it to all comers.

The supposition that it was only due to the outcry of the development community is exactly that, a supposition.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by doomlaser on Friday February 05, 2016 @07:51AM (#11041032)
According to an Apple board member it was rejected internally by Jobs himself.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by r00fus on Thursday February 04, 2016 @06:10PM (#11038023)
What was amazing was the '07 jailbreak experience was like 1000% better than what I'd experienced with Palm or WinMobile.. tap, tap, app appeared on home screen with a "lickable" loading progress bar.

I seriously doubt that jailbreakers invented the smooth experience - they just likely unlocked the functionality that existed before Apple was ready to push it out (I'm guessing Steve wanted apps in the store at launch).

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by muddi900 on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:04PM (#11039321)
Yeah the UI assets had to be there in the first place. Compared to SBSettings, the jailbreak era control center, which looked like someone taped together the buttons, and it becomes apparent that Job's statement was just salesmanship.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by elsurudo on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:51PM (#11036639)
Oh really. That, I wasn't aware of. Well, at least they saw the cash cow that the App Store could become at some point, and acted. It's good to change your mind when new information comes to light.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by rmc on Thursday February 04, 2016 @03:31PM (#11036956)
I suspect people rooting and writing their own apps pushed them as well. If they didn't control the 3rd party apps, other people would.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by eric_h on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:01PM (#11036292)
I'm rather firmly convinced that the "they don't need native apps" was Jobs merely stalling til the SDK was stable enough to release to the public.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by st3v3r on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:57PM (#11037606)
"The one who, at the first iPhone release, told developers that they don't need native apps because using HTML + WebView is enough, right?"

Nowadays we have plenty of people complaining that they have to have "apps" for everything when they have a perfectly good web browser on their phone, so he wasn't that far off.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by kps on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:17AM (#11034934)
For OS X, the decline began under Jobs with 10.7. I'd always assumed it was simply that Apple no longer cared about computers; in Jobs' own words, “milk the Macintosh for all it's worth and get busy on the next great thing.”
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by coldtea on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:40PM (#11036128)
>For OS X, the decline began under Jobs with 10.7

So what issues do you have with 10.11? Because I don't see anything to complain about. Then again, I also didn't see anything troubling in 10.10, 10.9 and 10.8, with the exception of their ill-fated transition to a new DNS backend, which they later reverted.

A few bugs here and there, yes. Nothing I haven't seen since 10.2, or that's not comparable to the kind of issues I have with Windows 10 or the Ubuntu box I use for development (actually that's far worse, but I digress).

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by thenewwazoo on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:11PM (#11037246)
I'll take a crack at that:

- UI non-responsiveness: it is extraordinarily frequent that I will chord a tab change in Safari or in iTerm2, and the system will not respond for sometimes multiple seconds. It's the same with creating tabs in Safari. ⌘-t or ⌘-{ do not respond.

- Application switching focus failures: ⌘-tab will raise another window, but window focus will not follow. This has caused me to lose work. ⌘-tab, ⌘-w will sometimes close an iTerm2 tab that's behind the Safari window I'm looking at.

- Mouse pointer lag: Probably related to the input lag above, the trackpad will not respond for multiple seconds after I begin touching it. If I "wake" it with a two-finger scroll, it will often lose half the input and instead click.

- AirPlay stuttering: even two ethernet-wired systems will still lose data between them. It's a crappy experience.

- discoveryd: My Apple TV's network name is currently "Apple TV (5)". Macs sometimes do this too.

- Slow laptop wakeup: I almost always have to tap a keyboard key to wake the display after opening my laptops (MBr and MBPr). Almost always. But not always.

That's just off the top of my head. Many of these have followed me between OS X revisions and different hardware. It amazes me that such bugs stick around.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by wlesieutre on Thursday February 04, 2016 @08:01PM (#11038630)
As I read your comment I was thinking "Huh, I've never seen those focus failures on Mac, but they happen to me on Windows at work all the time."

