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Re:iPhones and action discoverability by crazygringo on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:28PM (#32965815)
It's funny how I've witnessed a complete 180° change from how, in the 1990's, software was supposed to be entirely discoverable and it also came with a manual that documented literally everything, to now there's a ton that's hidden, often without any manual whatsoever... but you can Google everything you need to know.

Probably the single most useful skill I've had to learn in my life is, whenever you wonder something, just Google it. If you don't think your software does X... don't just assume it. Look it up.

I've been astonished at how often a feature was added 3 years ago to a program I've used for 8 years, or there's a secret swipe that avoids a bunch of menus, or an unofficial command-line flag.

And it really leaves me feeling deeply conflicted. Because on the one hand, I still believe in the virtue of learning your tools inside and out. I would read the manual and be proud I knew exactly what every program/language could and couldn't do. But on the other hand, is that really just a waste of time? Programs have so many features now, that instead of learning all the things via discoverability or a manual, we just learn them by... querying how to do things when we need them.

I don't really like the idea of so fundamentally relying on Google and forums and tutorials and Reddit and YouTube videos as the main way of learning how to use software. But at the same time, software does so much now and adds new things so quickly that it appears to be the only reasonable way.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by layer8 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:48PM (#32966002)
> we just learn them by... querying how to do things when we need them.

The problem with this is that you don’t learn any new features that you wouldn’t have come up with on your own.

I loved reading the well-written manuals and “on-line” (integrated into the software) help of the 90s (and 80s) that explained all the concepts and features of the particular software. You’d learn a ton of new ideas and possibilities. It was really fun and exciting, and it gave you the perception of a well-designed and well thought-out whole. You built up a consistent mental model of the software, and you thus ended up with the feeling of mastery and control over the software.

Nowadays it feels more like poking the software with a stick in an attempt to build a mental model and discover its capabilities by trial and error, often remaining in doubt about the actual intent of how exactly things are supposed to work.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by culi on Saturday September 24, 2022 @06:57PM (#32967332)
As annoying as they can sometimes be, the little tips that pop up every now with "Hey did you know you can do this?" are a neat little solution to this. Really like the unobtrusive ones like the GitHub "ProTip!" at the bottom of the pull requests page

It does get a bit ridiculous though. There's entire sites and content creators focused solely on VS Code tips. At what point are we gonna end up with engineers working on adding a feature to VS Code that they didn't know already existed?

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by layer8 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @07:13PM (#32967454)
The tips aren’t really a solution to this, because they don’t give you a general introduction and big-picture explanations about the system as a whole, and about the individual features in context. They are useful to inform you about the presence of a new feature when you’re already familiar with the software overall. Even then, they don’t go into any depth about the various aspects of the feature and how it interacts with other features and in different configurations, etc. In a good manual, you would get a whole short (or long) chapter about the feature.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by rchaud on Sunday September 25, 2022 @10:26AM (#32971635)
> the little tips that pop up every now with "Hey did you know you can do this?"

I don't think those have ever come up at the right time, usually only when I'm halwfway in the middle of an action, and not in the headspace for a tutorial or tip.

And that tiny little tooltip, that offers no screenshot or example gif isn't going to get me to learn.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by xen2xen1 on Sunday September 25, 2022 @07:38PM (#32977625)
Sounds like clippy. No thanks. Maybe something that was available when you wanted it, but that's not it..
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by philippejara on Saturday September 24, 2022 @07:01PM (#32967367)
does vscode not have something akin to the apropos command from emacs? that tends to help quite a bit
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by alsetmusic on Saturday September 24, 2022 @07:31PM (#32967549)
I swiped up to dismiss the Safari browser on my iPhone this morning and accidentally invoked a half-hight bookmarks view. I wasn’t sure if it’s a new gesture in iOS 16 or if it’s been there for a while. I wasn’t able to reproduce it and a brief web search didn’t find mention of it in the first few hits. I didn’t really care, so I gave up looking.

