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Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by sergioisidoro on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:12AM (#29316498)
Many times I think "what today will sound absurd in the future?".

Our widespread and normalised alcohol abuse is one of the things crossing my mind, and I wonder if many ads related to vaping, smoking and alcohol will look like this for us in a few years.

Edit: To clarify, what I mean with normalising alcohol abuse is not getting a bit of a buzz with a few glasses of wine or beer in a social setting. It's how we've normalised getting completely hammered every weekend, and even celebrate people who can drink a lot.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by enriquto on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:28AM (#29316607)
> what today will sound absurd in the future?

The incredible amount of sugar that we eat and give to our kids. There is already a clear trend of "hiding" sugar from the ingredients. The label "No sugars added" gives a really positive meaning. But most processed foods are still chock-full of sugar. I guess in 20 or 30 years sugar products will be labeled with scary labels like tobacco is today.

As for alcohol, I don't think so. People will still want to get wasted, even knowing that it is bad for the health.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by chimprich on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:12AM (#29316911)
> As for alcohol, I don't think so. People will still want to get wasted, even knowing that it is bad for the health.

In a better world we'd have a good substitute for alcohol that had similar effects but much less serious health concerns. This should be a major research target, but for stupid political reasons it isn't.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:22AM (#29318120)
There's a whole zoo of recreational drugs that are safer to do in moderation than alcohol is to do consistently. Rather than replace alcohol, I think we should just get better at educating:

- when is it safe to use a given drug?

so we can get to the business of exploring:

- which drugs are best paired with which intentions, moods, environments, etc?

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by chimprich on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @02:58PM (#29322541)
> There's a whole zoo of recreational drugs that are safer to do in moderation than alcohol is to do consistently

Which ones are you thinking of? Are any of them similar to alcohol in effects? (Light euphoria, increased socialisation, mild confidence boost, pleasant method of application?)

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by GDC7 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:24AM (#29316988)
> In a better world we'd have a good substitute for alcohol that had similar effects but much less serious health concerns

You are thinking about self administration of GHB, but people need to be really careful because 2 mL is a recipe for a fun night, whereas 7 mL will get you in ICU.

Bur vis-a-vis alcohol it has big advantages. No liver problems, no kidney problems, no clogging of arteries, no cardiomiopathy or inflammation...

But again people need to be paranoid before its use, in order to diligently respect the quantities.

The administration at a party would be a gig for companies, because you'd need the same level of professionality as say the security services for a VIP party.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by donkeyd on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:56AM (#29317825)
GHB is a horrible alternative to alcohol. I really don't understand why you think that is not the case. GHB is highly addictive, dosing is hard, it's really unhealthy with long term use and is nearly impossible to stop doing once you're addicted.

In the Netherlands, the percentage of people that relapse after rehabilitating from GHB is the highest of all drugs, including alcohol.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by GDC7 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:43AM (#29318336)
> In the Netherlands, the percentage of people that relapse after rehabilitating from GHB is the highest of all drugs, including alcohol.

Humans love alcohol-like feelings, so the comparison is vis-a-vis against alcohol.

Alcohol relapse statistics are on a much higer sample given how widespread it is, whereas for G the sample is much smaller.

Also among the people who don't relapse are also included in those who die or have their bodies so screwed up that have no alternative but quitting if they want to keep living. Alcohol does that to a whole lot of people who technically don't relapse....but don't breath anymore either.

G doesn't cause any liver, heart, kidney, cardiac, valvular, stomach, arterial, testicular damage, so of course people will come back for more.

If the only negative effects are psychological then it's a testimony to the amazing proprieties of the substance.

Also in science the standard practice is that if you can't measure it then there is no point talking about it or even discussing it.

We don't know what happens inside our brains, the mechanisms of addiction and so forth.. we can only evaluate the effects.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by dylan604 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:57AM (#29318506)
>Humans love alcohol-like feelings, so the comparison is vis-a-vis against alcohol.

