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Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by p-e-w on Saturday May 06, 2023 @01:35AM (#35838367)
The justifications given in that essay leave a really bad taste in my mouth:

> I believe using "comprised of" is poor writing, because

> It's completely unnecessary. There are many other ways to say what the writer means by "comprised of". It adds nothing to the language.

That's true for many, many other words. In fact, most instances of definite and indefinite articles "add nothing to the language", since the actual information is in the noun. Just leave them out, right? "I go house."

> It's illogical for a word to mean two opposite things.

"To comprise" and "to be comprised of" contain the same word, but not in the same sense.

> The etymology of the word does not support "comprised of".

That's irrelevant to the current meaning of the word. This is called an "etymological fallacy"[1].

> It's new. Many current Wikipedia readers were taught to write at a time when not one respectable dictionary endorsed "comprised of" in any way. It was barely ever used before 1970.

Good luck reading Wikipedia, or any newspaper article, if you are uncomfortable with language coined during the past half-century. What exactly is that "Internet" thing people keep talking about? Note that "The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Collins English Dictionary and the Oxford Dictionaries regard the form comprised of as standard English usage."[2]

The author could have just written "I don't like 'comprised of', and I'm going to impose my preference on everyone else, even though the term has been part of standard contemporary English for a long time."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprised_of

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by drewcoo on Saturday May 06, 2023 @01:49AM (#35838444)
>> It's illogical for a word to mean two opposite things.

And to support your stance against that, I offer this:

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/57032/25-words-are-their...

They can take "cleave" from my cold, dead hands!

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by phoenixreader on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:38AM (#35838704)
I was going to mention “sanction”. Happy to learn more words like that!
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by riffraff on Saturday May 06, 2023 @01:57AM (#35838503)
Oh that misses my favorite, "egregiously" which means both done very well and done exceptionally wrong, the latter used more commonly, the former archaic.

But in my language we only use the original positive meaning, so I was deeply confused by English using it for a long time.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by emodendroket on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:24AM (#35838640)
While we're on trivia, the etymology of this word is the Latin for "leaving the flock." The Japanese word 抜群, meaning "exceptional," has this exact same etymology except by way of Chinese rather than Latin.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by bombcar on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:09AM (#35842094)
There’s a number that change over time; awful and terrible for example. Very old hymns talk about how awful and terrible God is, for example.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by yellowapple on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:39AM (#35842411)
I mean, it's accurate either way, at least in the Old Testament.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by riffraff on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:08PM (#35852880)
Ah yes, this is indeed the subject of a Terry Pratchett bit about elves in "Lords and Ladies"

> Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder. Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels. Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies. Elves are glamorous. They project glamour. Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment. Elves are terrific. They beget terror. The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning. No one ever said elves are nice. Elves are bad.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by morsch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:03AM (#35838529)
Articles obviously add information: is it a specific, known house you are going to (I'm going to the house) or a non-specific/not previously referred to (I'm going to a house)?

When it's your own house you're going to, you could argue the definite article wouldn't add anything, and the phrasal verb to go home drops it (ie. I'm going home), though adding an article is possible and changes the meaning (I'm going to the/a home, in the context of a home for the elderly or some such).

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by 112233 on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:29AM (#35838662)
This statement is true only if it is not possible to tell from the context if the noun refers to a specific/previously mentioned thing or not. It would be possible to measure the amount of information contained in these articles, Shannon style, by taking a body of text, removing the articles, and then asking a bunch of english speakers ( that can possibly be approximated by a LLM ) to put back in the correct articles. Any uncertainty or variation would point to information being lost by the removal.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by tysam_and on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:41AM (#35838731)
I was thinking about Shannon entropy as well, as the OP completely forgets the word 'from' as well! "I go to house", "I go from house". Certainly, house contains more information, but the concepts of to and from as some kind of token do contain meaningful amounts of entropy as well.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by morsch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:14AM (#35838969)
Human languages are highly redundant, for the most part. The communication channel is lossy, so you add parity bits and error correction codes.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by emodendroket on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:25AM (#35838645)
I would leave the argument but tweak the example given to support: it "adds nothing to the language" that we have many more or less perfectly synonymous terms, such as purse/handbag, pop/soda, and so on.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by regularfry on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:30AM (#35839071)
They're regional though. "Purse" and "handbag" don't have the same meaning in the UK, and "pop" and "soda" are rare in their US meaning.

In this case "compose" and "comprise" do have different meanings. "Compose" has the sense of "put together" whereas "comprise" is closer to "contain". You'd never say "contained of" unless you were going for a really archaic sentence construction. I think it's less clear that "comprised of" is incorrect in all cases, but I do agree it sounds ugly and that there's almost always going to be a better phrasing available.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by emodendroket on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:58AM (#35839193)
Wikipedia themselves maintain a page about "comprised of" that has citations going back to the 18th Century. I think it has been long enough to concede that it has the supposedly objectionable meaning.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by denton-scratch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:29AM (#35842302)
> is it a specific, known house you are going to

"I'm going house" contains less meaning than "I'm going to [a] house". Without the preposition, it could mean "I'm leaving [a] house" ("I'm going from house").

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by tysam_and on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:22AM (#35838631)
Plus, generally languages are comprised of, among other things, a hodgepodge of colloquialisms that add flavor to the discourse.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by bspammer on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:07AM (#35838910)
Flavor isn’t part of the Wikipedia style guide though. The language used across articles is intentionally conservative and boring.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by bee_rider on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:33AM (#35838680)
I don’t love “is comprised of,” and think it can usually be replaced with something like “contains” or simply “is,” resulting in a better, more direct sentence. But I’m not going to go on a crusade against it.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by redmorphium on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:11AM (#35838946)
"My itinerary is comprised of four hotel stays." --->

"My itinerary is comPOSED of four hotel stays."

or

"My itinerary coNSISTS of four hotel stays."

Much better.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by jasomill on Saturday May 06, 2023 @04:18AM (#35839299)
"I'll be staying at four hotels."
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by rvnx on Saturday May 06, 2023 @06:23AM (#35839947)
This. Simple, direct, and much more intelligible.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by prepend on Saturday May 06, 2023 @08:59AM (#35840918)
“I’ll stay at four hotels.”
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by yellowapple on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:37AM (#35842384)
"I plan on staying at four hotels.", if you want to more accurately preserve the original meaning (just because it's on the itinerary doesn't mean I'll actually be staying at all four hotels, but it does typically mean there's a plan I intend to follow).
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by redmorphium on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:43AM (#35842450)
It really depends on sentence flow. With the usual SVO order, the subject becomes the focus.

