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Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by ekofish on Thursday October 13, 2022 @11:45AM (#33192584)
I work at an HR/Payroll company with a phenomenal app that we put our blood, sweat, and tears into every single day. And every single day I clock in with Oracle Time and Labor. There's a legal reason for this and we do it for compliance. I'm guessing Stripe is in the same boat with this product despite its flaws.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by slekker on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:05PM (#33192887)
What's the legal reason?
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by MichaelCollins on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:37PM (#33193362)
If the system happened to break in a way that was opportune for the employer but ripped off the employee, it's better to point fingers at Oracle than your own company.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by Pet_Ant on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:45PM (#33193474)
So limiting liability.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by marcosdumay on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:52PM (#33193566)
Limiting the cases of conflict of interests.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by nulbyte on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:50PM (#33193534)
Doesn't the company face the same risk with its clients?
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by MichaelCollins on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:57PM (#33193647)
The risk is the appearance that the company was deliberately ripping off employees. When the employer has created their own labor tracking software, it's easier for mistakes to look deliberate.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by connicpu on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:57PM (#33193649)
It's easier to convince others that it was a genuine mistake when you didn't personally profit from the mistake
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by culturestate on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:00PM (#33193678)
Corporate liability to customers and corporate liability to employees are two very different things.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by Merad on Thursday October 13, 2022 @05:03PM (#33196464)
Maybe not a legal reason per se, but even if you have production data access appropriately locked down there will be some people who hold the keys to the kingdom. There's a lot more risk of people peeking at things they aren't supposed to when the data in question is about their own company, friends, coworkers.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by reaperducer on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:01PM (#33192845)
The company where I work disallows us from using our own product because it would be considered a conflict of interest. Some co-workers say it's a federal regulation, but I've never seen that anywhere in print, so I suspect it's just a workplace rumor/justification.

I've had customers complain to my face that we tailor the products to our needs, and are surprised (and sometimes vocally disbelieve) that we don't use it, ourselves.

In certain industries, dogfooding is considered bad, and sometimes illegal.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by willio58 on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:19PM (#33193102)
Yeah most of the time I hear conflict of interest I don’t believe it at this point. Conflict of whose interest? If you used your own product wouldn’t you learn some issues that exist within it?
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by randomdata on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:29PM (#33193243)
> If you used your own product wouldn’t you learn some issues that exist within it?

Isn't that the worry? Say a bug in your timekeeping software underreported hours worked and that lead to workers not being paid their agreed upon rate. When it goes to court you now have to prove that you didn't maliciously introduce the bug to save on employment costs, whereas if it is a third-party providing the software it's their problem. "Conflict of interest" is ultimately just another way to say "I don't want to assume the liability when things go sour". Nobody cares about conflict of interest when things go right.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by duckmysick on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:35PM (#33193347)
Can I see the files of an example case where something like that happened?
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by randomdata on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:38PM (#33193384)
If it happened then one would claim that they have a legal onus. Conflict of interest is speculative about an unforeseen future.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by duckmysick on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:50PM (#33193533)
I'm not familiar with that definition. On the other hand, the Department of Defense explicitly says it happens "if the particular matter will have a direct and predictable effect on that interest". Predictable being "a real, as opposed to speculative possibility, that the matter will affect the financial interest".

https://dodsoco.ogc.osd.mil/Conflicts-of-Interest/

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by randomdata on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:53PM (#33193583)
The topic is centred around off-hand remarks made by someone as to why they aren't doing something (such as using their own product) and how, as pointed out by willio58, "conflict of interest" is used where there is no actual demonstration of conflict of interest. We're not talking about military rigor, as interesting as that subject may also be.

Again, "conflict of interest" is what people often say when they don't know if it will affect them, but don't want to take the risk. "Regulation requires it", as illustrated in the first comment, is what people say when caselaw actually demonstrates that they would be liable.

The fun thing about language is that it is fluid and can take many forms.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by marcosdumay on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:06PM (#33193747)
>"Conflict of interest" is ultimately just another way to say "I don't want to assume the liability when things go sour".

No, it's not.

It's "malice is not a reasonable explanation for things going wrong". It only changes liability when it follows malice, what is much rarer than you seem to think.

It is also a way to assure people that you won't do something bad.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by dexterdog on Thursday October 13, 2022 @08:49PM (#33198412)
And if you don't also use competing products you won't have intimate knowledge about what options are out there.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by mattkrause on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:20PM (#33193118)
Conflict of whose interests? You say the product is useful and other people should buy it, while you yourself use it seems pretty aligned.

It cannot possibly be the case that Microsoft runs on Open Office and MacBooks.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by Turing_Machine on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:23PM (#33193150)
For a long, long time Microsoft was using Unix sendmail for its own internal mail system, while touting Outlook for its customers.

