You are absolutely correct here, but the primary problem with this is that a combination of sexual harassment statutes, #metoo movements, and generalized "women don't ever want to be approached" zeitgeist has closed this avenue off.
This avenue is generally still available if you follow the two rules, but if you do not, it's over for you.
Church is probably the only exception to this, but with drastically increasing secularization of society, good luck with that.
It’s okay to ask, but learn to take a hint.
My communities are very valuable to me which makes such an endeavor high stakes.
So I thread lightly.
It (the extreme of what you're writing about) exists only on the internet.
Just turn off twitter and you'll realize those things do not exist at the scale that you think
Respectful advances in places where both people are on equal footing and there are not external pressures, have never been seen as off limits as far as I am aware.
Twitter aside, there is a general post COVID feeling of "coldness" out there in my anecdotal experience. It's kinda always been that way given me being in a big city (or at least, within driving distance of one), but even small talk seems to have diminished these days. Forget women, people in general just seem less interested to wave hello unless you're at a very specific function.
The upside of all that is that most men don't usually take it personally. Like, I can throw out a text to someone I haven't seen since college in another state and we chat like old times (you know, minus the 5 years of catching up). So it's not like they ignore people on purpose. I guess life is just busy.
I have no clue how to meet truly NEW freinds though. Meetups are so flaky and a lot of my tech/gaming circle is probably inside anyway. At best I met some closely connected friends that were ex-coworkers I never talked to.
All my male friends are either from college or work, and like you said they tend to forget you if you don’t follow up.
If anything, the blow up is massively an improvement at least we do not have to pretend it does not exists.
Wait, what? This reads like the classic boomer complaint that is hard to get to know women when you can't slap their ass in the office any more. "No one can take a joke any more, etc etc"
Women are not a monolithic voting bloc. Some will respond to approaches that repel or bore others. The only way to know is to get to know them as people first and potential romantic partners second. This is why a social scene, or in sone cultures, extended clan gatherings, is so important: you see someone in a relaxed setting and can make some assessment of their personality and values. This also means that it takes time. I don't want to say that a should all go back to the weird heteronormative 1950s, but using as many social networks as possible, including unusual ones, is essential.
As an older dude who has seen the games that young men play at work, I understand that the hormonal drive for guys is absolutely saturating, but you will fail and fail again if you think that #metoo stops you. If it did, you were misbehaving to start with.
No, it's the extremism that's a problem. Men went towards TheRedPill and similar idiots. And especially the younger millennial women and younger have seen this garbage for what it is.
However the pendulum swings to compensate. I've heard recently from quite a few places the old radical quote from 2nd wave "sex is always rape because of patriarchal power imbalance".
I've also slapped precisely 0 butts in the workplace. Nor have I said the usual shitty "women do _" things. But the problem is so many younger generations's women are overly on guard.
Hell, I've had them (at work) ask "don't I look good?", seeking attention. I flatly said that I don't make comments on appearance of men or women.
If I wasn't already with someone, I'd likely be with nobody. It's too toxic out there as a man or someone who presents as a man.
How did you end up getting with someone in that case?
Neither of us were looking for relationships, or sex, or whatever. We've never done any dating apps.
We met literally in the Starbucks line. Conversation started up, we both had time and sat down for coffee. It just went from there. We've been together for 10y.
Would it happen like that or similar again to either of us? Nope. Nor is it repeatable.
If you read up on the Richard Stallman #metoo cancelation attempt I'd really like to know how you thought he was misbehaving because from my perspective it was simply used to jeer at and bully somebody vulnerable.
I think it's pretty rational to think that could happen to somebody else.
This indirectly led to him being accused of being a sexual predator but it doesnt mean he actually is one.
The attacks on his character and the noisy tantrum Google had over AGPL a few years ago (e.g. even banning it from their own version of github for a while) are manifestations of the same desire to see him and his movement nullified.
A watered down FSF run by an inoffensive do-nothing would be a better outcome for big tech than leaving him in charge. Hence the all the attempts to cancel him, including via cynically hijacking #metoo.
Yes, that was my entire point. The movement didn't only mean that more Weinsteins got what they deserved. It also lowered the bar of what is considered "creepy" and raised the risks of behavior which is perceived as such.