If the context or dialogue goes like this: "Where are you staying for your vacation?" then the logical subject of the answer should come first, e.g. "I am staying ..."

However if the lead-in focuses more on the itinerary rather than the traveler, e.g.

"What is your plan? Can you describe your itinerary?" then it makes a lot of sense to start with "My itinerary involves..." or "My itinerary consists of..." or for a passive voice, "My itinerary is composed of..."

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by Izkata on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:13PM (#35843858)
Correction: "I'm planning on staying at four hotels, but there might be more depending on how my trip goes (because it's not completely 100% planned out)."

"Consists of" creates a minimum bound, not an exact amount.

For that matter, meaning was already lost in the original post: If "comprised of" was used in the original sentence, it would mean at least one of the hotels was a destination itself rather than just a place to stay (a historic building or something, for example).

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by nhinck2 on Saturday May 06, 2023 @04:37AM (#35839400)
?? If you say so
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by bombcar on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:06AM (#35842064)
The alphabet contains five vowels is a completely different statement from the alphabet is comprised of five vowels.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by bee_rider on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:37PM (#35842954)
Sure, they aren’t always one-for-one swaps.

To make your “comprised” example correct, I guess it would have to be something like “the alphabet is comprised of five vowels, twenty consonants, and Y, which can be either.”

(Note: Wikipedia lists W as also sometimes a vowel now?)

This is an OK sentence, probably because the alphabet is not very complicated. But we’re basically stuck describing the whole thing in one sentence because of the use of “comprised.”

If we’d gone with “contains,” we’d have more flexibility, we could break it down and do one component per sentence, for example.

It isn’t always wrong, it just makes a lot of decisions for you and they aren’t always optimal.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by riwsky on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:37AM (#35838695)
* * *
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by ttiurani on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:41AM (#35838733)
> I'm going to impose my preference on everyone else, even though the term has been part of standard contemporary English for a long time.

At least I, as a non-native speaker, find the edited sentences always easier to read. They simply make the text better.

As the entire point od Wikipedia is to make knowledge accessible with co-writing, I find it just wild that people would object to better language.

So who exactly is imposing their preference on the world: the one making the text easier to read, or the one objecting to the edits?

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by tysam_and on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:46AM (#35838771)
I find this to be a false equivalence.

People can horribly misuse the phrase "comprised of". Bland articles that directly communicate the language can be more or less tasteful depending upon who is reading them. Almost assuredly sentences can be written without "comprised of" that are also definitely not bland.

But classifying something you find easier to read as better language for everyone doesn't make it immediately true for everyone.

Additionally, it's not about a person making text easier to read or not from one (or multiple peoples') perspectives -- this appears to be about someone going on a stylistic crusade en masse. Objecting to the edits being an act of 'imposing their preference on the world' feels similar to the political mirror-projection kind of argument that can happen.

I think there is interesting discussion to be had (is it better? are there good ways to use it? when/where/how? what is the ethicality of editing articles like this? is a disclaimer wiki entry enough? etc etc), and maybe we can focus on that.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by fatfingerd on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:14AM (#35840200)
I can't see how eliminating a common misuse of an otherwise dead word wouldn't be clearer to nonnative speakers and less painful to the brains of native speakers. There are a lot of people who want to add dead vocabulary back to sound important and they'll succeed often enough with words that are at best unnecessary synonyms that convey no additional information. We don't really have to give them the benefit of the doubt when they do it completely wrong.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by lal on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:39AM (#35841805)
This conversation has gone back in a circle though. The original parent comment here pointed out that none of the arguments given for why it's a "misuse" hold water. "I can't see how eliminating a common misuse wouldn't be clearer" is not a responsive reply to "it's not a misuse."
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by fatfingerd on Saturday May 06, 2023 @01:45PM (#35843627)
I thought the article was clear enough. Comprises with no preposition matches its first and uncontested use. The preposition form is using the second more debatable form to create the first in a way that implies ignorance or wordiness any editor should correct.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by denton-scratch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:17AM (#35842162)
> People can horribly misuse the phrase "comprised of".

I think that phrase is always incorrect. I suspect the problem is that people aren't used to words that take a list as their direct argument, like "comprise".

Wikipedia leans heavily to descriptivism (as do nearly all lexicons, these days). So there's no incorrect usage; there's only usage that jars, for some people.

I don't go around telling people they're ignorant because they can't speak their mother-tongue properly. That would simply be rude. But English text intended for publication should be correct English; it shouldn't be garbled, whether because it's written by a non-native speaker, or a native speaker who isn't well-read.

That implies that there is such a thing as "correct English". This seems obvious to me, but that's exactly what descriptivists deny.

Let's not get into whether "literally" is a synonym for "figuratively".

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by skupig on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:16PM (#35843887)
Correct according to whom? The language you speak is the result of thousands of years of casual communication by billions of human beings. Precriptivism of a living natural language is hubris.

What seems like perfect English to you is not perfect to everyone.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by denton-scratch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @04:40PM (#35845187)
> The language you speak is the result of thousands of years of casual communication by billions of human beings.

Disagree. The language I speak didn't exist 800 years ago. The Anglo-saxons wouldn't have understood me, and I wouldn't have understood them.

And there were barely a billion human beings just 800 years ago - forget about thousands of years.

I didn't mention "prescriptivism", althpough it's obviously the opposite of descriptivism.

I thiink you mistake "prescriptivism" for a sort of law-making,like grammar-nazis. I mean something more like a general acceptance that words do have particular meanings, and that it's possible to be wrong about the meaning or use of a word.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by htfu on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:32PM (#35853124)
Whether or not that is the case, once enough wrong'uns do their thing it becomes correct, correct? Whatever the history or logic or what have you. So it becomes more a question of whether "90k instances on Wikipedia, has made it into dictionaries" is either far too late, or merely a lost cause.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by hhjinks on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:44AM (#35841847)
Simplifying the language, so that non-native speakers can understand it, does not make the text better. That's a wild assertion. Worse yet, Simple English Wikipedia exists for that exact purpose.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by ttiurani on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:51AM (#35848933)
I agree and that's why I referred to "the edited sentences" and not English in general.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by lolinder on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:49AM (#35841890)
With all due respect, if you're not a native English speaker you really aren't in a position to judge what constitutes "better language". I speak fluent Spanish but I wouldn't presume to correct a native Spanish speaker on their style.

