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Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by cmrdporcupine on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:17AM (#31894180)
This is not a surprise to me. I think it also applies to some people who are senior and new on a project or team. Or people with a more synchronous working style. I think remote has been toxic to productivity in all sorts of companies and for all sorts of people. I think there's in general a "personality type" that does really well with remote in a certain kind of job and thrives with fairly asynchronous disconnected tasks, and on HN I think there's a bias towards seeing our whole industry that way.

But some of my best jobs were not like that. They were sitting down with people in very up close conversations and working out ambiguities and tasks. And mentoring juniors and working things through with them.

All that said, I won't be going back to in person. I'll be hunting for places that know how to make remote work, even though I don't prefer it. Because remote is still better than the 1.5 hours a day I was spending driving and the toll that was taking on my health and sanity. And most of the local employers are crappy.

So it's a real mix of stuff, we're in a transition period. It's going to take a few years for this stuff to shake out.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by lettergram on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:36AM (#31894409)
I think anyone who can’t work well remote, on average, will not be your top performers anyway.

What I mean by that — as a manager and one of the senior engineers, I had insight across our organization to projects and employee performance.

Those who thrived being remote were those who already were the top performers. Those who were followers; who lacked discipline, failed faster and more obviously. Most software engineers produce more effort than they’re worth and skate by with meetings, “pair programming”, etc

When the lockdowns started, my team at the time were some of the top performers. I had already had a remote team and we knew how to screen for it and manage it.

Some things we employed - weekly syncs across team members, an always open video chat, daily stand ups amongst projects, fun days where we’d play games online, etc. The most effective thing we implemented was holding people accountable to their deliverables. People commit to their work and tell us when it’ll be done, if they fail we talk about it as a team. Team members quickly learn they must deliver and if they need help ask. We don’t delay timelines and I expected a clear “I think this will take days” if they need to delay, that’s fine, but they explain publicly and ask for help.

That quickly led to discipline and we’d pair senior engineers with junior engineers to improve.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by jmyeet on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:37AM (#31895164)
It's so easy to conflate "top performers" with "people like me".

Take someone who points out flaws in a system, things that need to be addressed before they become a problem. The exact same words from two different people can be interpreted differently. For example:

- "X is a top performer who anticipates problems with their deep understanding of the system"; and

- "Y is negative and simply points out problems rather than offering solutions."

The difference? Whether or not that person is liked, which really comes down to them being like me. That's literally all it is.

Take your example of "fun" days. Personally I hate that kind of faux team bonding. I mean if it works for you and your team then great. But don't be fooled. You haven't found the formula for "top performers". You've just found people like you.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by cmrdporcupine on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:59AM (#31895489)
Totally agree, and it's the kind of language that rings alarm bells for me especially when coming from a person with a manager role.

"Those who were followers; who lacked discipline, failed faster and more obviously."

Classifying one's reports into "top performers" and people who "lacked discipline" or "followers" betrays a categorical mindset very eager to bucket people rather than see the contradictions and subtleties of people's individual situations and work towards helping to resolve the difficulties, which is what leadership / management should be about.

EDIT to put it another way: good parenting (which I don't always practice, BTW) doesn't say "You're a bad boy", they say "You did a bad thing." Likewise when talking to oneself, it's really shitty to say "I'm a crappy X [engineer/painter/swimmer]".. it's far better to say "I did X poorly last time." A good engineering manager should help frame things this way, and shouldn't be saying "top performers" and "followers" but, instead: "people who performed well" and "people who tended to be behind or 'follow' in the last quarter" and help the latter identify how they can do the former (note: not be, but do).

We were in a global crisis. People were at home with their young kids, spouses, dogs, whatever distractions. Empathy and flexibility were required to make this work. "Failing" at work was probably the least of concerns for many people, given everything that was going on. I personally quit my job rather than deal with the guilt of having spent time getting my son to do his school work rather than triaging bug tickets. Others could not afford to do so.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by lettergram on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:23PM (#31896821)
It’s not hard to implement a system which measures success.

For one, we ensure everyone commits and delivers and holds others accountable for failures. What you’re describing is not a measurement of performance, I see your point though.

I too very much disdain “team bonding”. But the point is to get to know and respect each other. By doing so you’re more likely to hold yourself accountable.

In terms of performance there’s two parts:

1. How much you commit to

2. How much you deliver on commitments

We expect 100% on #2 or explanations and plans to adjust. On #1 we expect that to change as you increase through the ranks. Junior members don’t need to commit to as much, senior more and staff should commit to a lot and help the junior.

Top performance is learning what you can accomplish and delivering, communicating when you’re having trouble, and then ensuring improvement over time in terms of committing to more.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by jmyeet on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:35PM (#31897031)
> It’s not hard to implement a system which measures success.

So if I were looking to join your team and you said this it would be a huge red flag. Why? Because it's not easy or everyone would've done it already. The fact that you think it's easy really would be a cause for concern.

> For one, we ensure everyone commits and delivers ...

First sentence in and you've already added a qualitative factor. For a given task, is it "enough" to meet team expectations? This depends on how difficult it is perceived to be. Maybe there's some huge unknown unknowns. Maybe it's just really tedious and is real time gated for some reason. The standard retort is "we take that into account" but again this conflates subjective perception with objective truth.

Some people talk a very good game about how hard their job is and I've seen some very senior people skate because of this and the fact that for whatever reason they're liked (by management).

You expect 100% delivery on commitments. How is that not going to just reward under-promising? it also leads to things being half-assed. Bugs closed as "could not reproduce" or "working as intended". Features being just good enough to ship without the massive problems surfacing later. Hell, that's just another opportunity for more impact.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by lettergram on Monday June 27, 2022 @02:56PM (#31899069)
You’re correct nothings perfect, but these systems are really easy to develop. That said and as I already stated, most people are mediocre. Same goes for management. I see lots of talk and little delivery. It’s the whole reason YC invests in founders that “get something shipped” is a thing. People don’t move fast, they talk, they mess around, they don’t commit and deliver. Same for managers as engineers.

Further and to clarify, I said it’s fine if you can’t complete a task due to some unknown. Vocalize it to the team and update accordingly. It won’t be held against you if you if you collaborate to get it resolved. If that happens every time, there may be an issue, but typically people learn to investigate before committing.

