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Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by janice1999 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @01:59PM (#40838754)
Governments really need to break the Visa and Mastercard Duopoly.

Not mentioned in this article, but certainly related, was the Canadian governments unprecedented step to freeze hundreds of bank accounts of protestors during COVID protests using their Emergencies Act. While I couldn't be more politically removed from the protestors, using a legislative power envisioned for war like conditions to personally ruin protestors financially is more than worrying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergencies_Act

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by smnrchrds on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:29PM (#40838995)
Canada's credit cards work on Visa, MasterCard, or Amex networks. However, debit cards work on a domestic network called Interac. About half of card transactions in Canada are debit card transactions.

https://payments.ca/sites/default/files/PaymentsCanada_Canad... page 7

EDIT: In the past few years, many Canadian banks have started issuing dual-network debit cards that bear both Visa and Interac logos (sometimes MasterCard and Interac). These cards use the Interac network in Canada, but can also be used online and abroad using the second network. I just wanted to mention it for people who may be curious about the apparent shift in debit card networks.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by amaccuish on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:29PM (#40839540)
Sounds like a mirror of the Girocard here in Germany. My bank card now has both girocard and visa on it, and works online.

Allegedly, Wero, coming from the banks of the EU, should in the next year or two, unite all the similar national systems across Europe in to one, I guess kind of like UnionPay.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by Thlom on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:10PM (#40839957)
Same in Norway, we've always had BankAxxept and Visa on debit cards and most credit cards have been Mastercard. BankAxxpet handles the vast majority of transactions.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by tomashm on Monday July 01, 2024 @07:14AM (#40844632)
"BankAxept is the first client to license Interac payment solutions internationally." (2016)

https://www.interac.ca/en/content/news/interac-collaborates-...

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by gary_0 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:35PM (#40839608)
The dual-network cards are Visa/Mastercard "debit" cards, which look like a credit card but sometimes don't work like one. I never had a problem with my dual-network card when physically visiting the States, but for whatever reason, some online payment systems (especially ones in Canada) have trouble with it. And vendors are clueless as to what the problem is when the debit CC number fails to go through.

Just recently I tried to pay at a parking kiosk with my dual-network card, and it repeatedly failed with a generic error. So I had to use my credit card (which I only got for this kind of situation) instead.

So often when trying to pay with a CC number, only a credit card will work. It's pretty dumb.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by bonestamp2 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:11PM (#40839965)
[delayed]
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by scosman on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:29PM (#40840122)
Fees are lower for the merchant. As a result it is less likely to see a 50c surcharge to use a card with debit. Places like convenience stores often only have debit.

Personally I use credit for anything major, for the protections.

People who have poor credit can use debit if they can’t get a credit card, or want to make a purchase above their limit.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by lanstin on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:30PM (#40840129)
I am not Canadian but I am irresponsible and a debit card lets me just spend in a relatively stateless fashion. Check online account, if money can spend, otherwise not. I change the card numbers pretty often so not too worried about fraud. I use PayPal for recurring payments/subscriptions.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by gary_0 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:56PM (#40840302)
I just want to pay for things. I'm not interested in spending money I don't have. And credit cards are obviously waiting to pounce on me if I forget to pay the balance, and charge an insane amount of interest. I don't need the added complication.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by bonestamp2 on Monday July 01, 2024 @05:32PM (#40850960)
Sure, that's one way to look at it. But I set my credit card to pay off the entire balance every month so I don't worry about any of those concerns. But, I also get the benefits that most cards offer (automatic extended warranties, purchase protection, price protection, etc).
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by jjav on Monday July 01, 2024 @02:54AM (#40843243)
> Aren't the consumer protection benefits greater with credit card?

Yes, consumer protection regulations (and benefits) are better on credit cards (at least in the US, I don't know about other countries).

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by notatoad on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:58PM (#40839828)
>some online payment systems (especially ones in Canada) have trouble with it.

it's not really anything technical that they "have trouble with", most gateways launched visa debit as an "opt-in" payment method for existing merchants, so if the merchant did not specifically enable it it never got enabled. newer merchant accounts have it enabled by default, so this should sort of work itself out over time. but yes, i don't understand why they made merchants opt in, it's pretty dumb.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by gmokki on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:26PM (#40840096)
EU/Finland has used debit+credit combination cards over 21 years.

20 years ago the card type caused confusion going abroad, especially US, but also some European countries that had not yet introduced the same card type. Some merchants were confused about the extra prompt about which card to use before the customer enters the pin.

But it has worked fine 99% of exotic places. I think the 3D secure caused much more trouble when shopping online when it was introduced compared to the choice of using either the debit vs credit variant online.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by amaccuish on Monday July 01, 2024 @01:34AM (#40842829)
Not here in Germany unfortunately. I miss this from NZ, just one card with savings, credit, cheque all in one.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by cooljacob204 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:13PM (#40839370)
The wiki article you linked specifically says it's for more then war like conditions.

"take extraordinary temporary measures to respond to public welfare emergencies, public order emergencies..."

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by ekanes on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:44PM (#40839699)
Totally fair. A better criticism of the government's choice might be whether or not the trucker protest constituted a legitimate emergency.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by radford-neal on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:03PM (#40839879)
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by throw0101b on Sunday June 30, 2024 @05:02PM (#40840346)
And a public inquiry, which is mandated by the Act itself when it is invoked, said that it did:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Emergency_Commiss...

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by radford-neal on Monday July 01, 2024 @12:01AM (#40842429)
The court's ruling has actual legal effect. The inquiry's conclusion is, well, just somebody's opinion.

One might also note that the invocation was never approved by parliament (it was terminated before the deadline for the Senate to vote on it).

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by anttiharju on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:30PM (#40839553)
You may be interested in reading about digital euro https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.ht...

