A birth certificate is just a piece of paper so that's a bit of a red herring. You need to prove you are the person on some form of identity or record and that often includes picture. Why wouldn't you want the most accurate method of identifying you?
If I was in the country legally I would want the best technology to confirm i am the person I say I am. What's the alternative? Human beings eyeballing a license a few seconds?
I'm in the country legally, and I don't care at all how often that is confirmed or by whom.
> What's the alternative? Human beings eyeballing a license a few seconds?
The alternative is dispensing with the notion that some people are illegal and must be purged, or even that this a legitimate function of government.
As long as the state can feign incompetence (let alone launder it with a facial recognition app), this power can easily grow to arbitrary executive authority.
I have no problem with faces being recognized; that's a normal part of living in society. Computers doing it is just a bit more efficient, as you point out. The trouble comes when the state uses it as a liability limiter for their crimes.
That's not an alternative at all. Countries are built by certain groups of people (citizens), based on some underlying principles, culture, values. To preserve that, citizens have the right to decide what kind of people they want to let in. Immigrating to US is a privilege, not a right, as it should be. There's nothing wrong with deporting illegal aliens as long as due process is followed (which I agree is not the case with ICE under Trump, but that's a separate discussion).
I find it hard to keep these discussions separate. If there is no humane way to deport illegal aliens in the volumes ICE is attempting, surely we must push back and say "stop". This facial recognition app is a farce, designed to give a veneer of correctness to racial profiling, and ICE must be prevented from using it.
...because they're not separate discussions at all. There is no example in history of mass deportations being done according to a coherent rule of law. These two things are not of the same impetus; mass deportations are a power-grab, and the rule of law interferes with that.
The only way that a nation gets to a point where mass deportations are plausible (in the sense that there are a sufficient number of people who have entered or stayed without going through a state-prescribed process) is that there is already relative domestic tranquility (otherwise, the "problem" would have been noticed decades earlier).
In our case (in the USA), we have plenty of room, plenty of resources, a wonderful and diverse array of immigrant cultures, and the capacity to defend ourselves against bad actors on an individual and/or community level. There is no need whatsoever for a government thousands of miles away (whose authority is decreasingly recognized anyhow) to tell me who my neighbors can be.
It's borderline farcical.
And do you believe that some secret ICE app is likely to be that best technology?
I have no reason to believe that ICE has any meaningful biometrics that would identify me as a citizen.
It's not a stretch to say ICE can use this information to confirm I am the person I say I am.
It's amazing how much leftist discourse is just them not pretending to understand things, thus making discourse impossible.
> pretending to understand things
Yes, like pretending not to understand that ICE is intentionally bypassing the due process guaranteed by the constitution.
“ICE officials have told us that an apparent biometric match by Mobile Fortify is a ‘definitive’ determination of a person’s status and that an ICE officer may ignore evidence of American citizenship—including a birth certificate—if the app says the person is an alien,”
A legal resident would say "As someone here legally..."
> ICE can use this information to confirm I am the person I say I am
1. You cast doubt on your legal status.
2. The APP says you are not here legally.
3. You have no opportunity to present those things proving you are here legally.
> It's amazing how much leftist discourse is just them not pretending to understand things, thus making discourse impossible.
It's amazing how much conservative dicourse is just them literally not understanding things, thus making discourse impossible.
Consider the literal evil stuff you support, discourse with you is 100% worthless.
ICE is operating outside the bounds of law and basic human decency
“Yeah, I know this is terrible and inhumane, but like, my taxes are kind of high and I’ve got to blame someone. Immigrants seem like maybe they somehow caused all the problems as long as I don’t think about it very hard.”
Sure is weird that DHS claims two million illegal immigrants have left the United States this year but nothing seems to have gotten better yet. Probably just need more deportations. I bet that’ll fix everything.
Immigration rates have not drastically shifted in the last 4 years from the 20+ prior, averaging 1M a year, or .3% of the population. Without immigration, we are below replacement rates
By leeway, do you include the beating people and excessive use of force, or should those agents face consequences?
