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Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by jitl on Monday May 09, 2022 @11:48AM (#31315644)
Preview is one of those essential things that sets macOS apart from the other operating systems, and contributes to that “Mac has good UX” vibe. Last time I opened the Windows equivalent, it tried to sell me on Microsoft’s PDF-alike format… and asked me to connect Office365.

Another tiny macOS feature I love is that you can drop a file icon on any Open or Save dialog to select the file in the dialog. On other OSs, this moves the file to the directory shown in the dialog, or does nothing. On Windows, I install Listary to get the same features https://www.listary.com/

There are so many other little macOS things that make it easier to work in the GUI - but on HN they’re all overshadowed by the big “wow window management on Mac is 90s unless you install an app” issue, which makes me sad. I’m hoping that the post-Ive Apple - an Apple more comfortable with “pro” users and beauty in utility versus form - will try to fix that one… and bring back all the good Mission Control stuff from Snow Leopard (which IMO is the greatest OS ever released).

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by wlesieutre on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:04PM (#31315875)
I can't stand when I have to deal with a PDF on Windows on my office computer where I have the free copy of Acrobat.

You can right click on a page and it's got "rotate" buttons up at the top. But when you click on one, it takes a second to think about it and then opens a popup to offer you a free 7-day trial of the Pro version. Rotating a page is too powerful a feature for Adobe to not try and sell it to you.

https://imgur.com/a/oAYOoqG

What you can do is "Rotate View Clockwise" three times, way down at the bottom of the menu. It applies to the entire document instead of a single page, and it doesn't persist next time you open the file. Works in a pinch but it's deliberately shitty.

Microsoft even had their own PDF viewing software with Windows 8, but instead of improving it to get their user experience one step closer to Apple's, they killed it off to make more people launch Edge by accident.

I can only assume there's a KPI somewhere in Microsoft HQ tracking how many times Edge is launched, and making that graph go up and to the right has become their number one corporate priority.

It would explain the taskbar's search screen, the "news and weather" bullshit, pressing F1 in Explorer opening a Bing search for "How to get help in Windows" instead of just giving you help, and most every other design choice they've made in the last couple of years.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by GraphenePants on Monday May 09, 2022 @01:09PM (#31316776)
Correct, you get what you pay for. Acrobat Pro supports advanced rotations for only $14.99 per month.

https://www.adobe.com/acrobat/pricing.html

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by eadmund on Monday May 09, 2022 @01:20PM (#31316933)
> Acrobat Pro supports advanced rotations for only $14.99 per month.

That right there is a peak-2022 quote, alright!

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by tbrock on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:37PM (#31322347)
Why doesn’t Microsoft take the hint and make a decent pdf viewer / editor thingy?

They seemed to get the hint on the terminal finally…

Handle basic viewing, editing, signatures. Etc…

While we are at it a GTK one would be great in Gnome too…

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by behnamoh on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @01:35AM (#31323808)
my guess is that Terminal, powerToys, and WSL were approved by MS management because they wold contribute to more sales to advanced users who would otherwise choose Linux. the same cannot be said about PDF viewers.

I also find it strange that MS keeps pushing people to use Edge as a PDF reader. only goes to show how valuable user data is, or rather, how desperate MS is for such data.

> As such, Microsoft tries as much as possible to avoid "bringing in" any features that are currently being sold as products by companies in their developer ecosystem (which would deprive those developers of revenue, and thus deprive them of revenue.) Acrobat charges to rotate images? Better not offer native image rotation.

to be fair, Apple does the same. lots of functionalities that you would expect from macOS are left for third party apps to provide. for example, changing external monitor volume, a proper window management that snaps windows to edges/corners, remembering the position of apps in different desktops, enabling font smoothing, enabling HiDPI on external displays, limiting apps’ CPU usage, etc.

Each of them costs like $15 which adds up to hundreds. But even if money wasn’t a problem, it’d still be concerning to use hacky methods that are sometimes closed source too.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by derefr on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @01:25AM (#31323763)
As Balmer put it: developers, developers, developers.

In other words: the purpose of (consumer) Windows isn't to make money for Microsoft; the purpose of (consumer) Windows is to create a sales channel — "Windows users" — for Windows developers like Adobe to sell their Windows software products into.

Microsoft then makes their money off those very same Windows developers, through corporate Windows licensing, Office subscriptions, Azure, etc.