I also wouldn't base your opinions of what makes for good English on the ramblings of one Wikipedian whose primary argument seems to be that they had to work hard to learn to use the word a particular way and so everyone else should for the rest of time.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by eynsham on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:20AM (#35842187)
It’s not obvious to me that only native speakers should have the right to pronounce on linguistic changes or the aptness of linguistic use. Some possible arguments, and responses:

1. Non-native speakers lack the competence necessary to make such pronouncements.

It’s false to deny that many non-native speakers acquire near-native competence. So if we think that ordinary native speakers have the right to pronounce on these questions, at least some particularly skilled non-native speakers should too. Perhaps the claim then is that there’s a high standard that only a few native speakers and no non-native speakers reach. It’s unclear what would motivate that view; given that language is something we all use, it is doubtful that e.g. the perspicacity of a particular construction should only be commented upon by the most skilled speakers.

2. Native speakers’ claims to influence languages should have priority over those of non-native speakers.

We might simply view this as obvious, in which case there’s something of a conflict of interest. I think the more plausible argument is grounded in the use of language. Someone who never uses French will not really have particularly important opinions on its use. The problem here is that it’s unclear why native speakers’ intuitions are really more important. The English language is surely just as important to a Nigerian civil servant who operates nearly entirely in English as it is to one in Whitehall. The difference between non-native speakers and native speakers don’t seem relevant unless we take being a native speaker per se to be of import.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by eynsham on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:35AM (#35851382)
I should have said ‘conflict of intuitions’, not ‘interest’; it’s too late to edit now.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by capableweb on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:55AM (#35841953)
> With all due respect, if you're not a native English speaker you really aren't in a position to judge what constitutes "better language"

They said "find the edited sentences always easier to read" and that's valuable regardless if you're a native speaker or not. Of course, what "better language" is as subjective as "clean code" so probably won't reach any consensus there.

But all of this is highly subjective in the end, so everyone's opinion is equally worth, native speaker or not.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by lolinder on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:03AM (#35842035)
I was responding to this:

> I find it just wild that people would object to better language.

They're either saying that their own sense of what is more legible is enough to define what is better, or they're buying into the pedantic arguments in TFA.

As to what is easier to read, I think the English Wikipedia should be written to be legible to native English speakers. This is better for everyone: native English speakers can read their Wikipedia, and English learners get exposed to actual English usage rather than a simplified version.

In this case, it's not obvious to me that any substantial portion of the English-speaking population sincerely gets confused by "comprised of". It feels much more like the insistence on not ending sentences in prepositions: a rule for the sake of having a rule.

EDIT: In fact, "comprised of" recently overtook "comprises" in published books:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22comprised+o...

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by Macha on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:23PM (#35842813)
> This is better for everyone: native English speakers can read their Wikipedia, and English learners get exposed to actual English usage rather than a simplified version

Side note, there is an actual "simplified english" wikipedia. So even early learners who want a simplified resource have one aside from regular Wikipedia. https://simple.wikipedia.org/

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by ttiurani on Sunday May 07, 2023 @04:39AM (#35849242)
For the record, I agree with your criticism. I did generalize my experience without enough justification.

It was a 30 second runaway comment and the latter part clearly doesn't hold up against scrutiny.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by haswell on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:13AM (#35842134)
> But all of this is highly subjective in the end, so everyone's opinion is equally worth, native speaker or not.

That subjectivity doesn’t equate to the equal worth of all opinions. It just means that no one opinion can be considered universal.

That lack of universality doesn’t mean that picking any one direction is as good as picking any other.

If I strongly prefer a Victorian style, giving my preference equal weight is likely to make the content far less valuable, because my preference is not a common one.

It would be necessary to examine the goals of the content: the audience it is intended for, the desired effect on that audience, the nuances lost by preferring audience B over Audience A, the impact of that loss, etc.

Everyone should be allowed to have a preference, absolutely, but applying individual preferences to content does not lead to equivalent outcomes.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by yellowapple on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:07AM (#35842075)
With all due respect, I am a native English speaker and I agree with the GP. I wouldn't go as far as the Wikipedian in question (I surely have far better uses of my time than to make many tens of thousands of edits over a trivial nitpick), but the end result does read better and I'd have a hard time justifying a reversion of such an edit.

Also, considering that plenty of non-native English speakers read the English Wikipedia, there is plenty of value in the English writing in the English Wikipedia being maximally clear without sacrificing the intended meaning of the text. Dismissing feedback out of hand on the basis of "well the person giving the feedback ain't a native English speaker" misses the point of Wikipedia being a resource for everyone.

Broadening this beyond Wikipedia, the English language itself "is comprised of" countless words and grammatical structures yanked straight out of other languages, often by non-native speakers importing features of their native languages for all sorts of reasons. Knowing this history, I hereby authorize non-native speakers to critique the language and elements thereof; it's just as much their language as it is mine, and they therefore have just as much a right to it as I do.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by justin66 on Saturday May 06, 2023 @05:20PM (#35845453)
> but the end result does read better

What tiny fraction of one percent of the edits would you estimate you have actually read?

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by yellowapple on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:38AM (#35849619)
Enough to extrapolate with a reasonable level of confidence.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by pbreit on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:43AM (#35838746)
I read this and googled a bit and don't quite understand what the problem is with "comprised of".

The author says this "The 9th district is comprised of all of Centerville" should be replaced by "The 9th district comprises all of Centerville"? That's it?

Is there some way to see what edits were made?

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by pixelbath on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:11AM (#35852281)
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by Isinlor on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:50AM (#35838798)
Slavic languages do perfectly fine without articles. As Polish speaker I say leave them out ;) .
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by denton-scratch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:32AM (#35842330)
> As Polish speaker I say leave them out

"As Polish speaker, I say leave out"?

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by FabHK on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:52AM (#35838804)
> That's true for many, many other words.

Well, yes, but other words aren’t wrong and irritating to many readers. The point is that the usage in question has several disadvantages, but zero redeeming features.

> "To comprise" and "to be comprised of" contain the same word, but not in the same sense.

That’s not the point. “To shoot” and “to be shot” contain the same word, but mean opposite things, but that’s a well understood result of active vs passive voice, and nobody objects to that. However, imagine some people would start using “to be shot” to mean “to shoot”. So, they’d say “Peter was shot by Paul” to mean that Peter shot Paul, that is, Paul was shot by Peter. And then the dictionary would add that as a secondary meaning. Can’t you see how people might object to that?

