Going a layer deeper, Americans really, really love to abuse the shit out of customer service workers. To put it extremely charitably, we're used to being fucked by corpos so we pre-emptively fuck them back in the dumbest way possible. Less charitably, our country has a bunch of bullies that want to shout at anything they can bully. I don't think they'd actually pull the trigger, but, y'know, law of large numbers, times small but non-zero probability of homicide by virtue a gun being present on the scene equals probably at least one murdered cable tech.
[0] https://pluralistic.net/2020/05/28/holographic-nano-layer-ca...
That wasn't my experience when I worked in customer service for a few years. Maybe 10% of people were like that and it was always because they were tired of not getting solutions to their problems, and that was always because their account fell into a bad spot in the customer service flow policy (suspicious activity, low LTV, fraud, etc.). It was really hard to take any of that personally.
I'd argue it's more like the corporate powers that be often have unforgiving policies and account review practices sending people to the moon with anger.
I think I see where the problem is on the corporate side.
Sucks to be in customer support. The job really seems to be a buffer between abusive company policies and the angry customers.
Indeed. When companies abuse their customers, customer service is not only the only way by which a problem can even hope to be resolved, but it is the job of customer service to do so. They are representatives of their companies, the interface between the customer and the service their company offers.
Now, I don't sanction abuse, of course, and pulling guns on people is insane, but that's not what you have in mind here, and knowing how tortured and stretched the definition of "abuse" some people have is, I will say you do sometimes need to be somewhat aggressive and push to escalate your problem to get the customer service rep. to transition on their script's finite state machine to a helpful state and outcome. In those cases, don't blame the customer. Blame the corporation.
Corporations often like to drag their feet to maximize profit with all sorts of ridiculous and unsavory tactics. It's like being automatically enrolled in something by default and burdening the customer with unsubscribing; on average you can steal at least a little money from those who don't unsubscribe, or do so only after a couple months have passed. The time and burden of doing so (a form of theft), and the lack of genuine consent (Pacta sunt servanda, buddy!), doesn't seem to be accounted for.
That's 1-2 a day minimum!
Yikes on linking to the wrong article that totally invalidates your argument.
The people who are pointing loaded guns at their crotches are mocking people who take the four rules of gun handling very seriously, including both Fudds and most "normal" gun owners. They're trolls that exist almost exclusively online. They don't make up anywhere near half of gun owners and they're unwelcome at pretty much any gun club or public range.
Of course they don't, because they're not journalism, they're activism. They don't report - they incite.
Thank you for taking the time to actually provide useful information.
The source you cited specifically says it is not to own the libs.
I take it you have not actually visited the United States.
That’s a shocking number of gun related incidents in the GP. Seems like accessing TV/internet must be an issue like road rage that brings out the absolute worst in people. People don’t go around popping shots at technicians or waving their weapons around in the US.
Maybe there's some selection bias: You'll tend to meet angry people, who are more dumb (couldn't fix the problem themselves?)?
Maybe in any weapon loving place, a job where you visit lots of people at their homes and help fixing something that's broken, is mildly dangerous?
However I suspect the repo company allows its employees (or they’re self-employed) to carry in retaliation - I strongly suspect that the cable companies don’t allow their repairmen to pack heat.
It’s like the thin bread line - pizza delivery is more dangerous than being a cop.
I doubt it. That'd be a huge liability.
Remember that repo companies are often incredibly small single-person "companies" contracted out.
I think that's highly dependent on where in the US, and what kind of neighborhoods and people these technicians are working in.
The idea that such places exist in the US does not surprise me in the least. But at the same time, there are certainly places in the US where the majority of gun owners do handle their firearms responsibly.
My brother is an avid gun "advocate" (nut), but he still wasn't happy being threatened with guns from yokels who don't like paying bills.
And those people are often irresponsible in many other ways, too.
So there are plenty of people who call themselves "responsible gun owners" but turn a complete blind eye to bad behavior.
Or they will keep a loaded gun in their bedroom for home defense, something that is outright NOT responsible gun owner behavior, yet is the primary cited reason people own guns in the US.
Why? Well bad apples and stuff, it's hard to believe perfect discipline is maintained when some of those around you have less than perfect discipline.
It seems like a question that one could probably get pretty close to answering (although not perfect).
"Everyone"?
This is significantly biasing your perspective, and I don’t think you quite realize by how much.
There are many, many gun owners who are incompetent and irresponsible. There is an entire spectrum, and it’s not a purely bimodal distribution with 95% safety-conscious owners and 5% hoodlums.
well ok, I don't know but there are stats on how many adults have guns, and there are stats on misuses of guns. I suppose a clever statistician would be able to get to some potential overview of how many people who own guns have decent discipline?
Not saying that's you but someone on this site. It is difficult to find anything with a query on Google nowadays, but the things I do find - like https://time.com/6183881/gun-ownership-risks-at-home/ implies to me that the amount of the population that maintains your level of discipline is very low.
So many people provide direct evidence that they do not respect the danger or power of firearms, and most gun owners just look the other way.
The EU has 30% more people
There are 60 times as many privately owned guns in the EU as there are in Montana.
There are 5 time as ma y guns in the US, but 20 times as many murders.
There is a cultural problem in the US with firearms.