Expecting people do what they commit is the only way to drive people to success. As I said, there are two factors, how much you commit to and how much you deliver on commitments. If people want to move up they have to commit to more AND deliver more over a 6-12 month period. Failure to deliver on a regular basis means you should commit to less. In either case, it’s easy to measure objective results.

Comments like these are red flags for me, because pushing back on estimates or communication is not going to go well. Your job is to produce results, if you fail, but ask for assistance that’s one thing. We can plan around that. If you fail and don’t request assistance that’s another. It’s about promoting solid engineering and development, keeping delivery timelines, etc. This worked on the remote places I’ve worked, might not be a great fit for you idk.

In terms of bugs, that’s more of an engineering culture. We always had strict and thorough PR reviews. High test coverage, formatted code with comments and two reviews from at level or more senior engineers.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by Melatonic on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:09PM (#31897514)
I do not think that is entirely true at all - I am definitely very well liked at my job and probably most people would say I am also not like them at all.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by alexashka on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:00PM (#31896437)
Nobody is conflating Steph Curry with 'someone like me'.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by travisgriggs on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:42AM (#31895234)
+50
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by bmitc on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:59AM (#31894678)
> I think anyone who can’t work well remote, on average, will not be your top performers anyway.

I don’t think that’s the case at all. One could say a similar thing in that it enables the worst employees who can drag down so-called top performers. But I don’t like any of these framings.

I personally prefer working in the office. I’m more productive, focused, and able to check in with someone or go grab them and show them an issue I’m having. I’m able to attend talks, have discussions, etc., which get me going on certain ideas. I am a person that doesn’t work well in ambiguity. I like to have a plan discussed and agreed upon. I find this is much harder remotely, for reasons both known and unknown.

Very few deep conversations happen over Slack. I miss some of the deep conversations I used to have with fellow coworkers on slower days. You are also very limited to the type of work you can do. Basically any job requiring hardware interaction requires you to be in office, either by natural constraints or policies.

But I am also like the commenter above. It will be really hard to give up remote work. The convenience of not having to commute, dress a certain way, have my own food in my own kitchen, etc. are all massive perks. At some point, I may choose to go back into the office, but I’m going to do the remote thing for a while. Especially now that gas is insane.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by bumby on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:23AM (#31895846)
>I’m more productive, focused, and able to check in with someone or go grab them and show them an issue I’m having.

I think there's an important distinction here. It may be more productive for you but not necessarily for the team. You grabbing another employee may increase your productivity but subvert theirs. Anecdotally, my personal productivity goes way up when I work remote because I don't have all the "drive-by" questions that erode my focused work time. Whether or not that makes the team more or less productive may be a factor team dynamics and contributions.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by mgfist on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:51AM (#31896285)
At the same time, being able to maintain productivity while handling questions is a skill in of its own. I work on a team building/maintaining internal tools/infra and a large part of my job is interfacing with other teams and maintaining productivity on my own work at the same time is a big part of my responsibility.

So it cuts both ways.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by bmitc on Monday June 27, 2022 @03:39PM (#31899707)
I don't think that's a distinction, and it definitely isn't one way because the you here will also be interrupting the team. All this gets into team dynamics, which can't possibly be whittled down to such small interactions.

Then there's this somewhat weird obsession with people supposedly being unable to perform their job without 8 hours of uninterrupted solo time. The work day isn't supposed to just be each person working solo trying to accomplish as much as possible. Interacting with the team is being productive. Extremes in either direction are likely not productive.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by bumby on Monday June 27, 2022 @04:22PM (#31900256)
I agree that team interaction can be productive. (I might even be a bit cynical in saying that most team interaction is not, but that might be a digression). I think the distinction is in how the work culture manages those interactions. My previous job wanted open-door policies; what that turned into was a poorly managed ad-hoc set of interactions. Open door interaction tended to foster unproductive venting and it can become like corralling cats to refocus that energy into solving problems. That may be fine for a supervisor; it's probably not the best use of time for front line production person.

I think I may disagree about the "somewhat weird obsession" with uninterrupted work. (I'm assuming your '8 hours' was hyperbole). The research seems pretty clear that interruptions are more detrimental to highly focused work. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect certain blocks of uninterrupted time if the type of work requires it, but that shouldn't be conflated to someone expected to simply be left alone all day.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by mihaic on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:49AM (#31894566)
> I think anyone who can’t work well remote, on average, will not be your top performers anyway.

This sort of overgeneralization just tells me we'll have people in 5-10 years "realize" that many of the benefits of remote work were just built on relationships and processes created in the days before. It's like the "open office" floor planning all over again, but with higher stakes.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by scottLobster on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:07AM (#31894784)
In defense of remote work underperformers in general, I work for a company with a lot of tribal knowledge. It shouldn't be that way, but that's how the company operates and our pleas for time/money to write adequate internal documentation fall on deaf ears (doesn't help that it's legacy software so there's not many people capable of writing said documentation). Result is there are a few wise old (as in 15-20+ years experience) veterans who know the "deep magic" of how the software works, but they also tended to be the least available online during our year of WFH (with some exceptions).

In the office the culture for accessing these guys was: Ping with slack DM/skype, if they don't answer in 15 minutes walk over to their desk and bend their ear, unless they were clearly working something more important at the moment. Sometimes there would even be short lines of people outside of their cube waiting for attention.

There was an organic interrupt-driven workflow for these experts because they were in so much demand (with occasional pauses in access if they were working on something time-critical). That whole workflow collapsed under WFH, and as these veterans were used to operating on their own/managing their own time roughly half of them failed to be readily available online. This led to issues for people like myself where we needed some piece of their knowledge but just got radio silence for hours, sometimes days. So you pick up some other work to fill in the gap while you wait for a response, but that leads to inefficiencies of its own once they actually do get back to you. Once I had a cascade of about 6 stories going in parallel because I kept picking up alternate work to fill gaps, only to get to a point in THAT work where I needed some tribal knowledge, so I pinged the appropriate SME, waited several hours, picked up another task in the meantime... etc

And leadership lacks any carrots/sticks to make these guys accessible aside from asking nicely. They're largely where they want to be for their careers, value their time, and have all the truly vital knowledge so they can't really be punished lest they leave the program.