A society that isn't built on reciprocation is not a society worthy of my respect.
Quite the contrary. I don't want to misbehave or be construed as misbehaving so I never tried anything at all. You see the most negative examples so of course you won't see the ones who don't want any risks at their workplace and put their head down.
Even on HN you will see a lot of people who hate conversing with coworkers and simply want to clock in and clock out, with no interest in making friends. And I feel that's a minor factor that leads to such behavior.
However, when the (alleged) "victim's" interpretation of something is given as much weight as it is in these laws (and it is--anyone who's had a corporate sexual harassment training course knows this), it greatly increases the risk of even more mundane interactions being reported as harassment. Even if the real rate of reports is tiny (or even unchanged from an era prior to the existence and refinement of these laws), the perception of risk still matters.
Dating apps prefilter for "acceptable to indicate interest to" and let you avoid an ambiguous landscape that's impossible to perfectly navigate.
If you talk to women like they're human beings instead of bizarre creatures that you need to manipulate into mating, this doesn't actually happen.
There's no meaningful difference here, particularly if you're a grad student. But I guess you'll now say that undergrads are allowed to ask somebody twice, but grad students must not ask more than once? Or maybe you'll just insult me and tell me to be miserable quietly like other people in this discussion already have.
There is a certain level of professional conduct that people expect in a professional setting that’s not there in school.
Also, I would be very wary of approaching someone at the gym who was working out. I use to teach at gyms part time when I was single. Women would have to really start the conversation with me before I would make any move.
In person also allows for demonstrating qualities that aren't apparent in a profile. People's vibes are often very different in person vs. online. A man approaching a woman irl signals courage and confidence in itself if done non-awkwardly, so that also gives a guy a leg up over a bunch of dating profiles that are unknown quantities.
Disclaimer: married for 9 years so this is all theoretical
Tinder promised to help me with the numbers game, then built their entire business on scarcity.
Compare that to 50 per day out of a pretty poor pool and stiff competition and your odds are not looking great.
They are also other signs that hint towards compatibility such as wealth, class, education, social anxiety you get a feel for it over time. I would trust that over what you see in a profile. Not that you can’t lie on those just that it’s much harder. Plus The dark things people tell you after a drink or 2 would often be enough to get one cancelled off the internet.
Also keep in mind that a lot of people screened themselves out just by not going out. All those gals that don’t have anything money, live with their parents and go to bed at 9 or have no friends. You won’t find them at the bar but on tinder you might
The ideal situation is an honest dating selection system. Only if/when it is honest, good combinations for dating emerge. There you have it: dating happens in irl.
I can speak from experience that such systems exist(ed) in electronic form.
Unless we are talking about extreme introverts, I don't think there is a setting where meeting in person is worse, than writing emails/chatting.
Dance hall: you can see how the other person dances and moves in real (and you don't have to be drunk, if you don't want to). How she talks, with whom she talks and how. And yes, how she smells, how she talks, how she acts. And if sparks seem to fly both ways, then you can also go outside for a bit to see if it was more than just the ecstasy of the moment. All of this way more direct unfiltered and unmodified information than an online exchange.
"The ideal situation is an honest dating selection system."
And traditionally this used to be the village dance. Today it is in general mixed, but if you like online dating, then I don't want to talk it out of you. Just that in my experience lots of online romances I witnessed with other persons, turned out to be mostly vaporware, not working in real life.
I think meeting people in shared-activity groups is the best bet. You already know your interests align and you enjoy the same things. My old triathlon club would have like 6 weddings every year. Turns out getting to know people over 80-mile bike rides is a great way to learn about someone.
Of course I still do it for general friends purposes (when you live alone and wfh as a man, you NEED to make an effort to get out just to get out of your own head), but Idk how effective advice this is for someone who wants to meet someone in a timely matter. Not everyone wants to play the long game.
Also helps build strength for when you climb those 300m comms masts or enduring those crazy G turns flipping lines in low level geophysical aircraft surveying.
Of all things I tried shared activities worked the best, Tinder the worst.