Although it's nothing concrete yet afaik

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by rperez333 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:48PM (#40840247)
Most countries should study the Brazilian system called Pix. It's faster than Interac, controlled by the central bank and very accessible to its population. https://www.bcb.gov.br/en/financialstability/pix_en
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by JSDevOps on Sunday June 30, 2024 @06:23PM (#40840868)
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by api on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:08PM (#40839331)
We are sleepwalking toward an absolute totalitarian panopticon in the name of convenience. The cashless thing is just a tiny part.

I had little to no sympathy with the protestors either but that definitely crossed a line, and do we really think that will only ever be used against those kinds of protestors. I’m sure it will happen at some point to indigenous people protesting an oil and gas project or something. It’s now a tool in the arsenal to crush protests.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:24PM (#40838944)
Except they weren't just "protestors," were they? They were criminals who were soliciting donations to support unlawful activities. FA, FO.

(And yes, the same thing should have happened to the CHOP occupiers, if they were receiving outside support.)

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by pasabagi on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:27PM (#40838970)
It's often pretty hard to do public protest without breaking some kind of law, even if you do everything you're supposed to.

I'm not a fan of the truckers (the loud horns were totally infuriating) but the fundamental problem was that the police didn't want to move them on, not that they were breaking the law.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by throw0101b on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:57PM (#40839251)
> It's often pretty hard to do public protest without breaking some kind of law, even if you do everything you're supposed to.

All movements start small, and if you want to have your movement be a success it involves bringing more and more people over to your point of view / side.

One can be disruptive in that you hold a rally or march to raise awareness, and be seen (in numbers) by folks on the street. Marches / parades are disruptive to traffic but if you've planned it and told people about it then they can plan around it. One can also go in, cause some trouble, and then disperse so that you get in the news but also do not piss of non-involved people.

But being disruptive so that you piss people off is a way to not get more people onto your side of your movement. It is a way to inhibit further involvement of the public towards your side.

A movement must be aware of how its actions are perceived by non-members of the movement. Just because you interpret things a certain way does not mean that the general public won't view you as a jackass:

> “It’s a sign of independence,” he said. “I look at it as a rebel sign. In the biker community, a lot of people have the Confederate flag because we’re rebels.”

> But to many, the flag is a racist symbol and a disturbing reminder of the U.S. Confederacy’s fight to preserve slavery. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau denounced their display at the Ottawa protest, saying his government wouldn’t give in to “racist flags.”

* https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/freedom-convoy-supporter-says-...

I don't know which "biker community" this guy is talking about, but as a motorcyclist I don't view the Confederate flag positively.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by portaouflop on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:58PM (#40839824)
> But being disruptive so that you piss people off is a way to not get more people onto your side of your movement. It is a way to inhibit further involvement of the public towards your side.

While I agree to some extent with your comment, I think there is some nuance needed. For a movement to succeed you need to be disruptive and piss some people off. It just depends in what way disruptive and who you piss off.

For example take the women’s rights movements. Were they disruptive and did poss a lot of people off? Hell yeah they did. Did they ultimately succeed and get the public opinion on their side. Also yes.

Another (horrifying) example is the nazi movement. They were extremely disruptive and pissed off a ton of people when they were still an extreme fringe group. Precisely because of that they became very successful.

There are many more examples like that. A protest movement needs to be disruptive to some extent to be successful

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by mandmandam on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:19PM (#40839435)
That argument was used (a lot) to decry suffragette protests and desegregation protests.

I for one am glad that women and black people didn't take it too seriously.

You may want to read some MLK - he had some very clear words about the liberal who demands civility in the face of oppression.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by throw0101b on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:34PM (#40839591)
> You may want to read some MLK - he had some very clear words about the liberal who demands civility in the face of oppression.

It is not about acting civilly. It is about messaging.

If non-movement people consider you as a bunch of jackasses, do you think they will join your cause, or even have sympathy towards it? You need to communicate your message—words and actions—so that, at the very least, people will have a neutral opinion. If you're actually good, then people will have a positive opinion of you and your goals.

> Days later, King was quietly bailed out and ejected from prison by Albany police chief Laurie Pritchett, who had studied the nonviolence protest method and released King to undermine it. In other cities, violence by police against peaceful demonstrators brought outcry and sympathy. But Pritchett met nonviolence with nonviolence. Within weeks, the protest fizzled out. For King, Albany was largely a failure, and his takeaway was for the movement to better pick its spots.

[…]

> It was far from total victory, but King had something more important: the attention of an outraged and rapt nation. The legacy of the water cannons and dogs, of callused feet and imprisoned children, would be incarnated in the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act and the Twenty-Fourth Amendment, which banned poll taxes. Montgomery and Birmingham also formed the script for peaceably countering injustice in a nation founded on protest. From antiwar protests during Vietnam to Occupy Wall Street and beyond, King’s commitment to nonviolent protest lives on.

* https://time.com/5101740/martin-luther-king-peaceful-protest...

It is why violence is usually such a bad idea: most non-members of a movement don't want to get into that, and would probably see the movement as a bunch of thugs. In a survey of 600 movements since 1900, Chenoweth et al found that those that used violence were successful ~25% of the time, but non-violence had a >40% success rate.

* https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/44096650-civil-resistanc...

* https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/capsule-review/2021-1...

* https://www.hks.harvard.edu/behind-the-book/erica-chenoweth-...

* https://www.peacejusticestudies.org/chronicle/review-of-civi...

You almost double your chances of success by gaining sympathy versus 'acting out'. Do you think the race riots helped or hindered the civil rights movement?

> Let me say as I've always said, and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. I'm still convinced that nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom and justice. I feel that violence will only create more social problems than they will solve. That in a real sense it is impracticable for the Negro to even think of mounting a violent revolution in the United States. So I will continue to condemn riots, and continue to say to my brothers and sisters that this is not the way. And continue to affirm that there is another way.

* https://www.crmvet.org/docs/otheram.htm

If you want to actually achieve your goal(s) then non-violence and public opinion are important things to consider.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by mandmandam on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:47PM (#40839726)
You seem to be trying to conflate blocking a road and honking your horn with violence... In order to defend fucking with non-violent protesters bank accounts directly (and very illegally).