This dire-ness, it's recent and not something that's been going on since forever? It's something that the last person messed up, and it's an emergency that only the new person can fix, and it's such an emergency that we need to give them powers that WILL later be used against you? It's that dire?
> an ICE officer may ignore evidence of American citizenship—including a birth certificate—if the app says the person is an alien
You should be less credulous.
> It's not a stretch to say ICE can use this information to confirm I am the person I say I am.
ICE is yelling from the rooftops that they don't give a shit about this. It's a stretch to think they will use this information, regardless of can.
But that's not what this is because it cannot be challenged. This is just an adjustable tool to arrest anyone and fits any need.
Okay, I'm officially confused.
IIUC, the ICE announcement says that their facial "recognition" results trump actual documents.
And given that for some groups, state-of-the-art facial recognition algorithms have a 35% false positive rate, that means that for every 100 people snatched up by ICE (with your understanding that "illegals have limited rights.") 30 of them are not who they think they are and being generous, that 10-15% of those are also undocumented despite not being properly identified by the facial "recognition," 25 out of every 100 people in that group arrested will be legal residents or citizens.
And since ICE says that they can ignore actual documents in favor of their "app," those citizens and legal residents may well be deported (to god knows where if they're actually born here) without due process. As such, the whole "Probable cause is something for your lawyer to argue about later." bit may well be irrelevant given your statement about illegals having limited rights.
If ICE assumes incorrectly that you're undocumented, even if you and multiple generations of your ancestors are all born in the US and you can prove it. They explicitly said they will ignore that proof.
As such, based on what ICE claims, you're contradicting yourself. Either folks scooped up by ICE have -- because ICE says so -- "limited rights," and don't require traditional due process for detention and deportation, how does one then get access to a lawyer or court?
I expect you can see why I'm confused about your seemingly contradictory arguments.
I may very well be missing some important detail(s) here. If you could help me to understand what I'm not getting, I'd really appreciate it.
No, it isn't. Birth certificates are how we have proven citizenship in the United States almost since the founding of the Republic.
> ...an ICE officer may ignore evidence of American citizenship—including a birth certificate—if the app says the person is an alien...
What law gives ICE permission to ignore a document created through the authority of a co-sovereign government of our federal system? Responsibility for recording of births and deaths falls to the several States. If my state has issued a birth certificate documenting the fact of my birth, that is it per the 14th Amendment to the Constitution.
ICE is not a court; they do not make determinations of law. If I have a birth certificate or, even more arguably, a passport then that beats whatever cooked up bullshit ICE is spewing from a mobile device. ICE is not a prosecutor; they do not decide who has faked documents or who has real ones.
People need to stop apologizing for ICE vastly overstepping what they are permitted to do in their haste to become an internal secret police.
ICE is 100% going around with the fucking skin color card from family guy and harassing anyone darker than tan. I hope to god that people start pushing back - I saw a video of them doing exactly this to some high school kids and it made my blood boil.
In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, not everyone had a birth certificate: between one-half and three-quarters of births in the United States went unregistered.[1]
Man, remember when the entire right wing lost its shit for months on end over Obama's birth certificate? Truly a magical time to be alive...
The awkward ‘Siemens and the holocaust’ section was so pathetic.
And examples such as "de-Baathification" in Iraq show that even the best-intentioned actions can have wide-reaching and truly devastating unintended consequences. I won't pretend that I have some neat and clean answer to any of this, but there's a persistent sense of moral outrage that feels earned around all of this.
But they're not going to, because the people in charge don't sincerely care about the topic.
As for Iraq: I don't see much evidence that US actions there were "best-intentioned", or even well-intentioned.
It's not like people aren't still frothing at the mouth to repeat the same mistake in Venezuela or Palestine or Yemen. Maintaining empire requires shows of force. There's always profit to be made along the way. It motivates itself
I'm always surprised more people don't know how many Nazis were in NATO offices and the West German federal police
Paul Bremer made something very, very stupid.