Sadly I suspect my company's organization is closer to the average than yours, so lots of other companies fall into this boat. It's not always a matter of discipline :)

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by barrysteve on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:43AM (#31895243)
I've seen this pattern recently outside of software. This kind of "tribal capture" lead to mediocrity and nepotism. The untouchable tribal leaders fostered an environment where unpleasant roles were left understaffed until 'lower people' were subtly manipulated into taking them, who then left. It created a revolving door of staff that otherwise would have made good contributions. Management in response to the turn over, shut down critical thinking about the staff and just committed to the problematic structure.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by scottLobster on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:20PM (#31896777)
Yeah that accurately describes my workplace as well. The revolving door of "lower people" you mention is very real. I'm one of those "lower people" and I've definitely been shifted into the work no one else wants. To be fair I was fresh out of college and took the "volunteer for the work no one wants to earn respect" route, and it did earn me some respect, even a promotion and a pay bump. But after a couple of years of trying to push further it's clear there's a ceiling, and my only chance of doing any of the interesting work is waiting for the old men to retire/leave, and then I'll likely be dumped into the deep end to figure things out myself, under extreme time pressure because critical stuff's breaking and I have 25% of the knowledge necessary to fix it, which makes me the remaining program "expert" :P

I'm sticking around for personal/defensive reasons (it's stable and recession-proof, and I have a one-month old so moving would be extra stressful for the family), but I doubt I'll stick around for more than another year or two. My turn for that revolving door is coming up

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by bornfreddy on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:34AM (#31896018)
Interesting. This aligns with my past experience as well. If I may ask, are you / is the company working on rectifying this, and if so, how?

What we did was that we made our internal docs and agreed that whenever we were blocked by something, once we learned it, we would document it. It was a mixed success though because we never had time to work on the docs properly, and the veterans didn't touch it, so I'm curious if there is a better approach.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by scottLobster on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:06PM (#31896561)
Yeah we're trying to do the same, document things organically as we learn them on an internal Confluence. It helps, but we're piecing together fragments of knowledge without context, so information density is low outside of specific tasks. It's enough to solve the same problem again, but not enough to gain much holistic knowledge of the software. And same as your situation most of the veterans don't bother with it (they already have the knowledge and are extremely busy).

Doesn't help that some of the engine code dates back to the late 80s, was originally written on a mainframe for a compiler where variable names had character limits, so even if you know the surrounding conceptual terminology it's functionally indecipherable unless you have a lot of experience with it. It's hard to tell what it's doing or why, or even if it's relevant to the problem you're trying to debug.

What we really need is something like a dedicated sprint where we stop the presses outside of critical maintenance and just write documentation, free up the veterans to write down their knowledge. But that would require the company to actually invest in what is otherwise seen (wrongfully IMO) as a cost-center. :P

And honestly if we had that kind of money there's other software redundancies/inefficiencies that need to be resolved first, that would lower the documentation requirements in the first place.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by bornfreddy on Monday June 27, 2022 @02:58PM (#31899091)
I hear you! Thanks for sharing.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by holoduke on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:42AM (#31894497)
Utterly nonsense. How about children learning from home via a laptop? Doesn't work. Same for people who need to be trained in a new work environment. You want real interaction. You need to experience more than only sound and video in order to learn efficient. It's extremely wrong to think that good performers can always do these things from home. Not right.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by posed on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:54AM (#31894619)
I joined my company straight out of college and it was during covid peak, it was totally remote and guess what, last week my manager called me and told me that I've been promoted with a salary hike(within less than a year).

If you've discipline and commitment you can make anything work. :)

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by ktzar on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:58AM (#31896410)
Agreed. I've line managed people who have grown immensely during covid. I think the key is understanding the new medium... A remote office where conversations are encouraged to happen in the open and not by DM, is a better environment for juniors to learn than an office where there's closed rooms and knowledge moves in a more hierarchical way.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by mgfist on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:52AM (#31896301)
Congrats, but do you ever wonder if it would've been faster/easier in person?
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by Agamus on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:07AM (#31894783)
I just want to note that my experience is the exact opposite of this in every regard.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by KaiserPro on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:38AM (#31895179)
I suspect it depends on age and class.

My 5 year old struggled and needed a whole bunch of support.

my 8 year old was able to work on her own, but still didn't get anywhere near as good learning outcome as being in class.

Now, the reason why my kids didn't fail utterly, was because my wife wasn't working and could, just about support their learning. Until it sapped her will to live.

This is roughly analogous to junior employees. They need special attention, and providing that over remote is a challenge to scale. Not impossible, but a challenge.

You also need to factor in that Junior employees are more likely to have shit accommodation.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by bcrosby95 on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:02AM (#31895544)
Yeah, we did remote kindergarten and it was basically a disaster. We were lucky that my wife could help, otherwise our kid would have learned nothing.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by zeroonetwothree on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:27AM (#31895032)
Your experience as a child learning from a laptop?
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by Agamus on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:39AM (#31895191)
On that topic, no, I am referring to observing my own children learning from a laptop. I could not have been more skeptical of this approach at first. I was wrong - the approach has worked well so far.

EDIT: I definitely should have mentioned that my children are learning from a laptop WITH very close guidance from my wife who is raising them full-time and with intense dedication!

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by mgfist on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:58AM (#31896413)
> EDIT: I definitely should have mentioned that my children are learning from a laptop WITH very close guidance from my wife who is raising them full-time and with intense dedication!

lol Pretty big caveat

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by astura on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:01AM (#31906220)
>my children are learning from a laptop WITH very close guidance from my wife who is raising them full-time and with intense dedication!

In other words, they are not at all just learning from a laptop.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by zeroonetwothree on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:27PM (#31896884)
Sounds like your children are actually learning from your wife.

My experience is that unsupervised education is worthless.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by M0r13n on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:46AM (#31895286)
Nope. Personally I could not disagree more.

I studied CS pre pandemic at a regular university. The whole curriculum was designed around lectures and in-person classes. But I skipped most of them due to social anxiety and laziness. Because every class had a digital script and I could practice with old exams, I did fairly well. Even better than most of those guys that visited every lecture. I guess that part of the problem is that some students tend to think, that just visiting the lecture is enough. They forget to practice the stuff on their own. Which you do automatically if you work through the script all by yourself.

