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Re:Factorio: Space Age by vessenes on Friday August 25, 2023 @09:41AM (#37261624)
Oh wow, I'm very excited about this. The post author wrote the absolutely incredible Space Exploration mod for Factorio, pitching itself as a "100+" hour expansion, realistically closer to 1000 hours for an average player.

Space Exploration has its quirks, but is fundamentally an absolutely outstanding puzzle game, among the best ever made.

One of the most delightful things about Factorio for coders is that the game smoothly takes you through multiple levels of abstraction, starting with handcrafting simple ingredients, and (in the base game), moving up to small networks of trains with automation, and flying robot armies to deal with construction and logistics. I'd say there are three-ish layers of abstraction in the main game, and each layer is super well balanced, has its own challenges and benefits, and is above all FUN.

Space Exploration adds two to three more layers of abstraction above these; culminating in networks of interstellar spaceships moving items into orbit and on and off planetary surfaces, where they intersect with the original game's buildings and mechanics. It's profoundly, profoundly good.

I knew Wube had hired the mod developer, but I'm super happy to see he's deeply involved with Space Age, which is explained to be a less hardcore experience, with a lot of the same fun as SE. Should be a blast. I hope they'll charge me more for it.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by Laremere on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:25AM (#37262086)
> The post author wrote the absolutely incredible Space Exploration mod for Factorio

Each section has an author, and only the Space Exploration section is written by the mod author. Most of the post is written by kovarex, who is the founder of Factorio, afaik.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by throwaway894345 on Friday August 25, 2023 @11:05AM (#37262522)
Is the Factorio source code available anywhere? I would be really curious to see how a game like Factorio was developed (e.g., what parts are 'the engine' and what parts are scripted? how does such a complex game have so few bugs?)
Re:Factorio: Space Age by Therenas on Friday August 25, 2023 @11:15AM (#37262660)
The source is not publicly available, no. It‘s still being actively developed and sold after all. There isn‘t really much of a barrier between engine and 'scripting', it‘s all custom and integrated. The reason there are so few bugs is that there is a ton of effort spent on squashing them! The approach is basically to fix any reported issue if in any way reasonable.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by Zambyte on Friday August 25, 2023 @03:02PM (#37265812)
> The source is not publicly available, no. It‘s still being actively developed and sold after all.

Those two are definitely not incompatible. Take Karia[0] for example, which is fully Free Software[1].

[0] https://store.steampowered.com/app/1261430/Kandria/

[1] https://github.com/Shirakumo/kandria/blob/master/LICENSE

Re:Factorio: Space Age by BlueTemplar on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:01PM (#37267543)
Yeah, I wish more games would use this approach, they could for instance have the art assets separate, or do what Factorio does and have matchmaking and the official mod portal to be DRMed. (And/Or give out the source, but not the compiled binaries.)
Re:Factorio: Space Age by Zecc on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:24PM (#37268694)
Or (while on the subject of Factorio) Mindustry:

[0] https://mindustrygame.github.io/

Re:Factorio: Space Age by lannisterstark on Sunday August 27, 2023 @05:33AM (#37280957)
Factorio is arguably way, way more popular than Kandria, however.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by BlueTemplar on Sunday August 27, 2023 @10:57AM (#37283316)
It is now, are you suggesting it wouldn't have been as popular if it had been open sourced (more) ?
Re:Factorio: Space Age by lannisterstark on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @12:55AM (#37317839)
I'm suggesting that Open Sourcing an incredibly Popular game that has been selling well NOW would be a bad idea for sales.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by Zambyte on Sunday August 27, 2023 @04:09PM (#37286175)
I've never played Factorio so I didn't know that :)
Re:Factorio: Space Age by pmoriarty on Friday August 25, 2023 @11:15AM (#37262656)
Factorio is closed-source, unfortunately. Still, you can read a lot about how the devs developed it on their "Friday Facts" posts: https://factorio.com/blog/
Re:Factorio: Space Age by bombcar on Friday August 25, 2023 @12:43PM (#37263851)
This is actually better than the raw source for understanding the development; you have to start at the beginning and read forward.

