who would have thought people would flock to less costly alternatives (I'm brazilian and have tons of friends that have bought BYD models recently)

what are the high cost ones?

German and American cars who aren't getting subsidized by the government, in fact they actually have to pay taxes. In addition to the fact that China is letting companies destroy it's environment.

All big companies in the US and Europe are subsidized. Indirectly or directly. But there no exceptions.

Nowadays I doubt that the US government is any better than China's in letting companies destroy the environment.

Moreover, I always wonder how Americans accuse China of subsidizing its industries, while I never hear about any serious investment done by any big US company that is not conditioned by huge tax reductions.

All the kinds of fiscal facilities that the big US companies receive from the state or federal governments would be strictly forbidden in most places of Europe, as being a form of state help that distorts competition.

> Nowadays I doubt that the US government is any better than China's in letting companies destroy the environment.

Where are you getting that idea?

Directly from the repeated declarations of people in high positions of the US government, including the POTUS himself, who have bragged about their efforts for removing all the environmental regulations that supposedly make the US companies lose money and make them less competitive.

You made a comparative statement that has two sides.

Also consider: if California got rid of prop 65 warnings would that be bad? How would that fare on your scorecard?

I am pretty certain that on paper today China has environmental regulations at least as strict as those of USA.

Nonetheless, it is very likely that in many places they are not enforced, except perhaps when they might be used to punish someone who fell in disgrace for other reasons.

Yes, PRC subsidising renewable energy is totally worse for the environment than US+DE subsidizing fossil and diesel gate.

At least the us has been decreasing carbon emissions for two decades running

US emissions went up last year.

Was slight. It's projected to be down again in 2026.

No, retarded territorial accounting practices assign PRC made goods as PRC emissions but US fossil extraction as foreign consumer emissions. US emissions substantially up factoring in all the net oil export from fracking and NG leaks from shit gas infra. On paper US shed 1 mbt co2e/year from paper peak, but factor in oil/ng exports and leaks, US napkin math up 1.5 bmt co2e/year, i.e. 20% over US paper peak.

Meanwhile PRC annual renewable production wipes about 100m barrel of oil energy equivalent per day over their life time, i.e. comparable to global oil consumption - they are functionally preventing oil use from doubling. Every year, PRC solar is averting equivalent of 100m barrels of future oil consumption. Literally the greatest emission aversion machine in human history - PRC functionally preventing so much emissions its carbon foot print is negative if you use sensible attributions.

Nope. Trade corrected CO2 is also going down.

Garbage in stats creates garbage out, hence non biased accounting that attributes emissions directly to extractor/producer like we do goods. AKA still single counts just shifts attribution - every barrel PRC imports? Discount emission from PRC. Every barrel US exports, include as US emissions.

> Why not just go all in on that and zero out any country that doesnt extract carbon sources!

We should in fact, totally do that, aka on going GHG Protocol Scope3 Cat11 battleground. Precisely to address statistically context illiterate claims like muh Murican emissions went down and muh trade corrected co2 went down because legacy accounting standards specifically masks / offloads emissions extracted from US ground onto their customers. Shifting emissions to extractor responsiblity (scope 3), is in fact heavily politicized / lobbied against by US fossil industry to make US #s look better. But that's all it is, fake numbers for useful idiots to aktually about.

I don't understand how people make this claim about PRC ... there's 2 obvious facts:

1) China's government does not care, in the slightest, about the environment. Their big worry is energy independence, well lack of energy independence, which due to climate change has some overlap, but enough pictures have leaked about Chinese mines to establish that basic measures to protect the environment are not being taken.

2) China lies. In the sense that any number coming out of PRC is government-approved at the very least. Government-made-up more likely. They lie and lie and lie and lie. E.g. the 2007 housing crash is still happening in China, badly enough to get people constantly complaining about it because it's still stealing their savings. But on the official figures? Everything's fine! There was the incident just last year with Indian workers taking pictures of Beijing's (best city) homeless. An endless street with homeless encampments on both sides, as far as the camera could see (at least 300m). Homelessness, just like gays, don't exist in China. I don't understand why people laugh out loud when an Iranian politician says there are no gays in Iran, but nobody cares if ... And of course it's a lie. According to CCP there is no porn in China. Okay, now go to Youtube red and search ...

This combines to: the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of China's economic activity being horrible beyond belief for the environment, and you're just believing propaganda.

Overwhelmingly.

Pretty spot on, a hilarious fact about China is that the only accurate & reliable air quality sensors are those in the US embassy and consulates.