The actual meaning of the advice is to find a physical activity you can tolerate in order to find a mate who isn't fat. It is a way to make their completely reasonable and relatable position on fat people seem like something noble. "My mate and I enjoy hiking. It is our shared interest." The reason I know what I'm saying is true is because every time this discussion comes up, people peddle the shared interest bullshit and inevitably bring up 'physical activity.' And sorry for getting a hair up my ass about it, I just find it crazy when people can't just say what they mean: If you are an average man who prefers a woman with a nice body and you dislike or are unsuccessful on dating apps, try going to a group activity that will filter out fat chicks. The end. Nothing pretending this is anything but another attempt at finding a mate.
Physical activity filters for people who actually care about themselves. If you can't be bothered to look after your body, then you're likely not going to be any good at looking after your relationship, your family, raising children etc.
Of course I also know plenty of guys who cheat on their wife as she gets older and less hot (the classic “he gets older but all his dates are the same age”), and theres a danger for thin women who are filtered for their physical traits like this.
I didn't meet my wife until I joined a language meetup. I met lots of friends through this group and after 5 years, I started dating my wife and we have now been married for almost 9 years.
The meetup is gone, but I'm still friends with the core members of the group (we are all married now. I think there are 5 couples that met their spouses from the group) and we meet on a monthly basis.
Shared-activity groups are the best thing outside of college because you are more likely to meet someone compatible due to your interests.
Plus, I have the feeling that asking out women is considered increasingly rude.
> Developing crushes on people you actually know in your social scenes is more reasonable.
This is certainly an option for people in their 20s, or maybe in very mixed professions with a lot of interactions, but not an option for a lot of us who don't have a rich social life. Plus a lot of people refrain dating people at work.
I still feel dating apps are the best option, even though they don't work for me anymore since I'm past 40.
You're providing yet more examples of low-effort interaction, albeit offline.
Plus, asking out strangers is lots of fun. The uncertainty that comes from stepping outside scripted social interactions creates tension. And tension what sexual attraction is made of, if you can remain calm and have fun with it.
And while it doesn't have the highest chance of success, when it lands it creates this feeling of stars crossing. Two strangers make eye contact and are immediately drawn to each other? Who doesn't want that 'how'd you two meet' story?
My point is, if that is the primary way we meet partners, it leaves those with anxiety, and introverts, etc, tragically excluded.
I’m grateful I happened to find my partner before the era of high-effort dating sites dissolved and was replaced with Tinder (etc.) We actually write stuff about ourselves. I bet nobody would swipe the correct direction just based on my face.
And if it is not mutual, admitting it can be a total social suicide.
I agree that admitting it can be social suicide. But I think that's true only if it is the person's only social group; and it is approached either ham-handedly or if the group in question is relatively petty or immature.
I think it being mutual is the bigger danger. A group is more likely to survive a false start intact than a breakup. If it doesn't work out, people don't even really choose sides. They already know who is going to stay and who is going to go.
It's difficult to practice something where failure means disaster.
You can flirt with a large variety of people and the social consequences are pretty low. Thinking about how people respond to it is also free. If it's rejection you fear, say hi to strangers. Some of them will ignore you (or maybe even be bothered). That's rejection. It feels like rejection. But the stakes are so low it's safe and you'll become inoculated to a degree or at least comfortable with it. If you want to get better at asking people out, either roleplay with a friend or ask people out that you find interesting, even (especially) if you don't have a crush on them. Bonus: You might get practice at dating, or just find someone you really like.
I have tons of female friends in social groups whom I've asked out. Some had boyfriends or even husbands and we all had a good laugh about it afterwards.
Where it gets messy is when people start hanging out one on one with members of the opposite sex, calling it "friendship", and then confessing feelings.
A more introverted person can't find people to meet at a club or a bar because they don't want to go to a club or a bar. That's who they are.
Gay people can go to gay bars but even those are rife with straight people now, and usually filled with the "scene" type gays that someone might not be into as well.
As an introverted gay nerd you can meet people organically in person but it's a considerably more difficult.
But it’s human nature that the vast majority of the time it will be one-sided on the guy’s part. So you’ve got to somehow maintain a social scene with enough single women to make even one match plausible for you, while those women are constantly inundated with unwanted attention and feelings from the guys in the group, without the group either splintering or developing social norms that prohibit romantic overtures. That’s asking for some incredibly robust social technology in an era where we should be grateful that any kind of IRL social scene even exists.