Basically - tests, reproducibility, and dedication to tracking down "weird minor bugs" before they become "major show stoppers".

Re:Factorio: Space Age by k12sosse on Friday August 25, 2023 @11:10AM (#37262590)
You can turn bugs on or off when starting your world ;) depends on if you want to - oh, BUGS bugs, not bugs bugs.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by duskwuff on Friday August 25, 2023 @12:58PM (#37264098)
The C++ source code to the engine isn't publicly available, but Wube have given access to some outside developers.

The Lua source code to the "base mod" is (necessarily) included in the game, and you can read it if you have a copy of the game, and the modding API is fully documented: https://lua-api.factorio.com/

Re:Factorio: Space Age by TillE on Friday August 25, 2023 @02:45PM (#37265631)
In addition to their very informative blogs, you can infer a lot based on their extensive Lua modding API:

https://lua-api.factorio.com/latest/

They also ship a full .pdb file with the Windows binaries (presumably for stack traces), so you can get a lot of information with dia2dump, or dig in with WinDbg.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by rcxdude on Friday August 25, 2023 @07:42PM (#37268424)
They do seem to have shared the source code with some of the more prominent modders in the past, but it is not generally available.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by dekhn on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:13PM (#37268612)
I spent some time thinking about how to implement Factorio and it occurred to me that things like conveyors are probably represented as linked lists (all the conveyer elements in order) while also having X,Y grid coordinates. Every time you modify a conveyor belt chain, the game engine is probably adding/removing nodes from the list, or splitting lists in two, or joining two lists. I can't see how they get some of the effects in the game but there is probably a TON of clever optimization so they can maintain the target frame rate.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by francoisdevlin on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:17PM (#37268634)
Re:Factorio: Space Age by Buttons840 on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:06PM (#37278441)
As said, Factorio's core is compiled binary, with a lot of customizable Lua on top.

Fun story:

Somebody independently recreated the core engine themselves to prove a point about multi-threading. Imagine recreating an entire game engine in 50,000 lines of C++ to prove a point, yeah, it happened: https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/jizq1b/comment/ga... What a legend!

Re:Factorio: Space Age by mmastrac on Friday August 25, 2023 @09:48AM (#37261701)
I wouldn't put trains and smooth in a single sentence. The signals required a lot of patience to learn and I'm not entirely sure I still understand them.

They are by far one of the most painful parts of factorio for me.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by pmoriarty on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:00AM (#37261829)
I just use city-block blueprints and never really worry about signals.

However, the foolproof advice I've gotten from r/Factorio has been to put chain signals at the entrance and exit to every junction, and to make sure there's enough space for your longest train to stop behind a rail signal (and you wouldn't mind having it stop there).

I can also recommend the cybersyn mod (or LTN). Once you understand one of these mods it makes dealing with trains much less of a hassle.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by red_admiral on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:20AM (#37262035)
Not necessarily at the exit.

Normal signal: train stops if there's a train in the section ahead (or it's reserved for another train on a conflicting path), otherwise train goes.

Chain signal: train stops here until it can get a mutex on a path past another non-chain signal.

So if you have rail sections (small letters) and signals (capitals) a - A - b - B - c - C - d in a row on a plain line and A/B are chain signals and C is regular, then trains from the left will stop at A until the train can grab all sections b, c, d in one go.

That's why chain signals at the entrance to a junction are good (prevents a train stopping on the junction) but you want regular ones at the exit, at least if some plain line follows.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by pmoriarty on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:28AM (#37262125)
"Chain in, rail out" is the standard advice. However, if you search around r/Factorio you'll see there's debate about whether that's the best advice for beginners.

Chain both in and out is supposedly the foolproof method, and apart from stations, rail signals are just an optimization.

Though I've played a lot of Factorio, I've never really felt the need to dive deeply in to signals, and I'm happy to just use the foolproof method and leave more optimized solutions for those who need them.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by mcv on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:46AM (#37262318)
I prefer to see it as regular signals designate the next segment as a segment where trains are allowed to wait. If you don't want trains to stop in that segment, don't put a regular signal in front of it.