After university I dropped right into my first job. Because of the pandemic it was 100% remote. Again, this worked perfectly. I could not have been any better. I even was able to take additional responsibility due to my performance "which exceeds expectations".

So calling this nonsense is nonesense ;-)

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by sebzim4500 on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:41AM (#31895219)
Have you considered not hiring children?
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by MattGaiser on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:40AM (#31895209)
I learned largely via laptop until Grade 8 (am 25 currently). I wasn't behind when I transitioned to regular school.

I suspect it works for readers, not audio consumers.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by anchochilis on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:12AM (#31894842)
Your management style sounds like it would rapidly kill creativity and innovation, psych safety, and codebase quality.

I hold myself to high standards and have been described as a top performer by every manager I've ever had.

I am disciplined and work extra hours as needed to ship. I am constantly thinking about the product and the engineering challenges we face outside of working hours. But sometimes things take longer than expected, sometimes complexity estimates are off, every so often I have a bad week due to personal reasons. Having to conduct a team-wide postmortem every time a ticket rolls over into the next sprint sounds exhausting and I'd start looking for a new job stat. At a minimum it's a huge amount of communication overhead when you should trust me to get my job done, especially considering my track record.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by lettergram on Monday June 27, 2022 @03:12PM (#31899331)
> Your management style sounds like it would rapidly kill creativity and innovation, psych safety, and codebase quality.

Couldn’t be further from the truth. I ran an applied research team for years. We had hundreds of patents, multiple publications, a growing open source project, multiple presentations a year, delivered a couple of the highest priority projects, and were consultants company wide for deep learning.

I was always fine with delays, but you had to discuss them and collaborate. Come to the team, explain, then we could prioritize accordingly (5 min). It’s not a big deal, but always required high communication. That’s difficult in a remote environment, but that’s why you have regular meetings & have to be more strict than normal about planning.

Perhaps it wouldn’t be an environment for you, that’s fair. But a project isn’t about you, it’s about a deliverable; often a team effort. If 10 min of communication a day is too much, idk then.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by varispeed on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:58AM (#31896399)
> People commit to their work and tell us when it’ll be done, if they fail we talk about it as a team. Team members quickly learn they must deliver and if they need help ask. We don’t delay timelines and I expected a clear “I think this will take days” if they need to delay, that’s fine, but they explain publicly and ask for help.

We have exactly the same strategy and it works very well.

> Those who were followers; who lacked discipline, failed faster and more obviously. Most software engineers produce more effort than they’re worth and skate by with meetings, “pair programming”, etc

This is so common and I am glad that remote work has been an effective extra filter. I mean, I don't mind mentoring junior devs, but also I am not a teacher and many of them seemed lacking total basics. Like they memorised algorithms but had no idea why they work or common issue was them just pasting code from Stackoverflow and then asking for help when it didn't work.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by theonething on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:58PM (#31897358)
> People commit to their work and tell us when it’ll be done, if they fail we talk about it as a team

That sounds horrible. Software estimation is not a science and some say is impossible. To hold people to their estimates or else they've "failed" is toxic.

Just a personal opinion, but I hate daily standups. It's agile theatre. Nobody listens to what others are saying; they're too busy trying to make up good sounding stuff to say when it's their turn. I'm being a bit hyperbolic, but the general principle applies.

But sounds like it's working for your company so more power to you.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by urthor on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:52AM (#31894598)
> an always open video chat

What.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by gonzo41 on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:47AM (#31895304)
It's a way to just be together, It's kinda just a way to share space and breakup the loneliness of covid and you can just ask questions to the team.

I've not done it as an established thing, but had standups where we pivoted to working on issues and as the issue got sorted everyone just chatted and enjoyed each other's company whilst moving onto other work. 3 hours later it's lunch and you end a mega video chat.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by molsongolden on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:46AM (#31896201)
This most likely doesn’t mean that every person has their camera on 24/7, the setups I’ve seen have a “room” that is always open then people can enter and leave whenever.

Tools like Remotion or the virtual office apps with spatial sound and movable avatars also aim to lower the friction and make informal chats easier.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by greatpostman on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:16AM (#31895749)
This sounds terrible and I would leave this team fast. I work in a high performing FAANG team. Deadlines get pushed all the time
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by bumby on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:30AM (#31895961)
Does one ever question why deadlines constantly get pushed? At best, it means those high performers are bad at setting initial deadlines. Or is it that meeting deadlines isn't considered a performance metric?

Now if deadlines are important, maybe it's just relative performance that you're speaking to. So if everyone misses deadlines you can still be high-performing, but it's like saying you're the skinniest kid at fat camp. It's normalization of deviance, and not a trait of high performing teams.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by xxpor on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:01PM (#31896453)
Because setting precise deadlines is nearly impossible without a massive investment up front, that companies aren't willing to make. Software engineering projects aren't run like a civil engineering project where you have precise blueprints done before you set construction timelines.

There's also a big difference between being a month late and a year late. It's also a lot easier to explain you're going to miss a deadline 3 months in advance than a week before.

You don't get high performing teams by forcing crunch time because the deadline is the deadline. This is also why I'm grateful not to work in video games; you can't reschedule Christmas.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by bumby on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:15PM (#31896687)
>Software engineering projects aren't run like a civil engineering project where you have precise blueprints done before you set construction timelines.

Ironically, the civil engineering projects are one of the best examples of missed budgets and schedules. Almost every civil project at large scale becomes rife with change orders because coordinating different domains is complex, even if those domains have "precise" blueprints. Those blueprints always change, which is why the industry has "design" documents and "as-built" documents.

So what do you think it is? Why do they have an inability to coordinate large complex pieces of a project? Optimism bias? Can we really call someone a high-performer when they display those shortcomings? Or do we just normalize them so they aren't considered a problem?

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by greatpostman on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:03PM (#31896511)
The software is way too complex to gauge how long something will take. It’s also extremely risky to make a mistake in production. Projects slated for three months can take two years.

If you’re engineers are constantly hitting deadlines, probably it’s greenfield development or the problem space is simple

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by bumby on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:16PM (#31896710)
I agree. But if we don't manage it well at scale, that underscores that we don't really understand the complexity of the problem. Can you call someone a "top performer" when they don't understand the complexity of the problem?

We can write complex code with minimal errors[1].

"the last three versions of the program — each 420,000 lines long-had just one error each. The last 11 versions of this software had a total of 17 errors. Commercial programs of equivalent complexity would have 5,000 errors."