Lots of people claimed that anyone who didn't respect lockdowns and wear masks were being "violent" - is that what you're trying to do here?

> If you're actually good, then people will have a positive opinion of you and your goals.

Lol. I really don't know how anyone could say that with a straight face. Was MLK popular with people who thought segregation was cool and fun?

Or is your argument that he was wrong to act as he did...

Is Trump "actually good" because people love him?

That logic ain't logicing man. Idk where you got that idea but it isn't explaining reality very well is it.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by throw0101b on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:58PM (#40839832)
> You seem to be trying to conflate blocking a road and honking your horn with violence... In order to defend fucking with non-violent protesters bank accounts directly (and very illegally).

Do you want your movement to succeed? If yes, then don't piss off the non-members / the general public, and try to get them on your side.

That is what MLK understood and did.

That is what Nelson Mandela did not understand when he was young (when he did acts that caused him to go to jail), but did understand when he was older.

It is also what Ghandi (who also spent in jail) understood.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by adamiscool8 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:27PM (#40840105)
>“We do not need allies more devoted to order than to justice,” Martin Luther King, Jr.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by throw0101b on Sunday June 30, 2024 @09:20PM (#40841792)
What justice was the trucker convoy looking for? What injustice were they fighting against? What grave depravity had they long suffered against?

You are quoting from "Letter from a Birmingham Jail", which also states:

> In any nonviolent campaign there are four basic steps: collection of the facts to determine whether injustices exist; negotiation; self purification; and direct action.

* https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....

The convoy did not do the first three steps, or if they did, they did not effectively show the public that they did.

From my perspective (or "my truth" as the kids are wont to say these days) they were a bunch of anti-vaxxers railing against da gubermint.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by adamiscool8 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @09:41PM (#40841884)
While that can be your truth, it may be worth re-evaluating because it is not reflecting reality, then:

> In August 1963, Gallup found considerable public opposition to the now-famous civil rights march on Washington in which King delivered his "I Have a Dream" speech. The poll was conducted about two weeks before the march, at which time 71% were familiar with "the proposed mass civil rights rally to be held in Washington, D.C., on Aug. 28." Of those who were familiar, only 23% said they had a favorable view of "the rally"; 42% had an unfavorable view of it (including 7% who predicted violence would occur) and 18% said it wouldn't accomplish anything. [0]

[0] https://news.gallup.com/poll/103828/civil-rights-progress-se...

— or now:

> What is also clear is that sympathy with the movement is no longer at a point where the minority, which has been categorized as being on the fringes, is grossly overshadowed by the majority. A sizeable minority of Canadians (37%) agree (16% strongly/21% somewhat) that while they might not say it publicly, they agree with a lot of what the truck protestors are fighting for [1]

[1] https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/nearly-half-say-they-...

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:34PM (#40839587)
So MLK and the suffragettes blockaded the town square and blew truck horns all night. Got it.

Oh, wait, no, they voluntarily sacrificed their freedom and were arrested, beaten, and tortured for their beliefs. I guess you're confused.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by mandmandam on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:43PM (#40839691)
Suffragettes did block roads, yes.

So did MLK.

Lol.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by sys_64738 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @07:07PM (#40841152)
Not forgetting being executed by the government. Trumpers from the 1950s and 1960s.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by dang on Monday July 01, 2024 @08:44PM (#40852451)
You posted many flamewar comments in this thread and appear to have done more than any other single account to spoil it. We ban accounts that do this, and your account has (it turns out) been doing it for a long long time:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34537163 (Jan 2023)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22904111 (April 2020)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22114100 (Jan 2020)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19449785 (March 2019)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18233901 (Oct 2018)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16783015 (April 2018)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14278148 (May 2017)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10780427 (Dec 2015)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9985956 (Aug 2015)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8825352 (Jan 2015)

That's excessive and abusive. We need you, same as any other user, to follow the site guidelines regardless of how right you are or feel you are, and regardless of how wrong others are or you feel they are.

I appreciate your substantive posts but it's also the case that you've been posting abusively in totally other contexts (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40759689). If you keep this up we're going to have to ban you, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and fix this, that would be good.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by CamperBob2 on Tuesday July 02, 2024 @10:46AM (#40857222)
Actually I think I'll stand by quite a few of those comments, Dan, including the ones I've posted in this thread. If you feel the need to ban my account, I won't stand in the way, but I will say I don't respect a lot of the objections you've gone back almost 10 years to dig up, especially when considered in the larger context of the threads in question.

Don't want flame wars? Don't post flamewar-inciting links, as many of those arguably are, then object selectively when some people take the bait you're dangling.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by dang on Tuesday July 02, 2024 @02:53PM (#40859437)
> Don't want flame wars? Don't post flamewar-inciting links

That's not how HN works. Commenters are responsible for how they react and whether or not they follow the rules. It's not as if you have zero choice in whether you get incited or not, although I know it sometimes feels that way (to me too).

To remove an entire topic to prevent some commenters from posting abusively would be to punish the ones who are following the rules just fine. I don't think that's how HN should operate. Here's another recent post in case it's of interest: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40852027

Of course, not every story is on topic for HN, and indeed most provocative stories aren't—but that's a separate question. Some are, and the rules still apply in those cases. In fact, they apply especially then, as the guidelines make clear: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by pasabagi on Sunday June 30, 2024 @06:36PM (#40840964)
I don't know: as I understood it, the trucker thing was basically about showing that they occupy a strategic position in the Canadian economy. It's like the old rail strike idea: it doesn't matter if everybody hates you, if the trains aren't running, then the government has to make a deal, otherwise the economy collapses.

I don't think they actually did hold that strategic position (if the police had, you know, done their jobs, they wouldn't be blocking the roads for long), but if you know that the police won't do that (because they always baby right wing protestors) it makes some sense. And that was a lot of the rhetoric from the truckers about themselves: I guess we'd just come out of the pandemic with all these sudden realizations about essential workers, which definitely included truckers, and there's often (but probably not in the trucker's case) a connection between being 'essential' and 'occupying a strategically advantageous position'.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by throw0101b on Sunday June 30, 2024 @09:06PM (#40841713)
> I don't know: as I understood it, the trucker thing was basically about showing that they occupy a strategic position in the Canadian economy.