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by mock-possum on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:08AM (#35838922)
Well sure it’d be unsettling but like… what, are you just going to stop language from changing? Good luck with that. We’re just along for the ride, if people start using it that way, then that’s what it means now. Objecting to that is about as much use as to be pissed into the wind.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by Nevermark on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:49AM (#35839156)
If language legitimately changes so a sentence or phrase has two opposite yet universally used meanings, (presumably resolved in each instance by context), it would still be better writing to avoid it when clarity of meaning is paramount.

Encyclopedias are a good place to make as few assumptions and gambles as possible with regard to how a reader might comprehend what is written.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by 317070 on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:26AM (#35839060)
Those are just autantonyms, and English has plenty already.

First you dust the cake, then you dust the table.

The castle is impregnable.

And if you add more collocial words, wicked now is good, but also means bad. When a song is cool, you mean it's hot.

People tend to not object to that.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by Jabbles on Saturday May 06, 2023 @04:00AM (#35839209)
I don't think "impregnable" is an autantonym.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by brainwad on Saturday May 06, 2023 @04:17AM (#35839297)
It's presumably the adjective for when something can be impregnated.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by Y_Y on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:44AM (#35841853)
> Your castle is surprised...

(Ross, Act 4, Scene 3, Macbeth)

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by lIl-IIIl on Saturday May 06, 2023 @05:25AM (#35839627)
It is objected to in some writing.

"Inflammable" is taught to be avoided.

So are things that mean opposite things depending on locale, like "tabling" an issue. It may be ok within a local group, but would be avoided in writing inside a multinational corporation.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by prepend on Saturday May 06, 2023 @08:58AM (#35840908)
> It is objected to in some writing.

Everything is objected to, that’s not sufficient for a decision. It’s the reason or volume of objecting.

Just saying there’s some objection is the Twitter fallacy. It could be one person, or even me, or it could be 100% of editors.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by denton-scratch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:24AM (#35842226)
"Wicked" to mean "good" is slang. So is "cool", used in that sense. Slang is not encyclopaedic language.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by JW_00000 on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:32PM (#35844042)
I think auto-antonyms should be avoided in an encyclopedia. (And also in scientific publications, text books, and laws.)
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by hhjinks on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:53AM (#35841935)
I don't see it. The 50 states comprise the United States. The United States is comprised of the 50 states. You can change the word, and the exact same "issues" persist. The 50 states make up the whole of the United States. The whole of the United Sates is made up of the 50 states.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by dwringer on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:03AM (#35842033)
This is the crux of the issue to me - this use of "comprised of" is a completely logical and consistent usage whether or not some people think it's wrong. Plenty of times correct constructions are considered wrong by lots of people, this is what leads to the phenomenon of "hypercorrections". I won't argue that this is necessarily one since the "corrections" don't strike me as better or worse, but languages are inherently subjective. For this reason I find it distasteful to go around enforcing linguistic policies on others.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by yellowapple on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:26AM (#35842257)
Except that, per the article, the "correct" rendering would be "The United States comprises the 50 states" or "The 50 states are comprised by the United States" - because the United States is composed of / contains / includes the 50 states. Therein lies the issue: the word "comprised" is being used opposite from its actual meaning.

There probably ain't much we can realistically do about that, though. Words get misused until they're redefined all the time ("literally" being the popular contemporary example). Such are the joys of English being descriptivist.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by denton-scratch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:20AM (#35842193)
No - "The United States comprises 50 states".
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by Gordonjcp on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:57AM (#35841974)
Peter wasn't shot by Paul, it was John that was shot by Mark, and the whole Paul thing is a hoax.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by mjw_byrne on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:11AM (#35842115)
There are other common examples of active and passive meaning the same thing. "The document is printing" and "the document is being printed", for example. It has no merit other than a popular consensus that it's correct, which is all that's required.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by ezekiel68 on Saturday May 06, 2023 @01:53PM (#35843698)
There is no legal right "not to be irritated". It is incorrect to state that this particular case has "no redeeming features". The fact that the phrase is in common usage is all the justification it needs. What's next, "Won't is not a logical contraction of 'will not'"?
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by htfu on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:00PM (#35853359)
But there's loads of stuff like that. "Take a shot" and "take a bullet" (pretty much covers both ends no less)
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by stOneskull on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:56AM (#35838832)
> Just leave them out, right? "I go house."

the ministry of truth is easier to write as minitrue, yeah.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by ghayes on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:24AM (#35839048)
> > It’s illogical for a word to mean two opposite things.

Auto-antonyms are actually quite common in English.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-antonym

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by jonny_eh on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:27AM (#35839064)
Interesting. I wonder if the word "presently" could count. It can mean both "soon" or "currently".
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by Eisenstein on Saturday May 06, 2023 @09:10PM (#35846886)
Momentarily is similar. Could mean 'for a moment' or 'in a moment'.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by singleshot_ on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:55AM (#35841955)
That's an arguable factoid.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by grammarxcore on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:48AM (#35842503)
One of my favorites is “nonplussed,” because its evolution into two opposite things is both generational and split across British vs North American English.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by two_handfuls on Saturday May 06, 2023 @04:34PM (#35845141)
Parent is still correct about it being illogical though.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by inimino on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:30AM (#35839074)
"impose my preference on everyone else"

By fixing a common mistake on a collaboratively edited encyclopedia? What are you even talking about? Do you have any idea what an editor does at the New York Times?

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by prepend on Saturday May 06, 2023 @09:02AM (#35840949)
But it’s not a mistake to everyone, it’s just a mistake in this person and some others eyes.

But it’s an accepted usage of the words.

I’m not exactly familiar with specific editorial duties, but it seems NYTimes editors allow “comprised of” [0] so they don’t seem to correct all occurrences of “comprised of” by changing text to “composed of.”

[0] https://www.google.com/search?q=%22comprised+of%22+site%3Any...

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by inimino on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:41PM (#35844727)
Yes it's a mistake exactly in the eyes of those who know the meaning of the word. "com" + "prise" = "grasp together". An error can be more common than the correct usage and still be an error.

Would you accept "A table setting is included of plate, fork, knife and spoon." as correct usage? What if "included" becomes rarely used in the future and this incorrect usage becomes relatively popular? Would that make it correct? Nonsense.

The job of an editor is to raise the level of the writing before it goes to print, including fixing common mistakes. A professional writer would just learn something from it and improve. What I'm amazed by is the number of people who seem outraged, like someone's right to freedom of expression is being violated because someone came along after and removed some mistakes and improved the writing, literally a Wikipedia editor just doing the job of an editor. And then a whole essay has to be written justifying it, and that's still not enough, and we are all discussing it even further. It's a remarkable phenomenon.