A hilarious fact is how many idiots still insist on believing this even though its Deborah Seligsohn, the literal fucking environment / science officer at US embassy beijing who installed those sensors claimed otherwise. PRC Ministry of Environment had accurate sensors before US embassy stunt, they just used 24 hour average instead of live data. They also built out national sensor network early 2010s. Can't get horse to drink etc etc repeat x1000.

> who installed those sensors claimed otherwise

Google shows said person already left Beijing embassy in 2007, and according to state dept [0] the sensor is a team effort led by Erica Keen Thomas.

> PRC Ministry of Environment had accurate sensors before US embassy stunt, they just used 24 hour average instead of live data.

Could you provide a source for China had been publishing pm2.5/pm10/o3/voc/etc data before 2008? Prior to 2016 the obsolete national air quality standard, GB 3095—1996, does not even include pm2.5, how can they report a nonexistent metric?

At the time the gov only publishes verdicts like good/mid/bad with no raw data. It is the US embassy effort that educated the population about objective standards mentioned above and it often contradicted the official verdict. The gov repeatedly asked the embassy to stop, and forced Chinese weather apps to remove the builtin embassy reading for ppl find it more trustworthy.

> They also built out national sensor network early 2010s

Yep thanks to the new standard GB 3095—2012 in effect only from 2016. 24hr avg probably would be the least nefarious trick the gov employed to fudge the numbers. They actually did,

- build sensors in scenic areas instead of city proper, the equivalent of instead of Manhattan, NYC reads its AQI from some national park only technically within border.

- put sensors in a box so gov can install filter on bad days, or they are conveniently broken or put offline when needed.

- spray water around the sensor, hence even nowadays you can see water sprinkler trucks roaming Chinese cities, despite its utter uselessness in reducing pm2.5 on city scale.

- Force B2C sites like Taobao to delist any air quality sensors.

- Since objective readings are hard to fudge, the gov chooses to play with the subjective index instead, so the standard of the aggregate index, Air Quality Index, is laxly defined and even more laxly enforced. They forced weather apps to adopt it so at first glance everything looks good just like the old days. Here is yet another hilarious fact, a popular mod that ppl install along with VPN on their iPhones is to mitm the weather app so that the AQI reading follows US standard instead of Chinese, also like the good ol' days.

[0]: https://diplomacy.state.gov/online-exhibits/diplomacy-is-our...

Seligsohn the one that proposed, I was being loose with words, she doesn't need to literally turn screwdriver to initiate. Propose predate installation hence 2007 timeline matches. She has interview on Sinica specifically talking about BJ embassy AQI story.

I didn't say official presented PM2.5 prior. I said they had accurate sensors... which they've had for 1996 standard. There's no qualitive difference between old standard telling people living under yellow skies the air quality is bad via good/mid/bad (and it was basically mostly bad) vs US presenting it via AQI#? Hence the stunt, a successful stunt, nvm patchy sensors over a few rooftops is manifestly not accurate way to extrapolate broader AQI. Regardless point is not how successful stunt was, but 2007 and before, PRC had accurate air sensors.

> FLG conspiracy rant diversion ... fudge... subjective index... aggregate index

I've seen all these exaggerated bullet points from FLG rag before, yeah a few local govs stuck cotton in filters (and got punished), recall of defective sensors when there's already 10s of millions of residential air purifies with AQI meters around. There's 100-1000s of sensors in broad urban/regional coverage for a reason. Instead US embassy/consulate readings that only provided patchy coverage, central gov gets to process 100s of data points (which btw mitigates local gov tomfoolery)... aka a statistically better method. Of course some iphone owning PRC baizuo shitlibs who always thinks US standards better with eat muh embassy AQI slop, but that has no baring on claim that US embassy AQI being more accurate because it technically couldn't due to lack of coverage. Even if PRC fudged their numbers - US embassy setup itself inherently cannot provide more accuracy outside a few kms, ever, hence stunt. Also c'mon popular weatherkit modding is so vanishingly niche on PRC scale it statistically doesn't exist.

>I don't understand

Which is downstream reflection of your reading comprehension ability, and susceptibility to useful idiot LIOtard free press narratives.

1.

Nowhere did I claim PRC cares about environment. Well except they do, like when they shut down / relocate factories because people complaining. But that's response to populous sentiment.

What I assert, correctly, is that the downstream outcome of both energy / industrial policy on emissions. That US becoming fossil exporter has, in reality increased it's net emissions. That PRC becoming renewable juggernaut has in reality generated massive carbon sink and averted massive future emissions.

2.