And yet various organizations that represent truckers, both organized unions and independents, distanced themselves from the convoy:

* https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/embarrassment-for-the-industry...

* https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/canadian-trucking-...

* https://teamster.org/2022/02/teamsters-denounce-freedom-conv...

If the convoy was anything but a bunch of anti-vaxxers, they failed to really convey that message from my perspective.

> And that was a lot of the rhetoric from the truckers about themselves: I guess we'd just come out of the pandemic with all these sudden realizations about essential workers […]

I have first-hand knowledge of essential workers because of family connections to nursing and retail (food/groceries). I also have family connections to people who actually run trucking companies, and do maintenance on rigs.

I personally got deemed an essential worker by my company because of my IT role, and got a letter on company letterhead stating as such for any time I had to come into the office, in case I should perhaps be stopped for breaking curfew (the organization I was with had connections with medical treatment).

I don't think anyone would reasonably deny truckers are often essential, but the number of truckers making a fuss about was a tiny majority that worked in the industry.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by grecy on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:28PM (#40839521)
> They were criminals

Convicted in a court of law, I assume?

Innocent before proven guilty and all that.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by Dig1t on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:29PM (#40838993)
They were peacefully protesting, how were they criminals?
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by throw0101b on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:52PM (#40839193)
> They were peacefully protesting, how were they criminals?

They were protestors until they started living on the streets, at which point they became occupiers (CC §63(1)):

* https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/protesters-build-wooden-structure-...

* https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-truck-convoy-pr...

* https://pressprogress.ca/photos-show-young-child-with-a-gas-...

When ordered to disperse they did not, which now goes into disobeying lawful police orders.

And if I was a resident of Ottawa, I doubt I would have considered 24/7 honking and the generation of noise "peaceful" (CC §31).

* https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/angela-hewitt-play...

If you want your movement to succeed and goals achieve your goals you need to get the public on your side, not piss them off and consider you inconsiderate jackasses.

Also: is shutting an international border crossing (bridge), which affects the commutes and livelihood (via supply chains) of thousands of people every day, "peaceful"?

* https://ccla.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Know-Your-Rights...

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by fouc on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:12PM (#40839365)
Sounds like we need some sort of Geneva Conventions around protesting, a set of rules that protestors & governments can agree on so that we differentiate between "legit protesting" vs not.

Was Occupy Wallstreet illegit?

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by nick_ on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:49PM (#40839171)
They were blowing freight truck horns at all hours of the day and night. Tens of thousands of people's lives and sleep were disrupted for weeks on end. 90% of the stuff they were protesting literally wasn't real.

Obviously there is a fine line between legitimate, legal protest and it should be taken very seriously. IMO that particular protest pushed that line too hard.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by adamiscool8 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:11PM (#40839347)
The stuff they were protesting was very real, and those measures specifically caused disruption to hundreds of thousands of people's lives and sleep for months on end. The government turning to wartime measures so that privileged Ottawans living in some of the most affluent areas around the nation's capital can withstand a few honks for a few weeks is absolutely preposterous.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by sbarre on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:16PM (#40839408)
Lol do you actually live in Ottawa?

Calling downtown near the Parliament buildings "the most affluent areas around the nation's capital" is pretty hilarious.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by nick_ on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:33PM (#40839582)
You can tell when people have absolutely no idea what they're talking about when they think downtown cores are where rich people live.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by 1over137 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:45PM (#40840230)
Outside the USA, including Canada, downtown cores are where (many, but not all) rich people live.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by sbarre on Sunday June 30, 2024 @08:01PM (#40841456)
Yes please tell me more about where I live and you don't.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by nick_ on Sunday June 30, 2024 @06:06PM (#40840770)
I live in Toronto and have been to Ottawa many times, as well as tons of other Canadian and American cities. Downtown cores have some middle class folks in them, usually in somewhat luxurious condo buildings. But in no way does the interpretation of "where all the rich Canadians live" being downtown Ottawa make any sense.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by adamiscool8 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:21PM (#40839453)
Is it no longer the most expensive part of downtown? Obviously there are rich suburbs.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by sbarre on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:28PM (#40839526)
It has never been the expensive part.

The Glebe, Sandy Hill, Rockliffe, Island Park, etc.. All those parts of Ottawa's core have always been more afluent than the downtown by the Parliament.

The rise of new condos in that area has probably improved it somewhat in the last 10 years but it's still far from "afluent".

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by adamiscool8 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:46PM (#40839723)
Point stands regardless, but it is relatively affluent to it's surroundings here: https://neighbourhoodequity.ca/economic-maps/
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by nick_ on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:19PM (#40840039)
The point absolutely does not stand. You've retreated to "relative affluence". For your point to stand, it would also have to be a given that the acceptability of noise pollution correlates with how rich the population is. That doesn't stand either.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by sbarre on Sunday June 30, 2024 @08:56PM (#40841675)
Lol what? Point stands regardless? What does that mean?

- "Oh my point was proven wrong but I'm going to stick to it anyways? Because fact shmacts?"

Your whole argument was that the convoy was shut down because it inconvenienced the wealthy locals.. Which is completely not what happened.

It's ok to say you were wrong.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by adamiscool8 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @09:43PM (#40841897)
It means you can strike "some of the most" from my comment and the point remains unrebutted.

>The stuff they were protesting was very real, and those measures specifically caused disruption to hundreds of thousands of people's lives and sleep for months on end. The government turning to wartime measures so that privileged Ottawans living in ~~~~ ~~ ~~~ ~~~~ affluent areas around the nation's capital can withstand a few honks for a few weeks is absolutely preposterous.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by nick_ on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:34PM (#40839590)
Did the government force people to take vaccines?
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by adamiscool8 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:42PM (#40839682)
>Dennis: Think about it. She’s out in the middle of nowhere with some dude she barely knows. She looks around her, what does she see? Nothing but open ocean. “Oh, there’s nowhere for me to run, what am I gonna do, say no?”