But I worry when we facilely normalize sub-optimal behavior because we've normalized it. Especially as FAANG and adjacent companies work on safety-critical software and when that attitude pervades other domains.

[1] https://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by spoonjim on Monday June 27, 2022 @02:49PM (#31898950)
"Get better people" is not a talent strategy at scale unless you are also going to "pay them a lot more" which means that your corporate strategy also needs to include "make a ton of fucking money." Nice if you can pull it off, but the rest of the world needs to manage their companies too.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by asah on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:36AM (#31895156)
sadly, this is my experience as well...

...but it's also true that all-superstar teams rarely win vs teams composed on superstars and supporting staff [1], and thus you can't afford to hose the supporting staff.

[1] sorry I don't have a better reference - https://www.google.com/search?q=all-superstar+teams+vs+super...

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by throwthroyaboat on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:51PM (#31897270)
Another side to this is, how possible it it actually to acquire a team of "superstars"? If you work at a big, well paying company maybe. But for anything non-FAANG, you might not have enough talent coming in that you'll be perpetually short staffed if you set the bar too high.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by sweetheart on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:05AM (#31894758)
Pair programming is a fantastic tool. Why the snark?
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by prepend on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:20AM (#31894943)
I like pair programming and think I learned a ton by being the junior “driving” while the senior was “navigating.”

But I’ve also had some nightmare scenarios with people who just massively slack and do nothing. I worked with someone who wanted to “navigate” in 10/10 sessions and never said anything. They just watched me do stuff, didn’t respond to questions, didn’t work on docs, didn’t look stuff up. It was weird.

Mismatches like this made me eventually stop doing it as the team ended up separating out to pairs of superstars and pairs who did nothing. And it demoralized people.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by pyb on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:38AM (#31896084)
That's why people should not be forced to pair program. (and I personally favor pairing)
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by bragr on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:27AM (#31895040)
Clearly this person is not throwing shade a pair programming, but lazy employees who might skate by doing lots of "pair programming" without pulling their weight.

I've come across people that are very good at getting "help" on their work to the point that they do very little work.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by ratww on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:19AM (#31894925)
GP isn't talking about Pair programming in general. Pair programming is great. But quote-unquote "Pair Programming", where only one person does the work... not really. Been there done that.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by legalcorrection on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:08AM (#31894790)
Some people need more authority and external motivation generally in order to realize their potential.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by shmatt on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:52AM (#31894602)
I agree, and have to wonder what would happen if pre-remote some researcher tried to break it down to 'Computer Science Graduate' and 'Taught themselves on CodeAcademy'

I would bet the CS graduate is having a much easier time self-learning at home than the no-degree person who usually stops peoples work 12-15 times a day to get them to explain concepts or show them around the code, again...

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by Macha on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:00AM (#31894704)
Huh, I'd expect the self taught person to be more capable of teaching themselves the codebase than the CS grad, especially once you get into companies doing bog standard CRUD API + SPA webapp for a SaaS.

It's the new grads from courses that are theory heavy and practice light that expect a lecturer or tutor to guide them through the whole process in my experience.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by shmatt on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:13AM (#31894851)
From personal experience only:

Self taught people (Bootcamps are included here) are self taught to perform in the very specific tool-heavy world. Think Create React App + AWS. It's harder for them to independently understand bigger decisions/system design/building something from the ground up

CS grads know how to study, know when they are really stuck, and know what the good questions to ask when stuck are. They were thrown into this impossible course work and survived, they're better at studying complex systems, and to clearly define what exactly they do and dont understand

Bootcamp grads? they just need you to share a code snippet of exactly what you asked them to do in a different place in the codebase

You could explain 10 times why you chose to build the new microservices in Clojure and they still won't get it

People mistake self taught with understands complex software problems. Usually from what i've worked with, self taught is self taught to copy paste some commands into npm

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by wizofaus on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:28AM (#31895052)
Then their university/college has failed them. Learning how to think/learn/work independently should be the primary goal of tertiary education. It almost doesn't matter too much what your degree was in.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by guitarbill on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:16AM (#31894887)
Sure, or more likely having a CS degree or not does not strongly correlate with programming skill or software development skill.

Some people are good at programming, and do a CS degree to expand their capabilities. Some people do a CS degree solely for the career options (which to be clear is not necessarily bad). Some people didn't do CS degrees for whatever reason, but have thousands of hours in codebases, and know when to look up an algorithm or data structure.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by prepend on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:22AM (#31894975)
> I would bet the CS graduate is having a much easier time self-learning at home than the no-degree person who usually stops peoples work 12-15 times a day to get them to explain concepts or show them around the code, again...

I am a self taught and am pretty good at looking stuff up and figuring it out on my own, especially stuff that isn’t even in a manual. I figured this was pretty common since self taught is sort of forced to develop this skill.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by PragmaticPulp on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:42AM (#31894481)
> I think there's in general a "personality type" that does really well with remote in a certain kind of job and thrives with fairly asynchronous disconnected tasks, and on HN I think there's a bias towards seeing our whole industry that way.

Sites like HN are popular with people who prefer to socialize online and have chosen online communities to be a part of. Remote work is a natural extension of how they’ve built their online lives, which leads a lot of people to assume remote work is just natural for everyone.

But it’s not. Like you said, there are a lot of personality types that do not do well at all when working remote. Discussing those people has become difficult in online spaces where people like remote work and resist any suggestion that it’s not good for everyone. This has done more harm than good to the cause, IMO, because a lot of companies and teams went head-first into remote assuming it’d be an easy win. Yet on a company-wide scale, it’s not. It requires work, and training, and mentoring, and more resources just to get back to baseline in many cases. Companies that have deluded themselves into thinking it would be easy are then caught off guard and disappointed, leading to sudden reversals of remote work policies or slow depreciation of remote teams.

If we want remote to continue to grow, we need to shift the narrative away from “Its just better, period” to a more nuanced acknowledgement that it’s not for everyone and that it requires training and effort to unlock and maintain the benefits.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by heretogetout on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:59AM (#31894685)
I think the same arguments could be made if you swapped in-person for remote (nearly) throughout. There are those of us who prefer remote work and have been told that we must spend dozens to hundreds of hours a year just commuting in order to be more productive. "Finally", more companies are acknowledging our POV and optimal work style after years/decades of talking about it -- I think that's why there is so much enthusiasm around remote work these days.