And what gov approved numbers did I use. Like number of renewable installation is trivially checked, cross border renewable trade as well. This all outdoor infra one can monitor on geospatial. The issue isn't countries propagandaize, it's LIOtards are so brainwashed and innumerate that they think somehow they less retarded useful idiots because they have access to muh free press even though their worldview shaped by captured fabricated pres.

Like your entire point 2) is symptomatic of this retardation. Official econ news talk about housing drag from 3RL all the time. There's barely any, not no homeless in most PRC cities, and basically no chronic, i.e. homeless gets shoved somewhere. Gays are everywhere, just not promoted. Porn is banned but trivially accessible via vpn, or back in the good old days go through hutongs to find bootleg. Like basically all your points can simply be summarized by you acknowledging "I don't understand", which in some self awareness you have have acknowledged twice.

3.

lol no, PRC official propaganda trash, like their old uncles aren't brazen enough to outright claim downstream effect of PRC renewable push overwhelmingly makes PRC responsible for creating the largest manufactured carbon sink in anthropocentric history. That's what makes it most hilarious, PRC optimizing selfishly for domestic energy security made it global renewable savior as happenstance. They're doing more for the environment than the west granola eaters, and they don't, actually fucking care, it's just on net balance they are now the greatest emission aversion force on earth. PRC is the ideal emission aversion engine, you may not like it, but this is what peak performance looks like.

How are they being received generally in Brazil?

What kind of vehicles are people replacing with BYDs? I always assumed Brazilians drove mostly "legacy" VW or Nissans, but I looked at VW's Brazilian website and you all seem to have most of the same vehicles that are available in Europe and North America, including the ID.4!

Which doesn't mean most people can afford them - I live in Europe and I've yet to see an ID.4 myself.

Hence my surprise to even see it for sale in Brazil and the reason I brought it up. After looking at their lineup, it seem like VW has moved away from their historical approach of providing cheaper, older vehicles in the Brazilian market.

> historical approach of providing cheaper, older vehicles in the Brazilian market.

I think most of the established brands have stopped doing a lot of that, but it used to be very common. VW would build some models in Germany for several years, mostly for sale to higher priced markets; when it came time for a new model, the old production tooling would go to South Africa, Mexico, or Brazil where it would continue to be built (and refined) for many more years. It's great for parts availability too.

But now it's more common to have completely different models for lower priced markets, or build a global model with different options in different markets. Soemthing, something, model consolidation is expected to reduce costs? But BYD (and others) are making big inroads into low cost markets by building models that are more affordable and using that volume to maybe move into higher priced markets over time.

Not OP but also a brazilian with friends that bought BYDs, the ones I talked to about it really like it.

I'd say around 60% of the Ubers I get are BYDs and I'm glad when it's one because that means it's a newer car and it's very comfortable.

> How are they being received generally in Brazil?

Very well. Not only BYD but also other brands like GWM and Geely.

> What kind of vehicles are people replacing with BYDs?

Combustion cars with the same price, they are not replacing other electrical vehicles because the Chinese brands are way cheaper yet they are good cars.

> I always assumed Brazilians drove mostly "legacy" VW or Nissans

Nowadays we have many models from different brands.

In the past the fleet was basically VW, Ford, Chevrolet and Fiat. In the late 90s and early 2000s the Japanesne (Honda, Toyota and Nissan) and French (Renault, Citroën, Peugeot) became popular, and then Hyundai also became a success here. Recently, the Chinese brands are becoming more popular, especially Chery and the ones that I mentioned before.

> including the ID.4

But I never saw it here, even though VW is a very popular brand here.

A lot of Uber Black cars in São Paulo are BYD ones, so I think it is creating a brand of “good quality” cars around here

Very well received. Everybody I know who owns a BYD car speaks highly of it.

ID.4 it's pretty new here... But it's super expensive. I mean, it's not cheap even outside Brazil.... ID.4 are there mostly for rent companies, who love VW.

some models also charge much faster, and go further than Western alternatives

cheap, fast, good, its a rare moment to pick all three and the market is

most reservations about EVs are based on range anxiety, charging time and cost. only people with a certain level of advantage will pay to experience inconvenience, and that issue disintegrates at a certain threshold for a much broader population

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the difference is short term vs long term. people with less money are constrained by many factors, usually related to a downpayment and what they do to get more money, so that pushes them towards cheaper cars which can access ubiquitous gas pumps that are all the same connector

listen to them, solve their frictions related to considering EVs, and more people choose EV

For reference, the new BYD Dahan RWD model has a listed range of 626 miles and claims 'flash charging' of 10% to 97% in 9 minutes.

Are those chargers available in NA? Wouldn't they use higher line voltages than are currently permitted?

Supply line voltage is irrelevant. The car and charger negotiate power and voltage dynamically.