>Mac: Okay…that seems really dark though.

>Dennis: No, no, it’s not dark. You’re misunderstanding me, bro.

>Mac: I think I am.

>Dennis: Yeah, you are. ‘Cause if the girl said no, then the answer obviously is no. The thing is that she’s not gonna say no, she’d never say no…because of the implication.

>Mac: Now, you said that word “implication” a couple of times. What implication?

>Dennis: The implication that things might go wrong for her if she refuses to sleep with me. Now, not that things are gonna go wrong for her, but she’s thinking that they will.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by nick_ on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:46PM (#40839724)
So no, they didn't.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by adamiscool8 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:57PM (#40839820)
Sure, and at first the Canadian government didn't force indigenous children into residential schools - it just withheld resources and services and used a monopoly on violence to make resistance untenable. Believing that's acceptable behaviour from your government, is certainly... a position.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by nick_ on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:11PM (#40839962)
Equating cultural genocide to a public health measure is insane.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by adamiscool8 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:21PM (#40840065)
Respectfully, it is insane to not recognize the discrete similarities listed, and moreover, how many genocides have their roots in purported "public health measures".
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by nick_ on Sunday June 30, 2024 @06:11PM (#40840802)
I feel you are exemplifying the typical conspiratorial thinking patterns. You might as well have asked me to concede based on the fact that there are technically similarities between vaccine mandates and the Yellow Badge. I mean you must be insane not to recognize how they're basically the same thing, right? /s
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by throw0101b on Sunday June 30, 2024 @05:15PM (#40840445)
> The government turning to wartime measures […]

The Emergencies Act has nothing to do with war:

* §3 For the purposes of this Act, a* national emergency is an urgent and critical situation of a temporary nature that (a) seriously endangers the lives, health or safety of Canadians and is of such proportions or nature as to exceed the capacity or authority of a province to deal with it, or, (b) seriously threatens the ability of the Government of Canada to preserve the sovereignty, security and territorial integrity of Canada, and that cannot be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada.

* https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/e-4.5/page-1.html

Was the "health or safety of Canadians" at risk? Did it "exceed the capacity or authority of a province" (Ontario under Ford)?

The Act mandates an inquiry be called after any invocation, and the inquiry in question found that the use of the Act was justified:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Emergency_Commiss...

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by adamiscool8 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @07:04PM (#40841136)
>The Emergencies Act has nothing to do with war

War is the obvious example that meets 3(a) and 3(b), because the Emergencies Act replaced the War Measures Act, which was designed to give the government wide latitude for authoritarian actions desired in wartime.

>The Act mandates an inquiry be called after any invocation, and the inquiry in question found that the use of the Act was justified:

The inquiry in question (led by a longstanding party member) found reluctantly:

* I do not come to this conclusion easily, as I do not consider the factual basis for it to be overwhelming. Reasonable and informed people could reach a different conclusion than the one I have arrived at. [1]

In part, because the definition you cited is not the entry point for the federal proclamation, which is actually at s.16 of the act:

* §16 In this Part, declaration of a public order emergency means a proclamation issued pursuant to subsection 17(1); public order emergency means an emergency that arises from threats to the security of Canada and that is so serious as to be a national emergency; threats to the security of Canada has the meaning assigned by section 2 of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) Act.

Even though the Canadian government was told by CSIS at the time:

* Canada's intelligence agency didn't believe the self-styled Freedom Convoy constituted a threat to national security according to the definition in its enabling law [2]

And comparatively, the last time this level of power was invoked domestically it was in response to separatist terrorism culminating in the murder of a government official. [3]

>Was the "health or safety of Canadians" at risk? Did it "exceed the capacity or authority of a province" (Ontario under Ford)?

The criteria is not just "at risk" but "seriously endangered". The commission's report, in my opinion, takes a tortured approach to justifying the meeting of this threshold.

[1] https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/public-order-emergenc...

[2] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/convoy-protest-emergencies-...

[3] https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/october-cr...

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by sys_64738 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @07:08PM (#40841164)
This is the very essence of what real protesting is. It's meant to inconvenience people and be in their face. What do you think the word protest even means?
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by lupusreal on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:51PM (#40839186)
Honking is literally terrorism, haven't you heard? When lefties protest they're allowed to make huge mess but when right wingers make some noise (literally) that's a heckin war crime.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by sbarre on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:14PM (#40839383)
Can you cite an example of where Canadian protests by "lefties" took over a major public road for weeks on end, and disrupted the lives of thousands of citizens, harassing them, depriving them of sleep, preventing their ability to get to/from their homes and businesses?

I can tell you're already very convinced of who was right and wrong in this and you're trying to make this a left vs right thing, but there are limits to how many problems you can cause when you protest - no matter the cause - before civil society (via it's police force and/or government) says "ok, that's enough".

Either that, or civil society sides with you, and then major change happens.

And I guess no one wanted to side with the COVID-denying racists.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by belorn on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:14PM (#40839993)
> before civil society (via it's police force and/or government) says "ok, that's enough".

Can you elaborate why it is "and/or government". Why is it acceptable that the government by-pass the normal legal system in dealing with protestors?

To be fair, I do come from a Swedish perspective. Historically we had a fairly painful event in 1931 when the government did that and sent the military to do the job of the police in order to break a protest. The outcome was the death of several protestors, and some major political consensus to never again use military against protestors. In 2001 there was again a major protests, and just for the fact that some politicians started to suggest the use of military force, laws was drafted and put in place to explicitly forbid the government from ever using military force against protestors. If protestors break the law, you send the police to catch and jail them. If there isn't enough police, you get more.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by sbarre on Sunday June 30, 2024 @09:05PM (#40841708)
> Why is it acceptable that the government by-pass the normal legal system in dealing with protestors?

I'm not going to debate whether it was legal or not with you because (I'm assuming) neither of us are lawyers.