Turns out IBM had a rather... Uh, pragmatic attitude towards the uses the nazi regime found for IBM equipment.
Accountability literally means "being forced to give an account of your decisions", i.e. explain the reasons behind why you made the choices you did. The idea is that when you have a public forum of people with common values, merely being forced to explain yourself will activate mechanisms of shame, guilt, and conformism that keep people inline. Otherwise you'll face the judgment of your peers.
This mechanism breaks down when your peers don't hold common values. If nobody agrees on what right and wrong are, you just find different peers until somebody thinks that what you're doing is right. Or you just don't care and figure solipsism vs. the status quo is just a matter of degree.
Perhaps because your peers are recent immigrants who are culturally and linguistically foreign to you, and are physically here primarily because the place they are originally from is terrible, rather than because they are actually interested in joining your community and sharing its values.
This was also one of the more advanced theories about the people selection and targeting AI apps used in Gaza. I've only heard one journalist spell it out, because many journalists believe that AI works.
But the dissenter said that they know it does not work and just use it to blame the AI for mistakes.
You can't be serious.
he didn't say he didn't want to have photos on licenses and passports, indeed it seems to me as the support is for standard ids that he would want these things as they are part of the standard id set.
He said he was against computer vision identifying people, and gave as a reason that they are a computer vision engineer implying that they know what they are talking about. Although that was only implied without any technical discussion as to why the distrust.
Then you say they trust a piece of paper you hand them, which they never claimed to do either, they discussed established processes, which a process may or may not be more involved than being handed a piece of paper, depending on context and security needs.
>You can't be serious.
I sort of feel you have difficulties with this as well.
Good point. Computer vision systems are very fickle wrt pixel changes and from my experience trying to make them robust to changes in lighting, shadows or adversarial inputs, very hard to deploy in production systems. Essentially, you need tight control over the environment so that you can minimize out of distribution images and even then it’s good to have a supervising human.
If you’re interesting in reading more about this, I recommend looking up: domain adaptation, open set recognition, adversarial machine learning.
So you don't trust the computer vision algorithm...
But you do trust the meatbags?
Reminds me of the whole discussion around self driving cars. About how people wanted perfection, both in executing how cars move and ethics. While they drove around humans every day just fine
sure, if an expert in self driving cars came in and said self driving cars are untrustworthy.
That's the magic with not setting a mathematically verifiable acceptance criteria. You just fall back to that kind of horrible argument
no I don't think humans are trustworthy, I think the procedures discussed are more secure than the alternative on offer which an expert in that technology described as being untrustworthy, implying that it was less trustworthy than the processes it was offered as an alternative to, and then gave technical reasons why which basically boiled down to the reasons why I expected that alternative would be untrustworthy
We have photos on licenses and passports so that if you're an ethnic Russian in your 20s and you present an ID with a photo of a black man in his 70s, we can be confident that this is not you.
If you're an ethnic Russian in your 20s and there is another ethnic Russian in their 20s on some kind of list, that is very much not conclusive proof that you're them, because there could be any number of people who look similar enough to each other to cause a false positive for both a person looking at an ID and a computer vision system.
> Why do we even have photos on licenses and passports
To protect against trivial theft-and-use, mostly. Your mention of licenses, in particular, was interesting given how straightforward it is for a relatively-dedicated actor to forge the photo on them (it's tougher to forge the security content in the license; the photo is one of the weakest pieces of security protection in the document).
Perfect? Of course not, nothing we make ever is. A damn bit better than racist security cameras though.
Also: social recovery via trusted relatives.
Downvoted should know I’m not referring to SSO, or social media network auth.
> allows users to regain access to their funds without a traditional seed phrase by leveraging trusted contacts (guardians) and a predefined recovery protocol. If a user loses access, they coordinate with a quorum of these guardians, who each provide a piece of the necessary information to restore
Hmmm, that sounds like it would fail outright in some severe edge cases.
For example mass casualty events (fire, earthquake, war, etc) that only leaves a few survivors.