Then I clicked Chrome in the dock, hit Cmd-Q, and watched Safari disappear while Chrome opened a new window. Guess it's not just you.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by coldtea on Friday February 05, 2016 @09:46AM (#11041676)
>UI non-responsiveness: it is extraordinarily frequent that I will chord a tab change in Safari or in iTerm2, and the system will not respond for sometimes multiple seconds. It's the same with creating tabs in Safari. ⌘-t or ⌘-{ do not respond.

Ok, for this I can't say much, because every since 2010 or so I've used Chrome in place of Safari. As for iTerm2, I've tried to switch to it several times over the years (later mostly because of Tmux integration) but always found it to be buggy and reverted to the Terminal.

>Application switching focus failures: ⌘-tab will raise another window, but window focus will not follow. This has caused me to lose work. ⌘-tab, ⌘-w will sometimes close an iTerm2 tab that's behind the Safari window I'm looking at.

Hmm, haven't seen this -- and I use ⌘-tab and the ~ variant heavily.

I have seen lagginess in focus when switching full-screen apps use, and I sometimes start typing before that happens. This got a little better in 10.11 though (either faster focus switch or less transition time).

>- discoveryd: My Apple TV's network name is currently "Apple TV (5)". Macs sometimes do this too.

DNS issues I've had (and mentioned in another comment). They tried a transition to a new DNS backend which was buggy. They reverted back to the old one with 10.11 (or sometime in 10.10.x) though and has been OK since then.

>Slow laptop wakeup: I almost always have to tap a keyboard key to wake the display after opening my laptops (MBr and MBPr). Almost always. But not always.

Do see this from time to time (though it almost always works in my case).

Could be a sensor issue though -- not a software thing (the display up sensor not registering, but tap working ok).

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by terinjokes on Friday February 05, 2016 @12:24PM (#11042916)
I see the input focus lags behind the UI after cmd-tab almost every day, for AG least the last two OS releases.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by ninkendo on Friday February 05, 2016 @01:41AM (#11039960)
Just a quick nitpick: discoveryd was reverted on the last release... OSX is back using mDNSResponder again. You can't really say "It amazes me that such bugs stick around" if you're not actually on the newest version.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by thenewwazoo on Friday February 05, 2016 @12:43PM (#11043096)
True, I conflated tvOS with OS X here, but it's still software by Apple.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by oneeyedpigeon on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:07PM (#11036336)
Caveat: i havent used it on my main machine yet, so a lot of this is impressionistic; feel free to correct.

Still a total disregard of Fitt's law. Horribly inconsistent keyboard support. Behaviour that should be trivially configurable seemingly set in stone. Still, I think, impossible to cut a file in Finder. However many shots that take, apple can't get WiFi working properly. The transparency is an abomination.

If you want something more 'big picture', I think all the changes introduced over the lifetime of OSX have been a bit piecemeal with no overall, unifying process. For example, full-screen mode gets bolted on, rather than nicely integrated with other window actions. Notifications blossom into a side panel, but there's an overlap with bouncing icons in the dock. Etc. There are some great ideas there, but we could really do with an OS11 that picks the best ones and presents them together, in a clean interface, in which they all belong.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by coldtea on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:30PM (#11036506)
>Still a total disregard of Fitt's law. Horribly inconsistent keyboard support. Behaviour that should be trivially configurable seemingly set in stone. Still, I think, impossible to cut a file in Finder. The transparency is an abomination.

Well, those are not software quality issues. Some of those are design decisions, and have been with us forever, not random accidents: "Cut", for example, has never been on the Mac. Transparency in 10.11 is so lightweight you don't even notice it -- nothing Vista-like about it.

As for "total disregard of Fitt's law" that's not some decline either, as it's not worse or better than it has ever been in OS X.

>However many shots that take, apple can't get WiFi working properly.

Well, that qualifies as buggy software. But I have to wonder.