It makes me wonder if software developers are as defensive about common programming mistakes. If so we might have a bit of a problem.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by dllthomas on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:50PM (#35844794)
> "com" + "prise" = "grasp together".

This is a terrible argument first because etymology is not meaning, but more importantly because "grasp together" doesn't seem to rule out the errant meaning. "This table setting grasps together a plate, a cup, and several pieces of silverware." seems if anything less wrong than "A plate, a cup, and several pieces of flatware grasp together this table setting."

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by inimino on Saturday May 06, 2023 @09:08PM (#35846876)
Your argument is that etymology doesn't matter, but you also make the etymological argument the other way?

Well, ok, but we are not criticizing use of "comprise" but of "comprised of".

This table setting grasps together [three things].

This table setting comprises three things.

This table setting [together grasps] three things.

These are all correct.

*This table setting is grasped of a plate, cup, and flatware.

*This table setting is comprised of a plate, cup and flatware.

*This is grasped-together of a plate, cup, and flatware.

These are all wrong, for the same reason (so it can't be the Oxford comma).

If you wouldn't say it out loud with "comprised of" replaced by "included of", then it's wrong. That's the simple rule.

The backwards version is "The plate, cup, and flatware is comprised of the place setting" means "The plate, cup, and flatware is the total-grasping-together of the place setting."

It becomes clear if you write it this way how awkward it is, and the preposition clearly seems like the wrong one, so this is why the standard advice is just to avoid this confused, clunky phrasing.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by dllthomas on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:50PM (#35847441)
My point was that your argument was bad, not that we should misuse "comprise." So yes, I noted that etymology doesn't matter when determining modern meaning, but went on to point out that even if we assume that it does the argument doesn't hold up, because it's a terrible argument.

You talk a lot here, but none of it actually follows. People write "is comprised of" because they confused it with "is composed of". "Com-pose" means "place together"; doing the same things does not make clear which should be which way 'round.

For the record, I kinda like having a separate word for "makes up" versus "is made up of" and would prefer people stop confusing the two. I just don't think we need garbage arguments in support.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by vehemenz on Saturday May 06, 2023 @05:48PM (#35845629)
> Would that make it correct? Nonsense.

Why not? Plenty of English words evolved this way. What's the problem exactly?

In linguistic terms, "comprised of" in English is commonly accepted and understood, and usage almost always overrides "logic" or other rules and regularities in the language.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by inimino on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @04:22AM (#35885021)
Every time it happens it gets harder for the next generation to read Shakespeare. Just because something has changed a lot is not an argument for changing it more.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by hulitu on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:37AM (#35839110)
Romanes eunt domum was good enough. /s
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by lIl-IIIl on Saturday May 06, 2023 @05:21AM (#35839618)
"I go house" is not standard English. When they said 'There are many other ways to say what the writer means by "comprised of"' it is implied that those other ways are standard English.

>The author could have just written "I don't like 'comprised of', and I'm going to impose my preference on everyone else, even though the term has been part of standard contemporary English for a long time."

But they are not imposing their preference. They are making an improvement that has a consensus and the edit is appreciated by the authors of the text and Wikipedia editors.

Look at the "Reaction to the project" and the barn star awards they got. People whose text was edited to remove "comprised of" thanked this person for their work. Only 1% of the time the edit was reverted. Their work is overwhelmingly viewed as a good thing for Wikipedia.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by adjav on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:28AM (#35842298)
There is no "standard English." There sure as hell isn't a consensus that "comprised of" is incorrect, or it wouldn't have been used over 90k times.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by lIl-IIIl on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:54PM (#35844289)
It is a consensus reached by the Wikipedia editing community, or the edits wouldn't be so overwhelmingly accepted. There are probably more than 90k typos in Wikipedia that doesn't mean they are correct.

"Standard English" is a poor choice of words, but I'm not sure how to describe what "I go house" is. Not grammatically correct English?

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by prepend on Saturday May 06, 2023 @08:53AM (#35840881)
It seems like the editor is just fishing for a reason to make lots of edits and backed into logic so their stuff doesn’t get reverted.

I love wikis and knowledge bases but this is exactly the kind of stuff that detracts.

On one case, who cares what this person does with their time.

On the other case, it wastes the attention of 90k authors who need to figure out whether they care and have their writing style overridden by a rando.

I think the correct way to do this is to appeal to a writing style that gets argued over (sometimes perpetually) and when settled then the 90k edits can be made. This edit would be an argument presented to change the style guide.

Since “comprised of” is proper usage I doubt it would be proscribed in the style guide.

In my org I used to waste minutes of having writings where people expressed preferences for “and” vs “&” or Oxford comma or whether data are plural and edited things back and forth. Then I just found a style guide and adopted it and ask that people not revert changes based on preferences that break the style guide.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by klyrs on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:21AM (#35842201)
> On the other case, it wastes the attention of 90k authors who need to figure out whether they care and have their writing style overridden by a rando.

On the other hand, if you're editing wikipedia and you expect your writing to not be subject to rando edits, you won't last long.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by oezi on Saturday May 06, 2023 @01:36PM (#35843541)
Rando edits by pedantic a*-hats who don't care about the actual topic but their weird crusade. /s
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by tekknik on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:38AM (#35851998)
Why the /s? That was spot on.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by zephrx1111 on Saturday May 06, 2023 @09:09AM (#35841009)
Sorry, but as a non-native English speaker, “compromised of” confuses me more, I guess mostly because I was exposed to the other meaning too much.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by Izkata on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:10PM (#35844440)
"Compromised" and "comprised" are different words.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by soraminazuki on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:37AM (#35841794)
> > It's completely unnecessary. There are many other ways to say what the writer means by "comprised of". It adds nothing to the language.

I wonder if the editor read "1984" and straight up copied its ideas. In the novel, the totalitarian state of Oceania uses that exact same justification to promote the use of the Newspeak language:

> After all, what justification is there for a word which is simply the opposite of some other word? ... Take ‘good’, for instance. If you have a word like ‘good’, what need is there for a word like ‘bad’? ‘Ungood’ will do just as well—better, because it’s an exact opposite, which the other is not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by logicchains on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:44AM (#35841850)
>I wonder if the editor read "1984" and straight up copied its ideas

Maybe George Orwell copied the idea from Esperanto. For instance, "dark" in Esperanto is "notlight", and left is "notright".

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by robswc on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:12AM (#35842126)
I can get behind the "notlight" but "notright"... feels like something my brain would never get used to haha.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by Izkata on Saturday May 06, 2023 @01:59PM (#35843748)
Because based on the words it's composed of, it's different from "left" - it would include "forward" and "backward".

