Good to see.

I never got their act, so I never really watched them, but my relatives thought they were great.

Anyway, I did like and enjoy their performance in Babylon 5.

Wouldn't that be "I never really watched them, so I never got their act"? How could you ever expect to get anything you never watch?

They never caught my attention either. Clearly very talented, but not my cup of tea. Maybe it could be an acquired taste, but I'll leave that FOMO on the floor.

When I visited my relatives, if they were on the TV we would watch them.

edit: meant for dylan604 :)

“Never really watched them” doesn’t mean “never watched them even once”.

Penn and teller had a TV show, so it could mean they caught an episode or two and weren’t into it (which, same).

There are many things that cannot be directly observed but can be understood.

The balls and cups with transparent cups is stunning.

Yep, it was probably what pissed off the Magic Circle. https://youtu.be/i0m8CC7Ovj8

The Magic Circle absolutely does not like revealing the trick. Penn and Teller are all about revealing the trick. They see it more or less as their moral duty to make sure you know THERE IS NO MAGIC HERE.

I've always respected them a great amount for that. I'm glad that The Magic Circle finally came around.

Teller has sued at least one magician for revealing Tellers trick

I think it was because they sold the secret as theirs, not for revealing

Do they reveal "novel" tricks they didn't create?

It's one thing to reveal standards like the cups and ball, but another entirely different to spoil a recent trick a living magician is still making money off. I don't think they do the latter.

The balls and cups with transparent cups is still amazing, by the way.

They do not reveal other, living magician's tricks.

So all's good in my book then!

I'm having trouble getting my head around an interview with Teller. We all know he doesn't speak. :)

Here's a talk he did at Google where he talks at length:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJRIkTHqTSE

4:15...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jko5BGhc-Ys

He speaks at the end of the movie “Penn & Teller Get Killed”.

He has a speaking role in an old 1987 baseball movie, "Long Gone", with William Petersen and Virginia Madsen, as the son in a father/son partnership who own a minor league team (Henry Gibson was the dad). Very disorienting to hear him talk when I first saw the movie way back when.

If you go to any of their shows in Vegas, he hangs out after the show and talks with the fans. Felt very weird talking to him.

They don't seem to do this anymore. Or, at least, not without paying some money. I think they have a "Hang with Penn and Teller"-like thing that you can buy VIP tickets for.

The other thing to note is that Penn and Teller are getting old. Penn is 70 and Teller is almost 80! Don't expect anything in their act which requires physicality anymore.

Unfortunately I think they have stopped doing this since COVID.

Maybe Vegas is different, but I saw them just a couple of weeks ago. They were doing a 50th anniversary performance at the place they did their first show together, the Minnesota Renaissance Festival. They hung around in the crowd for at least 20 minutes after the show, talking and letting people get selfies.

These guys are something else. I remember seeing them on Scooby Doo when I was a kid growing up. Their Vegas show is great. I’ve seen several magic shows and specials on TV, but the way they ran the whole thing and let you inspect the stage was super cool.

Penn and Teller: Fool Us is amazing. I went on a binge a year or so ago, watching everything there was to watch on YouTube (which is a lot).

I love how genuinely enthusiastic and encouraging of lesser known magicians they are. Always willing to celebrate their strengths instead of mocking them for their failures.

And they are excellent magicians, too.

My respect for Penn also went up after he realized his hardcore libertarian position was untenable. It was nice seeing him grow out of it.

My favorite episode had a magician do a great act about reading the paper, and all these terrible things spilled out and then he closed it, reopened it and good things spilled out. Penn and Teller of course recognized a zombie and a twilight seance but went out of their way to say how moving and entertaining they found the act.

>I went on a binge a year or so ago

I did the same a few years ago and it was one of the few series that kept me hooked, trying to figure out how the contestants try to fool Penn and Teller. I'll need to revisit for some newer episodes that I may have missed..

A bit off topic but no one else brought up Penn's great acting as Hal the system admin in Hackers (1995), a classic movie that everyone should be familiar with (and if not, worth checking out!).

I think we gotta hacker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2OYNMO_mNw (first 20-30sec)

The show Fool Us is wonderful…and this clip in particular is my favorite: https://youtu.be/5_KcQt0z-eE?si=xO5gTByzV0spzS2e

Even if you never want to practice magic, I highly recommend buying a few Dani DaOrtiz lectures. The way his mind works is phenomenal, and the things he talks about (psychology, how people think, crafting experiences) are applicable across the board.