Some humans love the feeling of being in an inebriated state commonly brought on by the use of alcohol. The amount of people addicted to other drugs shows it is not just the drunkeness of alcohol people are after. However, the simple fact that alcohol is legal and readily available means that's the thing people use to achieve this inebriated state. Allow other substances to be legal and destigmatized the way alcohol has been, and you will see numbers change.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by GDC7 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:04AM (#29318600)
You have it the other way around.

Alcohol is legal because people love to be inebiated more than they like being stoned or on a paranoid coke binge, or nodding off due to heroin

Majority rules , and so the preference with regards to the feeling of being inebriated + collective risk tolerance of society + the variability of alcoholic beverages + the low cost of the substance made it so that alcohol emerged .

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by engineeringwoke on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:30AM (#29318930)
No, it's because primates have been eating rotten fruit for tens of thousands of years to get high, and primates can't run a chemistry lab.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by donkeyd on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @11:09AM (#29319488)
> Alcohol relapse statistics are on a much higer sample given how widespread it is, whereas for G the sample is much smaller.

Does that imply we can never compare smaller data sets with larger ones? GHB is becoming a huge issue in the Netherlands to the point that there aren't enough rehab spots. So I would assume the amount of data is not insignificant and can therefore be compared.

> Alcohol does that to a whole lot of people who technically don't relapse....but don't breath anymore either.

So does GHB.

> G doesn't cause any liver, heart, kidney, cardiac, valvular, stomach, arterial, testicular damage, so of course people will come back for more.

You retort to my argument was that the data set for GHB was much smaller. How does that not matter with your argument?

Also, GHB is associated with cognitive changes and potential brain damage. So you might come back for more, but you won't be the same person:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181008104628.h...

> Also in science the standard practice is that if you can't measure it then there is no point talking about it or even discussing it.

Which part can't you measure? You can measure relapse percentages. You can measure addiction rates. You can measure the length of an addiction. You can measure the physiological and metal impact of an addiction.

And it's not like nobody is doing that either.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by GDC7 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @11:49AM (#29320051)
> So does GHB.

No, the only way to die via GHB is to overdose on it. Alcohol instead sets you body on fire with inflammation and such inflammation attacks all tissues including vital ones which I mentioned and will repeat: heart, liver, kidneys, arteries, pancreas...

> You retort to my argument was that the data set for GHB was much smaller. How does that not matter with your argument?

Because we know that the cause for all that damage is inflammation, between alcohol and G only the former causes inflammation.

> Also, GHB is associated with cognitive changes and potential brain damage. So you might come back for more, but you won't be the same person:

Leave aside the brain, except for physical phenomenons such as blood, plaques, cancer....we really don't know what happens in there or why. We can't even predict our own thoughts 10 seconds from now..leave alone complex things such as cognition on a general scale and most importantly the ability to measure it.

Also let's assume we did know, say all that we know today is effectively what happens in the brain. Given that premise we also have to take for good the data that we have about the depression/anxiety epidemic, which is very widespread according to today's research.

Today research also tells us that prolonged anxiety/depression causes damage to the body, reduces cognition and IQ and trims years off a person's life.

Well, considering all the above...both alcohol and G seem a better alternative than becoming subject to the depression epidemic which causes both a reduction in quality of life, as well as a reduction in quantity of life. Alcohol is superior in terms of quality of life, unfortunately it also shortens quantity of life, but G has them both beaten because it prevents depression AND doesn't cause inflammation to tissues, so G is better for both quality and quantity of life.

Of course if you are a person who is naturally on cloud 9 all the time and essentially immune to the depression epidemic (meaning that you are essentially clueless about the world), then you are better off not taking anything.

But at that point you are also better off not leaving the house because leaving the house also has risks, and why would you take risks if you are essentially a buddha who is always on cloud 9 and perfectly happy and content the way things are and everything else is pushing on a string?

So even if we allowed for a perfect knowledge of our brains, if we take into consideration the median urban Western citizen who is always on the brink of depression then G is better than alcohol and all the other drugs used to solve depression, both prescribed (benzo, SSRIs...) and those used for self-medication purposes (alcohol, cocaine, MDMA, crack, weed..)

