Agree awful!
The Finns fought on the "bad" side as well, due to the Soviet Union having tried to invade them already two years previously. Ukraine had likewise tried to get independence in 1917 which led to a 4 year civil war which they unfortunately lost.
> The phrase was popularised during the Ukrainian War of Independence (from 1917 to 1921).
This is a lie
The very Wikipedia you linked
> Bandera remains a highly controversial figure in Ukraine.
And once Azov got integrated into the army it shed its neonazi members.
This is how propaganda works: take a kernel of truth and spin a whole tapestry of lies out of it
People are not cardboard cutouts. We do not boycott Ford cards because Henry Ford was a nazi sympathizer. We can condemn that and yet recognize him as an industralist who changed society.
This is a lie
The very Wikipedia you linked
> Bandera remains a highly controversial figure in Ukraine."
A) it is not a contradiction, something can be controversial but still have broad support
B) "Bandera's favorability appeared to shoot up rapidly, with 74% of Ukrainians viewing him favorably according to an April 2022 poll from a Ukrainian research organization."
No matter how controversial Bandera’s ties to nazis were, I am almost certain that his recent rise in popularity is motivated primarily by the pro-ukrainian national identity part and not the pro-nazi part. Enemy of my enemy can be a useful ally at the moment, and all.
Bandera remains a highly controversial figure in Ukraine.[9] Many Ukrainians hail him as a role model hero,[10][11] or as a martyred liberation fighter,[12] while other Ukrainians, particularly in the south and east, condemn him as a fascist,[13] or Nazi collaborator,[10] whose followers, called Banderites, were responsible for massacres of Polish and Jewish civilians during World War II.[14][15] On 22 January 2010, Viktor Yushchenko, the then president of Ukraine, awarded Bandera the posthumous title of Hero of Ukraine, which was widely condemned. The award was subsequently annulled in 2011 given that Stepan Bandera was never a Ukrainian citizen.[16] Bandera gained further prominence following Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2022.[17][18][19]
"Bandera's favorability appeared to shoot up rapidly, with 74% of Ukrainians viewing him favorably according to an April 2022 poll from a Ukrainian research organization."
It is an argument in bad faith to cite him as a marker of support for 'neo-nazism' in Ukraine, doubly so during time when adversary is coming and is very open about stripping you of your national identity, language and history.
And about Asow - what I can say for certain is, that we have some very hardcore Neonazis here in town - and they are literally friends and strongly connected with the Azow people - that's kind of all I have to know about them. But I do know more - and it is not good. Those guys aren't fighting for democracy.
Regarding Azov, I am native Russian speaker with many friends from Ukraine, there are legitimately orgs/groups that you can call out for being open nazis, but if all you can do is comment on Azov in 2023 then you are simply delusional or misled by Russian propaganda, I'm sorry.
I was comparing the line of argument.
"but if all you can do is comment on Azov in 2023"
And I can and did a bit more, but there is probably no point in further debating it.
This is extremely misleading (and I personally would argue wrong, but I assume good faith on your side) given that Ukrainian support for neo nazism is comparable to countries in western Europe, while russia who attack them is has a lot more neo-nazis, both in absolute numbers but also by percentage.
As for the Azov regiment, here is what wikipedia writes (emphasis mine):
> and allegedly continuing association with far-right groups and neo-Nazi ideology,
Anyone who has followed the war in Ukraine can tell you that Jews and other minorities are heavily represented in modern Azov, including high profile members, which makes accusations about Azov being nazies somewhat ridiculous.
Again, I assume good faith on your side, but please be careful so you don't spread Russian "Z" narratives. It is incredibly damaging.
Not any more than US or Russia itself
Azov on the other hand is not a "Nazi regiment", it's had troubling beginnings but it was cleared up as it was brought into army ranks.
EDIT: misread the question, in US there aren't 'regiments', but denying the fact that army is rife with supremacists is plain silly.
[Any] Army by itself is a magnet for these sorts of folks, and it takes active effort to weed them out, not something that a country at war can easily afford.
It isn't, and never was.
There were a few people there who flirted with neo nazism back in 2014. They were rooted out swiftly. There is a reason why every time you ask Russians for proof that Azov is Nazi they show the same old and / or manipulated photos.
