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Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by mentos on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:08PM (#50341968)
I’m just a layman but this feels like a big discovery on par with attention is all you need. For an LLM to have such incredible intuition of weights feels very emergent and unanticipated?
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by huijzer on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:24PM (#50342232)
I’m very much surprised but also not. I recently gave Astra a 3D model file and asked Astra to build a viewer for it, and it figured out the data structures in no time. What I mean to say is that AI is insanely good at things that we humans would never do since the work would be too monotonous.

I wouldn’t mind if AI progress would stop right here and now, but I fear it will continue, and increase inequality in society which is contrary to what the CEOs say (as usual).

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by curt15 on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:30PM (#50342329)
Was Astra able to disclose its methodology for analyzing the data structures?
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by aesthesia on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:50PM (#50344337)
Yes! The page posts Astra's reasoning, and it's perfectly intelligible. A clever human with background in mechanistic interpretability could have done pretty much everything in these experiments.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by juleiie on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:41PM (#50342519)
Too much inequality in society is a mortal danger to 1%.

That’s the beauty of the democratic capitalism system. If a government isn’t totalitarian, it naturally seeks to preserve stability thus having to elevate common people, lest they would cease to form a civilized group or simply vote away the politicians.

99% rule the 1% through elections.

There is no better system of checks and balances where opposite engines of greed vector sum to faster and faster abundance for everyone.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by willguest on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:59PM (#50342781)
perfect playback! congratulations, you are a model citizen
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by TimTheTinker on Monday November 02, 2026 @03:37PM (#50343363)
Is HN now against western capitalism? I'm confused...

That comment may have been overly preachy, tone deaf[0], and out of place, but it doesn't seem wrong, per se. Or am I missing something?

[0] e.g. elections themselves are so prone to manipulation (exhibit a: Dominion voting machines), previously trusted institutions now lack integrity, the insane power of well-funded NGO networks, etc.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by mrandish on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:24PM (#50343980)
> Is HN now against western capitalism?

I think that's a (very) vocal minority.

Over my ~9 years reading HN daily, I'd say most of the HN community broadly realizes there is no perfect system, just different sets of trade offs, but that history has shown generally democratic systems built on enlightenment values (uniform rule of law, respect for individual civil & property rights, free markets, etc) usually net better overall outcomes in the long-run - despite still being very far from perfect.

To paraphrase Winston Churchill, it's the worst system... except for all the others (which are even worse). :-)

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by psadauskas on Monday November 02, 2026 @05:12PM (#50344648)
In my almost 20 years on HN, for a long time the groupthink was basically standard libertarian-capitalism, worshipping billionaires and big tech companies, and skeptical of anything that could be construed as "socialism".

The last few years, though, while anything "anti-capitalist" or overly critical of some big tech companies that hits the front page gets flagged by bots pretty quickly, the overall feeling I get from the comments is much more skeptical of big tech and is pro-socialism.

Speaking for myself, I think we've become jaded after the constant barrage of big companies spying on us, charging more for less, enshitifying their products, and so on. I used to be optimistic about the future and my prospects, now I'm just hoping I can hold on and keep my health insurance until I retire. I worry about what my school-age kids are going to have to deal with in 5-10 years.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by mrandish on Monday November 02, 2026 @06:44PM (#50345875)
I agree that most are much more skeptical of big tech (and mega corps in general) and I think there's a sense the two-party duopoly is increasingly a 'managed democracy' primarily interested in perpetuating itself vs any real alternatives.

I disagree that most here are pro-socialism, that's a (very) vocal minority. Our democracy has entered a failure mode (two-party stage managed hegemony) and it's being tacitly supported by mega-corps because it's easier to game than a functioning free market democracy. Every complex system has failure modes, that doesn't mean free markets aren't long-term far better on average than socialism (although some redefine socialism so vaguely it seems conceptually little different). I've seen two flavors of socialism up close. Never want to again.

> I worry about what my school-age kids are going to have to deal with in 5-10 years.