Similarly for "notlight" implying including twilight, which "dark" does not.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by robocat on Saturday May 06, 2023 @04:05PM (#35844920)
> twilight

Perhaps that is lightandnotlight. We almost have notlight in English: unlit. An unlit room feels twilighty to me.

> notright

Left in Esperanto: maldekstra

I can’t imagine why a language designer would choose “mal” as the prefix for “not”. In English and Spanish (two common languages), mal has some bad connotations (malodour, malady, malfeasance, malo, malformed). Let’s try the opposite: “not left” is definitely something different from “right” - urrrgggh. “Do not go left” doesn’t mean to go right.

However it looks like Esperanto also has “liva”. Turnu liven tuj post la angulo ~= Turn left immediately after the corner.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by Izkata on Saturday May 06, 2023 @04:39PM (#35845179)
> I can’t imagine why a language designer would choose “mal” as the prefix for “not”. In English and Spanish (two common languages), mal has some bad connotations (malodour, malady, malfeasance, malo, malformed).

Well, there's also the Latin word "sinister" which has a very different meaning in English... Kinda seems like a common theme.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by robocat on Saturday May 06, 2023 @05:58PM (#35845702)
Literally see maladroit
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by malicka on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:16PM (#35846242)
> Let’s try the opposite: “not left” is definitely something different from “right” - urrrgggh. “Do not go left” doesn’t mean to go right.

“maldekstra” doesn't actually mean “not right” — mal in Esperanto more precisely means “opposite.” Left is opposite of right, and so malmaldekstra (opposite of the opposite of right) is still right (dekstra).

“Not right” in Esperanto doesn't exactly mean left, either, just like in in English. That'd be ne + dekstra = nedesktra.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by robocat on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:39PM (#35856652)
Sure. It just feels like a malicious choice for left. No soy maleducado. !Tengo mucho mano izquirdo, y es derecho mio a decir la palabra “maldekstra” es «malappropriate»¡

http://www.anmal.uma.es/Numero9/Forment.htm

  Joan Bastardas habla de la extrañeza de la existencia de la palabra ensinistrar del catalán, puesto que tiene un significado claramente positivo a pesar de ser derivado de siniestro-a. «... ensinistrar que no deixa de sorprendre els qui s´acosten al català des d´altres llengües romàniques, en què les idees d´habilitat i aptesa s´associen amb la mà dreta i no amb la mà esquerra, el castellà adiestrar, l´italià addestrare; en francès hi ha dexterité, però també en català hi ha destresa i destre-a 'hàbil', 'expert', i també maldestre, com el francès maladroit». (Bastardas 1996: 26)

  la contraposición entre la bondad y la justicia — simbolizados por la derecha — y la maldad, el egoísmo —relacionados con la izquierda—.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by taejo on Monday May 08, 2023 @06:14AM (#35859944)
> However it looks like Esperanto also has “liva”. Turnu liven tuj post la angulo ~= Turn left immediately after the corner.

If you wanted to be understood, it'd be better to say maldekstren though. I'd never heard of liv-, English Wiktionary lists it as "neologism, nonstandard" and Reta Vortaro as "malofte" (infrequent).

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by thomastjeffery on Saturday May 06, 2023 @09:29PM (#35846993)
The word "notright" is as clear of an example as you can get: does it mean straight or left? Up?

The most confoundingly powerful feature of language is ambiguity: on one hand, you can't take it literally; on the other hand, you don't have to.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by joseda-hg on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:19AM (#35851814)
I think the example doesn't quite do it justice, a better interpretation would be antiright, which would be unambiguous
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by TrapLord_Rhodo on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:00PM (#35854469)
in orwellian newspeak, the whole point is to be ambigious so you can't point at harm.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by bdg on Monday May 08, 2023 @02:58AM (#35858870)
If you like that you're gonna love TokiPona. So few words that even basic objects might take a paragraph to explain.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by taejo on Monday May 08, 2023 @06:10AM (#35859919)
Esperanto dekstra only means right, the direction/side, though, and so maldekstra only means left, the direction/side.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by samirillian on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:07AM (#35842067)
I don't agree with your 1984 analogy at all.

A better source might be George Orwell's actual, explicit opinions on politics and the English language:

https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...

Orwell certainly did not take an "anything goes" approach to language, which is essentially what you and others argue for, in the mistaken belief that you're somehow striking a blow at totalitarianism. From my perspective, your position is much closer to the Newspeak ethos than that of someone who actually cares about correct usage.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by giraffe_lady on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:09AM (#35842097)
hey qq who decides what correct is
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by hgsgm on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:20AM (#35842191)
The marketplace of ideas.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by samirillian on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:51AM (#35842545)
Well this guy on Wikipedia, who clearly cares more then you do, for one. Dictionaries, style guides, people like Orwell, the French do have a ministry to maintain the language.

I've answered your question, now I have one for you: Did you even glance at the link?

I'm sorry, these epistemologically relativist arguments lead to utterly absurd conclusions. How does wikipedia work at all? How can we ever make judgements about anything?

It's bad Cartesianism. Just because we can't know something absolutely doesn't mean we can't know anything. Just because language changes doesn't mean there's no such thing as correct and incorrect usage.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by tonnydourado on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:58AM (#35842608)
I don't think anyone is saying that "anything goes" and there's no right or wrong ways of writing, they're just arguing that your narrow definition of "correct" is too narrow to be useful for anything other than gatekeeping.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by samirillian on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:37PM (#35842950)
My main point is only that comparing this to newspeak is totally backwards.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by giraffe_lady on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:34PM (#35842920)
How does wikipedia work? How does language work? Linguists have firmly determined that it does not work by a coterie of elites handing down decisions about correctness, regardless of what france pretends their "immortels" do.

That also doesn't mean "anything goes" either, obviously, since we do clearly speak a mutually comprehensible dialect through no intentional coordination. It's an interesting subject! You could stand to have some curiosity about its actual mechanics, there's a lot to be learned that is invisible to you if you've already decided how it should work.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by samirillian on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:43PM (#35843022)
You literally didn't answer my one question, yet you keep asking more. Even Socrates answered questions when asked.

I could engage your other points, but why bother

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by giraffe_lady on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:26PM (#35843977)
You want me to answer questions like "how do we make judgements about things?" I don't think this is that sort of venue sorry.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by samirillian on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:47PM (#35844199)
Okay now you're just trolling me. The question that starts with "I have a question for you." Did you look at the Orwell link.