Charging stations typically also have on-site battery storage to have peak charging power that exceeds grid supply (and also because energy arbitrage is profitable).

Local codes might limit things, but that is unlikely.

Local codes for residential? I doubt anyone would be doing flash-charging at home. If you're referring to codes for charging networks, that would fall under industrial fixtures; and industrial codes allow for scarily-high-amperage wiring under a stricter regime than residential.

Industrial codes often only allow trained electricians to connect those high voltage wires. Even though it is fine, it is against the code to plug in that cable.

Flash charging delivers over a megawatt of power via a thick actively-cooled cable. This is for rapid charging stations along highways (equivalent of gas stations), not for a DIY install in your garage.

This is about needing a licensed electrician to connect that cable to your car when you are a that rapid charging station on the highway.

The letter of the law often says things like that.

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I am very well aware that the connector is foolproof. Hope the law was written years ago when nobody but trained electricians would even dream of touching anything more higher voltage than a US, than a standard household. All it takes is a few people who have an irrational hate of EVs, which we know a lot of those exist, and they will just apply the law and some of you can't charge your EV in a certain area at more than level 2.

The above has nothing to do about safety or how practical it is. It is about people who can apply the law to their twisted ends.

Currently the fastest chargers use 1000 V.

There are international standards for 1000 V and 800 V charging, but I have no idea whether they are allowed in NA.

To be clear, that's CLTC range, so closer to ~400'ish miles EPA. Still, very good. I think there are a variety of reasons why US manufacturers are sticking closer to 300mi (e.g. availability of battery materials), but it's improving and hopefully that'll continue.

I'm kind of torn myself. Although I'd like more range, 300 does get me where I'm going, and performance vehicles want less weight, not more.

Funny because I live in Hungary, the country with the highest VAT in EU (27%), and BYD is not the cheapest at all. Neither in the EV and ICE (hybrid) category

There is a 27% tariff on BYD EVs imported to the EU, but even disregarding that there are cheaper Chinese EV brand in the EU than BYD.

BYD taking over most of the world aside from the United States, Korea, Germany and Japan.

You mean the countries that still have native automotive industries and an understanding of the strategic value of heavy industry in both economic and martial terms?

> You mean the countries that still have native automotive industries

Thanks for the laugh, as a lifelong Michigan resident I have to say this is great satire.

How do Chinese owned industrial factories in Brazil differ, apart from being more efficient and able to pivot to new markets better? Which seems like useful properties in a war footing?

Do you want your war munition manufacturers to say "we'd have better short term bonuses if we didn't manufacture what you need but instead just kept manufacturing our old stuff with no regard for the nations future"?

> How do Chinese owned industrial factories in Brazil differ, apart from being more efficient and able to pivot to new markets better? Which seems like useful properties in a war footing?

The factory stops being efficient and easily pivoted the second the people running said factory want it to stop. That, in turn, depends on how friendly you are with the country running said factory.

Let's say there's some sort of negotiations going on between the country that hosts the factory and the country that operates the factory, which, in this case, means a country with a government that has a very deep cadre system that gives them control of almost all enterprises, state-owned or otherwise.

The negotiations (whatever it is, let's just say they're economic for an example) reach an impasse. You are the country that has control over the factory. Sure, the host country has the factory, but they don't have the institutional knowledge, intellectual property, or supply chain deals that your firm does.

Do you ignore this leverage? Hell no. You say "it'd be a real shame if we had to find a new place to make our products for your market", which would imply a serious loss of employment in the region and a massive factory complex sitting empty and decaying.

Unless you're talking about the sort of relationship the US and Japan have, the factory's host country now has to consider that possibility.

> Do you want your war munition manufacturers to say "we'd have better short term bonuses if we didn't manufacture what you need but instead just kept manufacturing our old stuff with no regard for the nations future"?

That's literally how pretty much all industrialized and post-industrialized nations' defense manufacturing sectors work to one extent or another. Some munitions and defense systems are incredibly complex. You can't just move the knowledge about their manufacture over in a few corporate wiki pages; you have to have the greybeards teach the young guys by doing. This happens all the time, particularly with nuclear weapons. If you don't do that, the greybeards retire or die off and no one knows how to make this system that the military has speced, tested, approved, and gone through the bureaucracy of acquisition for. This means they either do without or get to start over from scratch at tremendous cost.

Exactly the countries where brand loyalty has a culture status. If you let go of that, there are only a few sensible economic options left, BYD high on that list.

You forgot India.

The thing all these countries have in common is their own Automobile sector which is a huge part of the economy that they need to protect.