Those events require special government attention and cost anyway.
Getting Grandma's taxes paid? Not so much. Or: shouldn't!
(The idea is to remove as much user and support burden as possible, not solve societies woes, haha)
Of course the technical solution isn’t easy, (or necessarily all good),
but that doesn’t make it any less likely, or intriguing to discuss the roadmap.
(You combine the scanned data together from both of those scans, regardless of value, as your recovery mechanism, by the way - accounting for abnormal anatomy in a defined, reproducible way is a challenge, not a barrier)
No. The model is, "Hey! this guy is being a pain in the ass. He even claimed that The President wasn't blessed with superintelligence and doesn't actually smell really good!
We need to get this terrorist off the streets! He sure looks a whole lot like that illegal on the FBI most wanted list, doesn't he? Off to CECOT with him!
What's that? He's a twelfth generation citizen? No way! Look, the app I used to claim this guy matches an illegal who's also a child rapist!
Your papers are all fake (if, as a citizen he's even carrying them). Onto the plane with you Senor.
That's the model. Feel free to disagree, but come back and reread this comment in 18 months. I hope you read it then and think "what a paranoid guy! Nothing like that could ever happen here!" But I'm not holding my breath. :(
I'm just pointing out the absurdity of claiming there's no faces in the facial recognition database
https://pages.nist.gov/frvt/html/frvt11.html?utm_source=chat...
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/12/...
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jan/24/met-polic...
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00146-023-01634-z
https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/blog/facial-recognition...
https://surface.syr.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2479&con...
Yeah it's pretty fucking shit, actually.
Here's the science.
LLMs are sycophants, how you ask matters
While doing so can be ok, you should probably do some checking via non-LLM means as well.
Otherwise you'll end up misunderstanding things that you _think_ you've learned about. :(
Anyways, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to nowadays take that philosophy and apply it universally. Just because it was done unfairly and hypocritically in the past is no excuse for us to also be hypocrites nowadays.
The first point should not apply to everyone, but the second absolutely must. Trusting an un-auditable black box over all other evidence to determine who is allowed in the country is a violation of everyone's human rights.
I'm not sure about citizens being deported other than children of non-citizens together with their parents, but they are deporting huge numbers of people here legally on visas, green cards, and valid asylum claims. They revoked visas of some 6,000 college students - mostly for political "wrongthink" and then sent ICE agents after them, when it's actually legal in the USA for them to remain with a revoked student visa as long as they arrived legally, and illegal to detain or deport. They've also arrested and detained hundreds of citizens, that they absolutely knew were citizens, for peaceful protesting and video taping their illegal activities.
Are you saying you’ve seen videos where ICE is like going to bus stops and just beating up random people? Everything I’ve seen is like, ICE rolls up, guys start running, ICE gets rough with them. Or ICE rolls up, people are heckling them, ICE gets rough with them. I think that would happen with any drug bust, for example. If people start heckling a swat team, does the swat team respond with kindness? Well, we don’t see many videos of that, because nobody heckles swat teams. Why are people fleeing, resisting or obstructing? They are law enforcement officers, and if you do that to them, you are going to have a bad time. Law enforcement in America has been like that for my entire life, at least.
Am I in some kind of filter bubble where I’ve only seen ICE videos of the sort I’ve described, and you’ve seen videos of ICE tackling a grandma getting the mail? I’m seriously asking, I just gave up watching videos like this because they were all like I described.
ICE refusing to look at documents seems not unreasonable, have all of those club bouncer tier men had training on how to spot fake government documents? Like can they know what every birth certificate from every state looks like from every year and then verify it on the spot? That doesn’t seem reasonable to expect once I thought about what it would entail.
> and any agents that try to act lawfully are purged
I was replying in a serious manner but comon this is flat earth tier foaming at the mouth stuff. You are seriously telling me that they are firing people who don’t break the law? That is like comic book tier villainy. How would we possibly even know that, did their policy book leak?