(I rarely perform his tricks... they're brilliant, but they're so perfectly suited for his style that I can't even come close to pulling them off without seeming like a confused idiot. But I love watching him explain what goes into each trick. This specific trick is available on Vanishing.)

I’ll check it out! I’ve watched hundreds of tricks on Fool Us and the moment I watched his act I was stunned. Just absolutely beautiful performance.

He has a youtube channel where he performs most of the tricks in his courses (just not how to do them). After you watch for a while, you realize that he can get great effects out of moves that don't even take significant sleight of hand: He might be doing the most blatant manipulation in the middle of some comedy bits that make it invisible to anyone engrossed in the performance.

Now, that specific Fool Us performance has moves most magicians cannot pull off, but still, a large percentage of the act involves his standard slew of tricks to put a lot of randomness where it doesn't matter, while there is no randomness near the cards that matter.

Fantastic. Another great one that blew my mind (and P&T's) is Nick Einhorn from the first season, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma-S9-bgvlg&t=77s

Nah this trick is crap, it's just stooging. Kind of disappointing they let it on.

They don't allow stooges in the show.

And the magician cannot lie, since he/she has to convincingly explain how the trick works to the producers, beforehand.

I was only half way paying attention because I was enjoying the joy of everyone around him.

I wonder if it will hold up the next time I watch. I keep notes for my daughters to read some day and wrote about this tonight (it’s been too long since I wrote them), I hope this video will still be around when they are ready to read the notes so they can experience it too.

May I suggest a little yt-dlp and an external HD to go along with those notes? A digital archive doesn't have to be restricted to family photos.

;)

I have young children and this is a sweet idea. Thanks!

As someone who has watched this video approximately 100 times already I can tell you: it holds up.

Back when national TV mostly showed national magicians, and sparingly, my family loved "Fool Us" because it brought such a variety of different magicians from all around the world into our living room. My favourite magician I've discovered since being online is Lennert Green https://www.ted.com/talks/lennart_green_close_up_card_magic_...

Really wish he'd been on Fool Us!

Lennart Green is actually one of DaOrtiz "parents" in magic (the other being Juan Tamariz). You can see Lennart's spirit in his use of chaos.

Great to hear. I'll never forget running into Teller in the lobby of a small show I went to that he was also in the audience for. I sheepishly asked for an autograph and he was very friendly and gracious (and spoke!).

Did the speaking ruin some of the magic, or did it make the experience even more special?

More special definitely.

There's plenty of video of Teller speaking. Being mute is a stage performance thing, not a mystical lifestyle choice.

Example (and an interesting talk by the way): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5x14AwElOk

It's interesting how that went from a cool magic trick demonstration to a profound lesson on human nature and manipulation tactics.

So? It's still similar to meeting the actor playing a favorite character in a movie or series. Some people prefer to never stop suspending their disbelief and that's also fine.

When Teller chooses to be in character is a choice for him to make, not his fans. I'm merely describing reality, not expressing a preference. Don't shoot the messenger.

Nobody is "shooting" any "messengers", I'm just raising an eyebrow at messengers who state the obvious with a tone as if I'm a child who still believes in Santa Claus. I genuinely do not see how you managed to conclude that I needed to be explained that the muteness is an act.

Do you understand the difference between rationally knowing something is an act and the experience of actually seeing an actor out of an acting context?

I am not sure why they even bother...they are at the top of their fields and they are household names in America that are synonymous with magic. Not since Houdini has there been such famous magicians in show biz. The professional organizations should be naming prizes after them instead of them begging to be part of the in-group. You don't see Bill Gates, Jobs, or Torvalds begging to join the IEEE.

I think the difference here is that Penn and Teller are just as much historians of magic as they are magicians themselves. Accepting the honor is also accepting that the history is still relevant and worth celebrating. Making this into an ego thing misses the point a bit, I think.

Keeping them out might have been due to some oldtimer in the organization that couldn't let go of the "never reveal secrets" gospel, whilst newer members at the top recognize that with todays social medias the cat's truly out of the bag and alienating the biggest household names is just counter-productive.

I think they've also seen that American Wrestling seems to be doing fine even if the entire fakeness is out in the open.