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by mjbeswick on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:13AM (#29318012)
You mention GHB, but as you mention to dosing in ml I expect you actually mean GBL.

It's really not as safe as you make out, as the dose needed to OD isn't much more than a recreational dose. When you overdose on GHB you can become aggressive, lose consciousness, lose all short term memories; and worse case fall into a coma and even die. The margin of error is just too small!

If you take GHB for a long time you can build up a tolerance and become dependant one it. The withdrawal is terrible and depending on how dependant some os can result in post acute withdrawal syndrome, in which case you can't just stop taking it as the result could be fatal.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by enriquto on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:58AM (#29317235)
> need to be really careful because 2 mL is a recipe for a fun night, whereas 7 mL will get you in ICU.

But it's the same thing with regular alcohol, isn't it? Half a bottle of liquor is a fun night, whereas three bottles surely will kill you. As long as it is diluted in practical quantities it doesn't seem like a big deal.

That said, they'll pry my saturday evening glass of scotch from my cold, dead hands.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by GDC7 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:24AM (#29317475)
The problem is that it's really really hard to gulp down 3 bottles of liquor.

Plus unlike G you are not involved in the preparation, a better comparison would be having a substance called super-duper-liquor that you'd have to dilute yourself with water in order to make sure that it's indeed 3 bottles of liquor needed to send you in ICU.

If you screw up the dilution of the super-duper-liquor you can end up in ICU after just a sip, and you'd not notice because it doesn't have a taste or a smell.

Plus let's face it, humans were never made to deal with liquid quantities in mL , we were made to deal in liters or even deca-liters, because that's the measuring unit of the most important liquid for humans: H2O

Few mL of water aren't good for anything.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by erikbye on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:50AM (#29317746)
> super-duper-liquor that you'd have to dilute yourself

We have that in Norway, hjemmebrent, we just call it 9 6 (96%), aka moonshine.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by codetrotter on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:21AM (#29318111)
Also illegal and not sold in stores.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by kaslai on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:50AM (#29318413)
In the US, 95% ABV Everclear is readily available in most states. 75.5% ABV Everclear is available in even more. It's the easiest way to get near azeotropic food safe ethanol for making extracts.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by kevinmchugh on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:01AM (#29317268)
We often choose to consume alcohol in a setting with trained, paid drug administrators. There's some safety features to that.

But we also can self-administer, in large part because you can see how strong a drink is, right on the package.

I think GP is suggesting that, absent the lobbying power of the alcohol industry, you might see commercial development of safer ways of dosing alternatives.

If you could go to the store and buy a sealed bottle with 0.5mg ghb that might be compelling for some folks?

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by mjbeswick on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:19AM (#29318074)
It's a nice idea, but GHB really isn't safe.

While it's pretty hard to kill yourself with alcohol, but very easy using GHB. Even experienced users mess up with GHB, as it matters how much you are taking over time, and how much is being absorbed.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by dylan604 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:02AM (#29318575)
Are you calling bar tenders trained paid drug administrators making it sound like they have medical training? I want to go to the bars you visit. Of all the bar tenders or waitstaff that I have ever met, the closest to medical training were from the ones attending med school and working at the bar to pay for it. I don't think that qualifies.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by kevinmchugh on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @11:00AM (#29319318)
It's more that I've known friends who think it's appropriate to put 3oz vodka in lemonade and call that a single drink, or they don't measure at all and one drink has 1oz of vodka and the next has 2.5.

At bars you get pretty consistent pours, bartenders are watching for overconsumption and often for potential DUIs. And you don't, typically, have to worry about a bartender spiking a drink with something else.

All of that helps make alcohol consumption with strangers safer.

A lot of the drug safety education for alcohol boils down to knowing how much alcohol is in each drink, and that there's nothing else intoxicating in it.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by dylan604 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @11:39AM (#29319909)
>A lot of the drug safety education for alcohol boils down to knowing how much alcohol is in each drink, and that there's nothing else intoxicating in it.