My theory is that this is triggering the mental programming everyone had as children about WW2 despite being a completely different situation. If you tell literally all children that X is the most evil thing ever, you might end up with adults who are so sensitive to recognizing X that they see it when it isn’t there.
Distinguishing who is legally allowed to be in the country from who isn't is literally ICE's entire job. If they aren't capable of recognizing official government documentation that definitively proves someone is allowed to be in the country, get them some fucking training before they go around arresting people.
The people who are entrusted with the enormous power of enacting violence on behalf of the state must be held to a higher standard than the people who are entrusted with protecting nightclubs from 20 year olds trying to get booze.
To me, free speech protections prevent rulers from closing off regions of ideology space, because they usually do so in their own self interest so we can’t trust them to do it even in cases when it is clearly for the true long term benefit of the group, which is why it is forbidden for them to forbid “speech”.
I also don’t believe in pornography as protected speech. I’m an atheist, I’m not a conservative, and I’m not against pornography. I don’t support pornography being made illegal. The protected speech argument for it is just stupid. And when you base reasonable practices on stupid legal arguments, you end up having… well, for example, abortion rights getting randomly rolled back by the court.
Yes, in a perfect utopia world, I agree with you that the hiding-foreigner purge guys would also be good at clerical type work. However, from what I’ve seen of humans, they can usually do one kind of thing or the other, not both. Like, guys who like to chase people and knock them down usually don’t like to perform detailed forgery analysis. To expect this is to expect ICE to be staffed by people with an uncommon trait combination. Have you had different experiences? If we had the FBI doing this, then yes the FBI can hire guys who can do both. If a massive org is spun up rapidly, then there is no way to apply the same kinds of hiring practices. I just don’t get the outrage here? Picture that happening in a movie, they hire a ton of guys who are beefy and like to throw people around, and then they rapidly train every one of them to spot fake passports and birth certificates from every state/year. That could make for an entertaining comedy plot, but would you find it realistic in a gritty drama?
Tangentially, I wonder why we haven’t seen more comparisons between ICE and the Spanish Inquisition, it feels much more accurate than the comparisons we do see (e.g. the other N word).
In the last week there were massive purges of regional ICE leadership all around the country, replacing them with more militarized border patrol people, because they have been reluctant to use excessive force. In a 60 minutes interview in the last week, Trump openly stated that he thinks ICE still isn't being violent enough. These purges are not just happening in the government- private universities and companies have been extorted, or attempted to be extorted into performing ideological purges. Take a look at the outrageous letter Trump sent Harvard, demanding that they replace half of their faculty with those in personal political ideological alignment with him, subject to external review by someone he appoints.
Yes, ICE is entering communities and just violently beating up people unprovoked- there are literally hundreds of videos of it that I have seen, on Instagram in particular- including from the ACLU. Look at what happened in Wilder Idaho, where they detained every man, women, and child at a massive public horse racing event, and shot rubber bullets, zip tied, and handcuffed children while sadistically beating their parents in front of them- long high res videos of it are all over.
People absolutely have a legal right to 'heckle' or protest government sponsored violence in their communities, and are being brutalized or detained for exercising their 1st amendment rights, by masked agents refusing to identify so they cannot be held accountable, regardless of their crimes. No, it is not unreasonable to expect federal agents tasked with enforcing immigration law to be mentally capable of reading passports or birth certificates proving citizenship- border agents do this for a million people entering the USA legally every single day.
That's news to me.
HN would appreciate you not making low quality comments in the first place though. The broader view of your comments on this post seem to be ideologically instead of curiosity driven
You can eventually punish humans abusing power. Cant do that wuth software designed to be abusive.
“ICE officials have told us that an apparent biometric match by Mobile Fortify is a ‘definitive’ determination of a person’s status and that an ICE officer may ignore evidence of American citizenship—including a birth certificate—if the app says the person is an alien,”
"Trust the word of the black box" is pure technocratic dystopian nonsense.
I am happy though that we are starting to seem more of this kind of content on HN. I understand that these political (?) posts can descend into finger-pointing and trolling. And that is too bad since I think we should not have blinders on in these rather unsettling times.