As such, Microsoft tries as much as possible to avoid "bringing in" any features that are currently being sold as products by companies in their developer ecosystem (which would deprive those developers of revenue, and thus deprive them of revenue.) Acrobat charges to rotate images? Better not offer native image rotation.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by archduck on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:23PM (#31345989)
This is the impression I have from Wordpress as well. Some of the most basic features you would expect a blogging platform or a brochure site creator to have out of the box are conspicuously missing, and I strongly suspect the reason for their absence is NOT for the sake of keeping the base WP install small, but rather because there are paid plugins in the Wordpress Plugin Directory which fulfill those basic functions, thereby providing a marketplace to incentivize WP development, regardless of how basic the functionality that you're looking for is. There is indeed a vibrant WP marketplace as a consequence of this, but should I really have to install a 3rd party library to get simple modal windows? Regardless of how much popups suck, they're something that every commercial client asks for at some point, and instead of having a single way of doing it which is official, well-maintained, and trustworthy, you have to shop around and try out every mystery devshop's kneecapped freemium version, many of which pelt you with banner ads and/or conflict with another shitty-ass plugin! It's very much a developer-centric way of doing things. Fine, that's a worthy cause, especially since Wordpress is free; but more often than not, the best solution is to invest in one of the plugin "suites" which do more than one thing without interfering with other things. As much as I like composition and "do one thing and do it well," if you try to go down that path with Wordpress plugins, you're asking for it.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by manicdee on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:41AM (#31337681)
The opposite of “sherlocking”
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by layer8 on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:58PM (#31316616)
You can use the Adobe Reader Classic Track, which is still on the feature level of 2020 and allows counterclockwise rotation: https://www.adobe.com/devnet-docs/acrobatetk/tools/ReleaseNo...
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by wlesieutre on Monday May 09, 2022 @01:45PM (#31317298)
Unfortunately doesn't seem to be the case. All I have is "rotate clockwise" and it's just like Reader DC in that it rotates the view of the entire document rather than actually rotating a page.

It's missing the rotation arrow buttons that bug you to buy a subscription, so that's a bit nicer than the current Reader DC release. I assume this is just because it lags behind the main release and they'll be rolled in as a future update on the Classic track?

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by layer8 on Monday May 09, 2022 @02:00PM (#31317529)
View > Show/Hide > Toolbar Items > Show Page Display Tools > Counterclockwise
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by wlesieutre on Monday May 09, 2022 @02:03PM (#31317576)
Yes, that rotates your view of every page in the document. It can't rotate a page independently and even if you wanted to rotate every page you can't save the change back to the PDF file because it's functionally "rotate view" even though they hadn't renamed it that yet in 2020.

Appreciate the attempt to help, but Acrobat Reader is just shitty.

I know it's a deliberate choice to be useless in pursuit of selling more subscriptions, but it's hard to cut them a lot of slack for having a worse free PDF tool than what Apple was shipping for free on all their computers more than 20 years ago.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by layer8 on Monday May 09, 2022 @02:12PM (#31317703)
Well, Adobe Reader is a viewer, not an editor (that’s Adobe Acrobat). For light editing like rotating pages I’d recommend the free version of PDF-XChange Editor: https://www.tracker-software.com/product/pdf-xchange-editor (Persistent rotation is on the “Organize” tab.)

It’s easy for Apple because they don’t sell a competing product. Adobe has to balance providing a useful free viewer against a paid editor (or payed extra functions). There’s certainly a lot I’d like to see improved/included in Adobe Reader, but I also recognize that they are in a different market position than Apple.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by wlesieutre on Monday May 09, 2022 @03:05PM (#31318366)
If someone hands me a stack of papers to read and half of the pages are upside down, I consider orienting the pages so they all have the text right-side-up to be part of reading it. I understand Adobe doesn't have hardware sales to prop up their software but I think it's pretty unreasonable to charge $15/month to rotate pages within a document.

They do let you fill in forms and comment in the free version, even though that's not strictly speaking under the definition of "reading".

I'm currently rotating pages by sending them to my iPad and using Documents by Readdle. Not sure if that's part of the free features or because I bought their PDF Expert and some of the PDF editing capability gets shared across apps.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by layer8 on Monday May 09, 2022 @03:44PM (#31318810)
Yeah, I'm not going to argue about that particular feature -- I mean Adobe Reader does allow you to rotate the page display for viewing purposes, just not in the way you'd prefer -- but the broader perspective is that Adobe roughly differentiates between authoring a document and using a document -- authoring is what costs money. Form fill-in is not authoring, and under the hood it's actually more similar to commenting/highlighting (adding stuff "on top" of the normal page content), which are also reader/viewer functions.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by wlesieutre on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:09PM (#31319087)
So my real problem here is the disconnect between Adobe's "rotate view clockwise" being a document-wide operation, and the fact that actual PDF documents don't have consistent page orientation throughout.

It's usually that all of the pages are consistently oriented as portrait, but some of them actually have landscape content.

The incorrect portrait page orientation was probably done on purpose to keep printers from screwing it up, and rotating a piece of paper to look at it barely requires a thought. No big deal if you're printing it.

But the ease of looking at a single page sideways and then going back to the original rotation doesn't map to reading it on a computer screen with document-wide rotate commands, and they really should've sucked it up and let me fix individual pages. Even if it's a temporary "view" change and not something I can save back to the file.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by samstave on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:35PM (#31316315)
What I hate about software like PDF viewers is that they are akin to:

Here I printed your manuscript, but in order to read it, you need to pay me for these special glasses to see the ink.

Oh you want a change? Pay me for these special gloves so you may handle the pages and reorganize them as you like.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by wlesieutre on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:50PM (#31316518)
Agreed, on a Mac I feel like a PDF document is a stack of paper that I can rearrange, copy, rotate, and otherwise handle however I want to.