Today Azov has representatives of most minorities in Ukraine, including "ethnic Russians" and Jews.
Meanwhile, one of the founders of Task Force Rusisch said something along this in an interview (IIRC and I don't speak Russian natively):
> Let's not mince words, I am not a "nationalist", I am a nazi.
It's a good reminder for everybody outside Ukraine that the war isn't just the news or the maps from the mil-vloggers; it's also lots of people who are homeless because their house has been bombed or demolished, their town occupied, and their lives disrupted in a myriad of ways.
I really hope we can start rebuilding soon.
Those business also makes me to think that the next one is not going to be better. Anyway, the hope should never lost, life is full of twists and turns.
PS: I don't have Russian friends so my opinion is just based on what I see externally.
And perhaps naive of us to assume that the war in Ukraine is a product only of this one man and his ideas and/or party. Unfortunately Russia seems unusually united in this "operation."
EDIT: don't usually complain about downvotes, but WTH people, what did I say that's controversial? Seems some people think this is somehow pro-Russian? It's not.
Sorry, I incorrectly read your statement as blaming "both sides" - I assume I might have been not the only one.
I completely agree. Slava Ukraini!
> I completely agree. Slava Ukraini!
Do you see the contradiction? ;-)
That said, leadership does matter. These kinds of ideas find support in Russian society when they are put front and center, but without someone to actively do that, people just grumble about "them not respecting us as they used to" etc.
At the same time, Putin does not represent the most radical manifestation of this ideology, either. Someone like e.g. Strelkov could truly go all in on "gathering the lands", as Russian historiography usually describes re-occupation.
This is my concern. I'm no expert on Russia, but I can see this from a distance, and it's scary. A way of talking about the world that sounds so 19th century, but seems to be making a comeback.
(FWIW I think American imperialism as we saw in Iraq is terrible as well, and I condemn both.)
For normal citizens it means to risk own death. The people who think this way would rather leave the country.
For oligarchs and elites, yes only putting complete economic lockdown could work. No way to travel and buy yourself or your kids comfy western way of life.
Unfortunately sanctions are lax. Eg. Putin's wife lives in EU just fine I think. The people hurt mainly are regular citizens, I have a buddy who cannot open a bank acc in EU because of some evil namesake on top. Whereas oligarchs are fine, if you have money the banks are open to you worldwide. And even if sanctions were stricter crypto laundering now undermines all of them. Quite depressing this all
I don't think that can work. Russian elites absolutely value power over Western way of life. Sanctions are only needed to starve Russian economy to a point where it cannot finance war - and it has been a mixed success so far, but in principle can work.
some elites maybe, but their kids will only be after a couple of generations. It's one thing if you yourself cannot spend time in London but if your kids and relatives also cannot leave and buy a new iphone suddenly you have people to answer to.
Those later generations are currently reaching prime age and they are leading comfortable shock-free life that just reinforces their understanding of how there can be no consequences for association with Putler.
It's clear that they are immune while if you are a regular person not associated with government and elites you are hurt by war and sanctions. So what do regular people do? Try to be associated with government and elites as best they can. How? By supporting whatever the government does.
I think you underestimate how simply a desire to have nice life and signal high status can change political outcomes
How do you define mixed success? It has been a more spectacular failure than the Ukranian summer counter offensive
Russia is a giant patchwork of colonies being held together by strongmen and the "ethnic Russians" more or less drain and extract the resources of every minority and send the money all to themselves in Moscow and St Petersburg.
This isn't about ethnicity, this is about strongmen in Moscow draining the country to fuel the ambitions and comfort of muscovites.
Promise to get paid 2000$ per month is enough motivation to go to the other country thousands of kilometers away from their home and kill everyone there and probably die.
Sounds like the United States of America. Or Canada. Or Australia.
"drain and extract the resources of every minority"
Native Americans and Australian Aborigines can't agree more.
How do you see alternative options?
I don't see "okay guys, let's wrap it up" as a thing invaders will accept. It will also mean "you will never return home" or "your family is under occupational regime right now, good luck" for a lot of locals, and that's unlikely this option will be accepted by them.