The pendulum may have swung too far, on that I'll agree.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by cmrdporcupine on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:44AM (#31894514)
The funny thing is that I got my "start" in programming doing things remote. Open source development, and in the 90s, IRC, MUDs/MOOs, etc. I have all sorts of collaborators and friends I've actually never met in person. And we were pretty productive.

But that's not how $work went, when it went remote. All the open sores just festered and got worse. I know for a fact multiple projects delayed or faltered because of the remote move and the impact it had on productivity. And I'm sure it wasn't restricted to Google, but industry wide.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by civilized on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:00AM (#31894693)
I mostly agree with you, but we should remember that the shift to remote happened abruptly due to an unprecedented, immensely disruptive pandemic. This was not a controlled experiment where we can automatically attribute any issues that emerged after the shift to inherent flaws in remote work.

That said, I think your experiences with the limitations of remote are valid and shouldn't be dismissed, although I personally am extremely committed to remote.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by cmrdporcupine on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:29AM (#31895065)
I'm committed to remote, too, because the alternative (local pseudo-feudal crappy employers who generally underpay) is worse. But now on my own terms and with an employer I choose rather than the half-assed way that it was attempted at Google. And without my kids at home.

Probably, actually, I'll end up renting a desk out of home somewhere nearby.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by civilized on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:40AM (#31895202)
Sounds like we both survived the pandemic with young kids at home. I for one won't be getting the t-shirt.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:29AM (#31895064)
I agree with some qualifiers. I think some of us went all out with 'its just better' due to incessant onslaught of corporate propaganda telling me spending 2 hours in traffic is akin to meditation and 'me' time. Those ridiculous statements caused a lot of people to go into messaging overdrive that, arguably, lacked nuance.

Personally, I can attest that in person has some advantages over remote ( training comes to mind ), but I agree with the gist of the article that a lot depends on the audience ( some people don't need constant hand-holding ). And that is just two facets without touching the fact that not all jobs can be remote ( although a lot could be ) and some industries are ran by, well, old people who only know of one way to do things.

Is it harder? It can be. My team was fine, but some of us were already fighting for off-site schedule pre-pandemic.

After pandemic started, I made an obvious prediction that we will see some differentiation in companies ( full remote, hybrid, in person ). Workforce already voted for what they want ( remote jobs see 3-4 times the applicants ), but it is a larger cultural shift and companies would love to keep remote as a carrot for 'top performers'.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by parksy on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:52AM (#31894594)
As a senior developer, if working just in the office as was expected in the past I was distracted by things like a story about the weekend two colleagues are having in the background that sounds amusing, or the junior developer constantly spinning around on his chair to ask a question about something because "you're there". I always had time for that kind of thing but my productivity suffered and I was always frustrated by not getting enough done.

Working from home wasn't all roses either even though I got more work done. I was already doing a balance of WFH as a contractor before covid and that was working well for me, but when covid restrictions happened and I was WFH months on end, I really started to feel the lack of human contact and socialisation. That story about the weekend was something I suddenly craved to hear. My mental state would suffer because I had no life other than sleep, screen, sleep, screen, and then my productivity would start to decline as a result of declining perspective. I think I need some social contact just to stay calibrated.

Now I have a balance, a couple of days in the office, a couple of days at home, it works out well for me. I use the days in the office to catch up with the team, do any serious whiteboarding we need to do, and help out the juniors on the team with any questions they might have. I use my days at home to just crush out code with whatever music I want on in the background.

As you say I think it will shake out. I know some say that people have forgotten the value of hard work and there is a push to get people back in the office full time, but I think having people in the environment that suits their productivity the best is the way forward (edit - and to circle back to the point - taking care of mental states is important to maintaining productivity).

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by upupandup on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:31AM (#31895088)
> I really started to feel the lack of human contact and socialisation.

Was work the only place you got this? I'm so glad I don't have these extended socializations and don't miss them the slightest. In my experience, they were all just useless banters and people trying to form hierarchies/comparisons/political interest groups.

Any company that tries to move away from full WFH are holding themselves back. Given the option of working from home, most people will choose WFH.

Maybe its different for a single person who doesnt have much human interaction outside of work. Even so I feel like those interactions don't necessarily degrade significantly via video chats. You cant smell them through the screen and that might be a good thing.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by KaiserPro on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:41AM (#31895220)
> Given the option of working from home, most people will choose WFH.

most people who think like you will choose WFH. As the post clearly describes, they found the lack of human contact during the day hard to cope with.

The key thing here is that people need choice.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by SketchySeaBeast on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:24AM (#31895881)
I think COVID is an atypical representation of life with WFH. We also cut off a lot of other human contact as we were encourage to isolate and avoid contact. Even as an extreme introvert I found it got to me a bit at times, but I'm finding that now that I feel OK doing things again this has faded.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by fknorangesite on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:05PM (#31897463)
> but when covid restrictions happened and I was WFH months on end, I really started to feel the lack of human contact and socialisation.

I've been working remotely for nearly a decade, and something I've been saying over and over for the past 2 years is pandemic remote is not normal remote. The first half of your sentence here is doing a lot of work.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by giantg2 on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:24AM (#31894263)
Yep, I used to be more productive WFH when I was already acclimated on a team. When I joined a new team and it turned fully remote, my productivity dropped and it took me longer to come up to speed than if I were in the office.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by cmrdporcupine on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:31AM (#31894358)
Honestly, I was on a team @ Google that was doing consumer hardware. It had problems before WFH started, but it got 5X worse once we got sent home. The whole situation was highly unproductive, a combination of bad politics, but also a degraded tech stack with a pile of technical debt and a build system that took forever to finish, and then because of Google's "no source code on your laptop" policies (which they stubbornly wouldn't loosen during COVID) an additional 10 minutes to copy the binary to local and then push to device, and poor debugging tool support so the round trip was agony to test and prototype. It was just awful. And managers seemed to have no idea how to make it work.

So I decided to switch teams, to something that was friendlier for remote, more cloud-based backend stuff. A team that was doing daily standups. And it was sort of better. But acculturating into a new team while remote was painful. And the work unstimulating. And the depression and tedium from being stuck at home and dealing with kids in educational and emotional crisis too much.