On Windows it's more like a hardcover bound book that I can download and attach to an email to share with someone, but god forbid I want to change anything.

They can make me use Windows in the office, but next time something dies in my home PC I'm just going to sell the rest of it for parts and replace it with a Steam Deck.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by dylan604 on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:51PM (#31319550)
I sometimes wonder if Preview being so much easier than Acrobat isn't an intentional poke at Adobe for all the times Adobe strayed from the one true path of Apple. That whole skipping a version of software release because Adobe didn't pay attention to words from up on high to quite using deprecated language surely didn't sit well.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by OnlyMortal on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:43PM (#31320176)
It originated on NeXTStep which used Display Postscript.

The graphics primitives still apply to macOS.

[dead]
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by dylan604 on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:30PM (#31322296)
I've tried on multiple attempts now to decipher WTF this means.

Essentially, Adobe === BAD in your opinion, is that it?

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by timeon on Monday May 09, 2022 @02:50PM (#31318202)
Comparing to Preview, just opening Acrobat is pain.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by abawany on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:02PM (#31320399)
I recommend trying SumatraPDF - it also supports epub.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by asiachick on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @12:05AM (#31323333)
I think preview on MacOS is great but when I'm on windows (and 95% of the time I'm on Mac) I open PDFs in Chrome (Firefox would probably work as well). Both have a built in sandboxed reader.

In fact pretty much the only time I open a PDF in preview is to merge 1 or more PDFs (show the thumbnails, copy and paste them from one to the other).

Otherwise I never use Preview for PDFs and I reference tons of PDF based specs.

On the other hand I use Preview to quickly crop or markup screenshots all the time.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by pimlottc on Monday May 09, 2022 @11:57AM (#31315772)
Another great related feature is how easy it is to “print” to Preview and save as PDF. It makes it very easy to save copies of confirmations, payment receipts, etc when sites don’t provide a PDF link.

If you haven't tried it, make sure you are printing using the system dialog, and select "Open in Preview" in the drop-down list in the lower-left corner.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by Anechoic on Monday May 09, 2022 @02:04PM (#31317589)
Another great related feature is how easy it is to “print” to Preview

BTW, if you are trying to save a protected PDF from Adobe reader that won't let you save it in an unprotected format that's compatible with Preview, there is "print" document trick you can try since Adobe Reader blocks the system print dialog: pause the queue for your printer (if you don't have a printer, just "install" a network postscript printer), and print the document. The document is then saved to a non-secured temp PDF file in /var/spool/cups, to a filename starting with "d" (ls -l -t to find the most recent file). That file is normally deleted after being sent to the printer, but my pausing the print queue, the file is there long enough to copy somewhere. Rename the document, and you're good to go.

This is a trick from the Mac OS X Hints days, and still works, as of at least Catalina.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by kergonath on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:48PM (#31316498)
> Another great related feature is how easy it is to “print” to Preview and save as PDF.

It's an OS-wide feature. Any application can print to PDF without specific support from that app.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by astrange on Monday May 09, 2022 @02:07PM (#31317639)
Well, you need specific support if you have custom views or views that draw bitmap images, otherwise it won't look great.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by kergonath on Monday May 09, 2022 @02:47PM (#31318165)
But then it won’t look good in print either, right? The pdf is just a file with what would have otherwise gone to the printer.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by astrange on Monday May 09, 2022 @07:38PM (#31321342)
Sure, but I think "export to PDF" might actually be a more common feature than printing at this point.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by kergonath on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @02:18AM (#31324051)
Fair enough
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by lotsofpulp on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:27PM (#31316183)
Is there any reason it took so long for Microsoft to include print to PDF in Windows other than bad management?
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by dchest on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:35PM (#31316310)
I believe this was due to Adobe threatening them with a lawsuit https://betanews.com/2006/06/02/adobe-to-sue-microsoft-for-p...
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by lotsofpulp on Monday May 09, 2022 @01:02PM (#31316676)
According to the article, Adobe helped Apple? But threatened to sue Microsoft? I wonder what the details are.

>However, Adobe has freely offered the specifications on PDF to other companies. Apple’s Mac OS X operating system has built in support for reading and saving of PDF files.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by jfk13 on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:43PM (#31316417)
Or instead of "Open in Preview" (and then save it somewhere from Preview.app), you can directly use "Save to Web Receipts" from the Print dialog.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by mortenjorck on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:08PM (#31322110)
Such a great feature. I’ve been using it for years and have what is effectively a filing cabinet of documents in digital form.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by bigtex on Monday May 09, 2022 @01:54PM (#31317426)
I think that has been a standard feature since at least OS X 10.2.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by JKCalhoun on Monday May 09, 2022 @01:57PM (#31317493)
Yes, when Apple bought NeXT (I know, more like the other way around) they wanted the graphics model to follow something akin to NeXT's — which was based around Display Postscript. The modern equivalent was of course PDF.

