Also the fold is the most compact possible, even more compact than Brompton in terms of maximizing the use of space. It also fits in a standard airline luggage without any disassembly which few other folding bikes can claim.
The frame is full titanium including the locking mechanisms. It’s made in Canada and is the lowest cost complete titanium bike on the market, folding or not.
Full disclosure, I’m the owner/founder of Helix. Happy to answer any questions related to it or folding bikes in general.
As another post here mentions, it would be good for me to write about the lessons of our journey as it is unique and becoming more relevant as hardware startups seem to be on the rise. I will do that soon.
I'm not so forgiving of campaigns running into issues and not replying to comments. In this case, I see that this campaign had a last update in 2017 and people complaining in the comments with no response I can see in the last 4 years. And this kind of lack of communication that's shown in Kickstarter is not a good sign of the integrity of the company (and doesn't look good for prospective buyers).
Logistic problem are understandable, rising costs make sense but in that case, publicize it. I've seen some kickstarter campaigns that had such issues, had a lot of delays and had to sell retail in order to have enough money to deliver their backers reward but they were transparent, published the updates in kickstarter and even made it visible to everyone.
And yes agreed, kickstarter's UI is really not great..
If you have not already done so: you should transparently write up the lessons that you have learned and how you are going to address this for your electric launch to build up confidence. I remember your kickstarter and in retrospect continue to agree with my decision to not participate (I'm the happy owner of a Brompton that I can check in airline luggage instead).
A bit of unsolicited feedback; listing the seat post options based on rider height (regular for shorter than 6’3”, and extra long for taller than 6’3”) is wrong.
Seat post height is based on how long your legs are, not how tall you are. If anything, you should list that by inseam.
As it is, I would have no idea which option is the most appropriate.
Thank you, just what I was thinking!
> If anything, you should list that by inseam.
What you want to measure is the PBH (pubic bone height). It is very precise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yxZkHpAB4g
Do you have sources to back that up?
In the UK, the price on your website lists it as £2,025 (or £3,003 for the higher-end model). I can get a PlanetX titanium gravel bike for £1,799 - granted it's not folding, but you specified "folding or not"!
Also not avoiding any questions or intentionally lying. At the time I checked I missed the lower cost bike from PlanetX. Aliexpress would be cheaper as well, so I concede.
Can we do better than this? It is not welcome here, per the HN guidelines, and poisons everyone who sees it. It's also an accusation without evidence, and therefore meaningless in regard to the accused.
There's evidence that this company has been misleading customers about order status for at least 7 years. How much more evidence do you need?
If you want more than that, the ball is in your court to follow up on it.
We don't have time to dig up evidence for other people's comments, and that claim, even if true, would not be evidence that they lied (delayed shipping are not lies), and not be evidence that they lied here.
In my experience (and maybe you'll correlate), all materials involve compromise; there doesn't tend to be a case where a material is outstandingly better in all categories.
Comparing titanium vs. the best steels, it's half the weight but also half the modulus of elasticity and half the tensile yield strength. I wouldn't expect there to be much weight advantage when comparing two tubes with roughly equal properties but maybe this is a case of "every little bit helps"?
If I remember rightly, titanium is harder to process also.
Hell, I'd probably buy one without any parts which were standardized and likely to be customized anyway (saddle, brakes, bb and cranks, levers, chain, freewheel) and just move them over from a current bike.
Along the lines of my other comment, have you had any problems with Brompton around your pivoting rear wheel? Your design looks very different from the Brompton but I believe it’s that pivoting rear wheel they are quite aggressive about legally (where they can be).
That single sided front fork is genius!
I really hope you have incredible success, next time I’m looking for a folding bike I will certainly check yours out.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/0001985...
Additionally, I saw there are some electric options coming up in Q3, would you spare a moment to share your thoughts about possible future developments (i.e. if you see belt/ebike options expand in the future)?
Mid drive on the other hand would be a more challenging project because of the space and packaging constraints of our design. But, rear hub motors, which is what we’re using, have improved a lot recently; they are lighter, 2 speed, quieter and are considered to be comparable now. You also have a far more flexible upgrade path when technology improves as it’s not tied to the frame.
Electric Helix is going to be pretty ground breaking because up until now, the only other compact option was Brompton which is front wheel drive.
So maybe the dream bike is still possible, just a bit different.
Definitely understand where you're coming from. I'm excited to see how well can Helix make the pedal assist with rear wheel motor work. What I like in particular is that the setup will be more upgradeable than most mid-drive builds.