So I just quit. Walked away from a 10 year high paying "high status" job. And I'm not the only one, friends of mine did the same thing. I suspect much of the "great resignation" was driven by the frankly irresponsible way that employers just didn't manage remote well.

I wasn't happy with $work before remote, but remote + a job with some bad aspects was like pouring naptha on a fire.

Getting a new (remote) job now after a few months off. I think it will be better.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by urthor on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:55AM (#31894637)
> no source code on your laptop

Cybersecurity policies and work from home has always been extraordinarily strange to me.

Optical character recognition exists. Big Corp, trust me, if I wanted to steal your stuff, I'd have it already.

Stop locking my laptop down, we both know that's mostly a scare tactic.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by giantg2 on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:16AM (#31894883)
I think the main concern is theft of the laptop. They do trust you. They don't want someone to have your drive with proprietary source, even if the drive is encrypted.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by prepend on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:28AM (#31895045)
Sounds like they should fix this with better laptop encryption. There’s many cheap methods to make source code on a stolen laptop useless. Using this as an excuse may mean that the org is stupid or lies to employees.

Since this is Google, I think this just means that they don’t trust employees. And that’s a bad situation.

If you can’t trust employees to not do bad things with the tools required for their jobs, then it’s going to result in unhappy and unproductive people.

It’s like not giving carpenters nail guns because someone killed someone.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by KaiserPro on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:46AM (#31895289)
> Since this is Google, I think this just means that they don’t trust employees

Since this is google, the repo is hundreds of terabytes.

Not only that, having lots of copies hanging around on laptops is a big risk, even with encryption. Considering that google's likely threat model involves state actors, not having code on laptops is a reasonable mitigation.

But I suspect the biggest issue is that most of the tooling is design to run on whatever version of linux Google runs, not OSX/Windows/ubuntu.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by prepend on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:00PM (#31897390)
As a developer, I don’t see a situation where I need the whole codebase, just the portion I work with.

State actors have security clearances for employees with equipment that allows them to contain state secrets on devices. This is a solved problem and Google not allowing any on device source code is not a security issue, it’s a control issue.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by KaiserPro on Monday June 27, 2022 @04:42PM (#31900526)
> As a developer, I don’t see a situation where I need the whole codebase, just the portion I work with.

Unless you are very special/lucky then your code will need all sorts of the repo to work.

One of the joys of working at a big tech company with a single repo is just how much shit is pulled in by your dependencies.

my code shouldn't need a custom C++ library that does BLAS 0.15% more efficiently than the opensource lib, its just moving data from one bucket to another. However, it does because of a massive chain of dependencies.

> State actors have security clearances for employees with equipment that allows them to contain state secrets on devices

What level of secret? and how many secrets? all of them? No. Security services don't generally allow people to store secrets on mobile devices, because they get lost a lot. They certainly don't allow all secrets ever stored in the DB to be carted around on >70k employee's laptops (of which at least 1 a day is stolen, most often in sleep so the disk encryption key still accessible)

Thats not to say that low-side devices don't ever contain secrets. They clearly do, but they are supposedly risk managed to limit the blast radius. ie, they need to have a good reason to have that secret, a time till destruction, and clear paper trail to see where and when that secret went.

Thats not really scalable to a repo with > 5 million files.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by giantg2 on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:43AM (#31895247)
"Sounds like they should fix this with better laptop encryption."

I'm not aware of any security experts that share this reasoning, if the information is truly sensitive and high value.

"There’s many cheap methods to make source code on a stolen laptop useless."

Such as?

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by prepend on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:02PM (#31897419)
I have a security clearance and follow protocols on my device to process sensitive data. Here’s something that came back fro Google, https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/iss_process/...

If my laptop is stolen and the thief doesn’t have my keys the data contained is worthless and isn’t a breach notification at all.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by giantg2 on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:32PM (#31897841)
Where is that in that document?
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by formercoder on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:59AM (#31894687)
The definition of “on laptop” is pretty ambiguous also
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by cmrdporcupine on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:31AM (#31895078)
It's also almost entirely arbitrary since Google lets iOS and Android app developers work off laptop (there isn't much a choice with iOS because the toolchain won't run on a gLinux workstation anyways).
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by giantg2 on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:49AM (#31894569)
Our company handled remote fairly well. The overall team/work organization has been poor whether remote or in office. In our case, the resignations have been driven by the fact that people leaving the company can get 1.5-2x their current salary. We have had a lot of other team member move to new teams at the same company too (hopefully I'm one of them in the next couple weeks).

Good luck at the new job!

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by Frost1x on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:42AM (#31894492)
My opinion is that the issue arises because of expectations and formalities that occur in remote environments over in person.

When I'm remote, every email I type, message I send, Jira update, commit comment, etc. are etched in stone for reference in all of perpetuity, time stamped and all. There's an unspoken expectation to be informed and expert in all things in many work environnments to avoid looking "incompetent" (which is absurd, everyone is ignorant about some things). Remote work creates a hostile environment that makes this even worse. It makes people think about if they really want to email or call this person to ask about something because they worry that not being aware or not knowing about something may come off to others as being incompetent (people are aware that certain questions and statements can show your hand of expertise). So if I happened to be half paying attention during a meeting with a client or executive, if some change in an effort occurred I happened to miss or be too busy to see, or if I'm dealing with new tech I'm not quite familiar with... I have to tread lightly.

In person, you meet people, you get body language, everyone is forced to speak on demand so competency and lack thereof become very clear in conversations. Expectations relax because if the head has no idea and no one else does and everyone has to reference it, well then, I'm not doing so bad. I'm not relying on looking at their cherry picked correspondence choices. Not only that, people are then more willing to communicate with people because they become more comfortable. They build relationships and they know it's OK to show their ignorance about some specific topic and that person is going to help them out a bit, mostly off the books. Not only that, communication in general becomes less formal. If I'm at the coffee machine and see Alice there and I had some question, I can just drop it in a friendly way. My intentions are more clear from body language, am I trying to assess her or am I really just trying to get the information I need to do my part. If it's trivial it's more natural just just say hey, I don't know how to do this thing, do you? Imagine sending that in an email or scheduling a conference call.