I think the cultural problem is everyone wants to be like Stallone or Arnie, which would suggest the US population has an inferiority complex towards the old world.
Even gun suicides are far higher in the US per capita and per gun than in the EU.
The US has a gun fetish. People sleep with them for crying out loud!
But everyone still claims they are "A responsible gun owner" because all that actually means to the gun culture in the US is that you are white or rural or conservative.
> There are 5 time as many guns in the US, but 20 times as many murders.
gonna need a fact-check on these claims, please, because initial googling reveals these are, at the very least, false or misleading
I live in the Northeast US and very few people have guns here.
Incidentally, even if it is difficult to purchase a gun, it's trivial to order a crossbow or airbow, which has just as much 1-shot stopping power (although, of course, after that 1 shot, reload can be a problem, less so with the airbow)
https://www.euronews.com/2019/08/05/which-european-country-b...
> Around 46% of all 857 million guns in civilian hands around the world belonged to people living in the United States in 2017, a survey has found.
> The European Union's 513 million inhabitants owned a collective 79.8 million firearms in 2017.
And the “20 times as many murders” is not right, but seems to be pretty close if they were just taking about firearms homicides.
https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/insights-blog/acting-....
> Age-adjusted firearm homicide rates in the US are 13 times greater than they are in France, and 22 times greater than in the European Union as a whole.
I also live in the Northeast, but that’s a point against when talking about this stuff; when you live in the only reasonably run part of the US, it is easy to misunderstand how ridiculous things are in much of the country.
I actually don’t care to argue back. I object to the argument-less fact check request and insinuation that the figures are misleading, on principle. It is annoying to give your conversation partners homework for no reason.
You are not representative, as only one-third of individuals, and 42% of US households, own a firearm:
* https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/the-dem...
* https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own...
Gun owners are in the minority of the population.
And you might not even know; not everyone tells everyone that they own a gun.
Firearms owners may well still be in the minority, but there's probably a fair bit of error there.
I'm sure everyone says they take these things seriously, and I'm sure you're a fine upstanding citizen who mostly interacts with other fine, upstanding citizens. However, we do know, due to the number of offenses made public thanks to Florida's Sunshine law and other public sources, that we simply can't make the generalization that people take these gun safety measures seriously.
What matters is what happens when their friend does something dangerous with a gun, and they don't seem to care. My entire family is "responsible gun owner" including my brother who definitely seems to care about safety, but all that goes out the window when another family member brings out the guns at a family BBQ while absolutely drunk. You can bet your ass nobody said anything. If you aren't willing to narc on irresponsible gun behavior, you ARE NOT a responsible gun owner.
Also, Kyle Rittenhouse took a gun across several state lines, possibly stirred up shit, got shot at, and killed the person doing so. While the actual event of shooting was ruled "self defense", how is it "responsible" to take your firearm to a protest with the intent of being a counter protester. If "Anti fa" did such a thing, these people would riot, but Rittenhouse was invited to talk at fucking CPAC.
That's the kind of person these people lionize. They are envious that he was able to kill someone with a gun and get away with it. They want to be him.
If you want to know the average gun owner in the US, go to a rural family's BBQ
Even if you include full time criminals and suicides, that still means basically 0.001% of fire arms are used to kill someone every day year.
Most gun owners are decent people that want to protect themselves, not use it to cause hard to the innocent.
If nobody had guns, you wouldn't need to a gun to protect yourself from someone else with a gun.
The problem of course is that the genie is already out of the bottle. We can't take the guns away, they're all over the place in the USA already. Even if the Second Amendment was repealed, all that would happen is that only criminals would have guns.
We're fucked and there's no solution.
This is objectively false. You're attempting to portray a personal opinion as fact. Bad form, and definitely not appropriate for HN. Please don't do that here.
[edit: Just to clarify, I think there's an equally strong argument to be made about freedom of movement as a societal benefit, and an individual right, that outweighs the harms caused by humans driving their own cars.]
These days this is not done with bullets but with carefully planned public manipulation through media and social networks.
And if it really comes down to bullets, the government owns a lot bigger guns than you do.
They don't tend to use direct force either, but there are private militias...defending yourself from a gang or haywire corp is also an important thing.
People like to take the big argument, defense from govt, and tear it down from a broad level, and then ignore the many other lethal threats posed. There have been a couple shootings in recent memory, where citizens quickly resolved the matter far faster than law enforcement could have hoped.
Situations too, where men armed with axes etc. went on killing sprees in other countries and mostly people were unable to respond.
I don't think everyone should bear arms, or even that it should be common, but I do think the right to defend yourself is a pretty inalieable right. If gun ownership can help with that, then by all means...
In other words, as the state declines to protect you, you have a better claim on the natural right to protect yourself.
Just wondering if you have any evidence to back up this assertion.
Telling people crime isn't happening or that they're just imagining it's going unprosecuted is a form of gaslighting. I'm again mass incarceration, but I think prosecutorial discretion is a sneaky/bullshit way of going about decarcerating and fixing the justice system, and I think it's going to lead to a dangerous backlash. So is lying to people who can see reality with their own eyes.
Please.
Just link a study or something. FWIW I think it's wild I'm being accused of gaslighting over a simple request. Isn't that DARVO?