I'll say that I don't particularly agree with the bank account shenanigans they pulled, but they only did that because the Ottawa police force completely failed to do their job in dealing with the blockade.

I definitely don't like the precedent that was set, but having seen the blockade first hand (it was not a "peaceful protest", it was an aggressive encampment that was regularly threatening to passerbys and locals) and the impact it had on the area - my parents live nearby - they had to do something.

I support the rights of citizens to protest but as I said, there's a limit.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by belorn on Monday July 01, 2024 @09:12AM (#40845553)
The legality of the event is know. It was illegal, as deemed by a court of law.

The question I was after is if the concept is ever moral or reasonable to deal with protestors with methods outside the legal system. Common methods are the military, but also martial law, suspending bank accounts (without a court decision), and other methods.

Current in Sweden we had recent several demonstrations that lead to riots, and historically we had major ones including one that lead to several demonstrators getting shot. Every single time, researchers and government investigations has found that using anything other than the regular legal system is counter productive, and in some cases very deadly. If the police don't do their job you get more police from other regions. In a event just a few months ago, they even got police from nearby countries to help (despite massive demonstrations and influx of tourists, crime went significant down during that period).

In general, the problem of police not doing their job seems to stem from when they are afraid. Either because of being extremely outnumbered, or in combination with poor instruction (with can lead to being afraid of doing mistakes in a political hot situation). Both are problems that can be solved by politicians without going outside the framework of the legal system.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by JacobThreeThree on Sunday June 30, 2024 @05:55PM (#40840701)
Here's one where the protesters blockaded rail lines for months causing layoffs and many millions in lost revenue.

Why didn't the government shut down these protestors bank accounts?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/via-rail-layoffs-1.5468617

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by sbarre on Sunday June 30, 2024 @09:14PM (#40841756)
Not really "lefties" here, but this is a reasonable example...

I will say that First Nations issues in Canada are pretty complicated, particularly when it comes to unceded territories and the rights around those.

It's also worth mentioning that those rail line blockades in Ontario were done in support of other protests in BC where the government eventually sent cops in riot gear to dismantle the blockades by violence.

Something that didn't happen in Ottawa, and I'll let you figure out why.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by JacobThreeThree on Sunday June 30, 2024 @10:02PM (#40841978)
>the government eventually sent cops in riot gear to dismantle the blockades by violence.

The Ottawa police did the exact same thing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/19/world/canada/canada-truck...

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by Dig1t on Sunday June 30, 2024 @06:22PM (#40840860)
"COVID-denying racists."

Have you seen videos or pictures of the protestors? They were all different races, there wasn't an ounce of "racism" anywhere in there.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by sbarre on Sunday June 30, 2024 @08:13PM (#40841495)
My friend, my parents live right near where this happened.. I had to go help them many times.

I don't need to see "videos or pictures" I saw it with my own eyes, many times.

I saw first hand the confederate flags, the screamed slurs at passerbys, the aggressive racist-coded chants and associated violent rhetoric..

One night my mom got screamed at by a drunken asshole waving a big confederate flag, she was shaking so badly she didn't sleep that night..

So your hearsay "there wasn't an ounce of racism anywhere in there" can take a hike.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:19PM (#40839430)
Sleep deprivation is torture under the Geneva Convention. It's rightfully considered a war crime.

You don't get to do that to other people. Not in my idea of a civil society.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by gruez on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:57PM (#40839813)
Get a grip. Honking is honking. Comparing it to "war crimes" like killing civilians makes little sense and is disingenuous[1].

[1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/yCWPkLi8wJvewPbEp/the-noncen...

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:48PM (#40840248)
Translation: "I don't live anywhere near the affected area, so I didn't experience it. If I had, I could have just left town for a while and waited for the whole thing to blow over. I don't see the problem."
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by gruez on Sunday June 30, 2024 @05:00PM (#40840329)
It's possible to be against the protesters and/or think that they're unacceptably annoying, without trying to compare your plight to innocent civilians who were killed/raped by enemy soldiers.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @05:35PM (#40840574)
Exactly. There's a force continuum at play.

Truckers take over the city and make life a living hell for thousands of innocent residents? Lock their bank accounts and starve them out, and (ideally) prosecute the perpetrators alongside anyone who donated to them.

Soldiers raping and killing civilians? Blow them to kingdom come if possible (it's a war, after all). Otherwise, identify them, convene a tribunal after the war, and hang those found guilty.

FA, FO.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by s1artibartfast on Sunday June 30, 2024 @05:41PM (#40840609)
Still hugely disproportionate.

If someone is non-violent protesting in a location they arent allowed to be, the appropriate response it to arrest and move them, not lock their bank accounts and starve their families.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @06:39PM (#40840983)
Deliberate sleep deprivation is torture. It isn't "non-violent protest." This isn't a matter of opinion.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by s1artibartfast on Sunday June 30, 2024 @06:48PM (#40841050)
nonsense.

Locking someone in a cell and keeping them awake for the purpose if inflicting suffering is torture. Making noise so that someone in the freedom of their own home has to put ear plugs in is not.

conflating them ignores the clear differences and stretches the meaning of the word. You might as well say an ice cream display in the super market is torture.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @09:37PM (#40841869)
Again, translation: "Like the other guy said, this didn't affect me or my loved ones. Even if it had, I have the resources to deal with it. So, meh."
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by s1artibartfast on Sunday June 30, 2024 @09:53PM (#40841936)
no, the translation is that something can be bad, but not everything bad is literal torture.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by dang on Monday July 01, 2024 @08:51PM (#40852497)
Please don't break the HN guidelines like this, and please don't perpetuate flamewars. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

(Yes, the other commenter was also breaking the site guidelines and I've responded to them elsewhere.)

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by dang on Monday July 01, 2024 @08:51PM (#40852496)
Please don't break the HN guidelines like this, and please don't perpetuate flamewars like this. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

(Yes, the other commenter was also breaking the site guidelines and I've responded to them elsewhere.)