And of course you don't want trains stopping on intersections, because they'll block everybody, so you always put chain signals in front of intersections.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by kzrdude on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:56AM (#37262435)
The train needs to reserve the whole next contiguous sequence of chain signals to be able to go, so the foolproof method makes it sound like each train reserves the whole path from one station to another. It makes sense, but I like to do the optimizations, then, and allowing trains to stop in longer stretches where they can.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by mcv on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:42AM (#37262261)
Trains are my favourite part of the game, and I always make myself a massive bowl of train spaghetti. I love watching my trains automatically find their way across my messy maze of train tracks.

My simple rules:

* Trains can only stop on the section after a regular signal. If you don't want a train to be able to stop in a certain place (like on an intersection), don't use a regular signal in front of it.

* Make sure trains have places where they can stop. This will mostly be stations, but that's not enough. Actually, I've been wondering if it might be enough for stations that are only visited by a single train; then the train would only go if it has a clear path straight to its destination. Maybe I should give this a try. For me, however, the straights outside the intersections are usually fine places for trains to stop. But for better throughput and less blockage, there should probably multiple tracks, and special tracks for trains waiting to enter a station currently occupied by another train.

* Trains cannot pass a signal on their left if there's not also a signal on their right. You can use this to make certain tracks single-direction. Single-direction is good and easier than double-direction, so of course I mix them, because I'm not playing this game because I like things easy.

* Don't forget to give your trains a place to refuel! This is actually the part I mess up the most.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by pmoriarty on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:49AM (#37262349)
For refueling I've recently been using the cybersyn mod, which let's you easily create a refueling stations that your trains will automatically go to when they're low on fuel (with exactly how "low" they need to be being configurable in the mod settings).

I just plop down a refueling station, and a requester station next to it that refuels the refueler and I'm done. Don't have to worry about it again.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by mcv on Friday August 25, 2023 @11:40AM (#37262950)
I always make them refuel at one of their regular stops. There's usually a source of fuel nearby, so I just route a small part of that along all the engines.

But sometimes I forget, and sometimes there's no fuel nearby.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by knome on Friday August 25, 2023 @03:31PM (#37266082)
My most complex train system had every train carry a single item type, and a large central trainyard. trains won't leave without an active destination. so all of the destinations for dropping off a type had the same name, and similarly the pick ups and would be disabled by circuits if their dropoffs were more than a quarter or so full. so if something needed green electronics, it would activate its DropOffGreenElectronics, the train would leave the yard, or sometimes 2-3 as at the time I didn't have any way of limiting it and one train wasn't enough to service all of the delivery points with my single car trains. the thundering herd problem[1] was real. the first train would get there, rest would go home. everything refueled at the home terminal, which had a stop for the coal train on it. each train had (dropoff(X) -> pickup(X) -> rest(X)) for their instructions. it worked pretty well.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thundering_herd_problem

Re:Factorio: Space Age by mcv on Friday August 25, 2023 @07:10PM (#37268176)
Interesting approach. I do give multiple pickup points for the same name (so while my old coal field is slowly running out, trains increasingly move to the new coal field by themselves), but I hadn't considered doing the same with the drop-offs.

And I haven't yet figured out how to disable drop-offs that don't need anything. I often have a single train bring stuff to a couple of drop-offs, but that always feels sloppy. I have to use timeouts on the trains so they don't linger at a station that's too full to empty them. Disabling those stations and giving them all the same name might be a better alternative.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by knome on Friday August 25, 2023 @09:19PM (#37269032)
>And I haven't yet figured out how to disable drop-offs that don't need anything

look into your circuit networks. you can make them quite complex if you want

Re:Factorio: Space Age by dbt00 on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:40PM (#37268793)
Newer versions of factorio have a per-station limit on the number of trains that can be in + routing to that particular stop. very helpful for this kind of problem.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by moviuro on Friday August 25, 2023 @09:58AM (#37261798)
> The signals required a lot of patience to learn and I'm not entirely sure I still understand them.