Surprisingly I have seen imported BYD Atto at 100% tariffs or so and Olectra buses which are actually BYD buses , probably CKU imported into India. Auto sector employment in India is seriously important as is the need for capturing a fair value even of EVs locally while on the other hand Oil & Gas imports have always been the biggest import bill and Forex drain so there are good incentives to move. It is just they do it slowly and in their own ways and the handful of capital intensive companies who tried getting LFP manufacturing into India failed as China scale cannot be replicated in India due to differing political systems and cultures, even today

India’s approach has been to allow the competition but at a tariffed rate that makes the imports slightly more expensive than the domestic products. This ensures local industry doesn’t get decimated but also doesn’t get complacent without competition. The consumers get the option to buy BYD, but it won’t be cheap.

Brazil also has a huge automobile sector, even though it's not Brazilian-owned

BYD had to open factories here

Assuming the blue wave continues for 2 more years, I've been wondering if the Democrats are going to open up America to Chinese EVs as a way to punish Elon for his engagement with the GOP

USA bans the onboard Chinese automotive software for national security reasons, effectively banning Chinese cars. This isn't a partisan political thing, Biden was the one that signed the Secure Equipment Act.

For all the talk about data and technology sovereignty in Europe about USA tech, you would think they would take that more seriously too. Instead Europe is flooded with underpriced Chinese cars that they have no control over.

There's also the 100% tariff to overcome. But I'm sure with a friendlier tax/tariff regime, Chinese companies wouldn't be opposed to bringing 98% complete vehicles from China to the US and then finishing them with American comms equipment.

they wouldn't mind standing up factories and importing the parts for assembly.

> Instead Europe is flooded with underpriced Chinese cars that they have no control over.

Please someone fact check that, as far as I know there are import taxes on Chinese EVs, and protectionist measures. The only "loophole" I know is for vehicles built in the EU, which is fine as it employs local workforce.

The link says restrictions on software take effect in model year 2027 and hardware in 2030. So those rules are not in force yet right?

And if this were really the issue, why wouldn't BYD build vehicles with swappable control software and hardware? Ship unfinished vehicles to the US and install approved electronics in them?

No they won’t as they have auto unions to protect

American auto unions largely aren't competing in the EV space. 80%+ of EVs sold in America aren't built using American union labor - Tesla at 60% sales is non-union, Rivian at 10%, Toyota imports EVs, Ford and Chevrolet build the Mach E and Equinox EV in Mexico

It doesn't refute GPs point. If foreign EVs are better than ICE vehicles manufactured by union labor, the unions are going to have a problem letting the foreign EVs in.

US car makers can be cheaper too if they put workers in slave-like conditions, even aside the Chinese govt subsidies and investment.

One example from Brazil since that's the topic:

> Brazilian prosecutors have filed a lawsuit accusing electric carmaker BYD of human trafficking and keeping its workers in “slavery-like conditions” in its biggest market outside China.

> The investigation found the Chinese workers were brought to Brazil under false pretences and their visas did not match their jobs.

> Prosecutors said the workers were found working in “slavery-live conditions” and with "minimum comfort and hygiene”, calling them victims of international human trafficking

> The workers were forced to sleep on beds that did not have mattresses and as many as 30 people shared a bathroom, MPT alleged.

https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/china/byd-china-ev-sued-b...

BYD in China shows off their factory towns for how wonderful the workers live. Its a modern day Hershey. It might be more of a Brazil issue than a BYD issue.

Good ol’ propaganda?

wjy is that your reflex? good ol' propaganda.

There is a lawsuit in China involving BYD, it shows in October of 2020 an assembly line worker clocked 441.5 raw hours, got paid ~$1.96/hr after overtime multiplier. The reality in car manufacturing in China is 12hr shifts, 2 days off a month and $2-3/hr wage, simply sweatshop in the 21st century.

BYD cars are cheaper because China just has the most expertise at building things at scale and because they're making many formerly discrete car parts entire modules, which are cheaper to manufacture.

There's also been plenty of reporting of 'slave like conditions' at Tesla, GM etc.

I mean, both can be true?

Can be, but likely isn't to any greater extent than in the West without substantial evidence. And so perhaps it should not be the first reason listed for why it's cheaper when there are perfectly reasonable explanations outside of the constant 'China bad, evil' orientalist shtick that just shows how scared we in the West are of actual competition, accustomed to exploiting the world for half a millennia.