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by lupusreal on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:43PM (#40839687)
If they had been honking to protest the RCMP murdering natives, you would not be making this inane war crime claim.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by christkv on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:53PM (#40840284)
I guess people living on Manhattan get tortured a lot between the fire truck horns and the police sirens.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by nick_ on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:59PM (#40839266)
Sorry are you trying to imply that the way various levels of US governments responded to recent left-wing protests has some conspiratorial parallel to the way the Canadian federal government responded to a right wing protest?

The city of Ottawa's law enforcement officers were ordered to remove the protesters weeks before the federal government stepped in. The cops basically just didn't do their job. The emergency act was not invoked lightly.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by lupusreal on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:03PM (#40839293)
Who said anything about the US government? Left wing protestors get plenty of leeway in Canada but right wing protestors get branded terrorists for being loud. Oh but it "wasn't done lightly", whatever that's meant to mean, so obviously it's kosher.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by squigz on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:38PM (#40839626)
To what "leftist' protests are you referring, exactly?
[dead]
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by dang on Monday July 01, 2024 @08:39PM (#40852426)
Posting like this will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong another commenter is or you feel they are, so please don't do it on HN.

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

The other commenter was breaking the site guidelines too, but in a different way, and I've responded to them also.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by freeone3000 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:40PM (#40840199)
Perhaps the emergency act should have been invoked against the police.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by dang on Monday July 01, 2024 @08:38PM (#40852424)
Can you please not post in the flamewar and/or ideological battle style to HN? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Note this one:

"Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

and this one:

"Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity."

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by s1artibartfast on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:22PM (#40840066)
Peacefully protesting can be criminal. The two are not mutually exclusive.

The right to protest and speech does not include a right to break the law.

The fundamental problem with the Canadian bank response is that it was not proportional, broke convention, and did not fit the crime.

If someone is trespassing, you arrest and remove them.

Government have incredible power they can wield, but convention is that they do not use it to force compliance in every circumstance.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by dang on Monday July 01, 2024 @08:47PM (#40852470)
We detached this wretched flamewar from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40838754 and marked it off topic.

You not only started it, you appear to have done the most to perpetuate it. That's seriously not ok. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40852451.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by olalonde on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:04PM (#40838801)
They just need to remove regulations. The reason there's a duopoly is that it's nearly impossible for a startup today to start a similar payment network.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by stanleydrew on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:57PM (#40839814)
This completely ignores the power of network effects. Even if all regulation were removed tomorrow I doubt the market would accommodate new entrants.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by gaganyaan on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:10PM (#40838835)
What regulations, specifically?
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by olalonde on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:12PM (#40838851)
AML/KYC mostly.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by ryandrake on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:32PM (#40839025)
Smaller companies are more than able to comply with AML/KYC.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by agtech_andy on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:03PM (#40839296)
Yes. They just have to pay a few thousand per month to places that do it as a service.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by olalonde on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:40PM (#40839107)
Complying is easy, doing it economically is another thing.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by viknesh on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:01PM (#40839281)
Sounds like a great opportunity for a startup to fix!

In the country I live, there is a standard AML/KYC service that allows customers (banks, utilities) to easily perform ID verification in a few minutes.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by threeseed on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:21PM (#40839451)
No. We shouldn't make it easer for criminals to conduct terrorism, human trafficking, fraud etc just to make it slightly more economical for startups to compete with Visa/Mastercard.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by akira2501 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:27PM (#40839517)
When was the credit network used to finance terrorism? If we can't prevent terrorism then isn't it an advantage to have them move their funds on a network that can be completely traced and retroactively inspected? We'd prefer if terrorists use cash? Or we believe that if they can't use Amex it's impossible to use cash and therefore terrorism is defeated?

Also, when the startups compete with Visa/Mastercard, they provide that service to small businesses. So really, it's to make it massively more economical and easy for humans to start businesses that take credit.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by blindriver on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:12PM (#40839979)
Gofundme. This was very common early on. People would create campaigns and then it would get funded by stolen credit cards and withdrawn.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by rootusrootus on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:31PM (#40839557)
> isn't it an advantage to have them move their funds on a network that can be completely traced and retroactively inspected?

Isn't that advantage precisely because of AML/KYC requirements on the networks?

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by threeseed on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:38PM (#40839632)
> We'd prefer if terrorists use cash

Yes. It is a million times easier to catch criminals trying to physically launder large volumes of cash than it is to track money flowing through multiple companies (on/off-shore, crypto, different owners, different jurisdictions etc).

Why do you think AML/KYC is such a priority ?

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by akira2501 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:47PM (#40839733)
> It is a million times easier to catch criminals trying to physically launder large volumes of cash

Which is odd because all the arrests and cases I see published all catch the money laundering activity because it reached the banking system, not because an alert officer spotted large volumes of physical cash.

> Why do you think AML/KYC is such a priority ?

I honestly don't know. I can't see any evidence which suggested it needed to be made a priority generally. It looks like most of this fraud involves real estate.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by shrimp_emoji on Sunday June 30, 2024 @07:13PM (#40841185)
To rephrase: we should make it harder for everyone to do stuff because of the tiny minority criminals we want law enforcement to catch (and whose job we need to make easier by way of crime-preempting hacks in every system criminals might use because otherwise it would be too difficult for law enforcement to do their job).
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by threeseed on Sunday June 30, 2024 @07:33PM (#40841322)
Yes. That's how society works.

If the priority was to make life as easy as possible for everyone then we wouldn't have laws at all.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by olalonde on Sunday June 30, 2024 @10:13PM (#40842015)
As if AML/KYC actually prevented anything...
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by AnotherGoodName on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:22PM (#40839464)
It’s actually super easy to do but the public will hate it. Pass a law that credit card surcharges MUST be added onto the final price.

That 2% cashback you get for using your Amex isn’t due to Amex generosity. That’s literally what retailers pay.