I've had an iBook, 2 MacBookPros (1 company issued), an iMac, a MacBook Pro Retina (current), 2 iPads and 2 iPhones thus far. And I've travelled all over the US, Europe and in several parts of Asia. I've never had any trouble with wifi, even to non-chain, el-cheapo motels.

The only offender has been my iPhone(s), which indeed I've not been able to connect to 3-4 places (restaurants etc) while traveling, over many hundreds of locations over 8 years. And I can't even know if it was because of the iPhone crapping out, or they using some crappy, third party router.

So I wonder, what are all those wi-fi issues people mention in forums etc.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by FireBeyond on Thursday February 04, 2016 @08:33PM (#11038759)
""Cut", for example, has never been on the Mac. "

Apple Notes would like a word with you. Specifically the word 'Cut' under the Edit menu.

Apple Calendar would also like the word with you.

Terminal. Script Editor.

Not sure how you come to some conclusion that Cut is not "on the Mac".

My Apple devices regularly need me to switch WiFi off and on, in my home which has an Airport Extreme and Express, both with latest firmware.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by nikdaheratik on Thursday February 04, 2016 @09:33PM (#11039020)
In context, they mean "cut" as a way to move a file from one place to another, not related to text which seems to be what you are talking about.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by coldtea on Friday February 05, 2016 @09:33AM (#11041619)
>Not sure how you come to some conclusion that Cut is not "on the Mac".

We're talking about Cut for files (in the Finder), not inside apps.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by parasubvert on Saturday February 06, 2016 @11:26AM (#11048322)
>And I've travelled all over the US, Europe and in several parts of Asia. I've never had any trouble with wifi, even to non-chain, el-cheapo motels. So I wonder, what are all those wi-fi issues people mention in forums etc.

I agree with this 98%, with the exception of early releases of Yosemite, which really did seem to have a WiFi problem on the rMBP (even with Apple Airport Extreme base stations), in that it would disconnect a lot and you'd have to recycle your WiFi off/on. Annoying but not a deal breaker. And fixed within a month or two.

Otherwise I'd suspect there are some hardware + driver variations of Macbooks that may have had issues for others.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by wlesieutre on Thursday February 04, 2016 @07:57PM (#11038606)
If you want "Cut" functionality in Finder, you can Copy (cmd-C) followed by Move Item Here (cmd-opt-V). It's non-obvious, but it's there.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by marshray on Friday February 05, 2016 @12:50AM (#11039771)
So Cmd-C Copy can retroactively remove the file instead of copying it?

I think you're proving his case rather well.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by wlesieutre on Friday February 05, 2016 @09:41AM (#11041654)
Compare to Windows where it's called "Cut" but is really "Copy and mark for maybe deleting if you paste later". It doesn't remove files when they go to the clipboard (which is what cut does literally anywhere else).

And then Paste becomes a destructive operation that deletes your original files, or if you prefer, paste turns into "Move Item Here."

They've taken two different approaches to avoiding accidental data loss by overwriting the clipboard, but I wouldn't say one is inherently more right than the other. Windows makes new actions but has the interface pretend that it's doing the same thing as normal cut and paste. OS X makes the UI less standard, but describes what's being done more explicitly.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by masklinn on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:37AM (#11035116)
10.7 was a pretty low point, but OSX quality has been inconsistent throughout, with a few high points late in release cycles. And it's always panned in .0 releases (same historical issue with initial hardware revisions).
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by msvan on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:02PM (#11035815)
Context: that's a quote from 1996.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by lips on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:45PM (#11036171)
Seems like many people are not making enough of the distinction between choices and bugs. Sure there are bugs in lots of stuff, and that's an entirely valid conversation, but there's also a layer of confounding choices. Some make sense from an "corporate" perspective, some...

-iTunes bloat is a choice, and bugs.

-Mail.app is mostly bugs. (non-standard .mbox was a choice)

-Final Cut X was a choice.