No, it can't. If PRC makers NEEDED low wages to undercut pricing vs west sure. But PRC EVs selling far above domestic MSRP, more than enough to cover wage differential, i.e. lower wages isn't doing the undercutting, it's enabling more profitable extraction. Reality is western competitors are simply not competitive regardless of wage differential when most structural competitiveness come from vertical integration. It doesn't help west is paying more to build worse. Paying less to build worse also not going to close gap.

Slave-like by American standards maybe, not Chinese. In the US Janesville GM pays assembly workers $28/hr in 2008 before closure, and nowadays anywhere between $20-$35 and they enjoy a strong union and good pension.

A few labor lawsuits show that in China Tesla wage starts at ~$4.5/hr while BYD ~$1.7/hr. Tesla also limits overtime to 36 hrs/mo by China labor law, while gov allows BYD workers to clock 441.5 raw hours in a single month. Pension and union is basically non-existent. And the reason why ppl work at BYD instead of Tesla is by clocking monstrous overtime they actually make more despite lower hourly pay.

There are reasons why Tesla consistently ranks in China 1st/2nd by sales. One of them is Chinese workers are the ones exploited by sweatshops and a government only nominally communist so they are paying the price, while Western customers are enjoying good ol' NIMBYism.

> In the US Janesville GM pays assembly workers $28/hr in 2008 before closure, and nowadays anywhere between $20-$35

> In China Tesla wage starts at ~$4.5/hr while BYD ~$1.7/hr.

You can't compare wages in China vs the US like that. The cost of living is much, much different than in the US. Healthcare, energy costs etc. aren't comparable.

What you linked to is of contractors building the plant, not assembly line workers. It's a blurry line and certainly affiliated with BYD, but car assembly itself is moving toward 'dark' factories, populated by robots that are indeed kept in slave-like conditions, unpaid and worked beyond humane shifts.

As a side note, BYD indeed has a lot more workers per car vs a lot of their competitors, but because of the vertical integration, most are assembling upstream parts.

BYD pulled off the same thing in EU as well, in Hungary [0].

The dark factory part is simply propaganda, the viral WSJ interview is only about body assembly which is already automated everywhere. The labor intensive part is the general assembly and even they admit this in the video. However here it's like Chinese EV found the silver bullet in car manufacturing.

[0]: https://chinalaborwatch.org/building-byd-szeged-labor-risks-...

Cheaper but not cheap. US can pay literally 0 and still be substantially more expensive than PRC, labour simply rounding error ($500-$1000) per chassis.

Have you ever seen warehouses in the US or construction projects with only Mexicans. Not so much different to what you describe.

BYD is cheaper because BYD engineers are smarter, have higher IQ and able to vertically integrate components to cut overheads.

in the US auto OEMs are mainly putting parts together, made by different suppliers like ZF, Bosch, Lemforder etc etc. Its assembly work and it split across hundreds of legacy car component suppliers

> BYD is cheaper because BYD engineers are smarter, have higher IQ and able to vertically integrate components to cut overheads.

Lol, I wonder why. It really is a mystery. Why did we once rule the world pre-1970's and have been waning and decaying ever since? Gee, maybe these Chinese geniuses can figure out the reason for us.

That’s what happens when the state intentionally heavily subsidized an industry to destroy existing competition

Yes, but we're not talking about GM right now

Dated take. China and BYD are doing a lot of things right that make this possible. A recent article showing how they're consolidating parts that passes the buck to consumers is a great example as to why they can sell 20% cheaper and still have higher margins.

Yeah we can see that with Anthropic and OpenAI.

No it's what happens when smart state intelligently subsidizes to bring down structural costs, while retarded state foolishly subsidizes to keep pork barrel jobs program going as legacy processes fall into uncompetitiveness. We had 30 years of PRC shock evidence now - everything PRC made cheap, remains cheap long after subsidies, because they structurally lower floor vs western competition doesn't.

"They subsidize their industries. We protect local jobs." Totally different things.

It’s unavoidable, every country does it.

subsidies is a very lazy argument, US subsidizes and protects even more and bails out car OEMs.

the real argument is efficiency, US cannot match efficiency and scale. Thats the root cause.

Thought you were talking about the US.

Is that why the US bans exports of EUV machines and Nvidia chips to China?

Germany is being taken over, too. Perhaps slower than other markets but sales of Chinese cars are booming.

BYD is available in both South Korea and Japan and making inroads. The biggest barrier is a deep distrust of Chinese brands, not tariffs, plus in Japan's case favorable tax treatment of "kei" (light) cars, a Japan-only segment that BYD has just entered.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/chinese-evs-win-o...

I have no doubt they can build an excellent machine. I’ve also received enough plated brass/pot metal “100% stainless steel” items from China to know I would have zero trust in their suppliers even if I trusted one company enough to buy a car.