If anyone knows how to invoke this feature, I’d love to know. Just not enough to try to find out from checking more than about three search results. Anyway, ahhh discoverability. I remember you…

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by month13 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @11:36PM (#32968713)
A related story, shortly after upgrading to the new iPHone. I noticed while driving I got a big album art preview on the Lock Screen while I was driving. However, after customising my Lock Screen it’s gone back to the small activity preview. I have tried a few changes to back, but no dice. New versions of iOS have been successively making the album art smaller and smaller, and i thought this was a return to form, but I guess it must’ve been a bug.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by nmlt on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:20AM (#32968925)
Just press on the small album art, then it’s big again.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by yencabulator on Sunday September 25, 2022 @05:08PM (#32976249)
I can't decide which is worse, undiscoverable software or software that always changes its behavior from what you just learned.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by Uupis on Saturday September 24, 2022 @08:39PM (#32967928)
I believe the bookmarks panel just defaults to half-height now. You can pull it up to fill the screen, but otherwise — tapping the button opens it at half-height for me.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by tinus_hn on Sunday September 25, 2022 @08:29AM (#32970698)
It’s resizable by dragging the top of the drawer.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by saagarjha on Saturday September 24, 2022 @08:44PM (#32967949)
You tapped the button that looks like a book, I'm guessing? It's full height in the "address bar at the top" design.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by marcianx on Sunday September 25, 2022 @01:11AM (#32969109)
Haha, yes! I'm a software engineer and it took me a decade of smartphone usage before I realized that long-pressing various keys (e.g. vowels, symbols) shows a pop-up allowing you to enter related characters (e.g. á, æ, ¡, ₹, ±, ·, ½, ²)†. Blew my tiny little mind! If I were using a language that required the variants menu in its native keyboard layout, I might have discovered this a decade before by explicitly searching for how to enter certain characters.

† Typed these on mobile, of course. Android, in case you're wondering.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by Adverblessly on Sunday September 25, 2022 @05:59AM (#32970086)
Maybe related to being a SWE myself, but usually the first thing I do with any piece of software is go to the settings. If you do that with the Google Keyboard you'll see "Preferences -> Long press for symbols".

If you enable that, each key on the keyboard now shows an additional symbol you can get to by long press, for example, 'a' now also allows you to type '@'. If you try and long press for 'a' you'll suddenly see that accented versions of 'a' are also available. And that's the story of how I "naturally" discovered that same feature.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by vanviegen on Sunday September 25, 2022 @02:08AM (#32969317)
If I remember correctly, early Android versions (or it could have been HTC specific) had a tutorial for this, as part of the new phone setup process. I guess they removed it when most buyers owned a smartphone before.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by Tijdreiziger on Sunday September 25, 2022 @07:40AM (#32970470)
Around the time of the first iPhone, Apple also had a long video on their website (it must have been 30-60 minutes) meticulously going through and explaining every feature of the iPhone. No idea if something like that still exists.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by thih9 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:41PM (#32966378)
I feel like I’m reading more manuals than ever. Libraries, CLI tools and other specialized software have well written and very useful docs. Same with pro camera software, music gear software, and more.

For “consumer” software I usually don’t need manuals, I can find what I need via poking; this often includes power user features (when I use something sufficiently often).

Is it possible that what you’re feeling is nostalgia? Have you actually read the manual for your phone?

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by layer8 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:47PM (#32966421)
> Have you actually read the manual for your phone?

I have, and it’s abysmal, because it doesn’t make any attempt at explaining anything on a conceptual level, or even explaining basic UI elements. It doesn’t teach you how to interpret what you see on the screen. It does the bare minimum of enumerating the steps to activate a given feature, presuming that you are able to match those descriptions to what you see on the screen (there are barely any screenshots) and that you know why you would want to use that feature in the first place. It also doesn’t address any failure modes, and doesn’t discuss relevant considerations regarding the use of the given feature.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by teddyh on Saturday September 24, 2022 @06:10PM (#32966991)
There was a book series called “The Missing Manual – The book that should have been in the box®”:

https://www.oreilly.com/search/?query=missing+manual&formats...

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by thih9 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @05:27PM (#32966670)
I see your point better now, thanks for explaining. That makes sense.

Then again, today’s smartphone operating systems are as popular as home appliances in the 90s.