-Eschewing strong AppleScript support in native applications is a choice.

-The app store(s) are a choice.

-Allowing core utilities like Contacts and iCal to stagnate and be outshone by 3rd parties (BusyMac) was a choice.

-Aperture+iPhoto=Photos was a choice. (So was selling Aperture after it was EOLed)

-FFF

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by wlesieutre on Thursday February 04, 2016 @08:17PM (#11038702)
> The app store(s) are a choice.

In that case, allow me to summarize some of the choices that went into building the Mac App Store.

- It's a web view. No local caching of layout or anything. If your network connection hiccups, instead of a reasonably rendered error message, you get this: http://i.imgur.com/5xNgwMH.png

- Text in the search box is blurry. I'm not 100% sure why, but I think someone made a choice to render it with its y-position at a half pixel increment. And then nudge it down so it comes into focus when you click on it. Because really, what sort of asshole would still be using a low DPI screen? http://i.imgur.com/gj3mqrz.png

- How many Install buttons does an update need? Eh, let's choose two. Two's a nice number. And have that "Update All" button stick around even though all updates were already installed. https://i.imgur.com/p9QoCqZ.png

- Earlier today, though it didn't lend itself to screenshots, my Xcode "Install" vs "Installing" button that couldn't decide what mode it wanted to be in and just bounced back and forth instead. Why choose one when you can be both!

- The "Check for Unfinished Downloads" menu. Do you know what happens when a download doesn't finish? Or why it's not presented in a sane way in the normal UI? Me neither. Instead of gracefully handling errors, let's choose to bury them in a secret menu that people will happen upon via StackOverflow searches when their installation keeps failing with no indication of why. https://i.imgur.com/xkgP0lc.png

A+ design work right there. Excellent choices.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by lips on Saturday February 06, 2016 @11:29AM (#11048340)
This is exactly my point. Apple has been making these choices for a while, but they're being swept into a convo about bugs, and thus capacity/engineering. I think atp.fm dip into this for a second in their most recent (yesterday) podcast episode.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by jad on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:30PM (#11036069)
> There's just no way in hell Steve Jobs would be putting up with this

Says everyone who disagrees with any decision Apple makes. "Steve would have had the same opinion about this I do!" Statements like this are just you projecting your own opinion onto him.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by ssharp on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:01AM (#11034801)
OSX doesn't need to handle that many hardware and driver issues, so I don't see how that's relevant to a Windows comparison.

I've been using OSX since just after Panther. I generally agree with the idea that some things started getting worse after Snow Leopard, but I still don't think it's come close to a point where I'd actually move back to Windows or try out desktop Linux.

And I'd say Windows had far more issues that BSODs and memory problems. I've used Window for music production for years (by the time I switched everyday stuff to OSX, I was locked into my music workflow and haven't cared to spend the time learning a new package like Logic, even after all these years). The way I survive Windows problems is pretty simple: never plug in an ethernet cable. I'm sure things are far better now, but for a large part of the past 15 years, doing so opened you up to a lot of problems and required utilizing software you simply should not have to install in order to have a functional system.

Also, a high percentage of OSX users have no idea what XCode is, let alone care if it's not as nice as VisualStudio.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by koralatov on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:04AM (#11034834)
It's sad that so many people, myself very much included, now stick with OS X merely because ``it's not quite shitty enough to switch''. When I switched to the Mac initially, I switched because it was vastly better option than XP; now, I feel that lead has been eroded and that Windows 10, while different, isn't far behind OS X in most respects.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by leviathant on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:32AM (#11035076)
As far as workflow and window management goes, OS X is a good half decade behind Windows, and in a lot of system-level ways, it feels a decade behind. I use a MBP Retina at work, and it feels primitive compared to Windows 10, which I use everywhere else. Everywhere else, I'm doing audio, video, and photo editing though. If your day to day work is more CLI and *nix oriented, I can understand the appeal of OSX... although some of the variations of Vim that I see people running might as well be GUIs.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by zimpenfish on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:26AM (#11035019)
Windows 10 is -in my limited experience- awful. Admittedly I don't use it for much more than gaming, light browsing, and occasional ssh sessions but it's painful to use, the apps aren't great, and it frequently craps out with weird error messages (e.g. "The required TCP protocols not installed on this machine" actually meant "The NAS isn't responding").
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by tonyedgecombe on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:33AM (#11035086)
I've found the opposite, its been rock solid for me.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by ssharp on Thursday February 04, 2016 @12:06PM (#11035352)
I switched to OSX originally because the company I was working for was all-Apple. I probably wouldn't have thought XP was shitty enough to change otherwise, even though it obviously was.