I think some context may help. Russian government media clearly wrote that Ukrainians should be eradicated as the idea with language forbidden (they say it's "Russian spoiled by Polish" and civilians "suffering the hardships of occupation for the support of nazi regime (with further clarification that everyone is a supporter)". I'm not paraphrasing or exaggerating. I'm almost quoting.
So it's not like they plan to stop on "already captured territories". It would be more of a delay before the next round, like the past few years long ceasefire before 2022. This way the question gets reduced to "at what rate do you want to see your country being dismantled?".
> EU should really put more cash on table to help UA.
More high-tech weaponry like rockets, drones and other stuff will lead to lesser Ukrainian casualties with bigger territorial gains, so that's a better option compared to the current state of things.
Large scale wars usually go on until one of the sides can't continue anymore. Ukrainian government don't have plans to stop anytime soon and surrender may shatter the rest of the country in multiple ways, effectively ending somewhat normal functioning for years or decades to come. Also, military draft goes on and enlisted soldiers will go to battle. So it would be nice and wise to give them some technological advantage.
> People talk lightly about the lives of others when its not theirs on the line
Also, people talk lightly about giving up territory when it's not the territory with their homes on the line.
They would not stop undermining the independence of Ukraine, and would in fact be emboldened to do more. There would be no "peace", there'd be hybrid warfare incursions constantly, they'd start crowing about Russian language rights even more, and use it as a justification for meddling probably at an even more intense level than before. Every election would be undermined, people assassinated, bought off, manipulated.
They have spent the last 10 years selling their population on the line that Ukrainians were doing some sort of genocide on the population in the Donbas -- so just imagine if Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts were split in two, as they are now?
Official Russian ideology is Russo-supremacist, with an Orthodox Christian nationalist veneer. This is not the USSR era, with its "brotherhood of peoples" propaganda. Its right wing nationalist, and imperialist on that basis, and has shown itself willing to attempt to enforce this.
Eventually they'd either get their way and turn Ukraine back into a client state, or invade again.
Russia needs to be pushed back, its defense lines broken and its trade relationships properly severed, its energy exports denied access to the west until a substantial foreign policy shift is made by its leadership.
Oh, and removed from the UN security council or the security council just abolished.
Russia is still attacking, still trying to conquer more land. It's going incredibly slowly and at tremendous cost in Russian lives, but with less resources for the defender, it wouldn't go away; it would go faster.
The only way to end this is to make clear to Russia that they cannot win this. And for that, Ukraine needs a lot more support.
If you think that after retreat from Ukraine Russian will use nukes - you are consuming too much Russian propaganda.
Not to mention Russian civilians are downwind from Ukraine anyways. Radiation fallout would poison the entire region.
Even the use of a "tactical" nuke or chemical weapons would be a red line that NATO would treat as an escalation that would end with the complete elimination of Russian defensive lines from the air and the end of Russian air supremacy in eastern Ukraine, and I'm sure Biden has communicated this very clearly to Putin behind the scenes.
Russia is treading a strategically thin line. Unless Trump gets back in the Whitehouse.
And funny to see you put "freedom of speech" in quotes, while you post in a completely public forum without sanction. Shoot your mouth off wrong in Russia and you'll end up in a jail cell. It sounds more like your problem is that you expect people to just ... agree with you? But the problem is you're wrong.
Behind Ukraine is a giant contiguous geographic area of allies with supplies and armaments superior to Russia's, and an economic & industrial capacity many multiples of it. What is required, is will from leadership and a population that doesn't fall for Russian propaganda, like you have.
Your privilege is showing -- or are you just used to being agreed with and getting your way?
As for the cost -- the expense is human lives and untold misery. Which is the unacceptable cost of every war. Which is why bullies use it as a tool, in hopes that their foe will submit because the cost is unbearable.
It's brutally unpalatable and inhumane to continue with war. But the alternative is worse.
BTW last week Putin made it clear that no "peace" at the current borders will be permitted and that their original goals remain, which is (at a minimum) the merge into Russia of all the Kharkiv, Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, and Kherson oblasts, the elimination of the gov't in Ukraine (and presumably its replacement with a puppet regime), and no EU membership and certainly no NATO protection.
So basically 1/2 the territory of Ukraine, including its most productive agricultural and industrial lands, the bulk of its Black Sea coastline, and it become a client state.