Maybe if we took something modern that is as niche as software in the 90s then it might come with a manual with a mental model too.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by layer8 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @05:41PM (#32966770)
Home appliances also used to come with detailed and easy-to-understand manuals, and mostly don’t anymore. It’s mainly that manufacturers stopped caring, due to accelerated product cycles and globalization, because the products sell regardless.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by thewebcount on Saturday September 24, 2022 @05:54PM (#32966872)
I recently bought a new washing machine. It has a mode with an odd name that turns out to be tied to a cleaning product from another company. The manual doesn’t have any information on what the mode does or why it exists. The manual is a generic manual for like 5 or 10 models, and seems to only include the functions common to them all. Any function on a higher-end model that’s not included on the lower-end model is just not documented. I guess if you want to use those, you’re on your own.

But of course, there’s a phone app you can download and give the company a bunch of personal information to connect your washer to your home network so you can get notification when it’s done with its cycle.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by autoexec on Sunday September 25, 2022 @06:42AM (#32970233)
Companies used to provide manuals that'd include part numbers and even schematics!

Now they're developing products for themselves. No customer ever asked for a TV that plastered the screen with ads every time they adjusted the volume, or a lightbulb you need some shitty app to turn on and off, but now it seems everything comes with some kind of hidden monkey paw style gotcha attached to it.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by thih9 on Monday September 26, 2022 @03:43AM (#32980505)
What I'm trying to point out is the shift in complexity and similarities between the areas of the same complexity. Check this out:

- 2020s appliances (throw away manuals) are like 90s hardware toolbox (throw away manuals)

- 2020s smartphones (easy to understand manuals) are like 90s appliances (easy to understand manuals)

- 2020s specialized tools (manuals with mental models) are like 90s computers (manuals with mental models)

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by numpad0 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @05:13PM (#32966571)
Those manuals from good old times came with introductions and basic training chapters. Manuals for music gear software don’t come with composition crash course, do they? In 80s and 90s they would have.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by ksec on Saturday September 24, 2022 @09:58PM (#32968289)
Because modern software engineering ( cough ) doesn't do well designed or well thought out software any more. It is all about "Move fast and break things", while the phase was coined by Mark Zuckerberg, ( or attributed to him ), that mentality or philosophy largely came from Google during the Web 2.0 era.

This make some sense for Web Product development where you want to find a market fit, VC and media were all over it. But it doesn't work as well for Desktop and other type of Apps. Or in System Programming.

And it is funny we start seeing push back against it 10 - 15 years later.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by kortilla on Saturday September 24, 2022 @10:12PM (#32968345)
> And it is funny we start seeing push back against it 10 - 15 years later.

Except we’re really not. Tools like container registries, software dependencies on remote repos, and cheap infrastructure have brought the fast half-baked iteration to systems programming, desktop apps, etc.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by ksec on Saturday September 24, 2022 @11:03PM (#32968578)
Well I should say some push back. I mean I have been complaining ( or ranting ) about it since ~2005ish and I would only get downvoted into oblivion in nearly all major forums, with little to zero comment ever agreeing. At least now we see some agreement with that on HN. So that sentiment is growing somewhat, no matter how small it is. It then takes more time until a large enough force to recognise it as a problem, and even more time for people to actually do something about it.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by ratioprosperous on Saturday September 24, 2022 @10:31PM (#32968446)
You're right and now I'm existentially upset
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by brokenmachine on Sunday September 25, 2022 @08:19PM (#32977927)
Shout out to Ableton who has a really well-written online and pdf manual for what is a quite complicated piece of software.

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/welcome-to-live/

Wish more software companies were this thorough.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by jonas21 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @05:18PM (#32966609)
Have you tried googling "iphone manual"? The first result is the iPhone User Guide [1], which is a comprehensive manual that does document literally everything.

The manual is also available as an 843-page ebook [2], and is accessible via the Tips app, which is preinstalled on the home screen.

It's not quite like the days when a paper manual would be right in the box, but it's close. And I think most people would be unhappy if their sleek new phone came with an 843-page tome (not to mention how much paper that would waste).

[1] https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/iphone/welcome/ios

[2] https://books.apple.com/book/id6443146864

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by mdemare on Saturday September 24, 2022 @06:06PM (#32966951)
> The manual is also available as an 843-page ebook [2], and is accessible via the Tips app, which is preinstalled on the home screen.