Conversely, I'm now working at a company that's all-MS, but even after two years now (albeit, only a month on W10, previously on W7), I'm still not feeling much of a desire to switch to Windows at home. My Macbook is getting pretty old now and I'm going to want to replace it sometime soon and it's going to be another MBP.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by blakeyrat on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:40PM (#11037475)
The funny thing is I actually switched from OS X to Windows XP, primarily because Apple made me angry when they refused to do anything to continue Classic app support. (If I'm going to lose all of my favorite apps anyway and have to start over, might as well start over on the OS that has 10 times more apps, right?) (Also, I still hold a grudge over the "free forever" .Mac service.)

I wouldn't say Windows 10 is behind OS X at all. In some contexts, like a corporate workplace, it's at least a decade ahead, and always has been. (Then again, Apple and Mac fans generally discount that environment entirely.)

The biggest problem Windows 10 has are: 1. Crummy HighDPI support (and yes, they've been working on this, but the work is WAY too slow-- this should have been solved 5 years ago, guys) 2. Crummy third-party apps, made by developers who have no respect for the OS or its users 3. The new "constantly updates, and occasional ads" philosophy Windows 10 is taking. I wouldn't even mind the ads much if they weren't so stupid. (Stop trying to sell me the copy of Office 365 I ALREADY OWN!)

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by lmm on Thursday February 04, 2016 @12:51PM (#11035709)
> The way I survive Windows problems is pretty simple: never plug in an ethernet cable. I'm sure things are far better now, but for a large part of the past 15 years, doing so opened you up to a lot of problems and required utilizing software you simply should not have to install in order to have a functional system.

I don't think that's really true. From 2K onwards windows was pretty solid if you kept it up to date. I never used any firewall/antivirus/etc., just disabled unneeded services (admittedly the defaults in 2K and XP were poor), didn't run executables attached to suspicious emails etc.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by ktRolster on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:28AM (#11035035)
>Also, a high percentage of OSX users have no idea what XCode is, let alone care if it's not as nice as VisualStudio.

I really liked XCode, a lot more than Visual Studio, until they remade it to look like iTunes (around 2012).

So there is definitely some preference involved for those people who say Visual Studio is better (and of course, vice versa).

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by to3m on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:03PM (#11035825)
Xcode 4 was a definite backward step in UX terms, in my view, from which the product has yet to recover. Xcode 4 has the dubious distinction of being one of only a handful of products that I've used daily for a good period - in Xcode 4's case, 20 months - without ever finding a way that I could be happy using them.

(Sometimes I just throw my hands up and decide that something, whatever it is, is just never going to be my cup of tea, and that's that. I've done that with a few software packages and/or styles of working. But in Xcode's case, I'm pretty sure it's them, not me. Because Xcode 3 was fine...)

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by ATsch on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:13AM (#11034899)
Regarding your last point about many people not knowing what XCode is: I assume GP was theorizing that Apple's declining software quality is related or even in part caused by their bad development environment and tools, compared to competitiors.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by btreesOfSpring on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:26AM (#11035015)
just curious, what software were you using for audio production under windows?
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by JustSomeNobody on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:18PM (#11035964)
> Windows got so much flack over the years. It wasn't the prettiest but it worked and did what it said.