The assertion for which you asked evidence is not a correlation between prosecutorial policy ("fully prosecuting criminals") and crime rates, but rather the existence of the policies themselves. So, there's no need for a "study": the prosecutors put it down in writing (and those policies then get reported by the media).
For the record, I support some of these prosecutorial reform efforts, but through legislation which eliminates things like "add-on charges", not by prosecutors selectively deciding who will and won't get them.
But, since you asked, here's just a few -- and I'll make the "simple request" to you to do the "hard work" of a web-search if you want more than these: try Chesa Boudin, Larry Krasner, etc.
Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg announces he is directing his staff either not to prosecute, accept "community diversion" in lieu of prosecution, or at least not to seek any jail time, for a slew of offenses, including e.g. armed robbery:
https://www.manhattanda.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Day-O...
Media coverage of same:
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/06/us/alvin-bragg-manhattan-dist...
https://nypost.com/2022/01/04/manhattan-da-alvin-bragg-to-st...
LA district attorney George Gascón, upon being elected, issued a memo modifying the policy to reduce the charging of violent criminals:
https://da.lacounty.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/SPECIAL-DIRE...
Media coverage of same:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/crimes-las-prosecute
And while anecdotal, here's evidence of the implementation of that policy, a letter from Union Pacific railroad to the DA's office, complaining that when their agents apprehend criminals robbing trains, they are not fully prosecuted:
https://www.up.com/cs/groups/public/@uprr/@newsinfo/document...
HN thread on same:
It sounds like you and I are actually quite close in belief that systemic reforms are necessary but that undertaking them by prosecutorial fiat is a mistake. You'd probably appreciate this analysis:
https://harvardlawreview.org/print/vol-132/the-paradox-of-pr...
It's ironic that some of the most vociferously anti-gun people in the US are also the ones with the clearest view of the police as an armed gang. But absent armed police and without the right to protect themselves, what do they think will fill the vacuum?
Trust makes the society safe. When there is a lack of trust, careful security measures can be used to compensate. But security can also lead to an arms race that makes everyone less safe, as measures that improve someone's safety may have a negative effect on others.
The stoic natural rights theory on which the US is founded definitely tips the balance towards self-defense over the collective. It’s the second sentence of the Declaration of Independence.
The historical evidence shows that countering a police state / authoritative government with violence/force is less effect than with non-violence:
* https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/44096650
Since 1900, if a movement used violence in their methods for change they had a success rate of 25%; movements with non-violence had success 40% of the time. Further, most movements who did use violence to have a 'change of government' were much more likely to end up with authoritative government.
How does owning a firearm protect you from state violence without an implied threat to shoot police?
I don’t get the obsession behind open carry though. What good is people walking around in shopping malls with large semi automatic rifles on their back?
This is a phenomenon I've head described as "nutpicking." Take the absolute worst of a demographic and then go "why are you all like THAT?"
Claiming US gun culture is all about going to the mall open-carrying a semiauto rifle is on the same level as claiming gay men all prance around in assless chaps and leather. No, they don't, and it shouldn't be any mystery why claiming that is so offends people.
And I believe this is the experience of the overwhelming majority of gun owners in the US.
It occurs to me I haven't seen any estimates for how many people open carry on a daily basis. (You would think SOMEONE would collect that data SOMEWHERE.)
The states are sort of (in)famous for how many people own firearms, but I assert the number of people who open carry on a daily (or weekly) basis is much smaller than the number of people who own firearms.
I'm going to stop short of accusing nojvek of nutpicking, but encourage them to look around. The stats I've seen are that one in three Americans owns a firearm. If you were walking around and one out of three people were open carrying... well... I think that would be a little unusual unless you were in a gun show or at a shooting range.
Gun-culture in America can be weird, but it's often portrayed as being weirder than it actually is.
[Edit: also. how did we go from cable modems to guns so quickly?]
I was kind of freaked out but everyone else operated as if it was normal.
I found that pretty jarring. Was only there for a few days but almost everyday I saw someone with a gun on them on the streets.
Yes my sample size is low, but it’s still a strong memory in my mind.
More to the point, none of the few nutjobs who insist on doing this has ever actually carried out a mass shooting. At least not to my knowledge. Generally, if you find yourself around someone who's carrying openly, you can be sure you're less likely to be shot than you would be just walking around a random mall by yourself.
Firearms can, in many situations, allow you to enforce your will over that of other people who may be intent on harming you or others.
The thing I never quite understood is why so many of us believe they'll encounter those situations walking to train station in the urban core.
So in one sense, I think I can understand the thinking behind it but at the same time think people are mistaken for how often you'll need to shoot someone while walking home in the city or in the burbs.
That being said... I worked part time as an agent for a bail bondsman to pay for college and frequently carried large sums of cash with me through bad neighborhoods. I open carried with the approval of the sheriff's office and municipal police departments largely as a reminder that I could shoot back. But I never had to. The last person a potential criminal wants to shoot at is their bail bondsman... I never drew, aimed or fired my firearm in two years of working that job. In many ways I think it was like part of a "costume" that communicated I had the weight of social convention on my side.
You also lump in a disproportionate amount of street gang-related shootings, which have different causes and different solutions, and make it look like suburban teens are uniquely at risk from firearms . . . when they're not. The vast majority of firearm homicides in this country are suicides, and the next-most involve street gangs and the drug trade, and involve young men with criminal records killing other young men with criminal records using illegally-obtained pistols.