I didn't know that. I thought Tips was an app that gave you a couple of dozens of tips, and nothing else.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by userbinator on Saturday September 24, 2022 @07:26PM (#32967521)
Undiscoverability strikes again!

Would naming it "User Manual" be any better?

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by chrismarlow9 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @07:42PM (#32967608)
"it just works"
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by oliveshell on Saturday September 24, 2022 @09:05PM (#32968037)
To be fair, it does for most people.

That’s why they’ve never read the manual.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by chrismarlow9 on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:09PM (#32972753)
Yeah I was mostly being snarky and pointing out the irony(?) of the manual itself not being a part of "it just works" because it's not called a manual and most people wouldn't expect it to be under "tips". The thing you need to know how it works doesn't "just work", but then again if it "just works" you shouldn't need the manual. Maybe it's a catch 22 instead of irony.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by bosie on Sunday September 25, 2022 @04:41AM (#32969852)
What metric are you using to establish that claim though? Most people don't know what they don't know.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by Tijdreiziger on Sunday September 25, 2022 @07:45AM (#32970492)
Most people don't care to know in the first place. Here on HN we are interested in technology and being a 'power user', but most users don't want to spend a lot of mental cognition on it.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by hnick on Saturday September 24, 2022 @08:06PM (#32967746)
That doesn't seem to have a search feature? Not that a paper manual has, but flicking through quickly is a lot easier in paper than on screen.

I tried to find the answer to a problem I had and it's not there. I inherited an iphone where the side ringer mute toggle bounces back after setting, it's a mechanical error. There is no software "unmute" override - unless you use assistive touch. It took quote a while of wading through google results and well-intentioned-but-clueless advice from people before I found someone who revealed this. The manual just says assistive touch can help adjust volume so it is technically true I guess but the keyword "mute" is not there.

I did learn about the triple-click shortcut from than online manual just now, so I should thank it for that (even though it neglects to mention it needs to be enabled first).

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by tomcam on Sunday September 25, 2022 @04:12PM (#32975568)
That 843-page badonkadonk manual is a revelation! Thanks.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by toast0 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:00PM (#32966089)
> but you can Google everything you need to know.

It's hard to Google things you don't know exist. And it's hard to Google things that changed. If you've ever had a problem on macos, Googling is only useful if the problem is new; if it's been an issue in older versions, you're going to find all those questions and maybe some answers but they likely don't apply because Apple broke it differently now. Other vendors are not immune to this either, of course. I understand Apple actually does have manuals, they just don't print them and if they reference them, many people (including me) never noticed.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by thih9 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:13PM (#32966181)
> also came with a manual that documented literally everything

Note that iPhones have a manual too, it’s easy to navigate and quite comprehensive. E.g. here’s a page that describes the “trackpad” action: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/iphone/iph3c50f96e/16.... .

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by Ankaios on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:45PM (#32966402)
Even the manual itself isn't discoverable. (At least I don't see an obvious entry to it in the iOS UI.)
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by judge2020 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:54PM (#32966462)
The "Tips" app has the User Guide available interactively with full Table Of Contents & search functionality. There are also more tutorial-esque articles for things like 'open control center' or 'take a screenshot'.

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/iphone/iph3afc3b3fc/16...

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by NonNefarious on Sunday September 25, 2022 @12:53AM (#32969039)
The G in "GUI" stands for "graphical." People forget that when they defend shitty, undiscoverable UI. The examples in this article are right on point. Apple (and others) far too often simply punt and give up on doing the necessary design work, burying functionality behind some bullshit like "long presses" or "gestures" or modifier keys or modifier-key-clicking on a text label that isn't even demarcated as a control.

UI design takes time and thought; that's true. But why does a company with Apple's resources not bring the necessary effort to bear on it? It's not as if they can't afford it. Sure, there are time constraints, but if you're going to fold to those and trowel out shitty UI, then don't presume to publish "human interface guidelines" or other such bibles.

And it's high time to stop tolerating smug douchebags who denigrate any complaint about missing functionality and declare, "Well, you simply long-press Option-Shift-Command-Q to bring up the configuration menu."