Chain signals before an intersection; regular signals after those, and on the track to split the track for multiple trains simultaneously.

See: https://wiki.factorio.com/Tutorial:Train_signals if you haven't already.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by drewmate on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:07AM (#37261907)
Another major stumbling block for train signals once you get the basics down is segment length. Signals indicate whether the next segment is occupied, not whether any given train will fit in there (and potentially block a segment or intersection behind it.)

I frequently set up tracks with segments as large as my longest train, but then end up having to add an intersection here or there, breaking up segments into smaller sizes. This is the root of most of my train woes (aside from LTN issues, which are a whole other issue!)

Re:Factorio: Space Age by jcranmer on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:11AM (#37261946)
> Signals indicate whether the next segment is occupied, not whether any given train will fit in there (and potentially block a segment or intersection behind it.)

That's what chain signals are for. If a train waiting at a signal causes issues, replace the previous signal with a chain signal to prevent the train from problematically waiting at the signal.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by Aeolun on Friday August 25, 2023 @09:55AM (#37261761)
They’re sort of understandable. When someone described it to me as the blue signals checking the status of the next signal (blue or colored) and doing that, everything made a lot more sense. They’re still sometimes hard to debug because there’s no visualization but I always end up feeling that the issue was my fault
Re:Factorio: Space Age by freeone3000 on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:41AM (#37262252)
The stuck train is your visualization :P
Re:Factorio: Space Age by pmoriarty on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:53AM (#37262398)
Blue signals just mean that some, but not all, segments ahead are blocked by a signal.

Also, this video[1] by Soulless Gaming on "How to Fix Train Path Errors" has a lot of useful tips on train/signal troubleshooting.

[1] - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsep-xJXkI

Re:Factorio: Space Age by xedrac on Friday August 25, 2023 @09:58AM (#37261794)
There's certainly a learning curve - it's a form of programming that must be learned.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by mmastrac on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:54AM (#37262404)
That's like saying brainf*ck is a form of programming. I'm happy to learn, but some tasks are masochistic.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by TuringTourist on Friday August 25, 2023 @11:15AM (#37262649)
I would argue that train signalling is not intentionally obfuscated as brainfuck is however. Just a different form of thinking.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by bombcar on Friday August 25, 2023 @12:46PM (#37263903)
I think it's pretty clear from the blog posts that they tried to make trains as simple as they could, and it's as complex as it is now because that's the simplest it can be without having actual errors and bugs.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by guhidalg on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:11AM (#37261953)
Repeat after me: "Chain IN, Rail OUT" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZDmzFKhPI0

It's basically a visual version of the classic deadlock conditions. Chain signals create dependencies between locks, and the locks themselves (the rail signals) have to be granular enough to keep large sections of the rail network available to acquire. The confusing part about the chain signals is the blue state: the train will use its pathfinding to read forward of the signal and it will move if the path it needs to take is available. You have to look forward of the signal to see if the rail signal for the path the train wants to take is green or not.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by wbl on Friday August 25, 2023 @09:54AM (#37261756)
Try logistic train network mod
Re:Factorio: Space Age by oefrha on Friday August 25, 2023 @11:11AM (#37262603)
Vanilla trains are absolutely pitiful for megabases, and annoying even for midsized bases. I simply consider LTN part of the base game.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by bombcar on Friday August 25, 2023 @12:45PM (#37263894)
LTN is really nice, but it is "fun" (for some people, like me) to build a LTN-like network in vanilla before using LTN going forward.

Once you've "figured it out" it's much easier to drop down "smart stations" instead of building them yourself each time.

Just like I recommend players who want to do city blocks build their own blueprints instead of just loading up someone's (even if you later switch to someone's standard blueprint, you'll at least understand the why).

