Those modern, 1-pixel wide, scrollbars that only expand when you manage to hover over them are a pox on usability. And I say this as someone with a mouse with scrollwheel.

They make it hard to see the size of a document and as you said: operating the scrollbar is fiddly. You can't just grab it. First you have to make it expand, then you have to move the mouse again to grab it, but don't move the mouse too much or the scrollbar will shrink again!

This is on both Linux and Windows. I have no idea what it is like on OSX.

Even worse. On MacOS the scrollbars are invisible by default, and only appear while you scroll, plus a second or so after stopping.

So to grab a scrollbar in MacOS you first have to scroll the document to make the scrollbar appear. Then you have under two seconds to move the pointer on top of the narrow scrollbar so it expands allowing you to grab it before it disappears again.

Been a while since I used a Mac, but I'm fairly certain there was a system level setting for whether scrollbars are always visible or not.

There is, and I'm pretty sure if you connect a mouse instead of a trackpad it enables by default. It took me a while to workout why I was seeing scrollbars again and how to disable it when I got a mouse.

Yes there is.

That's because scrollwheels are way too clicky and not scrolly enough.

You feel every click, and it is translated to aproximately a three line scroll in the document.

It is a very discrete signal, instead of a continuous signal.

Touchpads have this right, the scroll is very smooth, and you can scroll by tiny amounts if you want.

In a way, it is a limitation of the 25+ years old technology. Why it has not been updated to something smoother is a mystery to me.

Sounds like you need a Logitech MX Master 3 Mouse. The scrollwheel click is software and button controllable (uses an electromagnet I think)

That mouse is very expensive. There are similar smooth scroll wheels on many other, cheaper, Logitech models.

I've recently installed https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/scroll_anywhe... in middle+right click mode, and now miss it everywhere I don't have it (Reader Mode, PDFs, etc.). Unfortunately development looks a bit inactive, and there's no option for locking scrolling into vertical-only if you begin a scroll by dragging vertically.

I found a solution for Firfox on Ubuntu MATE:

1. go to about:config

2. find widget.non-native-theme.scrollbar.size.override

3. Change to some pixel value (I have mine set at 26).

voila!

I do not understand why the default is so thin. Really bucks the trend of every UI element being touch-screen large nowadays!

> I do not understand why the default is so thin.

For scroll/touch users, the scrollbar has become an indicator only, and not so much a tool for scrolling, to show where on the document the window is.

For mouse too, actually. I grew up with scroll wheel mice so I literally never had a reason to use a scrollbar to scroll.

Yeah the scroll wheel was a big quality of life improvement when it came in. I wouldn't want to do without anymore. Though I mainly use pgup/pgdn to scroll. I wish the keyboard had a big scroll wheel. Some 90s keyboards did, like a big rod. But now if there is one it's for volume control only.

Scroll wheel tends to be quite slow compared to dragging the scrollbar for large views so they really don't replace each other.

really? what about really long pages? I frequently have to grab the thumb and because the scroll wheel takes ages

This is not true. On iOS I absolutely can grab the scroll bar and drag it around like normal. It even makes a solid click when the grab is active. It just isn’t super prominent like old desktop OSs had it.

Even as an indicator I like it larger than many places set it to by default. I am also on pretty large 27" monitors though

There are times when I'd love to have page up/down on a tablet.

Thank you, this is a big improvement. I'd rather have a nice chunky Motif-style scrollbar but it's better than nothing.

It seems that "modern" UI designers want a look and do not give a flying fuck about ergonomics (on desktop at least)

I should have just kept reading. When I saw the parent comment it got me thinking I really should see how easy it is to change the scrollbar size in Firefox. Took me a few minutes to find exactly the instructions you shared.

Because if you have touchscreens you can use two-finger gestures, and if you're on a mouse you'll have no issue targeting a thin widget. It makes a lot of sense from that POV.

If the thin widget is directly against the edge of the viewport, maybe.

If it's literally anywhere else on the screen, then no, Fitts's Law applies, and it's a bad target. It has height but no width.

This is especially true for those with motor or visual handicaps, or both.

It's damned near unusable even with very modest levels of distraction or other factors, e.g., using a device as a passenger on a moving vehicle, as with a boat, train, or airplane.

> If the thin widget is directly against the edge of the viewport, maybe.

It is. Visually there's space between the scroll handle and the window edge, but if you actually point the cursor in that space it'll highlight the handle.

This feels pretty weird on macOS in a way I never realized, because I thought you were wrong but you're actually right -- you can slam the cursor right against the right edge of the screen and the scroll handle lights up and you can click and drag it if you start an up/down mouse motion -- but the cursor changes to the left-right resize one and if you start by moving left/right it resizes the window instead and the scrolling motion is cancelled.

I guess thinking about it this is a very reasonable compromise, but it feels weird to start scrolling up and down with a cursor that shows a left-right arrow and that is technically pointing outside of the scroll bar.

That may work on MacOS.

It ... doesn't work for any Linux desktop, most especially those using Focus Follows Mouse (certainly for strict, often for lazy) policy.

Though that's useful to know.