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by userbinator on Saturday September 24, 2022 @07:29PM (#32967533)
Google only helps if you know what you're looking for and it's a search that it happens to give you good results on. I've increasingly found the latter to be a problem, because when it comes to the point that I need to search online, it's probably not something easily found.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by Gigachad on Saturday September 24, 2022 @05:49PM (#32966841)
Apple actually does have an extensive and up to date manual on their products which includes all those obscure convenience features. I don’t think much has really changed in this regard. The manual exists, is very easy to read and understand, but people don’t care because they get by without it just fine.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by mannykannot on Saturday September 24, 2022 @10:19PM (#32968372)
All too often the search results are padded with advice for some other version than the one I am having trouble with, and it is difficult or impossible to craft a query specific enough to weed them out as the information simply isn't there.

Then there is the problem of authors using product- and version-specific jargon that I haven't mastered yet, precisely because one can usually pick up the basic operations without reading a manual - "1. From the customization agent..."

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by ramraj07 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @07:18PM (#32967479)
As an aside, the ability to stop yourself and know when to google something is what’s starting to separate the truly “smart” from everyone now - whether it’s coding, or general knowledge and discussions, or even when you’re just sitting in the toilet musing about some random question.

Especially in coding I see this as the major difference between a good and great engineer - google things at the right time to find the best solutions. You don’t have to build it all yourself.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by morsch on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:02PM (#32966099)
Macs in the 90s, so System 6, 7 and 8, were full of hidden stuff. Clicking stuff while holding option, you would discover all kinds of interesting features and easter eggs.

https://wiki.preterhuman.net/The_Macintosh/Newton_Easter_Egg...

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by WalterBright on Saturday September 24, 2022 @04:12PM (#32966171)
I still can't find a list of all the command key shortcuts for Windows. Googling it yields lots of pages of partial lists.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by BeFlatXIII on Saturday September 24, 2022 @09:18PM (#32968104)
I think you just articulated what my #1 blocker to mastering vim and/or emacs has been: they're both designed for the "mastery thorough thick manual" era. Dashing off to Google answers my immediate query, but often is far less instructive than a well-organized manual with an index at letting me discover the adjacent thing I actually need.

OK, that's my #2 blocker. My #1 blocker is that I am no longer 15 and have things to do other than just poke about until I master a new text editor.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by taneq on Sunday September 25, 2022 @11:43PM (#32979155)
> My #1 blocker is that I am no longer 15 and have things to do other than just poke about until I master a new text editor.

100% this. Once upon the time my attitude would have been a bratty "you just don't want to do the work to master your tools!" My response to that now is "no the fuck I do NOT, I want problem number 8131 solved yesterday so I can move on to problem number 8132 which btw requires entirely different tooling."

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by BeFlatXIII on Monday September 26, 2022 @11:04AM (#32984068)
emacs and vim are tools that you'd use enough that mastering them is probably worth the time investment. However, it's 100% true that mastering every package your stack touches is impractical. Learn just enough to get the tests to pass and move on to the next bug.

I was lucky enough to have first encountered LaTeX and LilyPond while still in high school.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by 9dev on Sunday September 25, 2022 @01:33AM (#32969184)
For me, those are ancient tools for ancient times, designed when things really were different. We have other capabilities now, nobody is forced to work on the CLI anymore - I also refuse to spend weeks to „master“ my editor. Typing code is literally the least bad thing slowing me down when creating software.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by wruza on Sunday September 25, 2022 @06:01AM (#32970094)
“Ancient” with regard to a living thing is usually a characteristic that shows an ignorance of features and a lack of experience with dynamics of toolsets. Truly ancient (obsolete) things get lost to history.

We have other capabilities now, nobody is forced to work on the CLI anymore - I also refuse to spend weeks to „master“ my editor

I agree with all of that, but from the vim side of things. Although these are not my main concerns with organizing a development process, I find it troublesome to set up and tune a modern IDE into a useful state either, and refuse to do that unless it’s a workplace requirement.

Typing code is literally the least bad thing slowing me down when creating software.