If you could render into a PDF context with your graphics engine (CoreGraphics) you would have a near print-ready document. (You still need to pass along additional info regarding whether to print duplex, number of copies, etc.)

So anyway, Save to PDF, Open in Preview were basically free.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by lostlogin on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:17PM (#31316034)
My passport application photo kept getting rejected as my eyes were ‘too dark’.

I tried various things without luck, then in a rage, I copied my ‘light’ eye and stuck it over my shaded eye.

I thought the passport photo submission tool would let me review before accepting an upload. Nope, off it went.

The passport has worked in several countries, USA, UK and others.

Thanks Preview.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by wildrhythms on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:14PM (#31319846)
Ancient companies requiring I print out a form, sign it physically, scan it, send it back... I just open it in Preview, use the text annotation tool and some random cursive font, "sign it", re-export, done. I haven't owned a printer or scanner in 10 years.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by luhn on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:17PM (#31320574)
It has a feature now where you can scan your signature and pop it into any document on demand. Super useful.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by DanielleMolloy on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:05PM (#31321585)
Not just that, you can sign directly on the trackpad. And store that signature for later use.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by cromka on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @04:16AM (#31324742)
Or with your finger on an iPhone, or a pen on an iPad.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by dtgriscom on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:13PM (#31321642)
And "scan" means "hold up to the webcam and take a picture." No scanner needed.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by 7speter on Monday May 09, 2022 @11:59PM (#31323296)
This isn't really too hard these days, at least in theory, since you can use your phones camera to scan the doc.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by hnlmorg on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:36PM (#31316331)
> Another tiny macOS feature I love is that you can drop a file icon on any Open or Save dialog to select the file in the dialog. On other OSs, this moves the file to the directory shown in the dialog, or does nothing.

The reason other OS's don't support that macOS feature is because their open and save dialogue is usable on its own. In my opinion the open and save dialogue is one of the worst designed interfaces on macOS (and easily the worst open and save dialogue across all of the popular desktop environments). The fact that it's "killer feature" is having to use another file navigator to find the target and then drag that file into the first dialogue (ie dialogue that should have been used to find the file to begin with) is more damning than anything.

If there were two things I wish Apple would add in macOS, it is:

1. draggable hotspots (like in Windows and KDE)

2. a completely redesigned open and save dialogue that works a little more like Windows and KDE

I can live (and even like some of) macOS's idiosyncrasies. But those two irritate the hell out of me on an almost daily basis.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by kergonath on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:46PM (#31316467)
> The reason other OS's don't support that macOS feature is because their open and save dialogue is usable on its own. In my opinion the open and save dialogue is one of the worst designed interfaces on macOS (and easily the worst open and save dialogue across all of the popular desktop environments). The fact that it's "killer feature" is having to use another file navigator to find the target and then drag that file into the first dialogue (ie dialogue that should have been used to find the file to begin with) is more damning than anything.

It is not a browser, or a file manager. It is a file selector. So it allows you to select files, not do some file management. It is not rocket science. I get bitten at least a couple of times a week on Windows when I stupidly drag and drop the file I want to open, and instead of the sensible behaviour it gets just moved to whatever the app thought the default directory should be for its open file dialogs.

> a completely redesigned open and save dialogue that works a little more like Windows and KDE

Hell, no! Let me double that: hell fucking no.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by hnlmorg on Monday May 09, 2022 @02:53PM (#31318239)
> It is not a browser, or a file manager. It is a file selector.

But you're selecting the file in a file manager and then dragging it into your "file selector". That whole dialogue then becomes completely redundant because you might as well just drag that file into the application window without having to click "open".

> I get bitten at least a couple of times a week on Windows when I stupidly drag and drop the file I want to open

If you drag the file into the text area it will work as you wish. Or you could just drag the file into the application -- a lot of applications will support that and open the file without displaying the file open dialogue.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by kergonath on Monday May 09, 2022 @03:39PM (#31318760)
> But you're selecting the file in a file manager and then dragging it into your "file selector". That whole dialogue then becomes completely redundant because you might as well just drag that file into the application window without having to click "open".

Sometimes. Others the dialog is how you set things like the format of the file or some import options. Or you need a multiple selection and dropping a bunch of files just opens them separately. Sometimes you can input a regex and you just need to quickly go to the right directory. Sometimes you need to select a file to import it into another document and not open it. It is also damn convenient to just drop the folder where you want a new file to be in a “save as” dialog without having to navigate from dog knows where. There are plenty of use cases.

What is redundant is a file manager in an import dialog. There is a full blown file manager that’s always going to be better just a click away.

> If you drag the file into the text area it will work as you wish.

In theory, yes. In practice it’s hit and miss as developers don’t seem to care about using native widgets (that, and the fact that native widgets have vastly different capabilities on Windows thanks to years of cruft they cannot remove).

[edit] sorry if it sounded harsh; I have nothing against you. It’s just that the file selection dialogs are a particular pain point on Windows and Linux.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by hnlmorg on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:01PM (#31318999)
> Sometimes

None of that prevents Apple from building a more featureful dialogue

> In theory, yes. In practice it’s hit and miss as developers don’t seem to care about using native widgets (that, and the fact that native widgets have vastly different capabilities on Windows thanks to years of cruft they cannot remove).