And of course, it's a sandbox game! You could just download a completed map, but there's no fun in that.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by polski-g on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:15AM (#37272593)
I switched to Cybersyn, same functionality as LTN but way less complexity setting it up.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by dimava on Friday August 25, 2023 @12:28PM (#37263607)
The best available explanation, think "20% of things that cover 80% of cases", is DoshDoshington's [Factorio Trains Explained in Less Than Three Minutes](https://youtube.com/watch?v=DG4oD4iGVoY)
Re:Factorio: Space Age by EMM_386 on Friday August 25, 2023 @03:24PM (#37266014)
> I wouldn't put trains and smooth in a single sentence.

I had over 500 hours in Factorio before I felt comfortable with signalling. I got so frusturated with it originally I just ignored it as best I could.

But the "chain in, rail out" thing as others are mentioning really is the key. It's not always as perfectly simple as that, but it's a very good starting point.

You break everything up into blocks ... if you place a chain signal right before an intersection and a rail signal on the way out, you'll be there for most situations.

Most.

My most complex map has about 50 trains running and all intersecting each other and so far, everything is running smoothly on that one. No trains slamming into each other and everything running efficiently as far as I can tell. Almost all of it is just that "chain in, rail out" thing.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by TylerE on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:45PM (#37268823)
Also; Bidirectional trap is a massive moon trap. Avoid it at all costs.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by infogulch on Friday August 25, 2023 @05:11PM (#37267087)
If you just want to have trains and move on, I made a complete tiling rail kit a few years ago:

https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/i2szgb/tiling_uti...

> 2-way 6-wide right hand rail system on a global 60-tile grid with interoperable 90° & 45° variants. Intended to be simple, complete, & hard to misuse.

> Features: rotational symmetry, red&green wired poles, landfill, blueprints for Through, Turn, Tee, Junction, and U-Turn for both 90° & 45°, 90°/ 45° transition blueprints

> Tiling is based on large power poles, 60 is the max distance between 3 poles in a straight line, or 5 poles diagonally.

Here's a big example with all the rail components slapped together for a demo: https://i.imgur.com/84P9nO0.png

I also made the simplest tiling nuclear blueprint kit: https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/gp0jmb/infogulchs...

Re:Factorio: Space Age by animal531 on Saturday August 26, 2023 @06:35AM (#37271498)
I'm not even sure how many hours I have in the game, but I've never bothered with trains, I just didn't enjoy their gameplay for some reason.

Fortunately this is totally fine, you can get by without them.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by 12345hn6789 on Friday August 25, 2023 @11:17AM (#37262671)
Space exploration is not the best puzzle game ever made. Space exploration is not the best factorip mod ever made.

Space exploration has a great presentation layer (graphics and UI) but the logistics challenge and gameplay challenges leave lots to be desired. I implore you to try many of the other high quality factorio mods made over the years.

Pyanodons is easily the greatest factorio mod. The sheer quality and scale leaves SE trembling.

https://mods.factorio.com/user/pyanodon

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/SeaBlock

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/AngelBob

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Krastorio2

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/exotic-industries

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/IndustrialRevolution3

I'd say nearly every single one of these mods has quality on par with Space Exploration.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by NelsonMinar on Friday August 25, 2023 @11:22AM (#37262726)
Most of these mods are "make the middle game more complex". Nothing wrong with that! Krastorio is my favorite of the ones you mention. Space Exploration is unusual in creating an interesting game after the main game, taking you to completely new places and gameplay modes. Seablock is also a little like that, only it makes the beginning of the game totally different instead of the end.

It's great how many deep and interesting mods Factorio has allowed.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by koheripbal on Friday August 25, 2023 @12:56PM (#37264061)
I'd love a mod that actually respected the true materials/engineering recipes in real life.

Obviously, you can't recreate the complete complexity of all global supply chains, but it would be nice for a mod to get a little closer.