Typing code in vim-insert or emacs is the same as in any other editor. You press keys, they show up on the screen. Press F1 and type a command. Press a shortcut to enter files pane and select a file to edit. Press C-K C-9 to expand all user folds. Install a plugin, map some keys and now you can set and cycle through bookmarks easily.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by skydhash on Sunday September 25, 2022 @06:06AM (#32970108)
It’s not about typing faster. It’s about learning a language of editing. When you’re begin to be fluent in it, you will be communicating with the editor the changes you want to see. And it’s just a terse language that realizing what you want to actually do it and see it done take only one or two seconds.

I strongly believes the “Think about it” -> “Express it” -> “See it done” is much better the whole ballet your hand would be doing with the mouse and keyboard.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by toss1 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @07:39PM (#32967596)
Yes it's great that we can Google/DDG most stuff at a whim. And there are often many great tutorials both written and video searchable online on a lot of software.

That does NOT solve the original discoverability problem.

>>I've been astonished at how often a feature was added 3 years ago to a program I've used for 8 years, or there's a secret swipe that avoids a bunch of menus, or an unofficial command-line flag.

THAT is the problem right there. You're a likely typical example of someone who is smart, knowledgeable, experienced, and motivated, probably beyond what used to be called a "power user". Yet great swaths of features, and the work of scores of designers, developers, & testers for years, simply escapes our notice.

The result is that vast amounts of productivity go squandered until we discover by chance accident or encounter with some "You didn't know this!" post.

I've occasionally seen some introduction wizards be somewhat helpful, but they are never in any kind of depth. It's like they are afraid to show you what the software can really do — but the real case is some marketing dude thinks (likely sometimes correctly) that if the intro is too long, people will think it's complicated and won't use it. If that's the case, we're again being dragged down by the lowest (of most ordinary) common denominator.

Solutions? How about the Quick Tour, and even the outline/TOC of a full manual, so we can at least skim it and see if some feature exists and then Google/DDG it...?

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by gmadsen on Sunday September 25, 2022 @09:56AM (#32971368)
I think relying on google might be too far, but there is certainly a middle group. My linux tools usage vastly improved by switching to a newer shell , with auto complete, pop up man pages, syntax checking arguments before executing, etc. Same with vim and tmux. Also using modern cli tool replacements that rust made popular. I wasted so much time when I was younger remembering things that provide a very small to no advantage if you do the above instead.

So, I'd say, google can be wrong, the ideal case is modify your existing tools as needed to maximize discoverability and minimize friction to actual documentation

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by agumonkey on Saturday September 24, 2022 @03:42PM (#32965945)
This pattern is quite global. Everything is "more available" now, real time streamed, there's no apparent need for apriori organization since we can correct on the fly. Or so it seems.

Games are patched live, browser in constant update etc etc

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by numpad0 on Sunday September 25, 2022 @02:10PM (#32974165)
> I've been astonished at how often a feature was added 3 years ago to a program I've used for 8 years,

This looks suspiciously similar to lifecycle of a social media, especially how they grow new features and eventually dies when users migrate.

Maybe it's a viable strategy for a social media, mobile OS, MMORPG, anything aaS to not explain features or educate users, but to grow as users consume added mechanics, until it becomes impossible for new users to catch up and old users to keep up?

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by 1-6 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @05:45PM (#32966803)
I actually miss picking up books like the Macintosh Bible where you can read through UI features. There was something fun about reading and then trying it in front of the keyboard.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by xen2xen1 on Saturday September 24, 2022 @07:25PM (#32967513)
I'm very, very tired of the size of the backlog of stuff I probably ought to Google. It's too freaking long. Just make it easy to do without looking it up!
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by davedx on Sunday September 25, 2022 @04:53AM (#32969885)
I really LOVE how rust approaches this: provide as much help as possible in the compiler error messages. Not sure if they were inspired by elm that does this too, but it means you do a lot less context switching between your program and “the manual”/stackoverflow/whatever else.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by copperx on Saturday September 24, 2022 @08:28PM (#32967863)
I haven't encountered a professional software product without a manual yet. What you describe applies to software for mass consumption only. It might change in the future, but it would be a bit ridiculous for a company to sell a product for a professional without documentation.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by bobbyi on Saturday September 24, 2022 @05:35PM (#32966729)
In the 1990s, plenty of people felt obligated to drive to the mall, walk into B Dalton, and purchase a 300 page book to learn how to use their new software. There was a whole section for it.