They only started eating their own dog food when people started making fun of them in public.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by tiffanyh on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:29PM (#33193244)
Twilio is the same.

They use Zoom & Slack internally, not their own video and chat offerings.

Dogfooding is a good thing.

You’d be surprised how few companies actually do it.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by Thaxll on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:38PM (#33193378)
This sounds terrible, it shows a lack of confidence in your own product, imagine if Google internally would use Zoom...

I can tell you that devs that use their own product deliver better quality.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by dghlsakjg on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:43PM (#33193454)
The sound quality and filtering on Zoom is noticeably better than on Meets.

Perhaps you also need to use the product that your competitors use to understand what you need to beat.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by Thaxll on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:47PM (#33193505)
For testing and strategy maybe not for day to day use.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by airstrike on Thursday October 13, 2022 @02:53PM (#33194947)
Maybe alternate between the leading product and your own so you can experience the same pain users do when they are forced to use the inferior choice after becoming accustomed to best-in-class.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by neurostimulant on Thursday October 13, 2022 @02:55PM (#33194984)
I'm sure Google Meets works flawlessly at Google's office (presumably a short hop away to their data centers via dedicated fiber optics link).
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by lazide on Thursday October 13, 2022 @03:07PM (#33195122)
Google has invested heavily in sound management in their rooms, and issued noise cancelling headphones to everyone awhile back they got to take home. That might explain some things.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by mcqueenjordan on Thursday October 13, 2022 @09:47PM (#33198737)
But isn't Google Meet's background noise cancellation far superior to that of Zoom's? Or maybe I misunderstood your comment.

EDIT: I see above that others have claimed the opposite, but my experience has been different. I simply cannot take a call from a cafe in Zoom without complaints, but Meets is regularly tolerable, according to those I meet with.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by jhugo on Thursday October 13, 2022 @11:10PM (#33199211)
If you use Zoom & Google Meet in the browser, the audio processing is likely pretty much the same (most of the filtering is built-in to the WebRTC stack). Zoom's native app has noticeably worse audio, but pretty much everything about it is worse anyway — it's just a pity you have to click through the "download the app" dark pattern to get to their better browser experience.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by marcosdumay on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:51PM (#33193546)
Well, optimally you would want to use both yours and your competitors' products.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by SaltySolomon on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:58PM (#33193657)
I mean, it also creates a circular dependency, if you have an issue with your own product and trying to fix it then you can suddenly not communicate.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by grensley on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:34PM (#33194098)
The Facebook outage last year being a great example of this. They lost basically all internal communications.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by throwaway2037 on Thursday October 13, 2022 @09:04PM (#33198499)
Is there a public write-up or blog post about it? It sounds interesting to read about!
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by grensley on Friday October 14, 2022 @01:21AM (#33199926)
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by mattnewton on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:10PM (#33193801)
That’s why SRE teams at companies I have been at always keep an IRC server hosted separately from all their other infra.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by sjtgraham on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:06PM (#33193749)
Then why does Google Meet suck?
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by cachvico on Thursday October 13, 2022 @05:55PM (#33196969)
This is a good question. Does Google use Meet? Are they still subject to the frankly ridiculous max resolution of 720p?
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by throwaway5752 on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:44PM (#33193469)
"Dogfooding is a good thing"

That gets repeated a lot but I have observed the opposite when you have a diversified company dogfooding an internal product that isn't strategic in their portfolio, or is targeted at a market segment that the company doesn't belong to. I have seen companies hamstring themselves by using a product that isn't the best offering for them or a poor technical fit, only because it is their own offering. Also, in the worst case, companies become develop tunnel vision in the market, because they don't regularly use the competition.

If you have a large, international software company targeting small to medium business customers in the US, dogfooding would be counterproductive. It would probably harm their strategic customer base by overcomplicating their product with features they don't need at the same time it slows the parent company down by using a product that's poor fit.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by crazygringo on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:00PM (#33193675)
Yup.

The idea behind dogfooding is that you get more/better feedback and more internal pressure to fix problems.

But the product team should already be getting feedback from a diverse set of customers. And if they're not, that's what needs to be fixed.

Dogfooding can also result in overprioritizing only your own company's product needs, and at worst the ultra specific issues that one particularly vocal VP is having, to the detriment of the overall customer base. (I've seen it happen way too many times.)

Companies should use the best tools for the job, not necessarily the ones they make themselves. If those are the same, then great. If not, then also great.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by pseudostem on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:55PM (#33193611)
Fanboy Alert! (I may be biased).