With respect to the belt drive, glad to hear that's still a possibility (albeit not a priority, which is fine). This is just a single data point, but if there was a Alfine 11 option with a belt, I'd pull the trigger and buy one right now. Well, perhaps I'd wait for the rear rack and the luggage case that I understand are in the works, those are killer accessories.
For me personally, the weight is less of a concern, at least in the vicinity of the low numbers where current helix builds are. To illustrate, my current 20 inch folder is about 15kg (belt+alfine 11) and I find that quite manageable.
In any case, keep rocking on, I hope you guys succeed - it's exciting to see such novel bike engineering happening here in Canada :)
A bike that is always clean, never needs you to mess around finding a secure lockup and almost never needs service is the dream, and stopping 90% of the way there for want of 3kg seems so strange.
https://wheretheroadforks.com/chain-vs-belt-drive-bike-pros-...
Major kudos for using off-the-shelf standard components. I can't over-stress this enough.
I'm not saying I'm pulling the trigger and ordering straight away (I've had this idea in my head for well over a year, so far just waiting for a good excuse / trip idea), but it's definitely made it close to the top of my list now. Even though it's pricy at around 3k Eur, given the titanium frame it's probably still well cheaper than equivalent Brompton (Chapter 3 or such).
Can you clarify what you mean by “the fold is the most compact possible, even more compact than Brompton in terms of maximizing the use of space“
The Brompton's folded size is 585mm high x 565mm long x 270mm wide
The Helix is 580mm x 635mm x 230mm.
Helix 71.12 x 63.5 x 26.67 cm
Kwiggle 55 × 40 × 25 cm
While twice as expensive the Helix looks much more like a decent bike at roughly the same weight. Like many folding bikes and scooters the Kwiggle looks like you could get seriously injured if you hit something (small). Before your face hits the pavement you would try stick your leg forwards but it has these scary looking spikes there.
How can I justify that if my Mazda3 2008 is worth that much, and still runs perfectly fine?
If you want to talk about why they're expensive compared to cars, IDK... cars are mass produced by robots in Japan and the bikes are small-scale assembled in Canada by people.
> What countries do you ship to?
> Helix ships worldwide.
This claims stability is more determined by fork ~trail. http://avaghon.nl/download/Naloop_Bikestability-Forkrake.pdf
This bike has a steeper head tube, reducing trail. But reducing rake (even if it goes negative), increases the trail again.
Stability is more complicated than just that, though... iirc bicycles have a bunch of nodes, including 1? 2? that are unstable but slow enough that riders don't notice they're compensating.
You can see the Brompton influence, one pivoting wheel and folding cross bar with a 45deg hinge. But they have had to compromise in order to not infringe the design resulting in a very odd seat design.
I have spent many many hours trying to design a fold as good as Bromptons and haven’t managed too, it’s just too perfect.
Edit:
It seems to have been proven in court that they have copyright (rather than the old patent) of the design. A bit like the coke bottle design I suppose.
https://www.farrer.co.uk/news-and-insights/brompton-puts-the...
Oh, I so wish that were true.
Software is the poster child for multiple IP regimes applying to the same thing, with copyrights applying twice over (source code and object code/binary executable) as well as patents. Patents can in theory also be applicable to the compilation of source code into object code, but as far as I'm aware no one has pursued a case on that basis, and in any case open source compilers are now standard.
But it gets even crazier when you start adding trademark and trade dress (ie. "look and feel" etc.) into the mix.
Just about the only form of IP that in practice is invalidated by the other forms is trade secret, as the others all involve some form of disclosure or publication.
(Brompton is a UK company, so this wouldn't apply to UK-based competitors, but it would protect US-based competitors.)
EDIT: it looks like the EU actually has similar rules. Brompton is very likely going to lose this case, and is probably just counting on the court proceedings to delay this competitor's entry into the market. Expect a flood of Brompton-likes when the lawsuit settles.
If there is a downside that would be that even though the wheels are quite a bit bigger than the ones of the bike showcased here that the tires are very high pressure and need frequent topping up.
Do you use CC0 for all your own work?
a) yes, when it's used anti-competitively; which it almost exclusively is. I haven't been sold on the idea that idea exclusivity funds creative and public works and value-stores. I tend to believe that capitol does that -- and I think capitol can be generated regardless of copyright state.
b) Yes, I have a cc0 1.0 license on anything I release outside of the contracts i'm beholden to from other entities. My thingiverse profile, for one, is filled with general purpose models and assets that are all licensed cc0 1.0 -- these took real person-hours to produce and have actual value for some folks.
other than the occassional irritation with persnickety users here and there I enjoy the work and view it as a social good -- I hope others find the work valuable and use it themselves; surely others exist with the same motivations.