Having a teenager, I share your concerns but I'm also a bit more optimistic about the longer term. It's easy to forget that our parents had similar concerns for us and their parents did before them. We've had an historically long period of broad systemic stability, really since the depression and WWII. While I don't think that level of upheaval is at all likely, I think we're overdue for a disruptive correction bigger than 2008, maybe something more on the order of Teddy Roosevelt's Progressive Era trust-busting to reset the two-party duopoly and crony corperatists both perpetuating each other's hold on power.

It may get rougher and more uncertain for a while, but the worst thing would be to lose the ethos of 'free minds, free markets, free choice' by falling into socialism, communism or totalitarianism.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by za3faran on Monday November 02, 2026 @08:10PM (#50346692)
> uniform rule of law, respect for individual civil & property rights, free markets

These values are not specific to western democratic systems. For example, under Islamic Law (Shari'ah), the aforementioned apply as well.

And since when was Churchill an expert at this topic?

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by hnhg on Monday November 02, 2026 @03:45PM (#50343467)
I would guess it seems very naïve to the overly cynical. And in 2026, being overly cynical is rather mainstream (understandably so).
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by senordevnyc on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:30PM (#50344073)
Bingo. There’s a certain type who confuses cynicism with intelligence, probably because they fear nothing so much as appearing naive or gullible.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by willguest on Monday November 02, 2026 @05:46PM (#50345119)
There is another type who confuse ideology with reality. I wonder if you one of those, oh bingo-loving senior dev. Do you also cut people down for being idealists, when the reality of the situation serves you more than the ideal?
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by BatFastard on Monday November 02, 2026 @03:48PM (#50343494)
I fear western capitalism has lost its guide rails. We are seeing more and more centralization of wealth, along with unlimited election spending. Its a dark path.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by willguest on Monday November 02, 2026 @05:13PM (#50344665)
first of all, I cannot claim to speak for HN.

if you lookup playback as a concept, as it relates to the intelligence services, you will understand better what I meant.

my point was only that this is perfect description of the ideology behind western capitalism. there is (so) much more that could be said, but i'm not sure this comment section is the right place for a proper dissection of the very many ways in which this ideal is misconstrued, misdirected and coerced in order to serve interests that are far from ideal, to put it mildly.

since you have taken the time to ask a question, albeit a rather weak one, i will attempt a brief synopsis of my perspective on the parent comment:

a mortal danger is hyperbole, since shielding oneself from bodily harm is much easier with money. it is the poor, especially in the US, who cannot afford healthcare, as a first-line example

people regularly vote against their best interests. while the ideal might have been true for a while, behavioural influence on both a widespread and personal level is now a mature science.

i am not anti-election, not anti-democracy. claiming the opposite in the face of opposition is a sign of a polarised mindset, which cannot accept nuance, either because it is not used to it, or because it doesn't suit an vested interest, or because dissonance is simply too uncomfortable

the "there's nothing better" argument is usually used in ignorance, but in fact there are lots of system-level adjustments that have been shown historically to mitigate the corruption of incentives and the exploitation of systemic forces that, although initially unintentional, create emergent positive feedback situations that lead to a state that it counter to the utilitarian perspective that is contained within the western capitalist model.

the reading above is a very narrow view of Adam Smith Wealth of Nations, ignores the fact that human interests can be subverted and ignores the devil in the details

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by aftbit on Monday November 02, 2026 @05:47PM (#50345124)
reductionist paths are never truly correct.

the world is complicated.

true: the one thing that every government - no matter how totalitarian - must fear is an angry mob.

also true: there are many tools available to the ruling class for dealing with this angry mob, often before it forms.

many work by redirecting the mob inward rather than outwards.

these tools work whether you live in a totalitarian fascist state or a egalitarian liberal utopia, albeit in somewhat different ways.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by jeremyjh on Monday November 02, 2026 @07:02PM (#50346088)
By definition, there is no ruling class in an egalitarian liberal utopia.