No. Just No. Windows loves to "forget" things. Things like Bluetooth devices. Or wifi devices. Windows likes to update your laptop for you when you're trying to close it ("Don't turn off your computer..." Wait, what? I have a plane to catch!). Windows scatters files all over the place! And that registry. UGH!

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by vacri on Thursday February 04, 2016 @03:08PM (#11036777)
> Windows scatters files all over the place!

Oh look, OSX has touched this usb stick, and vomited it's dotfiles onto it. Did it ever write to the stick? Nope, just need to throw those trash dotfiles onto every. single. thing. it. sees.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by douche on Thursday February 04, 2016 @03:12PM (#11036805)
Grr. You can always tell when somebody has been on the NAS or done any development work on a branch checked out of source control on a MacBook...
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by st3v3r on Thursday February 04, 2016 @05:03PM (#11037659)
The development work thing isn't the fault of Apple, but rather the stupid developer who didn't pay attention to their commit.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by kbenson on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:40PM (#11039498)
I think there's plenty of blame to go to both of them. There's no defensible reason to put dotfiles in every single folder, and there are many, many reasons why it may not be desired of various levels of vehemence.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by jhasse on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:48PM (#11036191)
When closing your laptop Windows goes into standby. It should only install updates when shutting down and it tells you that beforehand. So it "did what it said" ;)

> Windows scatters files all over the place!

Just have a look into your Library folder on OS X. Also some programs don't use that, but create a dot folder in your home directory. Maybe I'm missing something though? I haven't used OS X much lately.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by mikeash on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:27PM (#11036491)
Library is pretty well organized. Settings go in Library/Preferences, cache files in Library/Caches, persistent files that don't need to be exposed to the user go in Library/Application Support, and they're all organized by app name or bundle ID.

Apps which use dot folders in the home directory need to be smacked until they stop, but the OS can't really control where (non-sandboxed) apps put things, it can only establish conventions and encourage apps to follow them.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by jhasse on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:38PM (#11037458)
I can't look it up right now, but I think it's called "Library Support" or something? Anyway: When I was writing a program for Mac OS I had to choose the name of the folder myself. Using the app name or bundle ID seems to be just a convention, I don't see the difference to %AppData% on Windows or ~/.config on Linux.

Also I remember a tool I used when I had a Macbook which helped you remove all the files when uninstalling something. I think it was this one: http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/25276/appcleaner I remember some programs even putting files in other directories than Library Support.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by rmc on Thursday February 04, 2016 @03:28PM (#11036927)
> There's just no way in hell Steve Jobs would be putting up with this and I wish he was alive to tear some people a new one.

Remember Antennagate? The iPhone 4 had a serious hardware fault that significantly degraded it's signal. Jobs himself was the one who said to a customer "You're holding it wrong"

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by robmcm on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:21AM (#11034972)
The software that had "the focus of Steve" was generally very high quality. However there were a number of rotting products at Apple while he was still in charge.

The problem now is none of the SVPs seem to have that attention to detail, or they are too stretched doing numerous things.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by ebbv on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:09AM (#11034865)
Give me a break. Steve Jobs put out plenty of crap products and buggy software over the years. Don't pretend like he had a perfect record just because he's dead.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by daheza on Thursday February 04, 2016 @10:58AM (#11034782)
I haven't read much about Jobs but I wonder how he achieved the perfection in his product. Force the teams to work overtime to correct the bugs? Did he double the QA size in order to catch all these bugs? Did he demand that all code checked in must be at incredibly high standards, thus forcing the devs to QA more of their own code?
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by bkeroack on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:58AM (#11035279)
With Jobs, it wasn't so much what you have right now as it was where he was taking you. To the bright, beautiful future where everything was different and better. One could overlook the imperfections because the vision was so appealing.