Today, they can find the equivalent information for free without leaving the device where the software is running.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by JKCalhoun on Saturday September 24, 2022 @05:41PM (#32966776)
Hard to say though if those books were in fact published by opportunists that surmised (correctly) that there was an audience out there that were either intimidated by the software manual (or assumed they would be without actually trying to read it) or who had pirated the software and so had no manual.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by DrewADesign on Saturday September 24, 2022 @08:07PM (#32967751)
As an interface designer I am completely confident that you're looking at old usability through rose colored glasses. Most software these days doesn't come with a big monolithic manual because it doesn't need one. More people directly use software now than ever before and most of them will probably never read a single line from a software user manual; not because they don't exist, it's because they don't have to. The vanishingly small percentage of folks very experienced with interfaces designed for professional software users– often using old interface flows and metaphors– get frustrated with software designed for everybody else. Your understanding of software usability isn't representative– that's why almost no open source software, no matter how big the manual is, gains anywhere close to the same usage as their commercial equivalents.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by theamk on Saturday September 24, 2022 @08:43PM (#32967945)
That's not what the article ssys though.. do you really think "everybody else" would have discovered the actions described without any sort of help page?

I think the modern software does not come with the manuals because it simply has severly reduced functionality compared to the old days. For example, when was the last time you had used a navigation software with "avoid area" and "add custom road" features?

There was always a tradeoff between "more features thus more UX complexity" (power user approach) vs "cut features to keep UX simpler" (UX designer approach). Sadly, the designers won.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by DrewADesign on Saturday September 24, 2022 @09:33PM (#32968187)
> do you really think "everybody else" would have discovered the actions described without any sort of help page?

No, the article is completely accurate about the lack of discoverability of those features. It highlights them because they are a direct contrast to nearly every other interface feature on iOS. That's what makes them interesting to interface designers.

> I think the modern software does not come with the manuals because it simply has severly reduced functionality compared to the old days.

Oh?

> For example, when was the last time you had used a navigation software with "avoid area" and "add custom road" features?

Did those navigation applications offer traffic overlaying satellite imagery? Public transit directions with real time vehicle tracking? Were you able to just type an address as we parse them or did you need to enter it in some weird little-endian order? Density of people at any given location, how many people are on a bus, or how busy Home Depot is? Up-to-date business hours? Alternate routes on regional rail and airlines? Up-to-date road closures even for temporal events? 3D photographic street-level POV navigation? Terrain maps? Cycling instructions? Weather? Descriptions of area attractions with an array of photographs for each? Wildfire maps? Hail you a ride share?

The number of gained features dwarfs the number of lost features by an order of magnitude in software lasting that long.

> There was always a tradeoff between "more features thus more UX complexity" (power user approach) vs "cut features to keep UX simpler" (UX designer approach).

You're wrong. Our software today does vastly more than software of yesteryear. Most of it feels so natural-- like those maps features-- that you don't notice it coming into existence. It just sort of fits right into the ecosystem-- and that's the whole point.

FOSS is a perfect example of what happens when software interfaces are assembled by developers rather than designed. I've been a developer, mostly towards the back of the stack, for a good 11 years. I also have art school education in interface design. Most developers have no idea how little they know about the way people use interfaces. To us, a GUI is a visual wrapper that facilitates interacting with the underlying software, like an API. Obfuscating functionality when it's not likely useful seems wasteful to someone used to reasoning about complex software. The problems arise when they take their personal usage preferences, assume they're representative of all users, and treat them as broadly applicable maxims in all of the software they create.

Most users don't have the mental models in place to reason about the software functioning behind the interface-- to them, the interface is the software. An interface that doesn't consider what users need to and almost as importantly, don't need to see at any given point is confusing. Confusing is bad, so to them, the software is bad. To a developer, a confusing interface is something to be overcome by reading a manual.

For example, you'll regularly catch professional photographers kvetching about the cost of adobe products... they have almost all tried Gimp but nearly none of them use it. There's little photographers (vs. say, graphic designers) can do in Photoshop that they can't do in Gimp... so why don't more photographers use it? Because it was designed by developers, for users who already have a mental model of the way software works with little regard for everyone else. Literally the only people you see advocating for Gimp are more FOSS fans than artists. Ask photographers why they don't use it and they'll mention the same things every time-- the interface sucks. It's confusing. Things are in unexpected places and function in unexpected ways. Affinity Photo, on the other hand, is starting to get a following.