Cynicism about corruption is one of the most power tools wielded by the ruling class in any system. In general its one of the best ways to keep the smarter-than-average from posing any actual threat.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by adamsb6 on Monday November 02, 2026 @07:32PM (#50346349)
> it is the poor, especially in the US, who cannot afford healthcare

Is that even true? The poor are well subsidized. If you as a single person make less than $22,000 in Washington state, for example, you're covered at 100%.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by antonvs on Monday November 02, 2026 @09:02PM (#50347049)
> exhibit a: Dominion voting machines

Is this an example of why Fox News had to pay Dominion nearly $800 million for defamation, or are you referring to e.g. the CISA vulnerabilities, which are not known to have been exploited?

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by brador on Monday November 02, 2026 @03:10PM (#50342966)
Or they start bopping the 99% out the picture until the 1% is 51%.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by ciefa on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:43PM (#50342551)
I mean there are more than enough countries on earth kinda proving you wrong, no?
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by ciefa on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:44PM (#50342563)
(This comment was written before your edit, so no longer valid! :D)
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by GeorgeWBasic on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:34PM (#50344125)
Is this satire? Or haven't you noticed that what actually happens is that the politicians are all owned by the elite 1%, and they allow you to choose between politician A and politician B who both take their orders from the elite to give you the illusion that the government is the 99% ruling the 1%.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by juleiie on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:41PM (#50344215)
Then you must introduce necessary reforms or perish as Neanderthals of political system.

In any case the system works as intended

It will be very interesting to see if USA swims or drowns from appropriately afar.

I have already supplied myself with plenty of roasted corn and a high speed internet connection so I can stream the political car crash at the highest bitrate available to humankind.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by polotics on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:55PM (#50344400)
I don't know how big you think the planet is, but "appropriately afar" ain't what I feel.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by joquarky on Monday November 02, 2026 @06:45PM (#50345884)
When the SHTF, your high speed Internet connection will be among the first services to be cut off.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by dghlsakjg on Monday November 02, 2026 @03:46PM (#50343473)
I think the latest round of models is about to do to CAD the same thing that has been happening to development. I don't know if CAD designers have picked up on this. What happened to dev is probably going to happen to CAD designers soon. I've been having Opus 5.5 design parametric openscad models, and it can do some rather amazing work.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by rescbr on Monday November 02, 2026 @05:36PM (#50345019)
Yesterday I just printed an adapter for my sink siphon. Told GLM-5.3 the problem, it guided me on measuring what it needed to know to build the pipe adapter. Then printed two test rings to confirm the measurements, and an iteration later, it spit out a parametric pipe adapter for me.

I'm not going to the hardware store anymore!

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by imtringued on Tuesday November 03, 2026 @03:14AM (#50349385)
You're assuming that online stores care about publishing drawings or specs for their parts.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by ghosty141 on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:45PM (#50344272)
> What I mean to say is that AI is insanely good at things that we humans would never do since the work would be too monotonous.

In my opinion AI is superior to humans when it comes to pattern recognition in in large amounts of data. For example humans can only hold like 7 distinct numbers in the short term memory and you would require extra context-management (aka writing things down, storing them in a system entry by entry) while the AI can do this effortlessly with huge datasets.

I'd argue this is the core part that enables all this superhuman intelligence.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by amelius on Monday November 02, 2026 @05:25PM (#50344832)
Not just memory, also its stamina.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by mrandish on Monday November 02, 2026 @08:36PM (#50346877)
... and speed. Lots of speed.

To me one of the most interesting aspects of observing how LLM capabilities evolve is how it highlights the meaningful ways human minds remain unique and valuable. It gets into Philosophy of Mind stuff but the existence of the inner self (or the illusion it exists, if you believe Dennett) and the subjective experience of qualia do give humans both unique strengths and some of our most annoying weaknesses.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by mkoryak on Monday November 02, 2026 @05:32PM (#50344936)
SI ?
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by anon291 on Tuesday November 03, 2026 @01:20AM (#50348709)
So I work on low-level compiler backends and such for chips (mostly AI at this point). I completely disagree that this is something humans never do, because I have spent years doing it. However, it's monotonous and boring and LLMs do it better.