The concern is that they're double-dipping. They had a patent. Patents expire after 20 years, but give you exclusive right to use an invention in the meantime. After a patent expires, what's supposed to happen is that anyone can make use of it.
After the patent expired, they started abusing copyright to kill competition.
It's incredibly unethical to try and have it both ways. They had their patent. Their patents is gone. Competitors should be allowed to use the technology in that patent, without worrying about a random court for some forsaken reason allowing them to abuse copyright to stop competitors from being able to compete.
e.g. ARM, Dyson, the RepRap project, the Raspberry Pi, the Oxford/AZ vaccine, Rolls-Royce jet engines. Graphene. The micro-satellite. Vantablack. The genuinely trailblazing .gov.uk project. Quorn. Cloning!
And most importantly, the tikka massala, the balti, and the Henry vaccum cleaner.
(And, someone told me the other day, bungee jumping. Sorry about that)
I have no idea if our IP regime is worse or better than anywhere else's; we do not have a tradition of crazy software patents, though, so my guess is better, not worse.
I like the Brompton and tried one in a shop, but decided I couldn't see springing $1400+ for one unless I was sure I would use it a lot, so I would possibly start with a lower cost folding bike and see how I liked it. That was pre-pandemic so I put the whole thing aside.
I'm not concerned about travelling with the bike. The attraction of a folder to me is just an easier time getting it in and out of an apartment for commuting purposes.
Our shop has noted that Brompton bottom brackets are low quality. Often poorly aligned to the frame and the threading frequently needs chased.
Due to copyright regulations and court orders in the UK and EU the knock off can not be imported and sold.
The fold on a Brompton is just about perfect. It takes no time at all. I'm a little annoyed to find that they're using copyright to keep a monopoly on it, but certainly not so much that I'm going to give it up.
I tried out a Tern, a Dahon, and some random ancient thing. I've never regretted spending the extra coin on the Brompton. The fact that all the greasy bits are in the middle when it's folded means you throw it in your trunk without thinking about it. It means you put it between your legs on the subway without thinking about it. The fact that it folds in seconds means you don't miss your train fumbling with it at the fare gate.
The only downside I can see is like half the parts on the thing are bespoke. Replacing a derailleur, for instance is not something your average shop can do. Ditto the shifters.
It's the Apple of bikes: the tight integration of the components gets you an absolutely magnificent package (at a premium price), but you get some lock-in as a result.
They've reorganized their product lines since I got mine. I've got a two speed with flat bars and fenders, all steel (i.e. no titanium). I'd say that three speeds is probably a worthy upgrade unless you live somewhere dead flat (and the two speeds are spaced too far apart for my liking, I'd add). Even the flat bars are pretty upright if you're used to a road bike.
Of other note, if you have a long inseam, you'll be getting a bigger seat post. I'm a 34" inseam, and I had to get the extendable seat post to get the seat high enough.
For example, lugging it around on public transport, or bringing it on a plane, or just dragging it around a city for the day - this thing easily wins, there’s just no comparison. I haven’t rode one of these so of course I can’t say, but the fact that they rode it all around the entire IJsselmeer (one of the largest lakes in the world) - which is a serious bike ride even on a normal bike - is a pretty good sign that this bike isn’t terrible to ride on, even if it may not quite be a Brompton. So the comparison becomes “decent portability and excellent biking” vs “excellent portability and decent biking”. I think that’s a fair tradeoff. If anything, I wish it would go further - give me half the size and a mediocre biking experience and I’d buy one in a heartbeat.
I'm very happy with mine, and it has most of the advantages you list - luggage rack, real bike feel (my longest day is apparently 64km and top speed 64kph). The sensitive steering takes a bit of getting used to the first time but you adapt quite quickly. For me the simple fold (and, sure, lower price) feels like a big advantage compared to the Brompton, which is what several of my friends have.
Regarding the cost, I'm quite sure I could sell mine for more than 800 EUR while any other alternative would lose at least 50% of the value and probably require more maintenance.
Had one for a bit, very small wheels, was kindof fun but in London its just easier to have a normal bike and arrange your commute so that you use it, rather than carry a small bike around.
I also had a Strida, really nice design and a good balance between usefulness and foldyness
I have a Decathlon foldable. It doesn't fold quite as small as a Brompton, so I wouldn't want to be regularly taking it on public transport. But it's light and solid, folds easily and rides well at about one third the price.
[1]: https://fr.brompton.com/shop/bikes/a-line?color=white&handle...
This line of thinking is why everything was stupid expensive in the bay area (mattresses, bicycles, etc.) In Canada, I never paid more than 300 for a bicycle or more than 500 for a mattress. As OP said, I don't care if it is made in London, the price needs to be accessible to the masses for these things to solve our transport crisis.