Like others have said, you've got a lot of other things in the US to worry about than guns. However, since we're sharing gun incidents, mine is that I had a sheriff's deputy LARPing as a SWAT officer bust in to the bathroom at work and point a rifle at me while I was trying to use the urinal. Lots of yelling until they realized that I was not a part of the drill and had my pants unzipped. Not happy that they didn't inform us that the cops were going to use the building we're in for school shooting training. Dangers of working in a repurposed school I guess?
Well, in US so many times heavily armed police act like chump in face of serious criminals so not sure that general populace are proud of professionalism.
Meanwhile plenty of them are in right wing militias.
About ten years ago, i was buying weed from a cop (i got the hookup through his highschool friend). He bragged that every one of the ten or so AR15s on the wall in his bedroom over his gravity bong and below the bullet holes was registered to a different person. Why he thought that might have interested or impressed me is something I still try to puzzle out on late nights.
Interestingly, same city for both events.
Because a Glock doesn't have a safety lever. It's built into the trigger mechanism.
What, so pressing the trigger automatically disengages the safety? As a non-gun-person that seems like an insane design decision.
Correct. There's a few other internal safeties to help ensure it doesn't go off unless someone is pulling the trigger and (hopefully) intending to fire.
It's still drop safe and not going to go off by itself, but if you fire it (and there's a round in the chamber), it's going off.
>As a non-gun-person that seems like an insane design decision
There's certainly tradeoffs. It's simpler and you're not going to accidentally forget to disengage a safety at the worst possible time (when you actually need to be using a gun), but it does increase the risk when improperly handling the firearm which is a risk not everyone is cool with for obvious reasons (and even experienced operators (incl. Law Enforcement being generous, which largely carry Glocks) are human and can make mistakes).
That's much better than the opposite problem: forgetting to engage the safety and accidentally discharging.
> it does increase the risk when improperly handling the firearm
I just feel like having to toggle a switch before killing a man is the least you can do to avoid accidents.
If you're following the firearm safety rules you're not pointed at anything/anybody you don't wish to destroy so it's a moot point. (yourself included, though at least in that case nobody else was harmed needlessly)
A safety lockout (or lacktherof) shouldn't be a factor in your pointing of a gun at someone and pulling the trigger.
>I just feel like having to toggle a switch before killing a man is the least you can do to avoid accidents.
It's extremely rare for someone who isn't being extremely negligent to be in a position where they could "accidently" kill someone.
Could a safety prevent such an occurrence? It's very well possible and that might be a reason to prefer a firearm with sufficient safeties that increases your comfort.
On the other hand some people decided that they're cautious enough and by in large most people avoid accidents and practice good safety practices to avoid harm should one happen.
There's trade offs either way, but ultimately it's preference.
Relying on a safety to keep it “safe” is usually the first step in ventilation of the floor or ceiling.
Play-guns for the shooting range? Sure, add fifty safeties if you want.
But guns are used for other purposes, and there is a failure mode where the person holding the weapon intended to fire and end someone's life and the gun fails to do so because the safety was still engaged.
Many things are purposely designed "fail-safe" but some things are designed to "fail deadly" for very good reasons.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the negligent discharges that can be categorized as "I thought the safety was on and was pulling the trigger like a moron" is much higher than "I knew the gun only had a grip/trigger safety and was pulling the trigger like a moron".
ok, so the group "most people using firearms" and the group "most people using websites" do not significantly overlap is what I'm hearing?
https://crimefictionbook.com/2016/02/04/do-glocks-have-safet...
But (as I learned only recently) there are guns around with actually no "proper" safety and one model at least is particularly prone to fire accidentally:
https://www.thetrace.org/2023/04/sig-sauer-p320-upgrade-safe...
A lot of the issues in general seem to come about around holstering which is one of the situations where you're most likely to be "breaking" the rules pointing towards yourself, certainly not ideal.
Reholstering is one of the stronger objective arguments for a safety, but that still assumes the safeties themselves are properly designed.
Glocks have a system that is systems called "safe action" where there is a system of internal locks that prevents the weapon from firing in situations where the gun is dropped, hit by a car, struck from the side, &c -- this is not really what most people are thinking of when they think of a safety. It turns out to be very important in practice, though. If a police car gets hit by another car and the guns go off that's going to be a bad day for everyone.
It does seem like the right balance hasn't been found yet.
This sort of thing is unfortunately somewhat common:
https://www.thetrace.org/2023/04/sig-sauer-p320-upgrade-safe...
One of the golden rules of gun safety is to not point a gun at something you do not intend to kill (the rule usually uses "destroy" because gun culture loves playing down the danger of guns) so if this is actually an issue then responsible gun owners are not as common as they should be.
For the most part, the development of striker fired pistols and duty holsters was driven by police and military use; these are contexts where a person draws a pistol several times a day (on some days) and hundreds or thousands of times a year. General process safety concerns -- like reducing the number of "safe" states that people have to think about -- do matter in that context.
"Loaded straight into fairly skinny jeans without checking the safety." -- Glocks do not have safeties.