> Underneath this lies the half-conscious belief that language is a natural growth and not an instrument which we shape for our own purposes.

Language is indeed consciously shaped. Look at the history of Italian. It doesn't just happen, and Wikipedia definitely doesn't just happen.

And if you disagree with Orwell, fine, just don't trot him out in support of your points. Which was my original point.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by giraffe_lady on Saturday May 06, 2023 @05:00PM (#35845325)
Oh I think you're talking to two different people here, sorry. I never mentioned orwell.
[dead]
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by giraffe_lady on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:27AM (#35850732)
You need to chill. I'm doing my best to engage with your viewpoint within my completely human tolerance of discredited scientific ideas. Like the other commenter said you're doing the language equivalent of endorsing phrenology here and all I can have is imperfect patience for it.

But I'm not trolling you or intentionally fucking with you or anything. You are fundamentally wrong about how language works and maybe what language even is, and you're extremely hostile to genuine attempts to engage with that so I'm gonna take off. Good luck with it.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by samirillian on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:12AM (#35851183)
I get heated about this lol. If you really meant well, I'm not sure what to say. Try reading a comment before responding to it. My original comment was about the validity of an Orwell analogy, a point which you have absolutely refused to engage.

Calling you a troll was my most charitable reading of your obtuseness, because if you weren't willfully so, you must be either unconsciously so, or, well, just bad at reading.

If I'm a phrenologist, so is Orwell, and newspeak is not a valid analogy.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by msla on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:30PM (#35847644)
> Underneath this lies the half-conscious belief that language is a natural growth and not an instrument which we shape for our own purposes.

That's what language is. That's how language works.

I love Orwell, but he was flat wrong in that essay. He was playing at being a linguist and showing his ignorance.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by dragonwriter on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:40PM (#35847711)
> Dictionaries

Dictionaries generally explicitly do not define what is correct, they describe what is in use (often with notes about the contexts of common use).

> style guides

Style guides do not define what is correct for the language, they define what is correct for those adopting the style, they are intentionally by design more limited than what is acceptable in the language to serve, for adopting institutions, the function of providing a common style (that’s why they are called style guides, rather than language guides.)

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by defrost on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:54PM (#35847778)
Noah Webster, of the US Webster's Dictionary was a language reformer and created a prescriptive dictionary intended to "correctly instruct" people about what he believed the correct use and spelling of English to be.

He introduced American spelling and American English.

By constrast the Oxford English Dictionary was created by lexicographers intent on mapping the usage of English across space and time, they created multiple entries for each form | usage of root words and added copious notes (in the full multi volume OED editions) regarding first usage, alternate spellings, regional changes, etc.

The OED is a descriptive dictionary.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by dragonwriter on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:07AM (#35847831)
> Noah Webster, of the US Webster’s Dictionary was a language reformer and created a prescriptive dictionary intended to “correctly instruct” people about what he believed the correct use and spelling of English to be

Yes, he was.

And while some of his reforms caught on and remain in use to this day, his approach to dictionaries generally did not. When I said dictionaries do not do that, the verb tense was significant.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by p-e-w on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:18AM (#35848156)
> Noah Webster [...] created a prescriptive dictionary intended to "correctly instruct" [...]

Webster lived 200 years ago, and today prescriptivism is rejected by the overwhelming majority of linguists, because it's based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what language is. Prescriptivism is about as well supported as phrenology, and shares many of its discriminatory goals. It was something people made up, that turned out to not make any actual sense, and that was subsequently abandoned by almost everyone.

Webster can instruct people on how to correctly write "Webster Language". But he cannot instruct people on how to correctly write English. English is whatever its users say and write. No other sensible definition exists.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by soraminazuki on Saturday May 06, 2023 @04:31PM (#35845124)
> your position is much closer to the Newspeak ethos

I sure haven't stated "my position" in any of my previous comments. But assuming it refers to common english, I'm reminded of another "1984" concept: doublethink.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

Compare this:

> common english is Newspeak

with this:

> War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, and Ignorance is Strength

The similarity is uncanny.

> A better source might be

... the actual book being discussed?

> https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...

Exactly which part of Orwell's opinion did you find relevant to this discussion and how does it relate to yours? This is missing from your comment.

> which is essentially what you and others argue for,

Please don't put words in my or anyone else's mouth to make your point. It's extremely disrespectful.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by fsckboy on Saturday May 06, 2023 @09:23PM (#35846963)
> > War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, and Ignorance is Strength

> The similarity is uncanny.

Is it extremely disrespectful to point out that your previous comment is defending the position that "to comprise is to compose"?

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by soraminazuki on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:14PM (#35847254)
First, my original comment wasn't about defending anything. My objection was limited to a specific justification the Wikipedia editor made.

Second, the phrase is "comprised of," not "to comprise."

Finally, I'd also like to point out that the editor and all people in this thread clearly knows how the phrase is used today. What's the point of arguing about the correctness of a phrase when it does a perfect job of conveying meaning?

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by samirillian on Sunday May 07, 2023 @06:45AM (#35850071)
> What's the point of arguing about the correctness of a phrase when it does a perfect job of conveying meaning?

See this is what I mean when I say that your position is closer to the Newspeak ethos. What's wrong with ungood, after all? It does a perfect job of conveying meaning.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by soraminazuki on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:46AM (#35850915)
See this is what I mean when I say your arguments resemble doublethink.

The Newspeak language eradicates words on the basis that they're redundant. The Wikipedia editor went to eradicate a phrase using the same justification. There's an obvious parallel here.

> It does a perfect job of conveying meaning.

This is a fact that holds true regardless of one's opinion. Yet, you're fallaciously framing this as an opinion to make it look like Oceania and I hold the same opinion.

When it comes to my actual opinion, I favor languages spoken as is. Newspeak, on the others hand, is an artificially restricted one. The false equivalence you made between these two conflicting positions can only be explained as doublethink.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by msla on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:33PM (#35847668)
Orwell wasn't a linguist, so his ideas about language are suspect. Linguists study languages as natural things because that's how it works: Humans speak, humans change how they speak, and language evolves, whereas "Newspeak" was deliberately constructed such that "correctness" was controlled by a tight coterie of people in charge, utterly without regard for making language useful, which you'd know if you read the novel it comes from.

Why people think they're entitled to their own ignorance is quite beyond me.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by samirillian on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:08AM (#35850183)
First of all, I have read 1984, and I wouldn't take issue with the analogy if I hadn't. Whether you have read any other books, I cannot say.