Like a macbook pro omits a headphone jack and ethernet ports?
That said the bike in TFA looks interesting for multi-modal commuter use in e.g. Singapore or other such cities where a Brompton likely would not be accepted on the subway.
There's also the JZ88 (https://jz88.com/shop.html) which is claimed to be Singapore MRT-acceptable but I haven't used it.
This is an interesting idea, but I wonder if it collides into the electric scooter market.
I think dahon bikes are fairly nice, but I have not tried a brompton.
I have a dahon mu n360 with a variable transmission that I like quite a bit.
https://dahon.com/bikes/mu-n360/
However recently I bought two bikes direct e-bikes - pretty versatile and go off-road/to parks:
https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/e-bikes-elec...
I wonder how people use their folding bikes?
I am not totally satisfied, but it is OK. I'll probably change the crank gear to be larger, the very lowest gears aren't useful right now because they are so slow.
I also can't ride it without having at least one hand on the handlebars.
Having fenders is nice, but they are very flimsy.
Price was a lot lower than a Brompton.
It’s a great tool.
Although to be fair I never worked for a company where there was at least one Brompton.
Having said that there’s something very British about it IMO. But I am not British.
It would be convenient for me to have one due to lack of space in my apartment, but from an external observer perspective they all look like too small and like I would need to ride hunched and uncomfortable, so I haven't really looked into them. But maybe it's just prejudice.
Being similarly tall with longish legs (especially my thigh bone, important for eg. legroom in cars, airplanes...), I'd be extremely weary of jumping on a bike that's not suitably sized, no matter what claims people make how a smaller bike can fit you.
But what matters just the same is your arm length, body length and such: basically, how far down and in the front you can reach when properly seated above the pedals? I've only got "average" arms (my wingspan matches my height), so smaller frames mean hard to reach handlebars.
When you can't easily try a bike out, if it's not rated for at least 2-3" (5-8cm) taller riders than you are, I wouldn't get it because your balance and posture will suffer.
Looking at comments, they come from western Spain, there's plenty of Bike shops in say Cáceres.
If I was spending €1000+ on a bike I was going to use for the next decade, I'd want to try it out first
I was hoping 9th century mention would give it away though.
I recently ordered a frame on AliExpress [0] equipped with internal cable routing and disc brake mounts, 2.25'' tire clearance. My build looks like a gravel bike. A gravel bike on 20'' with an 11 speed cassette, a drop bar and SRAM derailleur. Of course, not to miss a great carbon sear post. Including pedals and tires, the bike accounts for 10kg. In order to take it on flights, I did sew myself a backpack to fit the bike. Taking the bike apart takes me 10 minutes. It is a tiny bit too large for hand luggage but ideal for being checked in.
For me the frame is a great compromise between size, stiffness and maintainability.
Velo orange [1] does offer a lovely frameset, too. It's just hard to get by in Europe (at a reasonable price point).
[0] https://m.alibaba.com/product/1600169443757/SILVEROCK-Chrome...
So much for German engineering in this case ;-)
Half the price of a Kwiggle [1]. Seems like a bargain to me.
[1] Comparing apples to apples, the base Brompton is a 3-speed for 850 euros. The 3-speed Kwiggle is 1690.
US dealers that sell them seem to start around $1600
I then moved and I lived at one end of the Central line in Essex, about a 1 minute walk, and worked a similar distance in West London.
Took about 55 minutes for the train to go, always got a seat in both directions.
However during summer I would ride on my Bromptom one way in the morning two or three times a week - took about 24 miles, or 2 hours, I'd then fold it up and take it home on the train.
My next move was too far to ride (45 miles each way), and less than a mile from the station at each end so didn't do much commuting riding then, and I moved to be a home worker in 2011, but I still ride my Bromptom around the country lanes. Occasionally think I should upgrade to something with more than 3 gears (it's relatively hilly where I live).
The bike itself I think cost £520 back in 2005, a new one of the same model is over £1k now, not sure what the second hand value is
One of my routes includes Hampstead and Highgate, a decent amount of climb. I tried the 3 speed hire Bromptons, but went for the 6 speed when I purchased one. The upgrade was well worth the money, I doubt I'd be able to get up those hills on the 3 speed.
Good on you for doing 70km! That's about the limit of my comfortable endurance on it too. My record is~100km plus two ferry rides touring on the west coast but I admittedly walked it up the last two hills in the dark and I started to wish I was done around 85km.
What do you use for checked airline travel? I have the B&W hard case but haven't tried anything else. I think it is a linear inch or two over regulation if measured but nobody has ever stopped me or charged overage.