I will say that I remember when posts like this one were very quickly flagged when they hit the front page. I am happy to see that more and more people are finding them (unfortunately) relevant.
Incidentally, I was reading about the Lincoln County War recently and realized it was a microcosm for all the kinds of corruption that we see on display nationwide today. The rings controlled commerce and any upstarts were facing brutally low chances for success and would be snuffed out if they became a threat.
1: https://xcancel.com/ProjectLincoln/status/191249066980685851...
When they decide that someone is in the US illegaly using the app... what happens? Is the person apprehended? Driven straight to the border? Taken into custody while more data about them is gathered?
There's no "custody", these people aren't being afforded the Constitutional, legal, or human rights. This is internment by militarised fascist gangs.
"Officer", ha. These are people given a gun and told to go out and brutalise others. There not performing an office of state, they're far outside the law. All, it seems, to try and force those who support democracy to step out of line so Trump/Vance and their handlers can have more people killed and claim civil war is getting in the way of having elections.
If the computer says you’re in the US illegally, but you have documents that say you are a US citizen, then you are put in custody until the discrepancy can be resolved.
It really depends on whether or not there is a standing deportation order for that person. If not, then it’s a lengthy process where you appear in front of a judge who may release you (yes, low risk aliens are still being released) or held in custody until the trial is held.
If you have a standing deportation order, and your identity is confirmed, then yes, you may be deported quite quickly.
No due process is being denied. If you have a standing deportation order, you can be deported.
Readers are likely to interpret this generally and it may act as a lightning rod - the statement may need some qualifiers to define what is not denying due process.
If you are an actual citizen, the law basically says they can briefly detain you to verify. Brief here is meant to be like "15 minutes". However, it is now taking weeks or months in some cases.
These are clear due process violations, and they are happening regularly now.
They also cannot simply ignore authoritative evidence of citizenship because a computer says otherwise, without violating due process (because it affects their ability to have cause).
Certainly they can ignore like a printout or something, but if you have a valid passport or real id drivers license (IE something considered authoritative), it's almost certainly a due process violation to ignore it and detain you for weeks anyway based on a facial recognition match.
Sure if you produce some secure form of proof that has no indication of being fraudulent there is no cause to detain.
But that’s not what’s happening in many cases. People using others ID. Questions about fraud in the immigration case itself.
If you have any examples of US citizens being detained for extended periods (actual citizens, not just a verbal claim) I’d be interested to read about them.
No, but not sure it matters?
"But that’s not what’s happening in many cases. People using others ID. Questions about fraud in the immigration case itself."
Of US citizens being detained? It 100% is not.
The propublica article below gives an example of a citizen being detained, twice, after providing a valid real id from alabama, in their own name.
"If you have any examples of US citizens being detained for extended periods (actual citizens, not just a verbal claim) I’d be interested to read about them."
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us-citizen-detained-ice... is one such case.
There are many others.
In the end, when they discover they are american citizens, they have often falsified affidavits and indicted them on "assaulting officer" charges. The vast majority of these indictments have been dismissed by judges for lack of any evidence.
In case you don't believe that is what happens, here's a case in texas last week where the judge was having none of it, and dismissed just such an indictment after pointing out they were lying repeatedly about their investigations into immigration status, and then lying about how force was used, see:
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txwd.11...
If you want some more stories, here:
https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-...
Yeah, this is exactly the problem. It is not, in fact, illegal to be in this country without a visa. It's a purely civil matter. Like, parking ticket level.
Hauling citizens (or anyone, really) off the street and holding them for indeterminate amounts of times when they haven't committed any crime is not due process.
JP Morgan was sloppy in it's mortgage approvals contributing to the financial crisis of 2007. Do you think that's not a serious matter? That was entirely a civil, not criminal matter.
And overstaying a visa has serious consequences. It's not a fine and you can go on living in the US illegally. You will be deported and receive a 3-10 year ban on re-entry. Reenter again and it's criminal matter.