Photoshop is far from simple, but both the new user experience and the overall capability vastly surpass Gimp. That's why Adobe's userbase grows by millions of users every year despite direct competitors and people having complained about the price since they released v1. Software with expert users will either accommodate expert workflows or they'll no longer have expert users. Software with new users will accommodate beginners or nobody will adopt the software, if there's competition.

Inkscape, on the other hand, enjoys a decent-ish reputation among professional vector graphics artists and unlike Gimp, is sometimes considered a viable tool of the trade. Illustrator and other tools do a hell of a lot more, but people don't roll their eyes when someone brings it up as a FOSS alternative.

Design vs functionality is a false dichotomy. The fact that so many developers assume complexity in interface == good functionality is the reason open source alternatives are alternative rather than the standard.

> Sadly, the designers won.

Your misplaced blame betrays your lack of understanding of what interface designers actually do. Only managers controlling the purse strings want software to do less. Designers are perfectly happy doing the hard work of figuring out the best ways to communicate software's functionality by what is shown, and what is not shown, on any given screen.

Could you imagine people with different domain expertise, like health insurance claims, designed the interfaces around people with their level of familiarity with the underlying systems? What would you say when they scoffed at your lack of sophistication when you refused to crack open a 400 page manual to file a simple claim? After all, it's right there on page 288 in the manual! How do you find it? Just look for 'adjustments, claims' in the index! How would you know to look for that term? "Hhhhhhhh... you don't deserve to have that claim filled!"

Hyperbolic? Sure. But you shouldn't need an existing mental model of the underlying insurance claim machine to file an insurance claim, and that flavor of contempt for users not already understanding "how software works" is endemic in software development, and exactly what designers mitigate.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by tomcam on Sunday September 25, 2022 @04:17PM (#32975632)
These two statements contradict either other IMHO.

> There's little photographers (vs. say, graphic designers) can do in Photoshop that they can't do in Gimp

> Photoshop is far from simple, but both the new user experience and the overall capability vastly surpass Gimp.

I agree with the second you.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by DrewADesign on Sunday September 25, 2022 @05:36PM (#32976547)
I think you might be misreading the intent behind those statements in one of two ways:

1) Capability != Experience. Gimp is capable of doing about what Photoshop can do for photographers but with a much, much worse experience.

2) Photographers aren't the only Photoshop users and Gimp's shortcomings are much more consequential for, say, Graphic Designers. Comparing Gimp's typesetting tools to Photoshop's is like comparing a screwdriver to a fully-stocked workshop. Since those features generally aren't on photographers radars, let alone in their regular workflow, I didn't include them.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by NonNefarious on Sunday September 25, 2022 @01:02AM (#32969071)
"It highlights them because they are a direct contrast to nearly every other interface feature on iOS."

Hahaha, really? That's a laughable claim. Tell us how to remove a city from the Weather app then.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by DrewADesign on Sunday September 25, 2022 @01:43AM (#32969225)
You totally destroyed my assertion that iOS has zero usability problems in any feature.
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by int_19h on Sunday September 25, 2022 @08:29PM (#32977988)
You know, I've had experience teaching elderly and computer-illiterate people tech. It was much easier to teach them Windows in early 00s than iOS today, because the former, while looking more complicated, was also very consistent - once you explained the basics like drop-down and context menus and drag and drop, those things generally worked everywhere throughout the system, even in new apps they haven't seen before.

Conversely, with iOS, the problem isn't just that all those techniques are undiscoverable - it's that the tricks you learn for one app will rarely work in another. Well, that, and the fact that they regularly change basic UX, too, like removing the physical home button.

Re:iPhones and action discoverability by tomcam on Sunday September 25, 2022 @04:15PM (#32975605)
I feel like you just disqualified yourself as an interface designer
Re:iPhones and action discoverability by DrewADesign on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:44AM (#32991875)
I feel like you feel like you're vastly more qualified to make that judgement than you actually are.