Not a company, but OpenBSD dogfoods exclusively. And they do deliver a good product.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by throwaway5752 on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:01PM (#33193700)
OpenBSD sure does - also a fan - and dogfooding can be a really good thing. But one has to approach it critically and sensibly.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by ridgered4 on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:59PM (#33194365)
Also if your product is adware, full of dark patterns or generally hot garbage it might be really frustrating to use!
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by cpeterso on Thursday October 13, 2022 @03:41PM (#33195584)
Like the Twitter employee who bragged that Twitter employees can turn off ads in their personal accounts.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by umvi on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:48PM (#33193516)
In the case of GP he is saying they want to dogfood their product but cannot due to legal reasons.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by bombcar on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:49PM (#33193530)
It makes sense to me - if Twilio undergoes a massive outage, do you want them to be unable to communicate as they try to fix it? So they use Zoom and Slack.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by antihero on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:50PM (#33193545)
Just have that stuff as a backup?
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by bombcar on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:53PM (#33193573)
That can also work - but backups that aren't used can atrophy - and market segments could mean that what "works" for the company isn't what the company is selling.

It might be a goal to move everything internal (I believe Google is now using Google Apps internally, but they didn't for awhile, even after other businesses were).

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by bnt on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:09PM (#33193787)
Email? “Massive outage” for Twilio would bring down a lot of products, they would have to be back up in minutes.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by loriverkutya on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:01PM (#33193693)
They could use staging. Or the solution they have in place in case they have a video conference system outage while they are fixing their own outage.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by juliansimioni on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:08PM (#33193773)
Dogfooding can often be a good thing but not if your target customer is a very different type of business than your own.

For example, Stripe is a _very_ large company but their product is geared mostly towards small and medium size businesses.

It's very possible that in the process of making Stripe Billing work for Stripe, they'd make it work less well for their actual customers.

It's the same reason why Intuit probably doesn't use QuickBooks to do their accounting.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by spartanatreyu on Thursday October 13, 2022 @07:44PM (#33197936)
^ This.

When dogfooding, you have to be very careful that you don't end up in a bubble and only see your own needs as the priority.

There's a propensity for developers to start using their own products then changing it to suit themselves thinking that the regular users use the same product the same way. You end up with this mismatch of expectations and it can even get so bad that the developers don't believe the users who tell them that things need to change.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by jmacd on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:27PM (#33194006)
AWS is the opposite. That f$#$ing Chime app that they all use... has actually gotten pretty good over the last few years.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by twstdzppr on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:29PM (#33194032)
There's got to be a better term than "dogfooding"
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by nsxwolf on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:34PM (#33194103)
"Use your own product" was too simple and direct.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by Dylan16807 on Thursday October 13, 2022 @03:40PM (#33195571)
"Using your/their own product" is six syllables.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by simianpirate on Thursday October 13, 2022 @03:21PM (#33195328)
A salesperson that I worked closely with like to use: “Drinking our own champagne.” I liked it enough I started using it though the engineer in me tends to be fine with “dogfooding”.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by phyzome on Thursday October 13, 2022 @07:25PM (#33197801)
Why? Keeps you humble.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by twstdzppr on Thursday October 13, 2022 @10:08PM (#33198845)
Fine, fine. But I'm going with 'Cat-Chowing' instead.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by duxup on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:38PM (#33194141)
Dogfooding is a good thing.

However, I find it can get tiresome / has potential compilations.

Customer's can be terrible with incomplete, bad idea, and nonsensical requests. But sometimes internally you get the worst "Someone spilled some words into email that don't sense / no you don't actually want that / bro this is accounting software not Photoshop." situations that folks who are more familiar with the origination might make, but customer's might not make.

It takes an extra level of internal discipline to deal with dogfooding side effects at times IMO. Still, a good idea none the less.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by hnlmorg on Thursday October 13, 2022 @05:43PM (#33196853)
I’m definitely in favour of dogfooding. But it’s worth noting that there is still a positive flip side to using competitors products:

+ you get to keep up with their advances so you’re not relying on your customers telling you about your competition

+ in the case of chat apps, if your infrastructure goes down you can still work as a team to coordinate the remediation

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by lostgame on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:41PM (#33193433)
I'm working on the iOS/WatchOS app(s) for a major bank, and fortunately of course most of our staff uses it; too - because of course we bank with the bank we work for. (There's tangible benefits to a staff account, even those who have accounts elsewhere I'm willing to bet still do their primary banking with us.)

I've actually had an instance or two over my four years there where I discovered a bug in our PROD/App Store version myself; simply from using the software enough.

It's really unfortunate that this isn't the case for a lot of dev shops. Dogfooding is incredibly important to QA.

Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by thedangler on Thursday October 13, 2022 @12:54PM (#33193596)
What HR payroll ?
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by throwayyy479087 on Thursday October 13, 2022 @01:07PM (#33193757)
Oscar is the same. They no longer offer Oscar insurance to their employees. It's a liability to mandate that your coworkers information is stored in Production and accessed by Client Services.
Re:Why doesn't Stripe use Stripe Billing? by throwaway2037 on Thursday October 13, 2022 @09:02PM (#33198493)
It is strange that you did not name the company. Other people here might want to learn about your product.