This means for teams that have already built that level of trust are at an advantage in remote. They're comfortably sending those messages to one another. They've met the person and can gauge their personality. For juniors it's probably petrifying in some cases because they want to look more skilled and knowledgable than they are because they often don't have a general understanding of the level of expectations people have of them so they want to do better and often want to make an impression.

The issue is that office culture often has a whole lot of competitive elements and people are more hesitant to communicate, it brings everything to a crawl. If work environments weren't always pressuring their labor force, people would be more willing to admit ignorance and or make informal communications necessary to speed things along in a more formal and recorded context, at least that's my opinion.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by ant_li0n on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:45AM (#31896186)
I definitely agree - the level of formality is significantly increased, even over Slack, because of the "permanence" you referenced.

I switched teams 4 months ago (old team dissolved in a merger) into an area where I don't have any experience (Django backend -> "DevOps-y" microservices in Go and infrastructure type stuff). These are skills I want to possess and I was grateful for the opportunity. Unfortunately the outcome has not been what I had hoped. I'm trying hard to teach myself but I'm missing so much. My teammates are all significantly more senior and are extremely busy. My experience and reputation in other areas feels like it actually hurts me -- am I not actually a competent programmer, like I thought I was?

Worse is I feel worried about switching teams again. What if I don't succeed there, either? Will I need another 4-6 months to ramp up and gain knowledge? I don't want to end up a pariah, or be seen as an incompetent developer who can't be relied upon.

I'm applying to jobs at other companies now. I know I'll face many of the same challenges there as well, but I don't really know what else to do.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by daniel-cussen on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:51AM (#31894593)
Driving is dangerous. It's no joke, you can get killed if you slip every time you go on a highway. Insanely dangerous. And more work than work itself, the commute is the worst part of people's days.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by cmrdporcupine on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:04AM (#31895563)
It was destroying my health. But in my case it was honestly partially driven by personal choice to live rural rather than live in the town where our office was. But having made that choice at the start, 10 years in it started to become untenable.

But now in theory, at least, I don't have to make that compromise.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by cactus2093 on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:09PM (#31896600)
One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this discussion recently is that on every single engineering team I've worked on in-person pre-pandemic, synchronous interruptions were a significant frustration. Remember how we all used to bemoan open concept offices? Every team developed some version of a rule around not coming up and tapping people on the shoulder, like setting an expectation to reach out over chat first or a headphone rule not to interrupt someone if their headphones were on.

It's weird that this experience, which I know was very widespread in tech, is completely missing these days in discussions of remote vs in-office. People urging a return a to office are even explicitly bringing up the ability to come up and tap someone on the shoulder as a selling point of being in-office, ignoring the fact that most people have always hated this.

As far as sitting down and working together collaboratively, I have found in the past 2 years that video calls work perfectly well for this. We've made an explicit effort to reduce the number of recurring, scheduled meetings but also to encourage more ad-hoc, collaborative meetings to work on things together synchronously.

I think being an extrovert and missing the social aspect of working together in an office, is a perfectly legitimate reason to want to go back to an in-office job. In an ideal world I think every remote team should have an in-person off-site event for a couple of days every few months for purely social and team-building reasons. But I'm very skeptical about claims that you can't collaborate to get work done as well remotely because my own experience has been so different.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by xorbax on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:51AM (#31894585)
I think part of it is the 'junior' part. If you have a strong workflow and confidence with what you're doing then it's easier to be independent
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by upupandup on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:25AM (#31894998)
I just don't find this argument convincing. The tasks does not change because its remote, rather the costs have gone up to hire junior developers while costs to increase producitivity in existing devs have dropped significantly.

Namely, github copilot, which removed a lot of "hey junior can you write a class to talk to this CRUD api" to "hey github generate snippets of boilerplate code that I can tweak to my exact needs"

Lot of companies are realizing that their existing senior developers are now armed with this amazing tool and that its leading to faster turnarounds. The door appears to be closing for entry positions that used to take in high school drop outs, code bootcamp grads or single moms.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by anon2020dot00 on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:33AM (#31895107)
I don't agree that copilot will hurt junior hiring; Co-pilot is just a tool that even juniors can use to make them productive even quicker.

In fact, I think it will allow juniors to contribute faster and for high-school drop outs, code bootcamp grads or single moms to get hired more easily since instead of a steep learning curve, copilot allows them to quickly produce.

I'd agree with the argument if there was no such thing as entropy and senior developers were a static resource that didn't depreciate but every company is going to need new blood just because the seniors are eventually going to retire or move to different companies for their own growth.

The big appeal of juniors is usually low salary and willingness to work long hours and so juniors will often be attractive to companies.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by ensignavenger on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:34AM (#31894391)
I wonder if it is really so much down to just personality, or if training, process changes, and better tools could largely ameliorate the differences?

I have a hunch that as more work shifts remote, new ways of working will evolve.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by TigeriusKirk on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:31AM (#31895083)
Working remote is a skill. It's not something you automatically know how to do, it's something you learn how to do.

It takes time and effort as an individual, and more time and effort as an organization.

If you don't put in that time and effort, you won't be good at it, like any other skill.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by malfist on Monday June 27, 2022 @09:39AM (#31894449)
What a lot of people don't realize is offices are largely a by product of industrialization. Prior to that, most operations were either family ran and ran out of a home, or even when a company employed non-family members, they often paid piece work. So the employee would work from home, and then deliver their work to their employer and get paid per piece they produced.

What's old will be new again.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by tomtheelder on Monday June 27, 2022 @10:57AM (#31895451)
I do think a lot of it is driven by personality types, but I would attribute that more to personal need for close contact and socialization. I will never thrive in a remote environment- not because I can't manage focus or work asynchronously or anything, but because it makes me extremely depressed. It's impossible to keep my productivity up as my mental state degrades.
Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by cmrdporcupine on Monday June 27, 2022 @11:05AM (#31895584)
Yeah it's very rough. Even having family in the house with me, I need outside socializing.

Even when we were able to shift back to hybrid in-person, I'd drive in the 45 minutes get to the office and find basically nobody there. It was just as isolating, but totally pointless.

Re:How to set junior employees up for success in remote by ensignavenger on Monday June 27, 2022 @01:48PM (#31898074)
I know this can be a real challenge for some. Do you think it would help to have a nearby a co-op work space type setting, where you would have others around and you could come and go as desired?