With the Republicans thrown out enmass last night maybe we can go back to the full switch over to becoming an electro state again, and leave this oil and gas bullshit in the past. I’m still not OK with opening our doors to BYD, but I want our own manufacturers to come up to speed and to build out massive charging infrastructure.

The irony of course is that Trump had a mandate to inflict some tariff pain in the name of rebuilding American manufacturing, and managed to completely spaff that up the wall with non-strategic and idiotic tariffs on friends and neighbours.

Not to get too political but I think we’re going to find out that Trump was/is a Manchurian candidate in the truest sense of the term at some point. He did everything in his power to decrease American hegemony and soft power.

This would happen everywhere where they shout "free market " from the rooftops would stop import tariffs.looking at Germany and the usa, specifically.

In Spain, they dont do that and adaption and dealerships for Chinese EVs is taking off nicely, I ask every single owner I can if they're happy with the service and the cars and all of them have never been happier. Subjective, yes, but I welcome the Chinese cars and free markets:-)

[delayed]

Kind of , but read on why Germany refused to raise them and who, its surprising and interesting.

Whenever german business and politics decide something, its always about the money and job preservation

That’s cool until the EU decides that they’ve had enough of poor people driving their own cars and introduce tariffs or outright ban them. Then, how are you going to have them repaired? Maybe they even make it so that you can’t pass inspection with a Chinese car.

> EU decides that they’ve had enough of poor people driving their own cars

This about PRC localization, EU can't do shit. Think about insinuation if they tried? EU incumbent carmakers from economic giants, Germany, France, wants to prevent rest of EU from access to cheap cars to protect their industry and maintain economic hierarchy. What happens once PRC plants opens up in Spain, Hungary for whom DE, FR auto dying is now opportunity? Reality is EU is not so unified that smaller countries want to live in shadow of DE and FR forever. Once localized PRC plants take root, they become daggers vs incumbent EU producers instead of shields vs EU protectionism - they will be supported locally and the geopolitics of banning would break EU.

Yeah the car industry an industry notable for being free market with no subsidies whatsoever.

In the UK there's been a large increase as well as they're rock solid for a lower price. Am I odd for not considering one due to security concerns? I just can't wrap my head around buying what is essentially these days a smartphone on wheels from a hostile state that is probably sending data back to China. Car privacy these days is already bad enough.

USA under Biden banned Chinese cars for exactly those reasons.

https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/fact-sheet-safegua...

Without pressure, local companies do not compete.

We need to let them in at a limited capacity and the domestic companies need to feel the heat.

I agree that we’re subsidizing these companies at the cost of the consumer, but I highly doubt they could compete on a level playing field. The competition would be between foreign suppliers. The consumer surplus could be redirected more productively but that number would be diffuse and not easy to measure.

[delayed]

Sounds like an excuse to protect weak and unprepared American carmakers.

yes USA can be protectionist, and it can also be paranoid. Especially when it involves millions of 2 ton autonomous robots operated exclusively by its major economic and geopolitical rival.

Funny how the paranoia doesn’t apply to sectors that have no US-based industry to protect.

Which are those

That link says the ban comes into effect for model year 2027. And it applies to car software and hardware from China. The cars themselves are fine.

China is not going to sell a dumbcar in USA. The software and comms hardware ban is an effective ban of Chinese cars.

If there were no tariffs, they could import a car without Chinese electronics on-board and install approved gear in it before selling it.

I own a BYD, in another minor western aligned country.. I assume that all players are spying on me. Americans, Chinese, they are effectively the same. I just comfort myself by telling myself that if they both have my data then there is less leverage over me overall.

That's what most of us in the rest of the world feel about American cars and services. At least now, you split some and send your car data to China.

For the average person in the US or UK, this is probably an improvement over having a domestic car brand doing the surveillance and funneling the data to agencies and politicians that actually have incentives to infringe on your rights or crack down on you for political activism that goes against the current regime in power.

As opposed to the US/UK/EU company scooping up all your data?

> from a hostile state that is probably sending data back to China.

In terms of data privacy which state isn't hostile? I'd like an EV which is not connected, but out of available choices, I don't care if it's China or the US or someone else.

Of course the simple answer is don't be hostile to PRC and PRC won't be hostile back. If security sharing concern (read FVEY circumventing domestic security laws), then bring Huawei back and I'm sure PRC, a surveillance state would be happy to spy on UK citizens on MI5 behalf just like the NSA. Or if you want to be spied on less, get a PRC car who are more likely to limit reporting to your home gov on strict lawful interception requirements... plus they literally won't have as much compute as US to track your everything, and whatever little compute they have, they're wasting tokens on microdrama videos. Like all thoe US data centers going to be doing something. This comment 43% satire.