Now that he's gone (and without anyone with his charisma to take over), the public is left to contemplate the ignoble reality of the current product sitting in front of them. The sense of wonder and possibility is absent.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by kzhahou on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:04AM (#11034838)
They weren't perfect by far. For years I've seen people struggle to figure out something as basic as creating a playlist or syncing to a new device. It's perhaps always been better software than windows counterparts, it always fallen short of the "intuitive" goal it's aspired to (and frankly, bragged about)
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by yggydrasily on Thursday February 04, 2016 @12:47PM (#11035679)
This is the best explanation I've ever seen. Just lots of focus, attention to detail, and iteration until they got it right:

http://inventor-labs.com/blog/2011/10/12/what-its-really-lik...

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by knughit on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:06AM (#11034848)
He went on stage and gave a sock presentation that made everyone forget about the bugs. Users judged the book by it's well-kerned prettily animated cover.

This is the same old tripe about the young generation's moral decline, and rose-tinted rearview glasses.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by glhaynes on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:24AM (#11035000)
Imagine how many "this never would've happened if Steve were still alive" articles would be written if the iTunes 13 installer were to delete users' entire hard drives like iTunes 2's did (http://www.wired.com/2001/11/glitch-in-itunes-deletes-drives...).
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by DigitalJack on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:18AM (#11034949)
Exactly this. Snow leopard was a great release in terms of quality, but leopard wasn't.

Many releases had critical flaws that needed a point release in less than 2 weeks.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by ktRolster on Thursday February 04, 2016 @02:14PM (#11036385)
The Steve Jobs method: hire really good people and inspire them to work to the best of their ability.

Apple UIs were better because they were doing what ESR suggested at a time when the rest of the world was smashing every new option into the right-click menu. Occasionally I'll still hear someone say, "Oh, just put that in the right-click menu." The right click menu isn't a trashbin to dump things that don't fit elsewhere. In any case, here is ESR's UI advice: http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/cups-horror.html

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by jsingleton on Thursday February 04, 2016 @11:49AM (#11035201)
I agree with a lot of the sentiment in this discussion and from the article. It feels like Apple software is getting worse from my perspective but I wonder if a change in the target market has a part to play. Perhaps the HN crowd is not a significant Apple demographic any more?

When I got my first Mac back in the PowerPC days it was definitely a step up. In the past I feel that Apple was targeting power users. Today I think they are going after casual users. Probably capitalizing on the general popularity of iOS.

I've still got a couple of old Macs but they're all running Windows now. Visual Studio still has the occasional lock-up whatever hardware it's on. At least you don't have to sign in to an app store to update it though.

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by anonbanker on Thursday February 04, 2016 @05:58PM (#11037958)
Windows handles maybe an eighth of the hardware that works in Linux.

Visual Studio is nice, if you're not writing in Rust, Perl 6, Ruby, Objective C, D, Scala, Smalltalk...

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by FireBeyond on Thursday February 04, 2016 @08:38PM (#11038779)
And what IDE on Linux handles all those, without installing 30+ plugins?
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by anonbanker on Thursday February 04, 2016 @09:05PM (#11038907)
Certainly not Visual Studio. Maybe it'll be taken seriously again if it were ported to the platforms where development is happening nowadays.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by smrtinsert on Thursday February 04, 2016 @04:42PM (#11037484)
The cult of jobs exemplified. There were absolutely issues under Jobs, but somehow his sheen made people ignore them.
Re:Apple’s declining software quality by btbuildem on Thursday February 04, 2016 @01:23PM (#11036004)
> Visual Studio is a dream, if you're into that ecosystem. MS dev tools are actually very nice

Most likely because dogfooding

Re:Apple’s declining software quality by codesushi42 on Thursday February 04, 2016 @09:51PM (#11039084)
Huh? Apple devs use Apple dev tools, and they are still terrible.

Like it or not, but MS tends to be very good with productivity software, be it Word, Excel, or Visual Studio.