Standard factorio glosses over way too much to be considered educational, which is what i need before I get my son addicted with me. (Yes, i know standard Factorio still has a lot to offer - i just want more detail)

Re:Factorio: Space Age by fattless on Friday August 25, 2023 @01:34PM (#37264581)
Fair but id offer that having more "realistic" recipies and those details would still offer far less than understanding and practicing the engineering process. Finding efficient solutions to your problems and engineering them over and over again for efficiency teaches excellent problem solving and engineering skills that would be hugely beneficial, imo more important than learning the specific materials that make each item irl.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by Tyr42 on Friday August 25, 2023 @02:34PM (#37265488)
[delayed]
Re:Factorio: Space Age by BlueTemplar on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:28PM (#37267801)
Most of the overhaul mods get closer, more or less depending on the mod :

https://youtu.be/dY2nxVNBHQs?&t=3m41s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyldichlorosilane

There are also mods that make it more realistic in a different way :

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/belt-overflow

Re:Factorio: Space Age by NeveHanter on Friday August 25, 2023 @07:07PM (#37268143)
There's Unfunny Science overhaul mod which is quite new ;)

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/un-science

Re:Factorio: Space Age by BlueTemplar on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:39PM (#37267905)
Warptorio is to be noted, for the way it radically changes what the game is about, closer to the Factorio scenarios, and even somewhat compatible with the overhaul mods !

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/warptorio2

> Factorio but you build your factory in a restricted space that teleports yourself, the platform, and everything on it to a new and uncharted planet in an unknown corner of space, time and the universe while constantly under attack from enemies. This mod increases the difficulty of factorio by making construction harder and making biters a more significant threat, resulting in a unique experience of factorio'ing in a tight space and under pressure, almost like a tower defence game.

Speaking of scenarios, let's not forget that Factorio has a PvP mode ! (Better use a PvP balance mod though...)

https://youtu.be/DBn9IQTxIvY

Re:Factorio: Space Age by coryfklein on Friday August 25, 2023 @11:33AM (#37262863)
So looking at /user/pyanodon, there doesn't even appear to be a mod named "Pyanodons", but rather he's made a whole bunch of different mods. Which one are you recommending? All of them at once?
Re:Factorio: Space Age by dimava on Friday August 25, 2023 @12:13PM (#37263390)
See https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/567718271823118347/10... flowchart

4, 7, or all 9 mods depending on how long game you are looking for

Re:Factorio: Space Age by EMM_386 on Friday August 25, 2023 @01:01PM (#37264151)
Unless you are extremely experienced with Factorio and want a challenge that will last you close to another 1,000 hours (at least) ... don't even attempt Pyanodons.

It's for a very specific type of hardcore player and very few people have actually finished it.

This is the flowchart for ONE science (space) ... one. There are numerous sciences.

https://i.imgur.com/JCVVTjn.jpg

Re:Factorio: Space Age by X6S1x6Okd1st on Friday August 25, 2023 @11:26AM (#37262781)
Angel+Bob & SeaBlock just seem masochistic to me. I have had the most fun with SE + K2.

I haven't tried pyanodon because it doesn't seem like it was made to be played as a game but rather shown off as a testimate to how far you can take things

Re:Factorio: Space Age by pmoriarty on Friday August 25, 2023 @11:59AM (#37263208)
I tried SeaBlock, but aborted my playthrough before long because it was too boring. I'm enjoying K2, though.

Don't think I'll want to try Space Exploration if it's even worse than SeaBlock.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by X6S1x6Okd1st on Friday August 25, 2023 @12:14PM (#37263401)
> Don't think I'll want to try Space Exploration if it's even worse than SeaBlock.

I would really recommend SE above SeaBlock, IMO SeaBlock feels like it throws away almost all of the recipies you know & doesn't give you much new to reward you, I felt like it was more like some random fanfic. Where as SE felt like it was a poorly edited directors cut of the original movie. There's way too much & it's audience is really the people that wanted a 4h movie with 6 different subplots. Also lacking the polish of the original, but still very much in the spirit.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by kzrdude on Friday August 25, 2023 @12:45PM (#37263879)
SE kind of has fantastic polish on its own - its new features like cargo rockets work flawlessly IMO, but sure, it has not been cut down to reasonable length.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by saberience on Friday August 25, 2023 @02:12PM (#37265166)
Just having a lot of complexity or scale doesn’t mean a game or mod is good. In fact, just making something complex or “big” is the easy part. Designing something so it is actually fun, well designed and challenging while not being frustrating, tiresome, or simply just a giant time sink, is much much harder.