On KDE the cursor shape aspect doesn't match macOS (in the sense that if it's showing a resize cursor, it'll resize the window, no matter what), but per my comment further up the chain it'll absolutely work if it's just a normal cursor but between the handle and the edge of the window. Tried it on both Firefox and Konsole (which are subtly different due to Gtk v. Qt quirkiness but have the same behavior).

Though I'm using click-to-focus, not focus-follows-mouse, so YMMV.

NB: Trying on MacOS now, if I'm on a browser page in Firefox positioned within the display (other than at the right edge) and hit the right edge of the screen, the scrollbar does NOT in fact light up or activate.

If I have a window positioned to the right edge of the screen ... the scrollbar is draggable only when my mouse pointer is positioned directly over the scroll grabber. Not when pushed to the edge of the screen.

This seems to apply generally for windows best I can tell.

TL;DR: The behaviour you describe is not at all what I see.

This is a Firefox bug which has been open for years and years with no fix. Try it with native apps like Finder or Terminal. Absolutely works for me on Big Sur.

I'm pretty sure boats trains and airplanes are all vehicles.

It would -- but it's set so thin by default that I have trouble targeting it with my mouse!

For a fullscreen window it would be nice if moving the mouse all the way to the right edge was sufficient to target the scrollbar, but that doesn't work in Chrome on my mac

My browser is rarely against the RH side of my display, or even on the RH sie of my screen.

My preferred informational / programming layout is browser on left, terminal on right.

And in any multi-window layout, any window not aligned with the right-hand display border remains difficult to target.

You can also use the scroll wheel of the mouse just fine, or the TouchPad scroll gesture. I don't even remember that the scrollbars are invisible anymore

Some touchpads also support gesture scrolling.

Does not seem to affect my Firefox setup on Windows but I need to do more testing. I have a scrollwheel on my mouse and still hate the damn tiny scrollbars!

You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

Why do you use a mouse without a scrollwheel?

I use the acme text editor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_(text_editor) for work every day. It makes heavy use of mouse chords, so I need 3 real buttons on the mouse, and it's hard to find a mouse with 3 real buttons and a scrollwheel which doesn't get in the way of the buttons. I've got a Kensington Expert Mouse trackball which works pretty well, but at the end of the day an old Logitech PS/2 mouse plugged into a converter is my go-to.

Depends by what you mean by "real buttons" but my first thought was that 99% of gaming mice will have at least 3 buttons and a scrollwheel. Often it's closer to 10 buttons.

This one has 20 buttons (including 3 big ones and a scrollwheel): https://www.logitechg.com/en-us/products/gaming-mice/g600-mm...

> Depends by what you mean by "real buttons" but my first thought was that 99% of gaming mice will have at least 3 buttons and a scrollwheel. Often it's closer to 10 buttons.

> This one has 20 buttons (including 3 big ones and a scrollwheel): https://www.logitechg.com/en-us/products/gaming-mice/g600-mm... I really like this mouse https://natec-zone.com/press/euphonie I really appreciate vertical form factor. It's one the cheap side, but it's good for my hands.

I was also going to suggest this. I have used a lot mouses and this one is my go-to. It's well built and priced. It definitely has 3 "real" buttons.

I am very interested to learn about your workflow. What language do you program in? How does acme help programming in this language? Do you have a video or a stream I could watch? I'd love to know!

I write Go code almost exclusively. I don't have a video demonstrating it, but you can read http://jfloren.net/tools.html for more information about how I use acme, and watch https://research.swtch.com/acme to see it in action.

Here's a few key points:

* Select text & middle-click it (or just select with the middle button & release) to execute a program. I just keep a file full of common commands open at all times and fire them off as needed.

* The "acmego" tool automatically formats my Go code & adds imports as needed whenever I save. The "A" tool can find the definition of any function/type/variable I'm looking at and open the source file to an appropriate line. (yes I know these things are available in other editors)

I am not sure I would want to use it but I was totally amazed watching a video. It seems supper efficient when one learns it.

> I need 3 real buttons on the mouse, and it's hard to find a mouse with 3 real buttons and a scrollwheel which doesn't get in the way of the buttons

does a gaming mouse work? I'm currently using a $10 gaming mouse that has 4 buttons and a scroll wheel. Two of them are thumb-buttons that function very well and are not in the way at all.

I also struggled to find a mouse with a decent wheel that you can click without moving it off which is handy in CAD's. Gave up in the end and switched to using thumb button for middle click. But there's an option to get one of 3DConnexion CAD Mouse's if you can swallow the price tag.

Logitech MX Master series has an amazing scroll wheel in almost any way you can think of, including being stable when clicking it.

On the mice I've used recently, the scroll wheel itself was clickable as a middle button. Is that not sufficient for your purposes?

Unfortunately not... after prolonged use, my middle finger gets pretty painful from the mid-clicking. It's less ergonomic than a real button.

Consider a Ploopy trackball. There are 4 easy accessible buttons on the mouse plus another under the scroll wheel, and it's fully programmable.

https://ploopy.co/classic-trackball/

May as well call it Tracky McTrackface. Looks like and awesome project but “Ploopy” is such an odd naming choice. Is it a non-English word or have special meaning in the community?