> For example humans can only hold like 7 distinct numbers in the short term memory and you would require extra context-management (aka writing things down, storing them in a system entry by entry) while the AI can do this effortlessly with huge datasets.

Correct. For a long time people wer obsessed with 'increasing context length' as if humans have some great context length system in our brains. We don't. I doubt our equivalent of 'context length' (short-term memory) is very long at all. We just have a good training process that puts these memories into long term storage.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by vineyardmike on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:31PM (#50342332)
This does feel big, but the trillion-dollar question: is this trained by OpenAI and can other LLMs do it.

It’s no secret that these big labs see “recursive self improvement” as a primary goal. It seems natural that the models would be explicitly trained to excel at all sorts of ML related tasks as a result. Is this one of those tasks, or is this emergent?

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by jrflo on Monday November 02, 2026 @03:05PM (#50342881)
This seems emergent to me. LLMs are not trained directly on how to read weights, because humans do not understand raw weights, so there is no training data. They're trained on how to use the tools we have like writing python, examining training output and iterating, not writing whole weights from scratch.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by paxy on Monday November 02, 2026 @03:28PM (#50343230)
Humans don’t need to understand the data for models to train on it.

A large enough number of examples of “here are the model weights -> here’s what it does” will achieve this.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by throwaway219450 on Monday November 02, 2026 @03:14PM (#50343015)
In a self-supervised setting you don't need ground truth data, as long as you have a proxy task that you can train on which forces the model to learn something useful. Like cutting out bits of images and telling the model to reconstruct the gaps (i.e. MAEs).

There are also techniques to watermark model weights to confirm what training data were used: https://arxiv.org/html/2512.17075 I'm not an expert in this domain, but it seems like there are lots of pieces that could be used to (a) train a model to infer whether some data were trained on and (b) train a model to understand which weights are relevant for a particular training task in a more explainable way than backprop/gradient descent.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by yorwba on Monday November 02, 2026 @03:16PM (#50343052)
In cases where Astra succeeded, it succeeded using standard techniques also used by humans when they read and write neural network weights. It's a rare skill, mostly used for fun (e.g. https://blog.janestreet.com/can-you-reverse-engineer-our-neu... ) and basic research rather than profit, but Astra is big enough to have learned many rare skills.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by adamsb6 on Monday November 02, 2026 @03:14PM (#50343018)
There is a body of research on mechanistic interpretatibility that probably helped inform this behavior.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by user43928 on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:52PM (#50342680)
I tried it in the Claude web version with Opus 5.5 Medium and it also identified Breakout, even though in one of its explanations it seems to have mixed up some indexes, but the overall reading of the weights was right.

That's also matching what I see when I work with Opus 5.5 to optimize models. It seems to understand what individual layers are for, and can thus sometimes suggest optimizations, where I as a layman would be completely clueless.

The latest models are performing amazingly. Because of this, I disagree with popular comments saying that eg. DeepSeek is good enough, AI-assisted development was where the real value was at, etc.

We see huge progress at the frontier, while the open competition is around GPT-5.5's level, and that model was released in April. Let's see how things develop in the future.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by senordevnyc on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:36PM (#50344150)
The latest models are performing amazingly. Because of this, I disagree with popular comments saying that eg. DeepSeek is good enough, AI-assisted development was where the real value was at, etc.

Completely agree. I often think that those sorts of comments grow out of an understandable lack of imagination. We’ve never had tools like this, and we’ve never had tools that evolved so rapidly, so we easily can get stuck thinking that once a model is good enough to do today’s tasks, that’s really all you need. But the next generation of models often completely obviates the need for those tasks entirely. The software engineers of 2031 won’t be doing tasks anything like the software engineers of today, just like we aren’t doing things like we did in 2021.

(Yes, yes, I know some of you still hand write all your code and think LLMs are today’s crypto bullshit and this is all going to blow over. Not talking to you.)