I agree it sucks when developers roll their own but that’s not really relevant because we are comparing two very specific dialogues and not the wider OS ecosystem. (I’d use macOS over Windows any day of the week. But that doesn’t mean I have to love everything about macOS).

> sorry if it sounded harsh

You didn’t and we are good :) It’s been really interesting hearing another viewpoint.

> It’s just that the file selection dialogs are a particular pain point on Windows and Linux.

For you. :) Personally I think KDE got it just about perfect.

I guess this just goes to show how completely different two peoples preferences can be.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by SllX on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:21PM (#31320609)
It’s a shortcut that comes in handy when you operate in deep file hierarchies and can’t be bothered to memorize the path.

That said there’s even easier ways to get there:

Just navigate, the sidebar will reflect what’s in your Finder sidebar so you can use that as a shelf if you’re going into one specific directory a lot for your work. It’s a dynamic environment, you don’t have to treat it like it’s static.

Or: hit Command-Shift-G. This will allow you to type the path with tab completion.

Dragging the folder in is for when you’re operating in the Finder and another application and rather than navigating you want to just drag the proxy in to go right there. It’s a shortcut, but depending on the task it’s not necessarily the most efficient way to do it.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by cassianoleal on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @04:52AM (#31324937)
> Dragging the folder in is for when you’re operating in the Finder and another application

Not only Finder! You can hover over the filename on the top bar of any application and drag the icon from there as well. It works for any application where you have a file opened.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by nautilius on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @09:31AM (#31326913)
Is there a pattern to it? I find it an amazing feature, but also find that it doesn't always works. Do I have to do something before I can drag the icon?
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by kergonath on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @10:33AM (#31327597)
In recent versions you might have to hover for the icon to appear, which is infuriating.

Except for that, all proxy icons should be dragable without problem if they are from the native widgets (so no guarantee for misguided developers who reimplemented it to look like the native one without actually implementing its behaviour). There might be a small delay between the moment you click on it and the moment you can drag it, to avoid mistakes (I think that was the case at some point, not really sure now).

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by nautilius on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:03PM (#31334214)
Awesome, thank you!
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by adrusi on Monday May 09, 2022 @03:23PM (#31318565)
Sometimes the application doesn't open files you drag onto its windows, and sometimes you want to select a file but not open it.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by Klonoar on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:26PM (#31321773)
Absolute hard second on this, it works well and doesn't need to be changed.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by hedgehog on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:44PM (#31316431)
I gotta say, for all of my (many, many) criticisms of macOS the save dialog seems fine to me. I almost always have the destination folder already open in Finder, if anything the improvement would be to put a list of Finder's open folders into the save dialog. Dragging it over works ok though.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by kitsunesoba on Monday May 09, 2022 @01:33PM (#31317113)
A list of open Finder windows in the sidebar would indeed be lovely.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by sixstringtheory on Monday May 09, 2022 @02:31PM (#31317962)
Not quite that, but macOS' new tabs-in-windows is close. I personally don't love keeping them all in tabs in a single window, but I can always select the Window > Merge All Windows option to gather all my disparate Finder windows together for this purpose.

(ETA: This wouldn't work in the save dialog though, I missed that detail)

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by adrusi on Monday May 09, 2022 @03:20PM (#31318535)
The macOS open/save dialog is almost identical to the Finder UI, what would you change about it? The reason it's helpful to be able to drag a file from somewhere else into the open/save dialog is that you often already have the file open somewhere. A common workflow: navigate to a document in finder, edit it in some app, save it, upload it to a web form. Similarly if you have a path to the file handy somewhere, you can hit ⌘⇧G and paste it.

And while I can see how reasonable people can disagree about the virtues of Mac/Windows/KDE open/save dialogs, Gnome definitely has the worst. Personally my KDE experience is limited, but of the other three I prefer macOS by a wide margin.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by hnlmorg on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:40PM (#31319413)
I almost never have Finder open. I usually think "I want to create a spreadsheet" so I'll open Excel and then look for the document. Or I'll be doing some dev work so I'll navigate there in the terminal and then open code via `code .`

I think some of that habit might have stemmed from the fact that I don't like Finder much. I don't like the hotkeys (eg [ENTER] to rename), I don't like it's layout. As much as I disliked Microsoft's "lets turn explorer.exe into Internet Explorer", the editable address bar is actually really nice (you can see precisely where you are and quickly change it to where you want to be).

I'd say Dolphin (KDE) is probably the perfect file manager for me. It's got a terminal baked in (which automatically changes directories when you navigate in the GUI) so you can mix and match GUI and CLI operations. You can add tabs so your file manager can be used as a session (eg if you're working in multiple directories for a specific task or project, you can have one file manager instance open for that task but different tabs per directory). There's so much I love about it. But it's also the polar opposite of Finder, which might explain why I don't like Finder much.