That's peace?
Last few years they receive some ammo, but just enough to not loose the battle. And sanctions are a joke. Russians are easily selling goods to EU, money easily flowing to Russia. There are backdoors for each sanctions.
Don't see how it is in EU interest? If Russia will occupy Ukraine then they could invade EU states next. Estonia for example. There are already threats coming from Russian state TV. They are ready for war. And they don't care who to invade and kill: Nazi in Ukraine, Nazi in Estonia, Nazi in Poland etc. Call any nation a Nazi and there will be legions of Russian soldiers who are ready to kill everyone (including children and elderly people, they will rape, torture and kill everyone) for promise to get paid few thousand euros per months.
If Russia attacks the EU or NATO, then we’ll need our weapons to fight them. I think there is ZERO chance that they do that. As NATO is just simply more powerful and Russia is not stupid. It would be called the 3rd WW.
Doesn't sound "all the ammo in the world" for me.
Yes, they received a lot of close range defensive weapons, but almost nothing offensive.
Regarding invasion to one country in NATO - why not? Other armies are extremely weak, with ammo depots for few weeks of active operation. And everybody are terrified to do any offensive because "crazy Russians have nukes and we need their oil and natural gas"
Likely if the west provided jets, this would change drastically.
I actually agree Russia is not stupid enough to engage in a direct attack on a NATO nation. They would likely move next against in Transnistria, Georgia, etc. And I don't see what would stop them, if they have success in Ukraine.
But they will engage in hybrid warfare against the west (already were), and they will be twice as emboldened if they are given Ukraine.
This is a country that felt free to unleash radioactive poisons against persons on UK soil, shoot down a civilian airliner, etc. Why do you want to appease them?
There are airports, ammo depots and other facilities less than 100 km from Ukrainian cities, and Russians are safe(mostly) there.
While at the same time Russians every day continuing their terrorist attacks on Ukrainian cities.
Russia is a terrorist state, but world doesn't care if they can have profits from Russia.
But after this summer of letting the Ukrainians flounder along the front in a stalemated counteroffensive, I am frustrated. The F16s should have been there this summer.
And now Avdiivka will become this winter's Bakhmut and the US could very well end up with a Putin-allied Trumpler in the Whitehouse next year.
Unfortunately for Ukraine, there is no powerful politician like Reagan nowadays.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.
We had decades of peace and prosperity and now hard times are coming.
If you think that west should give up and let Russians win and keep occupied territories - you should learn European history better.
Remember "peace for out time" agreement with Hitler in Munich 1938?
Every time you hand something to aggressors you need to hand them more the next time.
How many km between russia and the border of the country where you live?
For me it's 0.
You either help Ukraine now or be ready to fight yourself sometime in the future.
It's like in the winter you are cold and you pee in your pants. It will be warm for a moment end then what?
The mistake the west made was not having confidence in the Ukrainians early on, and not supplying them with the tools early on and into last winter. We let Russia pull back and build intensive defensive lines that would be impossible to breach without air support.
As for nuclear weapons... they are not tools to win wars.
The first country to use a nuclear weapon as an offensive weapon will be turned to glass. It's just not a tool that even Putin is stupid enough to use.
They don't make you a powerful offensive power, just a powerful defensive one. And nobody has ever suggested invading Russia, despite their paranoid claims to the contrary.
Not only that, you publicly advocate for not helping Ukraine and condemning tens of millions of people to horrors is russian oppression.
So you are doing kremlins work exactly as they wish for.
You seem to understand that should we not help Ukraine then they will not stop. They still have nukes to keep scaring you.
What is your strategy?
That sounds like you want to decide for Ukraine whether it should fight on or not. That's not your place to decide.
And if you're from Europe, you should know from history that appeasement does not actually bring you "peace in our time".
> I regret to inform the community that since my house was destroyed by russians who invaded my country, Wasm3 will enter a minimal maintenance phase. At this time, I am unable to continue the development of new features. However, I am committed to keeping the project alive and will actively review and merge incoming Pull Requests. I deeply appreciate your understanding and support during this difficult period. Your contributions to Wasm3 are now more valuable than ever.
The linked tweet (edit: from September 2022) shows a video of the destroyed house and invites people who want to help to donate.