I'm in the process of building aluminum cases for two Zizzo folders my gf and I just bought. I'm keeping them under the size limit to be safe, but because they also convert into trailers (to haul carry-on) and are relatively beefy, I'm bumping up against the 50 lb weight limit for economy seats. Right now I'm scratching my head as to how to incorporate casters and center stands with only 1 lb left to play with. :|
I have a folding portage cart with light weight removable wheels that attach via pushpin axles into metal receivers. Buy two extra receivers, drill holes in the side of the case, bolt on the receivers, and attach the wheels at the destination.
I haven't used it for this yet but plan was I would just take the wheels in my carry on. I also have not work out how to attach the cart to the bike yet.
Wike sells the individual wheels, pins, receivers (2) and even a diy box trailer kit(1) using these parts with instructions if looking to visualize this.
(1) https://wicycle.com/products/bike-trailers/diy2 (2) https://wicycle.com/support/replacementparts
I have a Zizzo and bought one for each of my immediate family members. Everyone loves it.
Amazon has reasonable pricing+availability for USA people.
I bought 3 Zizzo Forte, and 1 Zizzo Urbano. The Urbano for my 9 yo daughter to make it slightly easier for her to manage.
Kwiggle is a new movement for a flexy human being. Humans have been accustomed to putting their natural flexibility into a rigid posture on a bicycle for 200 years.
If you are thinking the bicycle from the anatomically view, you should invent a bicycle, that could be ridden upright with your flexible natural movement similar to the walking.
This was the first idea of the Kwiggle. And this is an opportunity to get back to your natural flexibility. After a little get used to, Kwiggle will adapt to your movement and not the other way round.
On Kwiggle you ride upright with a small wheelbase. So you have to adjust a little bit and you should pay a little bit more attention to the road. We have so many customers who have mastered that with bravour, so we stopped worrying about it.
Only with this small wheelbase it is possible to get a bicycle folded to handluggage size.
I really love my light aluminum non-folding bike that is pedal-powered... but if I would buy a folding bike, it would be electric-motor powered.
On the other hand, if you ride 70 Km a day - why would you even need a _folding_ bike? That means you do serious cross-country riding. Use a regular bike.
I've had an A-bike in the past as well, and while I like the idea in principle, it's essentially a scam, due to the extremely low-quality materials - some components in the transmission are made of plastic, and they're bound to break rather quickly (I think it took me just a few months, even with around 20 km/week).
Resale value is important in the sense that you know you are risking at most X, which with Brompton sounds to be €600 — in case you dislike it or don't have a need for it anymore, or are in a need of cash, so the risk you are willing to take is still larger.
Ultimately, as with anything, if Bromptons are really of such a high quality, the best purchase is a used Brompton which you might be able to resell for the same price you got it at. If you really end up using it to the max, you can resell it early and get a new one specced to your liking.
For something you'll end up using daily, the most important thing is quality, and then you should look for the best price next.
The Brompton is a much better folded bike (it's a lot smaller, it actually stays folded, it doesn't have exposed greasy parts when folded, you can use it as a shopping cart, etc).
High end Terns (Verge) are more like a normal bike with good components but they are nowhere near as compact when folded (likelihood of walking it into a shop and not getting yelled at is nil, unlike with the Brompton), they don't have as good commuter accessories as the Bromptons and they ride much stiffer (which is good or bad depending on what you are doing with the bike).
Source: own both
Yes, Bromptons are expensive. But they ride like a bicycle, have gears, a stiff enough frame, luggage racks etc. There's very little compromise. The fastest I've done on mine is 45 kph and I've ridden 70km in a day. I carry it on and off buses and trains multiple times a day without issue.
In the past I had an A-bike[2]. It's a fun and cute little design but the wheels are absolutely tiny and has no gears. You feel like you're riding a folding contraption rather than a bicycle. The build quality was rather plasticky too. I like the idea of an A-shape with telescoping tubes. It's quite an ingenious fold.
I've also ridden (but not owned) a Pacific CarryMe[3]. The ride experience again suffers for the short wheels and no gears, but it could be useful for some. The fold still leaves you with quite a long package.
I'd love to try the Kwiggle bike. I don't think the strange seat will cause as many problems as people think, but I suspect the overall ride experience to be a bit bouncy and flexy. Maybe it's worth it for the small fold.
For a more out-there design I think the Halbrad/Half-Bike[4] could be quite nice but it never really got past the prototype stage. Under-seat steering is a bit of an adjustment too.
[1] https://www.brompton.com/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-bike
[3] https://pacificcarryme.com/
[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQIC138vmlE