Pyanodons isn’t fun to play, it’s just too much, ridiculously complex recipes for the sake of it, quality of life features removed or pushed out late into the game just for artificial difficulty and pain. Most players never complete it and give up not even 10% into the game, which generally isn’t the sign of a well designed game.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by BlueTemplar on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:42PM (#37267933)
What QoL did pY remove ??

Also for instance construction bots now come "earlier", in red science (though due to the extra complexity, probably still a bit "later" ?).

In recent versions you also get at the start filter inserters that do not require any power.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by TylerE on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:43PM (#37268805)
Red science (the first milestone) in py is quite a bit harder than launching a rocket (aka endgame) in vanilla/base.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by sterlind on Friday August 25, 2023 @04:54PM (#37266907)
Pyanodons is a unique experience. Everything has dozens of steps. In the base game, circuit boards are made from copper wire and iron plates, whereas in Pyanodons, you need formica for the PCB substrate, which requires tree nurseries to make wood and a full coal cracking facility to produce creosote, a glassworks, half a dozen different metals, not to mention pick and place machines and all other sorts of intermediates. And that's just baby steps.

But it's flawed in other ways. In particular, a lot of the Py building sprites hide what's behind them. In the base game, all the sprites aren't taller than their footprint, but they are in Py, which makes them unwieldy and easy to lose things. And what's fun is building these huge production lines, but there's no easy way to tear up your old base and reconfigure things until you hit bots, which is waaaay down the line.

In short, Py is wonderful and I've never played any sort of game like it before, but it has unnecessary rough edges from a game design perspective, aside from its masochism.

Re:Factorio: Space Age by BlueTemplar on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:47PM (#37267987)
Construction bots are pushed earlier in red science, though getting there might be about the same challenge as the whole of vanilla !

Though I would recommend using at least Picker Extended for its semi-automatic filling of placed blueprints.

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/PickerExtended

Re:Factorio: Space Age by lsaferite on Friday August 25, 2023 @05:17PM (#37267175)
I love many aspects of SE, but I'd _love_ if most of them were stand-alone mods that were built up into a mod pack. For instance, all of the pylons are great! The condenser turbine I think is a much nicer solution for nuclear power.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by WutWatWot on Friday August 25, 2023 @07:34PM (#37268364)
Pyanodons is literally a joke. It's not designed to be finished.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by cptroot on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:36PM (#37269445)
There is no way Pyanodon's could be considered the "greatest" Factorio mod. 99% of Factorio players go "that looks like an awful time" when confronted with a single refining flow chart for a single mineral. I'd agree if you wanted to ask which factorio mod is the "most" that Pyanodon's is king and will never be dethroned.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by NelsonMinar on Friday August 25, 2023 @11:18AM (#37262682)
Space Exploration is a fantastic mod and I thought it was great news when the company hired the developer. Excited to see the result is pretty much exactly what I hoped for! I appreciate the dev's comments about the differences, how the new Space Age will be accessible to more players.
Re:Factorio: Space Age by bombcar on Friday August 25, 2023 @12:49PM (#37263941)
I really liked his distinction between "normal game" and "what the modded players want" - you have a similar distinction in Minecraft and it's important for modded players to realize and remember that the normal game shouldn't be the modded one, they are different markets (and the modded players are the ones who go out of their way to 'get more').
Re:Factorio: Space Age by mananaysiempre on Friday August 25, 2023 @02:19PM (#37265259)
Another game that is very much about abstraction levels is the text quest Hadean Lands[1]. Inform 7 source (not open but) available[2]!

[1] https://hadeanlands.com/

[2] https://hadeanlands.com/src/ (spoilers) (duh)

Re:Factorio: Space Age by Aardwolf on Friday August 25, 2023 @05:56PM (#37267500)
I'm excited for the expansion, and also for weekly Friday Facts again, yay! Those are a great mix of interesting technical content, and hype building