Second, you say Orwell isn't a linguist, and language just happens, but then you explicitly reference his fictional account of a prescribed language. Clearly, Esperanto is a prescribed language. So prescribed languages do exist, and political forces can shape languages, you just don't think that happens with English. Well I do. People reference so-called "descriptive" dictionaries and grammars, yet don't those texts themselves inherently acquire a prescriptive force, insofar as they originate at elite institutions like Oxford and Cambridge and UChicago? Just as Dante's works acquired a prescriptive force for the Italian that was once highly regional, but needed standardization to support the nation-state.

I think descriptivism is an incredibly naive position to take when talking about modern languages that have agglomerated for explicit social, political, and economic projects, and I think that was Orwell's point.

Similar to David Foster Wallace's essay on English, we can either naively push the descriptivist line, or we can accept that "the powers that be" do indeed shape our language, and try to have our own voices heard, for what English ought to be.

So we can rail against the Newspeak that some editor on Wikipedia is supposedly forcing on us. We can say it's literally 1984. It's ungood! And we can happily return to talking about grokking and gatekeeping and unaliving, and undocumented immigrants, and unhoused people, and utilizing the new library, believing these words are good because they happened and that they happened because they're good.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by msla on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:47PM (#35854346)
> Clearly, Esperanto is a prescribed language. So prescribed languages do exist and political forces can shape languages, you just don't think that happens with English.

You're misreading me: I'm saying that English didn't come into existence by fiat, and that it doesn't evolve through fiat most of the time. English, being a natural language as opposed to a constructed one, evolves naturally.

> Well I do. People reference so-called "descriptive" dictionaries and grammars, yet don't those texts themselves inherently acquire a prescriptive force, insofar as they originate at elite institutions like Oxford and Cambridge and UChicago?

That doesn't change the fact they're descriptive. It also doesn't change the fact linguistics is descriptive.

> I think descriptivism is an incredibly naive position to take when talking about modern languages that have agglomerated for explicit social, political, and economic projects, and I think that was Orwell's point.

Well, you can get a degree in linguistics and learn what "descriptivism" actually means, then, because you certainly don't know it now.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by samirillian on Monday May 08, 2023 @07:11AM (#35860293)
Okay, originally I just had to read 1984, to comment on an hn thread, now I need a 4 year linguistics degree. Increasing appeals to authority, when the previous one fails you.

You seem to be arguing that descriptivism is just what linguistics "does", therefore it does not inherently contradict prescriptivism? Because they have two separate roles. And if descriptivists stayed in their lane, and allowed prescription where obviously necessary (like when teaching a language) then we wouldn't be having this argument in the first place.

But if descriptivists turn around and say "therefore thou shalt not prescribe"، then we do have a problem, and descriptivists are indeed naive, they are the real prescribers of an ill-conceived political program.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by VWWHFSfQ on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:53AM (#35841934)
I suspect that this is an obsessive-compulsive thing. So as long as they're not making the articles worse then I say just let them do it if they need to.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by ouid on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:56AM (#35841968)
the justifications in the essay might be poor, but it is sensible to restrict the language of wikipedia to be as unambiguous as possible, given its status as "authoritative on most topics".

For an example in the other direction, wikipedia should ban the word inflammable. Its original meaning, which some authors will definitely prefer (if they are pedants), is entirely the opposite meaning of the colloquial meaning. Should wikipedia pick a meaning for the word, which people are free to ignore, or just outright ban it? (except in etymology wikipedia, where it is an example of a word, rather than part of the explanatory grammar)

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by pclmulqdq on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:13AM (#35842135)
"Comprises" is frequently used in patent writing, but I have rarely seen it elsewhere. I think its use, both in patents and normal English, has a particular connotation, that "is comprised of" doesn't carry otherwise:

* When I hear "X comprises Y and Z," I think that the author is saying that X includes Y and Z as its key parts, but is not precluding the existence of other parts

* When I hear "X is comprised of Y and Z," I think Y and Z are the only parts of X

This might have originally been a misuse of the word "comprise" to mean "compose," but I feel like that's a pretty big distinction in meaning.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by FabHK on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:14AM (#35851206)
Interesting. I think when an author says "X comprises Y and Z”, they assert precisely that Y and Z constitute X, that is, are the only parts of X. Otherwise the author should have written “X contains” or “X includes Y and Z”.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by coding123 on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:29AM (#35842306)
No one is going to fight this person trying to erase a word though.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by devnullbrain on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:30AM (#35842322)
>Note that "The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Collins English Dictionary and the Oxford Dictionaries regard the form comprised of as standard English usage."

I've never found this a convincing argument. Think of when you use a dictionary: it's because you want to understand a word that you don't understand in its context. If it didn't include all uses, the dictionary wouldn't help you. A dictionary a tool to help consume language.

If you want help to produce language, you refer to a style guide. The barrier for acceptability is much higher there.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by sgustard on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:52PM (#35843103)
The most relevant argument is: this is an encyclopedia, its very purpose is to be precise. And words like "comprise" are specifically about defining the meaning and composition of terms. If the encyclopedia is sloppy with words why does it even exist?

Another point: the era of a human doing rote language cleanup is nearly over; surely an LLM can do better?

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by notatoad on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:54PM (#35843120)
you're right that the essay is poorly argued. it all amounts to a whole lot of words saying basically "i don't like it" and trying to claim opinions as fact.

but also, i agree. i don't like it either. so i'm not sure the whole essay is necessary, but i appreciate the work this person is doing to remove the bad writing from wikipedia.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by croisillon on Saturday May 06, 2023 @01:08PM (#35843288)
i don't know if it's illogical but there are a lot of words that mean two opposite things: http://www.fun-with-words.com/nym_autoantonyms.html
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by ezekiel68 on Saturday May 06, 2023 @01:49PM (#35843665)
Exactly. You know what else is completely unnecessary? The Eiffel Tower. Big Ben. The reflecting pool at the Mall in Washington, DC. Ten million other thngs. That something is 'completely unnecessary' is a completely insufficient reason to annihilate it, especially it it has wormed its way into common experience.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by kevinpet on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:37PM (#35844695)
Forgive me if I decline to take writing advice from someone who tells me "I go house" is meaningful English. It isn't. It's violates the rules of grammar, rules which are a description of the normal English as used by members of the English speaking community. English expects you to specify whether you go into, towards, around, out of, or through the window of a house, or the house that we already know we are talking about, or Joe's house.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by dmonitor on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:47PM (#35844780)
just wait until they learn about the etymology of awful and awesome. both come from the word awe, but mean completely opposite things.