I do completely agree with you about Gnome though.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by vvillena on Monday May 09, 2022 @03:44PM (#31318805)
This is an interesting chicken-and-egg problem. It could be said that other OSs had to add lots of file management features to their file selector dialog because relying on drag-and-drop from another application was unfeasible.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by saagarjha on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:38PM (#31316357)
What do you not like about the existing dialog?
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by hnlmorg on Monday May 09, 2022 @03:07PM (#31318395)
Navigating is a pain. eg you cannot navigate to any "hidden" directories and cannot you type paths in the "address bar" nor the file name input selector.

There's a few other little annoyances but I can't recall them right now (currently awaiting delivery of a new MacBook Pro so I'm back to running Linux for the time being).

The dialogue annoys me enough that I've just gotten into the habit of opening everything from the command line instead. In fact Finder is pretty poor for those things too (I've lost count of the amount of times I've ran `open .` to launch Finder in the path I want rather than navigating there via the GUI). But at least Finder does 90+% of what I want, even if I do have to turn to the command line a lot. Whereas I find the open dialogue to be almost completely useless.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by Rebelgecko on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:09PM (#31319090)
You can just start typing to go to a folder. E.G. type "/tmp↵" will move the panel to that directory
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by jitl on Monday May 09, 2022 @03:56PM (#31318941)
- Cmd-Shift-G opens a fuzzy complete path input

- “Show hidden files” is a preference you can change.

Once you’re comfortable with the CLI and know the paths you care about for a task, in what cases do you prefer a GUI open dialog on other systems?

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by hnlmorg on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:28PM (#31319290)
> Cmd-Shift-G opens a fuzzy complete path input

The problem is that's not going to be an easy thing to remember. It's not an obvious hotkey and nor is it even memorable that the hotkey even exists. There's no UI hints that it does. And when you use hundreds of different pieces of software every day, from CLI tools to complicated desktop applications, there's no way anyone can remember every single hotkey and flag for them. This is why tools like fzf and sophisticated shell auto-completion exist. They've at least recognised that this stuff needs to be discoverable somehow.

In fact that is my biggest annoyance with Apple's UIs. There's so much hidden functionality that is almost impossible to discover (and a lot of it is incredibly easy to forget again too). For example I was using an iPhone for years before I discovered you could move the caret by long pressing on the space bar. Before then I was cursing how much easier it was to edit text in Android because I just assumed there wasn't a precise way to move the caret in iOS. I felt like such an idiot that it took an internet meme to teach me to use my phone...but then I remember that it shouldn't have taken a meme to make people aware that feature existed.

> "Show hidden files” is a preference you can change.

I don't want to change a preference. I want to be able to view hidden files on demand. Most of the time hidden files are better off hidden. That's actually an example of sensible defaults. However it's also useful to be able to toggle them on from the open dialogue when needed.

> Once you’re comfortable with the CLI and know the paths you care about for a task, in what cases do you prefer a GUI open dialog on other systems?

It's the other way around, I grew up on text only systems and had to learn to adapt to GUIs. I still struggle with them even now (which is why I hate it when you're expected to stumble upon functionality by chance).

As for when I prefer to use the GUI open dialogue? It's when I'm already using the GUI for something. Like emails, spreadsheets, word processing. Boring stuff we all wish we didn't have to do but cannot escape completely. I'd rather not have to context switch away from the GUI and back into iTerm just to open a file.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by chipotle_coyote on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:02PM (#31322062)
> The problem is that's not going to be an easy thing to remember. It's not an obvious hotkey and nor is it even memorable that the hotkey even exists. There's no UI hints that it does.

While I think Apple's UIs do have annoyingly hidden functionality, this particular one is something you can learn by using Finder -- it's the keyboard shortcut for "Go to Folder…" in the "Go" menu. A lot of the "View" and "Go" keyboard shortcuts there work in file picker boxes, but it's true you're not going to be able to do actual file management there.

A lot of "hidden" keyboard shortcuts in macOS really aren't hidden, though; they're either right there in the menus or in the Help menu. If you're in Finder, the first item in that menu is "macOS Help," which opens a user guide…and that User Guide talks about a lot of things. And, it also links to the fairly extensive "Mac keyboard shortcuts" support article. This may be the technical writer in me, but I kinda wish people would read manuals a little more than they do. :)

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201236

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by rovolo on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:14PM (#31319843)
> The problem is that's not going to be an easy thing to remember.

'G' for "Go to folder". cmd-G is standardized as "Find Next" across apps, so you add "shift" to do an app-specific behavior.

> I want to be able to view hidden files on demand.

cmd-shift-'.' . The '.' matches the prefix for auto-hidden files.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by chipotle_coyote on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:47PM (#31321932)
> cmd-shift-'.' . The '.' matches the prefix for auto-hidden files.

This is definitely not behavior I'm seeing in either file picking dialogs or Finder windows.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by rovolo on Thursday May 12, 2022 @05:31PM (#31360352)
I tested it again locally and it's working for me. Just for you to double check, here's an article with pictures:

https://osxdaily.com/2018/02/12/show-hidden-files-mac-keyboa...