Personally I would rather china spy on me over my own government. 99% chance china never does anything with that data.

“From a position of strength”, the UK is not qualified to be a hostile country to China. Setting aside that possibility, the only remaining explanation seems to be a mix of self-delusion and fear, harbored by a former colonial empire toward a nation it once invaded.

At the very least, China is a hostile country to the UK, and they have a documented history of espionage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_espionage_in_the_Unite...

Guess which country’s intelligence agency is being called out by name for its clumsy tactics.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd11364g90mo

UK is a hostile state to their own citzens already

As usual, it's a debate where I'm not interested in either side. I don't want huge, over-sized, over-luxurious, over-priced American cars. I don't want somehow-even-more-luxurious, tracking hell, iPad hell Chinese cars.

can you explain why is tracking an issue? Google/Android and Apple both do live tracking and Brazilians seems to be fine with using both US made and China made smartphones and cars.

Whats the real argument for a Brazilian, why they should be concerned with this ludicrous claims from USA: "muh China is tracking you going to Copacabana beach. Stop buying Chinese EV for $20k, buy Tesla for $60k instead and you will be safe!!!!11"

A car sells your data to your Insurance company. You had to rapidly stop to prevent an accident? Well, data looks exactly like reckless driving. Enjoy your higher rates, dear customer!

car telematics in insurance is already being used and is offered to customers as opt-in in exchange for premium discounts for good driving behavior.

if you are not reckless driver yourself, I dont see a downside here. You get lower premiums, insurance is able to narrow down the pool of reckless drivers and properly price them and modify their behavior via monetary incentives

whats the actual downside here??????

I'll pay for your mattress and your bedroom set if you put a mic in your bedroom that I can listen to 24/7. I promise not to do anything bad with whatever I collect. I don't see a downside here either.

Straw man, it is very sad you had to make up ridiculous unrealistic scenario to make your point, which highlights how weak and wrong your original position is

It's strange for me for a few reasons: 1) i'm a human susceptible to human desires, e.g. perception of luxury and comfort; 2) Strongly drawn to cost optimization, obviously; 3) Consider data privacy to be a nightmare; 4) Am good enough at heel-n-toe shifting + fast enough to poke fun at my 'manual transmission only friends' whose brains can't comprehend how good 'autotragics' have become; 5) Kind of want to see "Government Motors" punished, but...

This whole BYD thing is weird, cuz as far as i can read, it's not just one particular auto maker that's threatened. It's all of them. Necessary to work through this as a broader systemic industrial risk rather than simply a comparo of which bloated ipad-telemetric-couch-battery-motorcar I'd rather have

Don't all cars have tracking these days? Hopefully it will be possible to remove or disable their telematics modules.

When I order a Uber I just want a BYD… They should add the option in the app. Using the "Comfort" option increases the chance to get one, but I still get very bad/old cars occasionally.

Two Chinese EV here in Brazil. One BYD Seal for me and one Geely EX5 for wife and son.

They're amazing super quality cars. Cheap maintenance. There's no other can compete for quality + price. We was explored for decades from ocidental companies. No more.

Thanks GOD for BRICS.

Out of curiosity - how exactly does BRICS affect the entire situation? I don't know much about how it's structured and what it brings to member countries.

I'm asking just because BYD is building plants and selling cars in Europe too, despite EU's tariffs on Chinese cars.

Do you think Brazil wouldn't be an interesting enough market for Chinese automakers without BRICS?

> Cheap maintenance.

I read some horror stories chinese ev dealers charging $700 nzd to inspect exhaust system so your warranty stays valid (legally you can do maintenance in independent shops, but it’s rare). Coincidentally extra long warranty on car that has nothing to break is milking machine IMO. Over that period it costs more than competition.

Ummm EV… exhaust system…?

The other nugget was engine mounts and coolant flush. I think that's MG tho, not BYD. But I'm sure it's cash grab too.

This tells us more about NZD dealers than Chinese automakers.

I live in a very small city in Brazil, BYD is a very common brand here.

Not sure what Brazil's total EV numbers are , but Germany's total EV share is 37%, which is more than gas and diesel,combined.

article that says and is titled like that :)

https://electrek.co/2026/11/04/germany-electric-car-sales-re...

Brazil EV growth it's pretty new. Started like, 3 years ago. It was irrelevant before because non-chinese EVs were super expensive. Renault had to almost cut by half their EV car price here when BYD Dolphin mini was launched.

They're great. Local plants means less taxes too. My next car will be one of these.