Right now I will absolutely use my cc for anything I can. It’s literally cheaper than cash and users of cash subsidise all my purchases. The only way to fix this is to force the surcharges on the cc users so cash users aren’t subsidising the price. But good luck getting that passed as law. Everyone either doesn’t care or thinks they are getting an amazing deal from the 2% back. It’s got to the point where stores that add a cc surcharge will be called out on social media when all they are doing is preventing cash from subsidising credit cards.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by rootusrootus on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:29PM (#40839538)
That seems like it would get complicated fast. Doesn't cash have its own additional handling costs that don't apply to credit card users? I'm not sure it's as easy as saying cash users are subsidizing anyone else.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by BJones12 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:30PM (#40840132)
For businesses to deposit cash at RBC (the largest Canadian bank) here's an account that charges $2.50 per $1,000 (branch), $2.25 per $1,000 (ATM)

https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/business/accounts/flex-choice-b...

Which is ~0.25%. Presumably a cash register also has some amortization on it.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by Teever on Sunday June 30, 2024 @05:04PM (#40840361)
That sounds like something that could be regulated away if the government felt like it.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by nazcan on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:43PM (#40840220)
That does not include the cost of staff processing it.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by miki123211 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @05:03PM (#40840358)
And the cost of staff pocketing some of it, and the cost times risk of it being stolen, and the psychological impact to employees of the store being worth robbing...
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by felixg3 on Sunday June 30, 2024 @05:32PM (#40840558)
You forgot cash pickup and delivery costs for big stores or sending two employees to the bank with the day’s revenue (that’s the cost a lot of cash-only merchants in Germany usually don’t calculate for). Also don’t forget the counting of the day’s cash, two employees 30 minutes each.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by robocat on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:39PM (#40839648)
edited: ignore this comment please, I totally misunderstood the comment!

> Pass a law that credit card surcharges MUST be added onto the final price.

You must be a rich person that supports monopolies! And clearly you know nothing about low margin retail businesses. If your profit margin is 5% and the credit card fees are 2.5% then you are saying profit should be split 50%/50% with Visa/Mastercard.

In New Zealand originally the contract between the credit card company and the marchandiser said that the marchandiser couldn't charge a different amount for cash - an indirect way to force retailers to soak up the credit card fees. That clause was eventually outlawed here, for good reason. Your suggestion is to write the opposite law!

The extra fees for credit cards are great. It is the customer's choice to pay them or not!

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by AnotherGoodName on Sunday June 30, 2024 @03:48PM (#40839739)
That’s exactly what I’m proposing though. Right now it’s cheaper to pay by credit card because I don’t pay the surcharge directly, it’s paid by all customers including cash customers. I have no choice but to pay by credit card. My proposal above is exactly what is required to make cash a choice.

Btw did you read some idea that the surcharge applies to all purchases? The idea of charging the credit cards a surcharge equal to the surcharge they take from the retailer is better for all except the big credit card companies. Customers can use cash without subsidising the credit card users, credit card users can still use credit cards but they won't get ahead vs cash, retailers don't have to absorb the surchage (and ultimately partially pass it on to cash customers).

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by brainwad on Monday July 01, 2024 @01:43AM (#40842883)
Nope, in Australia this is now the law and it hasn't stopped the CC duopoly at all. In fact it seemed to benefit it, as small merchants who used to not accept cards for small payments now just don't care since they pass the fees on to the customer. It turns out that most people just don't care about a 1% surcharge.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by BarryMilo on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:23PM (#40838935)
Break? It's practically enshrined in the law, seeing as any given bank can only have one credit card affiliated with it. So if I'm e.g. a normal National Bank client, I get to have a Visa card or no card at all.

I suppose online banks could change things a bit, but without that, introducing a new credit card provider is practically impossible.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by throw0101b on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:43PM (#40839126)
> […] seeing as any given bank can only have one credit card affiliated with it.

CIBC has both Visa and MasterCard:

* https://www.cibc.com/en/personal-banking/credit-cards/costco...

As does RBC:

* https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/credit-cards/travel/rbc-avion-v...

* https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/credit-cards/travel/westjet-rbc...

BMO:

* https://www.bmo.com/main/personal/credit-cards/bmo-cashback-...

* https://www.bmo.com/en-ca/main/personal/credit-cards/bmo-ecl...

Not sure where you got the idea, as simply visiting the websites would have show otherwise.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by radicality on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:33PM (#40839037)
> any given bank can only have one credit card affiliated with it.

Is that true? Is that an actual law, or some anticompetitive terms&conditions from Visa and Mastercard? If anything feels like the law should ban this kind of anti competitive behavior.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by err4nt on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:38PM (#40839087)
It doesn't appear to be true if you check websites of Canadian banks (e.g. CIBC, RBC, BMO, Scotia…) they all offer Visa and Mastercard, and Scotia even also offers Amex as well.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by sudosysgen on Sunday June 30, 2024 @02:38PM (#40839088)
I don't think that's true. My bank (in Canada) offers both Visa and Mastercard, and I have both.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by rexfarwell on Sunday June 30, 2024 @04:32PM (#40840141)
The MOU of the protestors was to overthrow the government. Seems like an appropriate response.

https://archive.org/details/convoymou2022/page/3/mode/2up

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by s1artibartfast on Sunday June 30, 2024 @05:11PM (#40840420)
The MOU was no more an overthrow than people proposing any policy.

IF protesters request the government set up a community oversight board for the police or build a playground, that wouldn't not be overthrow either.

I have seen the MOU linked several times, but nobody has ever made a coherent argument how it constitutes treason, overthrow, or anything else of that nature.

It is a simple list of demands from protesters, primarily that the government drop vaccine mandates and vaccine passports.

Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by rexfarwell on Monday July 01, 2024 @09:56AM (#40845893)
The protestors wanted the "Federal Government" to enforce their versions of laws in the MOU or they were to resign, and were prepared to take over by force if the MOU was not signed or their demands were not met. They wanted to have their own January 6 moment, but in Canada this time.
Re:Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer adv... by s1artibartfast on Monday July 01, 2024 @11:42AM (#40846894)
None of that is supported by the document you linked.

It is just a list of demands. Is it a insurrection any time a protester makes a demand?