[dead]
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by hnlmorg on Monday May 09, 2022 @02:56PM (#31318259)
I hate Windows! Just because I happen to think specific UI elements are better than macOS it doesn't mean I prefer Windows as a platform. In fact I consider such opinions as being more objective than the "apple can do no wrong" fanboyism that often gets posted.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by alsetmusic on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:44PM (#31316425)
> I’m hoping that the post-Ive Apple - an Apple more comfortable with “pro” users and beauty in utility versus form - will try to fix that one… and bring back all the good Mission Control stuff from Snow Leopard (which IMO is the greatest OS ever released).

I wouldn't hold my breath. They've been gradually hiding controls behind buttons and popovers. The proxy icon (folder or document icon in the title bar of a window) was hidden by default in I believe Big Sur. There's a `defaults` command to make it visible at all times in Monterey, but hiding it is a foolish design choice on Apple's part.

Look at the debacle with Safari last year. The software is form over function for the last few years.

I can't remember the name of the guy everyone blames for this, but he talks about minimalism and reducing app UI in favor of putting content forward during OS feature reveals. The approach is completely backwards, imo.

BTW: thanks for the tip about Listary. I'll check it out.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by JKCalhoun on Monday May 09, 2022 @02:01PM (#31317543)
I worked on the Preview app for a number of years during a time when the app more or less flew under the radar. It was easy then to simply add features that "we" wanted as users of the app.

At that time, the design team was less interested in Preview, more interested in Mail and Safari (of course). Design would come in and maybe tell us to put the thumbnail drawer on the right vs. the left.

Honestly, I think the design team found Preview useful as well and didn't stand in our way when we wanted to add "instant alpha" or simple annotations.....

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by dschuessler on Monday May 09, 2022 @02:52PM (#31318227)
I love HN for tech discussions in which the actual people involved pop up. Thank you for that great piece of software you worked on.

Out of curiosity, was there a team exclusively dedicated to the Preview app? How autonomous were you in deciding how to improve the application?

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by JKCalhoun on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:10PM (#31319793)
At first Preview landed in my lap exclusively. Someone had shimmed in some code to open Quicktime image types that NSImage (NeXTStep, AppKit) did not recognize — "BMP" just as an example.

I was told, "Hey, we have a rich PDF API/SPI in CoreGraphics (Quartz2D) maybe you can beef up our PDF support in Preview."

PDF at that time was quickly rasterized (by AppKit) and really treated no differently than, say, a multi-page TIFF file in Preview.

As I started to switch over to rendering PDF's using CoreGraphics rather than NSImage, another engineer (Werner) took over the image side of Preview.

For a while then it was a team of two — me and Werner. Werner did the image side (but also owned and had responsibility for ImageIO) and I did the PDF side (I eventually wrote PDFKit but also had things like the Displays Prefs pane, some Color Sync stuff as my other responsibilities as well).

Werner is smarter than me though so where there were shared resources in Preview (like the toolbar, for example) often Werner handled that.

What I gave above is more or less the direction we were given — so there was a good deal of autonomy. I think everyone sort of had their hands full just trying to get a new graphics system up and running and to move functionality over from System 9 to OS X such that Werner and I were free to just add the stuff we wanted.

Initially I think we tried to keep some commonality — if images could be rotated, I would try to also rotate PDFs. Image zoom in/out? PDF zoom in/out.

But when I added text handling (text selection, search) we kind of acknowledged that the two really were separate beasts. I was surprised later though when the same annotations I had added to support PDF also were added as mark-up tools to images (I was no longer on the team then as I recall).

Preview eventually went to its own team though and the engineers working on it did not have other duties/distractions like Werner and I. This is when signatures, instant-alpha, and other niceties were added.

I definitely enjoyed the years Werner and I were on it and we could just add "cool stuff" we wanted. I remember someone asking for the "blank page" feature — where you can insert a blank page into a PDF – it allows you to play with even/oddness (front/backedness) of pages when printing 2-up. It was cool so we added it.

I like to point out that "we" were the users of the app as much (or more so) than some manager up the chain. To that end, I always felt we more or less knew what users wanted.

I think eventually the designers came to use Preview quite a bit and so had their own suggestions but they certainly weren't standing in our way early on.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by kitsunesoba on Monday May 09, 2022 @01:36PM (#31317155)
> There's a `defaults` command to make it visible at all times in Monterey, but hiding it is a foolish design choice on Apple's part.

It's also a setting under Accessibility > Display > Show window title icons, so there's little danger of it disappearing since it's not a hidden setting.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by jen20 on Monday May 09, 2022 @01:51PM (#31317378)
You can also hover over the title to get the proxy to appear.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by 333c on Monday May 09, 2022 @03:58PM (#31318969)
> I can't remember the name of the guy everyone blames for this, but he talks about minimalism and reducing app UI in favor of putting content forward during OS feature reveals

I believe you might be referring to Jony Ive (who is named in the portion you quoted). He left Apple a few years ago, which is what the comment you quote is talking about.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by alsetmusic on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @09:21AM (#31326783)
No, the person I’m thinking of is his successor. Ive ruined a lot of UI, but I’ve known his name for many years.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by uhuruity on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:56PM (#31322021)
> Preview is one of those essential things that sets macOS apart from the other operating systems, and contributes to that “Mac has good UX” vibe.