The idea with most newer striker-fired pistols, like the Glock, is that the gun goes in a hard-sided (molded nylon or kydex) holster. If it's not in the holster, it's ready to fire. If that is not safe in the situation you are in, put it back in the holster.
Rifles, shotguns, &c, are never holstered; so if it is time to fire the weapon, you deactivate the safety; otherwise, it is left on safe. Because pistols have the extra step of being holstered, it turns out be work well in practice not to have the intermediate unholstered-but-safe step.
Handguns are registered to a tiny degree. The NICS checks records may be kept only on paper, and are kept by the gun dealer until they close business. Then the BATFE or a related govt. office gets them. By order of congress, this office is not allowed to computerize.
A registry connects a particular gun -- a particular serial number -- to a particular person. A NICS check doesn't do that -- it's a criminal background check. Just because you have a NICS check, it doesn't mean you bought any particular gun. You could pass the background check and then decide you don't want the gun after all.
You may be referring to a Form 4473 -- the DRoS (Dealer Record of Sale) -- which does record which person received which gun (with serial number) -- and all licensed dealers maintain these records, for all guns they sell (not just handguns). These records form a sort of a search tree, since the manufacturer records which wholesaler the serial number went to the, the wholesaler records the retailer and the retailer records the end user. These records are useful in regulating the traffic in arms; but the decentralized nature of them means that the government can not go on fishing expeditions -- can not just go out and query the database and see what looks interesting today.
Here's how the DRoS are used in regulating the arms trade. Say police come across a big box of guns from Colt. They can go to Colt with a suitable warrant and say, hey, where did these go to? And then go to the wholesaler, on down the tree. It turns out this information is often sufficient to localize shady gun dealers who are trying to sell to the mob, the cartels, &c.
However, some states have banned private transfers of handguns or of all guns. This means, in practice, that people must perform the transfer through licensed dealers.
It is illegal in the United States to be in the firearms business without a license. It is legal for private people to transfer firearms to one another without filling out a 4473. So on the one hand, we have the business of selling guns and filling out 4473s and maintaining records according to the ATF's rules, and the majority of transfers of guns take place according to these rules; and on the other, we have people who give a gun to their son or daughter as a birthday present, or sell a few guns they no longer use. In the middle, we have a grey area -- people who sell a few guns every year, &c. Occasionally, people in the grey area get caught; and it's not a good place to be in; so people who occasionally sell guns but have no interest in being in the firearms business will actually transfer through a licensed dealer (the seller transfers to the dealer, who then transfers to the buyer, charging a nominal fee). For example, when people sell guns on GunBroker.com, they almost always intermediate the transaction through a licensed dealer.
This is what people are talking about when they say "universal background checks" and "the gun show loophole". Now, "the gun show loophole" seems like a completely ridiculous idea. I do not see how progressives can believe it exists; and I do not see how this could possibly occur with any frequency. The ATF knows where the gun shows are. Maybe progressives think the ATF is not going to the gun shows looking for people selling guns without a license? I don't think anyone who knows anything about selling guns believes for one moment that the best place to sell guns illegally is a place, like a gun show, that is literally crawling with cops from agencies at all levels of government (not only to keep an eye on things but also as customers).
Though one of the gripes with NICS is as far as I know it does not fail safe, if a local LE or reporting agency ignores the request or does not process it in a timely manner, the person may get a false pass.
Regarding NICS, it is supposed to instant -- National Instant Check System -- and it is generally quite fast. The issue is not with an agency ignoring the request but rather with agencies not forwarding the data they are supposed to forward. If it's not in the database when the check is run, the check comes back clean -- most NICS checks complete in a few minutes.
If for some reason a NICS check does not complete in two or three days or something like that, yes, it defaults to open and the person gets their gun. That is how it should be. There must never be a possibility for the government to prevent the trade in arms, either for particular people or for the whole country, simply by delaying things without explanation. Process delays are one of many tools governments abuse. If the data is not in the database, another 2 days is probably not going to get it there. Something has to be done about the agencies that don't forward their data, yes; but opening up an avenue for sideways stuff on the part of the government is not the solution.
In the United States, it is illegal to transfer a firearm to a felon (and probably to all other categories of person who would be denied by NICS) -- this is another reason, one I didn't mention, that most sales brokered by GunBroker go through a licensed dealer. A licensed dealer has access to NICS. A regular person doesn't. If they do a private party transfer and, lo and behold, the person they transfer to is a felon, they are in big trouble. They would rather not be in trouble so they delegate to the dealer to handle the transfer.
Dealers maintain none-paper records, too -- as do manufacturers. They have DRoS systems which are electronic. This makes it easy for them to provide data to the ATF when a suitable warrant is presented. What prevents the data from being a resource for government fishing expeditions? It's two things:
* The ATF is formally forbidden from centralizing the data in a big data warehouse -- it is technically against the law to maintain a federal gun registry.
* It is legal to transfer guns, albeit only in special circumstances, outside the system.
These two things together prevent the available information being used for a fishing expedition. Firstly, the government is not allowed to assemble the data; and secondly, the available data is imperfect -- it is not proof that a particular person owns a particular gun or even any guns.
The way this data works, it's not a big problem for combatting the illegal traffic in arms. A large part of that is identifying where, exactly, the arms exited the formal arms business and entered the black market. The data is perfectly suitable for that.