Gives me Rush vibes when Rolling Stone finally put them on the cover 41 years, 19 albums, and millions of sales and sold out tours later. Not to mention the R&R HOF…

The thing I really love about magic is that so much of it boils down to “I practiced for years and developed a seemingly superhuman ability to manipulate this object”.

I really relate to this because despite being at least ostensibly “gifted” my entire academic career, almost all of my professional success has been because I have been willing to climb steep learning curves at the expense of hours of my life and extreme frustration.

In short, I can relate because I too practice a type of “up close” magic which few people can even appreciate.

“Sometimes magic is just someone spending more time on something than anyone else might reasonably expect.” - Teller

Kostya Kimlat comes to mind.

Those beady little eyes! https://youtu.be/SCFXV6o7cro?si=T7TCSHAkHvkcI2SX

[delayed]

I can just reiterate my prior comment:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCFXV6o7cro&lc=UgyhehHF9YBGF...

(-:

For M. Kimlat's own commentary and someone else's particularly insightful comment:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49CSV2w0i0g&lc=UgxqIy_Vgt37q...

For the time spent on prep for the second appearance:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5VTb7fesN4

Nice, I didn't know Teller writes package.json files.

A good specific example of this that isn't widely known is the "muscle pass".

It amounts to holding a coin in a classic palm position (dead center of the palm), then spending several months strengthening the palm muscles and developing a callus, until you can propel the coin a foot or so without noticeably moving your hand.

Random video demonstrating:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sJJNULXJT0Q

That's also a trick

Edit: but look, it's a good one. A little bit of reality mixed in so it looks cool

That reminds me of a few episodes of Fool Us where they gave the prize to the guest because they knew exactly how the trick was done, but were literally unable to physically detect the person doing it because their skills were just that good.

Jason Ladayne is a great example. His card control is unreal: https://www.youtube.com/user/CardMagicByJason

Jason is phenomenal. There is absolutely no telling how many hours he has had a deck of cards in his hands.

The foundations of card magic are certainly out there, and for me knowing how the fundamental slights work make it that much more magical to see it performed at such a level. No different than having played a sport makes spectating that much more interesting and appreciable.

Saw him live in person and I couldn't see a thing, no clue how he was doing it.

I've seen other famous magicians live and up close you can catch move or notice things but he was pure skill.

Feels like the perfect thread to re-link to my favorite card-trick movie - Ricky Jay and His 52 Assistants. Not only is he a deft card manipulator, but he is a great story teller with a vast knowledge of magic history.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z7InE1zXAY4&pp=ygUfcmlja3kgamF...

Ricky Jay was legendary, on the level of Houdini, and a gift to Hollywood as an adviser and occasional (but good) character actor. As good as he was at cards, he admitted others were better - but none beat him at throwing cards into targets. The man could probably have assassinated with a poison-laced deck, no lie.

He took on a young "partner" (mentored a student, but without admitting it), and presumably taught him much in his last years. Hopefully nearly all.

what's your favorite speciality?

A learning curve is a model for how much you can learn over time. A subject with a steep learning curve is actually one that doesn’t take much time to reach a high level. It’s the subjects with shallow slopes that take more work to raise up to proficiency.

No, the typical meaning of a learning curve is the path you walk up the hill - some hills are very steep, which takes a lot of effort.

True, that meaning seems to be typical now. The opposite is the original meaning though.

> Scores of authors use the phrase “steep learning curve” or “sharp learning curve” in reference to a skill that is difficult to master. . . . Nevertheless, from the standpoint of learning theory, these and other authors have it backward, because a steep learning curve, i.e., a curve with a large positive slope, is associated with a skill that is acquired easily and rapidly (Hopper et al., 2007).

Source: Fifty psychological and psychiatric terms to avoid: a list of inaccurate, misleading, misused, ambiguous, and logically confused words and phrases (https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10....)

Yes, but most people can hold two competing definitions in their head at the same time!

Overlooking your comment, I sanction your opinion.

Everyone is talking about curves, but no one's talking about how the axes are labeled.

Based on common usage of the term learning curve, I had thought of it much like a power curve where the y-axis is the amount of cumulative effort you have to put in to reach a particular point on the x-axis, which measures mastery. Sounds like the official definition is effort on the x-axis and the total amount you've learned on the y-axis, which would indeed invert the meaning from how I've understood it.

