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Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by lolinder on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:49AM (#35841890)
With all due respect, if you're not a native English speaker you really aren't in a position to judge what constitutes "better language". I speak fluent Spanish but I wouldn't presume to correct a native Spanish speaker on their style.

I also wouldn't base your opinions of what makes for good English on the ramblings of one Wikipedian whose primary argument seems to be that they had to work hard to learn to use the word a particular way and so everyone else should for the rest of time.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by eynsham on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:20AM (#35842187)
It’s not obvious to me that only native speakers should have the right to pronounce on linguistic changes or the aptness of linguistic use. Some possible arguments, and responses:

1. Non-native speakers lack the competence necessary to make such pronouncements.

It’s false to deny that many non-native speakers acquire near-native competence. So if we think that ordinary native speakers have the right to pronounce on these questions, at least some particularly skilled non-native speakers should too. Perhaps the claim then is that there’s a high standard that only a few native speakers and no non-native speakers reach. It’s unclear what would motivate that view; given that language is something we all use, it is doubtful that e.g. the perspicacity of a particular construction should only be commented upon by the most skilled speakers.

2. Native speakers’ claims to influence languages should have priority over those of non-native speakers.

We might simply view this as obvious, in which case there’s something of a conflict of interest. I think the more plausible argument is grounded in the use of language. Someone who never uses French will not really have particularly important opinions on its use. The problem here is that it’s unclear why native speakers’ intuitions are really more important. The English language is surely just as important to a Nigerian civil servant who operates nearly entirely in English as it is to one in Whitehall. The difference between non-native speakers and native speakers don’t seem relevant unless we take being a native speaker per se to be of import.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by eynsham on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:35AM (#35851382)
I should have said ‘conflict of intuitions’, not ‘interest’; it’s too late to edit now.
Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by capableweb on Saturday May 06, 2023 @10:55AM (#35841953)
> With all due respect, if you're not a native English speaker you really aren't in a position to judge what constitutes "better language"

They said "find the edited sentences always easier to read" and that's valuable regardless if you're a native speaker or not. Of course, what "better language" is as subjective as "clean code" so probably won't reach any consensus there.

But all of this is highly subjective in the end, so everyone's opinion is equally worth, native speaker or not.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by lolinder on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:03AM (#35842035)
I was responding to this:

> I find it just wild that people would object to better language.

They're either saying that their own sense of what is more legible is enough to define what is better, or they're buying into the pedantic arguments in TFA.

As to what is easier to read, I think the English Wikipedia should be written to be legible to native English speakers. This is better for everyone: native English speakers can read their Wikipedia, and English learners get exposed to actual English usage rather than a simplified version.

In this case, it's not obvious to me that any substantial portion of the English-speaking population sincerely gets confused by "comprised of". It feels much more like the insistence on not ending sentences in prepositions: a rule for the sake of having a rule.

EDIT: In fact, "comprised of" recently overtook "comprises" in published books:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22comprised+o...

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by Macha on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:23PM (#35842813)
> This is better for everyone: native English speakers can read their Wikipedia, and English learners get exposed to actual English usage rather than a simplified version

Side note, there is an actual "simplified english" wikipedia. So even early learners who want a simplified resource have one aside from regular Wikipedia. https://simple.wikipedia.org/

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by ttiurani on Sunday May 07, 2023 @04:39AM (#35849242)
For the record, I agree with your criticism. I did generalize my experience without enough justification.

It was a 30 second runaway comment and the latter part clearly doesn't hold up against scrutiny.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by haswell on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:13AM (#35842134)
> But all of this is highly subjective in the end, so everyone's opinion is equally worth, native speaker or not.

That subjectivity doesn’t equate to the equal worth of all opinions. It just means that no one opinion can be considered universal.

That lack of universality doesn’t mean that picking any one direction is as good as picking any other.

If I strongly prefer a Victorian style, giving my preference equal weight is likely to make the content far less valuable, because my preference is not a common one.

It would be necessary to examine the goals of the content: the audience it is intended for, the desired effect on that audience, the nuances lost by preferring audience B over Audience A, the impact of that loss, etc.

Everyone should be allowed to have a preference, absolutely, but applying individual preferences to content does not lead to equivalent outcomes.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by yellowapple on Saturday May 06, 2023 @11:07AM (#35842075)
With all due respect, I am a native English speaker and I agree with the GP. I wouldn't go as far as the Wikipedian in question (I surely have far better uses of my time than to make many tens of thousands of edits over a trivial nitpick), but the end result does read better and I'd have a hard time justifying a reversion of such an edit.

Also, considering that plenty of non-native English speakers read the English Wikipedia, there is plenty of value in the English writing in the English Wikipedia being maximally clear without sacrificing the intended meaning of the text. Dismissing feedback out of hand on the basis of "well the person giving the feedback ain't a native English speaker" misses the point of Wikipedia being a resource for everyone.

Broadening this beyond Wikipedia, the English language itself "is comprised of" countless words and grammatical structures yanked straight out of other languages, often by non-native speakers importing features of their native languages for all sorts of reasons. Knowing this history, I hereby authorize non-native speakers to critique the language and elements thereof; it's just as much their language as it is mine, and they therefore have just as much a right to it as I do.

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by justin66 on Saturday May 06, 2023 @05:20PM (#35845453)
> but the end result does read better

What tiny fraction of one percent of the edits would you estimate you have actually read?

Re:Wikipedia users edits over 90k uses of “comprised of” by yellowapple on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:38AM (#35849619)
Enough to extrapolate with a reasonable level of confidence.