The data can't be used to show that this or that person definitely has this or that gun; and it can't be used to show which people have which guns, or how many people have more than ten, or anything like that. That is a good thing. Those are guns held by private citizens; they are private people, it's their private business.
Gun registries are not of much use for solving crimes related to guns. Criminals don't use leave behind guns that can be traced to them; and if a criminal is apprehended with a gun that may have been used in a crime, the gun has to be tied to the crime through physical evidence -- powder residue and stuff like that. It's not like there's some serial number at the scene of the crime that can be used to find the gun somehow!
They have different sources (one, poor access to mental healthcare, the other, poverty) and probably need different solutions too. I personally dont care as much about mass shootings, because in the grand scheme of gun crimes, lots less die. Nevermind Suicide, which is just access to mental healthcare.
I'm really interested in making poor communities safer, and reducing the transactions in illegal guns - but tbh, thats like trying to bail out a rowboat with a thimble - and without dealing with the underlying causes of gun crime folks debating in this space are effectively arguing about what color a building ought to be, while its also actively on fire.
In the end, I think everyone who buys a gun should have to go thru the same process, and should undergo a background check, and that a fail dangerous system is bad - now how we go about fixing that issue? thats another question entirely.
Private people, although they have the right to do so, don't generally transfer guns directly to strangers, because of the possibility of criminal prosecution for transfer to a prohibited person.
There are some improvements we can make to NICS -- but they all have to do with making sure the data is actually there.
https://www.stlpr.org/government-politics-issues/2022-04-29/...
Keep in mind that, in the absence of data indicating a conviction, a person is just going to get cleared in a few minutes. NICS checks basically never take even an hour, let alone a day; the time limit of three days is there to prevent the relevant agencies from engaging in malicious delays.
You have to have time limits like that for most government procedures; and we can't presume, in the absence of evidence, that someone should be denied. You are suggesting we give up something fundamental and general -- the presumption of innocence -- when you argue that NICS should default to closed.
I interpreted this as the cop having simply stolen the guns from their registered owners through some sort of search or seizure process.
Maybe it would help with the sleep terrors, maybe it would result in a rainbow colored cat.
Another thing that people do is set up a holster behind the headboard or somewhere else where they know to get at it.
There are loopholes, but there are reasons to prefer a gun that was last purchased under someone else's name, ideally someone you don't know at all.
Regardless, the thing I found interesting was the COP's perception of the value of the guns.
Case in point:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/08/texas-vigila...
The guy had a choice:
* Replace a wallet
* Shoot a guy dead
Obviously, we don't usually hear about the people that pick the first option, but there are plenty of takers for the 2nd.
I suspect that man would have eventually ended up dead anyway to someone legitimately fearing for their life.
There's probably also some calculus of "is society better off without this person?" running through the shooter's head.
America has this weird contradiction of being a place where anyone can get rich, be great, etc. But on the other hand, a criminal is irredeemable, can't change, will never get better, will get theirs tomorrow if not today.
Yes, with a bit more depth to the reading, you'd know that the robber had already collected the money and was leaving when he was shot in the back.
And what happens when another do-gooder walks into this taqueria, sees this guy shoot someone, and then grab money off the body? Wouldn't that person be in the clear to shoot the first guy?
What if the 2nd guy is a police officer?
As for the risk that someone else might mistake the shooter for the robber, anyone who has taken a concealed carry class has learned that there are risks to defending yourself. It's a choice you make because you don't think there are better ones.
But fundamentally, I'm objecting to your characterization that this guy was looking to legally kill someone or that it was motivated out of a desire to keep his wallet. The robber was threatening people's lives. The danger was not over. Shooting the robber was a reasonable choice given what the shooter knew at the time.
In the end, the Irish government decided to bankroll the rollout of fiber to "commercially unviable" areas (under the guide of a National Broadband Scheme). That prompted one of the unsuccessful telcos to suddenly find ~ 300k of those homes commercially viable!
Trying to understand why some properties have been hooked up and others not is a fruitless exercise. During the COVID lockdown, I discovered that most churches (which had a strong interest in broadcasting masses to their congregations) has either been deemed commercially unviable or not indexed at all. Many hoops were jumped through.
EDIT: Actually, from context they may be talking about a prior rollout. But the idea's the same.
Yeah, this was OpenEir (which is now just Eir’s standard commercial offering, though I think the rural buildout was subsidised). I was thinking of NBI, a separate network which is supposed to fill in what OpenEir didn’t.
Meanwhile I’m on coax; that’s the price you pay to live in the city center. (For whatever reason, Dublin city center tends to be behind on this stuff; my old apartment, beside Trinity, didn’t even get _VDSL_ until 2016 or so).
Second, the nationality of the perpetrators is often masked in case it is a foreigner.
Third, a random Google search isn’t exactly representative.
Obviously native Europeans have attacked police, medics etc. But organized mobs attacking firefighters, paramedics etc is a new phenomenon.
> Second, the nationality of the perpetrators is often masked in case it is a foreigner.
Ah, well, if we're going by nationality, I'm 6 for 6 - that last bloke with a Turkish surname was an ex-policeman, so I reckon he was probably a British national.