As I read this I thought of another such feature - how pressing Space with a file selected (in either Finder or any 'choose a file' dialog window) presents a quick preview of the contents of the file. Extremely low friction way to quickly check out the contents of a file, almost like the GUI version of `head`

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by 2muchcoffeeman on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:39PM (#31322364)
It also has better file puppet than Windows or Linux. I can hit space on an STL and it will show me a preview.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by johnday on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:02AM (#31326045)
I believe that powertoys enables this.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by matwood on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:56PM (#31316597)
Preview is great. Among the many other features, it's also what I use to sign PDFs. You can enter and save a signature using the trackpad or camera and then paste it into any PDF. It looks like you printed, signed, and scanned the PDF back in.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by Rebelgecko on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:07PM (#31319072)
Absolutely. I recently tried switching to Linux, and realized how amazing Preview is. Tasks like "swap 2 pages in a PDF" or "crop this image" are much less intuitive and often require you to install a single-purpose command line utility, or fire up something like GIMP which has a steeper learning curve and feels like overkill
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by Hammershaft on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:01PM (#31319000)
If Mac OS spent two OS update cycles just fixing the usability kinks that plague window management, context switching across apps, mouse support, multi desktop support, and finder, then it would be the most pleasurable OS to work with out of the 3. As it is, these flaws make up most of the interactions I have with an OS moment to moment, and as a result Mac OS frustrates me in ways Windows and Linux (using Pop OS with Gnome) don't.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by brundolf on Monday May 09, 2022 @03:43PM (#31318803)
I adore the fact that I can sign PDFs so easily from the system-default viewer (and save my signature for next time)

Also love that I can do all the image-editing basics from the same app (enough to make memes anyway...)

Though it does concern me a bit that most of the best UX features in Apple software are older; usually the newer an Apple UI is, the worse it is. Control Center and such are pretty nice I guess, but Apple Music on macOS is terrible

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by secretsatan on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @03:45AM (#31324566)
I never thought about it, but I do use it a lot, some of the things in there I didn't even realise were difficult.

I use it for resizing images all the time for sure, it's quick and easy The markup tools are nice as well to quickly annotate things for sharing in the team, although for some reason it always takes me a little bit figure out how to unlock the toolbar.

I had no idea simple edits to PDF were such a pain for other people

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by barbs on Monday May 09, 2022 @11:43PM (#31323193)
Been a while since I've used Windows as a daily driver but I used to use SumatraPDF for basic PDF operations. Small, lightweight, open-source. Looks like it'd still be useful today?

https://www.sumatrapdfreader.org/free-pdf-reader

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by Matl on Monday May 09, 2022 @03:31PM (#31318662)
> Preview is one of those essential things that sets macOS apart from the other operating systems

KDE's Okukar is pretty similar imo.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by EvgeniyZh on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @01:02AM (#31323634)
But supports more formats
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by brightball on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:47PM (#31321928)
Preview and OmniGraffle are the 2 apps that I really miss from OSX now that I’m on linux full time.

That’s about it though.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by solarkraft on Monday May 09, 2022 @01:28PM (#31317044)
> On other OSs, this moves the file to the directory shown in the dialog, or does nothing

Apps on Linux (Gnome?) do it too.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by jitl on Monday May 09, 2022 @02:37PM (#31318047)
Nice! The last time I used Gnome/Ubuntu as my daily driver (2019?) that wasn’t the case — or maybe wasn’t consistently the case.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by rbanffy on Monday May 09, 2022 @02:45PM (#31318135)
I think it makes more sense than opening the file - you are looking at a place in the filesystem after all.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by maxwelldone on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:35PM (#31316294)
This is my wish list for preview:

1. Support for h265 video previews (not sure about technical or any other licensing hurdles)

2. Basic playback controls (via keyboard) when viewing video previews - just play, pause, skip would do. I review a ton of videos and I'd often like to pause to take a screenshot or skip to quickly see what's happening in the video.

3. Option to zoom on text files like json, csv etc. Not a big deal but would be a great addition especially on hi-res external displays.

Edit: Looks like I mixed quicklook with preview. My bad.

Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by kergonath on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:52PM (#31316543)
Quick Look does this, does it not?
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by saagarjha on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:40PM (#31316380)
I'm curious why QuickTime Player is not what you want?
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by 0898 on Monday May 09, 2022 @06:31PM (#31320725)
I worry that not enough people are aware of these little touches, and that one day they'll disappear.
Re:Preview, the Mac app people forget about by wtetzner on Monday May 09, 2022 @05:57PM (#31320345)
Yeah, PDFs on Windows are a pain. I've set Firefox as my default PDF reader on my Windows box.