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by StilesCrisis on Monday November 02, 2026 @08:13PM (#50346719)
All the "competition" is just distilling the frontier, so it makes sense that they are perpetually behind by months.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by caaqil on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:53PM (#50342700)
> It seems natural that the models would be explicitly trained to excel at all sorts of ML related tasks as a result. Is this one of those tasks, or is this emergent?

Maybe there's some general capability, call it g, that can explain all the underlying capabilities and improvements, including on ML tasks? Huh, I am getting a bit of déjà vu here.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by swiftcoder on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:49PM (#50342645)
This is just the model editing weights in the same way humans do when we jailbreak/ablate models. The method isn't novel, the interesting bit is that Astra will do it at all (I'd expect some safeguards in this area around jailbreaks)
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by objektif on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:14PM (#50342051)
How is it even possible though I can’t think of any reason why they would have the intuition.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by swader999 on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:41PM (#50342512)
Could it be already baked into these models because they have already been trained on this task this way?
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by FergusArgyll on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:36PM (#50342422)
My guess: There is a ton of data online of just plain weights laying around. No human would ever actually read it. LLM's read it all during training.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by objektif on Monday November 02, 2026 @03:16PM (#50343050)
But that would cover finite set of cases. I believe this result is more general.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by rsalus on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:13PM (#50343850)
I mean it would make sense if the training using that data resulted in a general set of equations/patterns, it's still really surprising though...
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by gavinray on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:31PM (#50342333)
Based on our current understanding of LLM's, it shouldn't be.

This sort of throws a wrench in the whole "stochastic parrot" idea...

I am not surprised, though I expect many to be.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by user43928 on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:56PM (#50342737)
Yes, this is hardly a shocker to anyone who used the latest models to convert/optimize AI models.

The other day I was thinking about the definition of AGI.

I was asking myself the question that when there is no form of data that I can think of throwing into Claude Code and have it not come up with some sort of intelligent answer about it, is that already general intelligence?

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by marktl on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:00PM (#50343669)
IMO yes
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by rsalus on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:15PM (#50343866)
general knowledge perhaps, but certainly not intelligence in any traditional sense
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by cman1444 on Tuesday November 03, 2026 @12:57AM (#50348583)
Why not? What is the differentiator?
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by dist-epoch on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:19PM (#50343909)
And yet you ask it 3 times to not do a thing, and it does it in a 4th way. A human doesn't fail in this way. And I'm not talking about memory here, single context.

So yeah, it can do everything, but fails in trivial ways around the doing part.

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by whattheheckheck on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:54PM (#50344377)
Others have though much deeper about this its all documented in academic papers and books
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by root_axis on Monday November 02, 2026 @07:44PM (#50346445)
So if that's AGI then what should we call the the thing that can learn from its environment unsupervised like a human or a dog.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by porridgeraisin on Monday November 02, 2026 @02:35PM (#50342410)
See my other comment in this thread
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by dist-epoch on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:17PM (#50343886)
Something like mirror neurons.

Some structures in Astra get activated by the statistics of the Qwen weights, and these structures are associated with "breakout"

Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by aesthesia on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:52PM (#50344361)
Half of these results are just Astra being able to reason through mathematical operations like matrix multiplication and the other half are fairly straightforward applications of mechanistic interpretability.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by dnautics on Monday November 02, 2026 @03:50PM (#50343524)
Was it "intuited" or empirical?
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by KerrAvon on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:31PM (#50344080)
Weights are just data like any other data, and LLMs are really good at dealing with data. I'm really surprised anyone is surprised by this.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by insanitybit on Monday November 02, 2026 @04:54PM (#50344386)
I'm a bit confused about what about this feels emergent or unanticipated.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by lifeisloving on Monday November 02, 2026 @05:38PM (#50345034)
Its not doing it intuitively it has tooling.. People will be amazed at something without even reading the article.
Re:Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen by anon291 on Tuesday November 03, 2026 @01:19AM (#50348700)
You also have intuition on the weights, you just have better things to do with your time than to ponder them.