It's a bit of a fossilized error. Like "this begs the question of...", "head over heels", "sleeping like a baby", and "Have your cake and eat it too" everyone should understand what it means, even if it doesn't stand up to technical analysis.

obligatory random mention that the last one is how they caught the unabomber.

> so much of it boils down to “I practiced for years and developed a seemingly superhuman ability to manipulate this object”.

Amateur magician here (but a magician member of the Magic Castle, so I know a few things). Manual dexterity is certainly a useful skill, but it's just a tiny part of the art of magic. You can be a consummate sleight-of-hand artist and still be a mediocre magician, and conversely, some of the best magicians don't use particularly difficult sleights. The best example of that I know of is Dani Da Ortiz's routine on Penn and Teller Fool Us:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_KcQt0z-eE

Now, Dani is in fact a master at sleight-of-hand, and so one would think that you are watching a masterclass in sleights, but no. There are a few sleights, but they are not particularly difficult, beginner-level. I could do them, and I'm not particularly skilled. The trick is based almost entirely on timing and misdirection and psychological subtleties.

The degree of psychological subtlety in top-level magic continually blows my mind. The best magicians make it look like magic even when you know how the trick is done. Dani's trick is a consummate example. The performance looks like chaos, but in fact every detail is meticulously crafted and serves a purpose. It's almost like watching a dance.

" The best magicians make it look like magic even when you know how the trick is done. "

Agree with this. I remember being the 'skeptic kid' at a birthday party long ago. The magician involved me in a trick everyone could figure out but it was done with charm and I was completely delighted.

You are absolutely correct.

When teaching this whole routine, Dani spends much more time on the psychological background and nudges that are used, rather than the physical card manipulation techniques.

Yep. I am blown away not just by Dani's execution of this routine, but also by its design. It is a true thing of beauty, with layer upon layer of subtlety that most audience members will never appreciate because they don't know it's there. It is deliberately hidden. It has to be. Being hidden is an essential part of its function. Which is why I always try to seize the opportunity to raise awareness of this sort of thing among muggles.

BTW, if you are a Castle member, Carl Hein is currently doing a routine in the Library Bar that is IMHO in the same league Dani's Fool Us routine. We took some friends of ours to the Castle a week ago and Karl absolutely melted their brains. They're still talking about it. :-)

(And if you're not a Castle member but are in the LA area, contact me privately and I can set you up with a guest pass.)

>willing to climb steep learning curves

fwiw, learning curve theory relates how much learning you get through time or episodes of experience. a lot of learning from a small amount of experience (easy to learn) means you will slide quickly down that steep learning curve. a shallow learning curve implies that it takes a great deal of experience to learn.

Good for them, they deserve it

Does anyone have a good recommendation for a video to watch of their magic? Preferably something that’s a longer form, like something on Netflix or prime video

They have a MasterClass® class that you might like if you have an account (or if you don't!)

https://www.masterclass.com/classes/penn-and-teller-teach-th...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2souL3UxLtg This is a pretty good example of their prime. They play in Vegas, so in person is always worthwhile.

watching this particular episode one might get the impression they are just trying to make fun of other magicians...

On Fool Us they do their own acts as well.

And what's remarkable to me is how nice they are to the other magicians, how willing to help and celebrate them, never heckle them. These are genuinely cool guys.

yes, fool us is remarkably different. but then, the whole show is designed to showcase and celebrate others. that older show wasn't. it's like they have grown up.

I enjoyed their live show very much in Las Vegas. It looks like they are currently touring. I would check them out if get a chance.

It would be remiss not to mention James Randi as well, who while being a magician also had a career exposing genuine fraudsters (who wanted you to take them seriously, unlike Randi's magic)

Ha. I'll see your genuine fraudsters and raise you an authentic counterfeit.

And James Randi was a role model for Penn.

There is a documentary "An Honest Liar" about him. It goes to unexpected places

Good for them! They bucked plenty of the "rules of magic", but no doubt inspired another generation somewhere. I hope the craft never dies.

What does 'bucked' mean in this context?

Like a ‘bucking bronco,’ a horse kicking high and trying to throw off its rider - you ‘buck’ something to get it off of you, to get it off your back, to shake it off, to get out from under it. You might also see it in ‘bucking a trend.’

So it means “to act against” / “to escape from” the rules.