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Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by samirillian on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:51AM (#35842545)
Well this guy on Wikipedia, who clearly cares more then you do, for one. Dictionaries, style guides, people like Orwell, the French do have a ministry to maintain the language.

I've answered your question, now I have one for you: Did you even glance at the link?

I'm sorry, these epistemologically relativist arguments lead to utterly absurd conclusions. How does wikipedia work at all? How can we ever make judgements about anything?

It's bad Cartesianism. Just because we can't know something absolutely doesn't mean we can't know anything. Just because language changes doesn't mean there's no such thing as correct and incorrect usage.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by tonnydourado on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:58AM (#35842608)
I don't think anyone is saying that "anything goes" and there's no right or wrong ways of writing, they're just arguing that your narrow definition of "correct" is too narrow to be useful for anything other than gatekeeping.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by samirillian on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:37PM (#35842950)
My main point is only that comparing this to newspeak is totally backwards.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by giraffe_lady on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:34PM (#35842920)
How does wikipedia work? How does language work? Linguists have firmly determined that it does not work by a coterie of elites handing down decisions about correctness, regardless of what france pretends their "immortels" do.

That also doesn't mean "anything goes" either, obviously, since we do clearly speak a mutually comprehensible dialect through no intentional coordination. It's an interesting subject! You could stand to have some curiosity about its actual mechanics, there's a lot to be learned that is invisible to you if you've already decided how it should work.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by samirillian on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:43PM (#35843022)
You literally didn't answer my one question, yet you keep asking more. Even Socrates answered questions when asked.

I could engage your other points, but why bother

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by giraffe_lady on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:26PM (#35843977)
You want me to answer questions like "how do we make judgements about things?" I don't think this is that sort of venue sorry.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by samirillian on Saturday May 06, 2023 @02:47PM (#35844199)
Okay now you're just trolling me. The question that starts with "I have a question for you." Did you look at the Orwell link.

> Underneath this lies the half-conscious belief that language is a natural growth and not an instrument which we shape for our own purposes.

Language is indeed consciously shaped. Look at the history of Italian. It doesn't just happen, and Wikipedia definitely doesn't just happen.

And if you disagree with Orwell, fine, just don't trot him out in support of your points. Which was my original point.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by giraffe_lady on Saturday May 06, 2023 @05:00PM (#35845325)
Oh I think you're talking to two different people here, sorry. I never mentioned orwell.
[dead]
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by giraffe_lady on Sunday May 07, 2023 @08:27AM (#35850732)
You need to chill. I'm doing my best to engage with your viewpoint within my completely human tolerance of discredited scientific ideas. Like the other commenter said you're doing the language equivalent of endorsing phrenology here and all I can have is imperfect patience for it.

But I'm not trolling you or intentionally fucking with you or anything. You are fundamentally wrong about how language works and maybe what language even is, and you're extremely hostile to genuine attempts to engage with that so I'm gonna take off. Good luck with it.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by samirillian on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:12AM (#35851183)
I get heated about this lol. If you really meant well, I'm not sure what to say. Try reading a comment before responding to it. My original comment was about the validity of an Orwell analogy, a point which you have absolutely refused to engage.

Calling you a troll was my most charitable reading of your obtuseness, because if you weren't willfully so, you must be either unconsciously so, or, well, just bad at reading.

If I'm a phrenologist, so is Orwell, and newspeak is not a valid analogy.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by msla on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:30PM (#35847644)
> Underneath this lies the half-conscious belief that language is a natural growth and not an instrument which we shape for our own purposes.

That's what language is. That's how language works.

I love Orwell, but he was flat wrong in that essay. He was playing at being a linguist and showing his ignorance.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by dragonwriter on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:40PM (#35847711)
> Dictionaries

Dictionaries generally explicitly do not define what is correct, they describe what is in use (often with notes about the contexts of common use).

> style guides

Style guides do not define what is correct for the language, they define what is correct for those adopting the style, they are intentionally by design more limited than what is acceptable in the language to serve, for adopting institutions, the function of providing a common style (that’s why they are called style guides, rather than language guides.)

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by defrost on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:54PM (#35847778)
Noah Webster, of the US Webster's Dictionary was a language reformer and created a prescriptive dictionary intended to "correctly instruct" people about what he believed the correct use and spelling of English to be.

He introduced American spelling and American English.

By constrast the Oxford English Dictionary was created by lexicographers intent on mapping the usage of English across space and time, they created multiple entries for each form | usage of root words and added copious notes (in the full multi volume OED editions) regarding first usage, alternate spellings, regional changes, etc.

The OED is a descriptive dictionary.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by dragonwriter on Sunday May 07, 2023 @12:07AM (#35847831)
> Noah Webster, of the US Webster’s Dictionary was a language reformer and created a prescriptive dictionary intended to “correctly instruct” people about what he believed the correct use and spelling of English to be

Yes, he was.

And while some of his reforms caught on and remain in use to this day, his approach to dictionaries generally did not. When I said dictionaries do not do that, the verb tense was significant.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by p-e-w on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:18AM (#35848156)
> Noah Webster [...] created a prescriptive dictionary intended to "correctly instruct" [...]

Webster lived 200 years ago, and today prescriptivism is rejected by the overwhelming majority of linguists, because it's based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what language is. Prescriptivism is about as well supported as phrenology, and shares many of its discriminatory goals. It was something people made up, that turned out to not make any actual sense, and that was subsequently abandoned by almost everyone.

Webster can instruct people on how to correctly write "Webster Language". But he cannot instruct people on how to correctly write English. English is whatever its users say and write. No other sensible definition exists.