But you're also ignoring the numerous criminal violations that occur with illegal immigration. Illegal entry, reentry after deportation, immigration fraud, using fraudulent documents, human trafficking, recieving social services reserved for citizens. All of these are criminal violations.
And no, investigating a possible civil or criminal matter and detaining people while you conduct your investigation has nothing to do with due process. Police and immigration officials need these limited powers to do their job. Each of these people detained will either be released or stand in front of a judge, which shows they received due process.
They have repeatedly violated the normal procedures, ignored court orders and even lied to judges. They obviously have contempt for the law so it doesn't make sense to assume that they are following proper procedures.
But at the same time, when the prior norms were incredibly lax to the point many immigration laws were ignored, suddenly enforcing what is on the books can look rather jarring.
Maybe start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uleKvJ5Xsw8
But regardless it’s a 30 min video, so is there something you feel is important because I don’t have the time. Maybe an article from a more reputable source?
I mean it starts with “ICE agents breaking car windows”. If you’re asked to exit your vehicle by a federal law officer and you just roll up the window that will happen. The US (and in fact no country) has rules where a law enforcement officer with probable cause is supposed to give up when a suspect refuses to follow orders.
The five minutes I listened to seemed suspect since it’s a women just saying “they do this” with no sources. Am I just supposed to take her at her word?
Do you want evidence of ICE ignoring legal others? Citizens who were arrested for no reason? An ICE officer admitting they target people based on how they look and not on any actual legal criteria?
Or do you just want to look away and not see?
A YouTube video where someone summarizes what they think is happening is not facts.
But like I said point me to a specific time in that 30 min video you think supports your claim.
You did watch the whole thing, right?
But if you want facts, let me google that for you. :)
Here's journalists documenting ICE arresting citizens. They do not have authority to do so: https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-...
ICE violating rights by deporting citizens: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna224501
ICE holds man in limbo for two and a half months, violating due process: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/oct/30/ice-hidden-d...
Judge rules ICE did not have probable cause: https://thebeaconnews.org/stories/2025/10/09/ice-arrests-imm...
Judge rules ICE behavior "unlawful" by holding someone with protected status for months: https://nysfocus.com/2025/11/01/ice-immigrant-teen-released
Judge rules agents are violating probable cause by making up ICE warrants on the spot: https://www.nprillinois.org/illinois/2025-10-08/court-scruti...
Judge rules ICE violating 5th amendment: https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/rcna218624
Judge rules ICE violating due process. They also are routinely starving detainees and even denying them water: https://calmatters.org/justice/2025/07/la-immigration-restra...
Judge tells ICE to stop using riot and less-lethal rounds on journalists and protesters: https://news.wttw.com/2025/10/14/trump-administration-contin...
If you can't find facts, then it's a skill issue.
That’s incredibly disingenuous claim that “US citizens were deported”. ICE has already stated that US citizen child can remain with family in the US or go with their parents.
I’m guessing your other links of are similar quality.
Due process means limiting the government. You do not get to drag citizens into unmarked vans because you think they might have violated a civil matter.
So ICE go around masked and put people in some kind of camps based on what some app says? And then when they are in the camp what happens?
I don't believe there's a clear picture of what happens next.
Though I know some report the conditions inside the camps are pretty bad, access to lawyers is spotty, reportedly some people are deported without an official removal order / due process, and some people we don't know because they disappear from the public database that's supposed to inform family about the detained person's condition and whereabouts.
I'm not sure if all of that is covered in this BBC report, but feel free to read other journalistic sources
As long as they can claim that whatever they did to you is part of their official duties (which, again, good luck expecting the current federal government to take your side on this even if the ICE officer clearly oversteps their duties) only the federal government/DOJ can prosecute them for misconduct, which also obviously won't happen under the current administration.
This is "computer says no (not a citizen)". Which is horrifying
They've just created an app to justify what they were already doing right? And the argument will be "well it's a super complex app run by a very clever company so it can't be wrong"?