I use the middle button lots and the MX master 3 has never given me issues.

The IBM Scrollpoints have 2-axis scroll and a real middle button.

You might like the Logitech Anywhere MX. 5 real buttons and a scroll wheel that toggles between clicky and smooth. Only downside is that it's not bluetooth, it needs a tiny USB dongle.

It has bluetooth support as well! I use the MX master but it's the same system. There's a button on the bottom to switch between up to 3 devices.

I haven't used a mouse where you couldn't press the scroll wheel to get a midle click in a long time.

To be fair, it's usually pretty awkward and feels bad though. It is often very easy to accidentally scroll a bit on the wheel while depressing the third button.

Some of the Logitech mice (MX Anywhere 2) switch the 'clickiness' (rasterization) of the scrollwheel on and off instead of sending a button click.

https://www.logitech.com/en-us/eol/mx-anywhere-2s-mouse.910-...

I'd love to see OP's response to that. I don't think I have seen anyone using a mouse without a scroll wheel for at least a decade.

I have a be trackball and a vertical mouse. Both expensive. Both without proper scroll.

Many trackwheels on are also slow at of you want to flick many pages down.

I rely mostly in keyboard.

> Many trackwheels on are also slow at of you want to flick many pages down.

This is why the Apple Magic Mouse is so great - it's essentially a phone surface instead of physical buttons.

Middle mouse button + dragging works fine, faster than scrolling in some situations.

Genuinely curious what you do when you have to navigate a long document or page that doesn't have a clickable table of contents. If you're at the top and you need to get somewhere close to the bottom, do you just sit there and flick the scroll wheel for 5 minutes?

Page down?

Alt + Scroll in my text editor

Middle Click -> Scroll on the web

Page Up/Page down everywhere else

Three different answers. How is it not obvious that this is a problem with a simple, universal solution?

Four including clicking and dragging a widget

I think you mean hovering to get the widget to appear, going to click it and having it auto-hide as your cursor is on the way, then hover again, repeat 2 more times, then finally be able to click and drag the widget.

I know it's a joke, but I feel some people take this kind of thing seriously. Yes, improving stuff can break other stuff, but that doesn't mean we should never improve anything, it just means the devs (and PMs if applicable, probably not in the Linux world) need to have a feedback pipe coming from users to let them know what the consequences of the changes are.

Just hit End?

Not parent, but I use a trackball. Apparently adding a plain scroll wheel onto one is rocket science or something, based on the prices.

There’s tons of trackballs with wheels. Both CST Lasertrac and Kensington Expert Mouse have them.

The Expert Mouse costs a lot, lot more than a simple trackball. And my subjective feeling is that it's actually less ergonomic than the cheaper Logitech I've got.

If you’re open to spending about the same (about $10 more), then the Logitech MX Ergo might be exactly what you’re after.

https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireles...

I cannot use that kind of trackball. It relies on actuation with my thumbs, and it hasn't worked out very well in the ones I tried. I prefer "ambidextrous" ones with the ball in the middle.

Well for the record then this is my jam and I cannot express how much I love it: https://www.rtings.com/mouse/reviews/elecom/huge-m-ht1drbk

There’s also the slightly smaller Deft Pro (https://switchandclick.com/elecom-deft-pro-review/) which I also own and use for travel — it has a superior scroll wheel and therefore may be a superior choice for you.

For me the Huge has a perfect form factor that outweighs all else.

On mac I use steermouse to map the buttons.

I promise to stop being a trackball pusher now.

That Elecom is reasonably priced. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Maybe GameBall[1]. It have 6 buttons and vertical and horizontal scroll.

[1]: https://www.gamingtrackball.com/

Maybe touch pad on a laptop?

Does this help you? https://www.linuxuprising.com/2019/09/how-to-disable-gnomes-...

I also prefer a real scroll bar because it's easier to accurately scan through huge files, but I'm honestly confused at the idea of not having a scroll wheel in 2022.

Excluding touch/gesture mice like the Magic Mouse, I don't think I've seen a mouse without a scroll wheel in maybe 15 years. Is it just a hardy relic, or do you have some kind of special design for accessibility?

Edit: Nevermind, sorry I just noticed the other reply that asked the same thing. It's still a very unusual confluence of requirements, but I kinda get it with a track-ball.

As a big fan of keyboards with trackpoints/pointing-sticks, I completely agree. 1px scrollbars are a pain to use.

I have a real scrollbar on firefox with KDE.

Touch users don't use the scroll bar, they just swipe up/down.

Because you can’t use the scroll bar on mobile, it’s impossible to get hold of.

Swiping is a pain if you need to jump up and down on larger pages.

It’s really easy on iOS at least. It shows up when you scroll. Holding on it causes a haptic click and now you can drag the scroll bar.

Speak for yourself. Firefox on my PinePhone is not pure overlay scrollbars like almost all other mobile platforms, and I certainly appreciate the ability to manipulate the scrollbar to achieve more scrolling with less effort, and to jump to different parts of long documents with it with just a touch rather than potentially multiple swipes.

He wants an option for a mouse...