I think the random Google search is one up on a random internet denizen's unsourced opinion, to be honest. I kicked the tyres of your opinion with the most basic, cursory test and it came up short.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39047455
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/sweden-faile...
At the same time it is possible Polish sports fans are more rabid in their “support”.
It's the aftershocks of all the coronavirus/antivaxx conspiracy theories. The people who got brainwashed hard attack doctors/ER teams because they see them as murderers.
Checking out the "offences by outcome" uk gov spreadsheet[1] is a bit of a wash. Africans aren't any more overrepresented than they are for violent crime in general (less, in fact) and Middle Easterners seem to be lurking in the giant bag of "Not Stated" ethnicity. Though at least for assault of emergency workers in general (as opposed to predictable group attacks on entering an area) "White British" are still (barely) the majority.
[1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
The other "low income, uneducated people" never do such things, always the same group.
>The other "low income, uneducated people"
You are horribly misinformed if you actually believe this.
I live in the EU and that's not true, I know multiple people who own guns and go to the shooting range every other weekend
It’s not an insurmountable obstacle, and depending on the country can range from “California difficulty” to “basically an NFA stamp” but they’re out there.
Often they are not “the scary black rifle” type, but they’re still firearms.
Then again, in the USA you can buy a Gatling gun and you rarely hear issues around that - https://youtu.be/9U8850jgTwk?si=5UTz7HsgaLxgbFuS
Oddly, crossbows are also restricted, though may be licensed as above; as I understand it this is due to a legislative error which no-one has gotten around to fixing.
And in other countries, they make no distinction between a black-powder blunderbuss and fully automatic military weapons - they're both equally hard to obtain, so the people who do get a gun end up with a select-fire rifle.
Pistols are often more heavily regulated than rifles, because they're concealable.
In the USA you can just buy a black-powder cannon if you want. Artillery not so much if it is autoloading. The "own a musket for home defense" copy pasta comes to mind.
Is this... common? Can't imagine why anyone would want one.
(It's probably $5k to $10k to get a working cannon, and most owners are probably reenactors and movie-proppers.)
There was also a tradition at our high school to shoot off a cannon each time our football team scored a point at home games (just the powder no projectile).
Europe? Literally lots of people have guns, where I live, from 01 Sept there's plenty of gunshots ringing out scaring one of my dogs. I know two people in the uk that have shotguns (police checked, locked away in the attic). There are many ww2 firearms in circulation (Serbia, I believe just had an amnesty), so 'literally' is incorrect. The difference is: guns aren't common, and certainly aren't often carried, and most definitely not openly (apart from farmers and hunters, but the gun must be unloaded and broken(. My fave is talking to Americans that 'can't wait to get back home so I can carry my gun, for protection, it's my right'. Not a single one of them has been threatened whilst here. Nor have they been threatened in the States....but it's their right to protect themselves from the government. I always ask, if their government started being 'oppressive', how long would either sides' ammunition last? Not a single person I've spoken to has more than a few days ammo available.
I used to work at a multinational, we were quite amused when we saw an update to the US workplace rules that prohibited firearms anywhere on company property. One of my colleagues has his rifle in the office - he was going on a hunting trip and leaving immediately after work. Of course it was locked in a gun case and the bolt was stored separately, but it was amusing.
I'm from EU and I think UK laws are ridiculous. You can't allow anything to law abiding citizens to defend themselves.
Pepper spray is a banned weapon, the best UK joke I've ever heard.
Though yes, UK, Denmark and some other countries have quite ridiculous gun and self-defense laws.
You can own a giant killer dog that goes around menacing people.
That being said, I never saw a gun or even heard of someone having it (in my city of Novi Sad, at least - things may be different elsewhere).
Homicide rates for 2021 (according to macrotrends.net):
Serbia: 1.06 US: 6.81
Exactly.
Not only outside-EU countries; I live in EU country that has ratio of registered guns to cops ~4,5:1.
The difference to US is, that a) there's no open carry and b) no legal owner is going to threaten with a gun over something trivial (it is a good way to lose your license).
These two things make people carrying guns invisible, but not non-existing.
It's especially absurd when you realize that these people scream that they need guns to protect them from an oppressive government. Meanwhile in the US, we have millions and millions of dollars a year in Civil Asset Forfeiture, which even when justified is a direct impingement on your Fourth amendment rights, and just an assault on justice in general. These same people are also loudly applauding laws in states like Florida and Texas that explicitly oppress people of certain types. They also support laws that prevent women from getting absolutely NECESSARY health care.
The ONLY "right" they care about is the right to own guns, yet how many of them took up arms and came after the government after ruby ridge? Only one really did, and they used a bomb to kill a hundred innocent people in a completely unrelated part of the government.
EVERYTHING about "gun culture" in america is about "feeling" powerful, about being "strong", about fear of nebulous bullshit that doesn't exist. These people will seek out a video of some drugged up criminal taking twenty bullets before finally collapsing, and use that to justify buying the biggest handgun they can afford because of "stopping power" as if they need to defend their home from the damn hulk, and definitely don't care about over penetration accidentally killing their kids in the next room over.
These people simply want a world where might makes right, but are terrified because they aren't "might", so they get guns. They OBSESS over hero fantasies, gathering on message boards or facebook to talk about how they "totally would have stopped that shooter". They joke about shooting children that date their daughter, they make jokes about how "someone" should shoot people for being wrong. They just generally don't think other people deserve safety or life, and that the penalty for any action should be swift death from a cops gun. They then are stunningly silent when a cop shoots a legal firearm owner because the cop got jumpy about a black guy saying he had a gun. They often ARE the cops actually. Meanwhile an actual active shooter shows up in their local school and they take their sweet ass time doing nothing while hearing kids dying. Remember, the gun heavy community of Uvalde had many of their children murdered while heavily armed cops sat outside and prevented parents from trying to save their kids on their own. Did the local community rise up against this government force and overthrow a useless and dangerous government? No, they voted for them again in the next election. Because gun nuts would never shoot a cop, because they are friends.
Which is funny, because what do they think "the government" they would have to overthrow is? The ATF, and worse, liberals. That's as far as it goes. When they say "The second amendment is to protect us from an oppressive government", that means liberals sending the ATF to confiscate their guns and THAT'S IT.
What's funny is that the main historical example of a large scale uprising against the american state, the civil war, was fought like any other military conflict: with state owned firearms, including United States owned firearms stolen from american armories. They also seem convinced the the army would be on their side, instead of most of the military staying loyal to their commanders as is the norm in that situation. They point to Afghanistan as "look the US can't fight a resident population with guns", utterly oblivious to the fact that Afghanistan is what the US military looks like when its trying to play good cop. If you want to know what the US does to an armed and rebelling community, simply look how the US treated labor unions in the early 1900s. Here's a hint: They flatten an entire city block to kill them and it doesn't even make it into a history book.
And to top off this stupid shit pie? The NRA, the main advocate organization for gun ownership in the US, was run by Oliver North, of Iran-Contra infamy, until 2019, and their main funding comes through Russian hands nowadays.
Anecdotes aren't the strongest, but no worries, many of the small group of people I hang with have the combined capacity of a batallion, along with manufacturing capabilities in the case it's needed. All really great people too. We'd welcome a Euro like yourself in a heartbeat despite any differences we may have. Good luck out there.
Just like sending aid to Ukraine does not in any way excuse the US of invading a sovereign country in the middle east for fake reasons and then attempting colonialism for 20 years under the guise of "bringing democracy"
But you already knew that.
In the US, because of obscene paperwork and often actively hostile to poverty policies, it might be easier to just join a gang to survive.
Sadly I’ve heard many stories of cable/dish techs dealing with this nonsense.
So you will think twice to get it and you really don't want to loose it. Basically turning gun owners into the most law abiding citizens there is.
If you're talking about countries like UK or similar, where you can't legally defend against attackers and biggest cities are controlled by gangs with kitchen knives and acid bottles. Even police doesn't have guns and can't arrest them, cuz racism or something. GG EZ.
Good grief, where do you get your information?
* In the UK, it's perfectly legal to defend yourself ("reasonable force").
* Beat policemen don't carry guns; firearms officers do. Any policeman can arrest anyone they suspect of an offence.
* Drug dealers rob one another; it's a direct result of prohibition. If you rob a drug dealer, he isn't going to report it to the police. That's nothing special to the UK (or to big cities).
Come on, this is totally untrue. I grew up in rural Ireland and it's very common for farmers to own guns. Hunters too.
Check here [•] - Finland, for example, is only a couple of percentage points behind the US in number of households that own a gun (42% vs 37%).
The difference is in the culture, not gun ownership. In Finland, Ireland, and every single developed country in the world (and most developing countries too) except for the US, privately owned guns are for hunting or for killing pests, not for threatening humans. That's the difference.
•https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent_of_households_with_g...
All of that is to say that the companies really do put the techs in harms way in their operations.
Nevertheless never heard of such a thing happening.
In your average American neighborhood none of this would happen. In the rougher poor neighborhoods, everybody thinks everyone is out to get them (and frankly they might be right), is on edge, and likely has a loose association to the law or social mores.
Without going into an entire sociology diatribe, in America there are many reasons someone may end up poor, but low impulse control, lack of education, and an inability to follow rules tend to top the list, all of which can lead to very troubling outcomes that wouldn’t happen among the gainfully employed average, whom also pay their bills and would not be targeted for disconnection of service.
The majority of Americans own or have access to firearms (although it’s barely a minority of “households”), but incidents involving firearms happen in poorer neighborhoods predominantly. The mix is not great, and we should do something about it as a society but it’s a complex and somewhat intractable issue that’s not fully solved by just throwing money at it (just look at council houses in the UK as an example of similar outcomes despite social support).
Why did you think this?
> I thought most people in the US were proud of their firearm handling professionalism which of course includes not brandishing, threatening or murdering people.
Nothing about the parent comment implies otherwise. You're intentionally making up points that nobody made in order to push your agenda.
> I'm really a bit surprised to hear this.
...and you're not really surprised - this is just another use of emotionally manipulative language.
I thought most people in the US were proud of their firearm handling professionalism which of course includes not brandishing, threatening or murdering people. I'm really a bit surprised to hear this.
I did a similar job early on in my career (involving cheap phone calling devices with customers including consumers and often dodgy 'calling shops'). But the most dangerous situation I faced was a customer with a heavy dose of the flu, lol. And roadside fastfood.