A lot of drug saftey education for anything boils down to knowing how much of it is in each serving, and that there's nothing else surprising in it. Knowing your drugs are important whether that's ibuprofen, alcohol, MDMA, etc. Obviously, much more risky with recreational drugs with people looking to spike with other things for the pizzazz or cutting costs, or buying pharma drugs from less than reputible sources.

However, there were a rash of people getting sick/hurt from receiving alcohol from bars at resorts in Mexico. So edge cases are always going to be there.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by GDC7 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:34AM (#29317576)
> I think GP is suggesting that, absent the lobbying power of the alcohol industry, you might see commercial development of safer ways of dosing alternatives.

Well yes, substances are like religions, and alcohol is like Christianity.

Nobody knows how or why it emerged, maybe one of the reason is that you could ballpark doses and unless you really screw up or have a deathwish you'd be able to survive and reproduce.

Same thing for Christianity, there is not a whole lot of stuff in there that prompts people to get in harms way.

Whatever the reason, it's now grandfathered in and it will be really hard to change this.

The fact that the alcohol lobby tries to fight alternatives, and also the fact that there is an alcohol lobby at all...is somehow embedded in society.

I honestly don't know why we are managing to get rid of cigarettes which were similarly grandfathered in and are much lower risk than alcohol

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by QuercusMax on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:13AM (#29318715)
Alcohol is naturally occurring and ridiculously easy to make. Squeeze some fruit juice and let it sit, and it will ferment just from the wild yeasts on the fruit skins. All kinds of animals like alcohol, and will get drunk from fermenting fruit fallen from trees. There's no mystery here.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by hoffspot on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:06AM (#29317925)
I think a helpful contributing factor is that cigarettes are immediately annoying and unhealthy to the people around the user so you had the non users motivated to stop the users.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by GDC7 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:55AM (#29318473)
A drunk person is also annoying , no?

Being around a drunk person maybe also statistically unhealthy given the increased risk of falls, accidents, psychological damage?

I don't know, it's one of those things where I can't point which was the reason.

If I had to guess, maybe it was babies, kids and pregnant women. People don't get shitfaced around those categories but they had to endure passive smoke.

And the reduction in cigarette consumption is to be ascribed to that, plus society being less and less fond of stimulants due to risk averseness (this includes nictoine and also cocaine consumption which are both way down compared to the 70s-80s-90s)

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by dragonwriter on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:20AM (#29318801)
> A drunk person is also annoying , no?

The vast majority of people who drink aren't drunk, and not everyone who is drunk is unpleasant; everyone who smokes is putting out irritating smoke.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by kevinmchugh on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:54AM (#29319240)
Intoxication can be annoying and dangerous. Changing the intoxicant doesn't help much.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by gavinray on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:02AM (#29317886)
Came here to say this, GHB is what the commenter is asking for.

My partner is legally prescribed it for narcolepsy (Xyrem), and takes 4.5mL twice a night.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by engineeringwoke on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:27AM (#29318898)
I can think of few stranger things that I have experienced in my life than being around a group of G hounds. It's like the Twilight Zone, and no, G is not safe and the effects are quite different than alcohol. It would never be widely popular to do a drug that so easily creates lapses in short-term memory... I think it is well-known why that is.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by gavinray on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:33AM (#29318975)
You can make the same argument about alcohol.

Plenty of homeless drunkards in the streets, alcoholism is rampant.

  > G is not safe
Sure. Side effects of alcohol overdose include death by alcohol poisoning.

Side effects of GHB overdose include death by central nervous system depression + consequent respiratory arrest.

Side effects of Tylenol overdose include an excruciatingly painful, multi-day death from multiple organ failure.

See the pattern?

Both drinking and GHB are capable of causing memory loss.

  > The effects are quite different than alcohol
This is subjective. To me, it feels exactly like "More euphoric alcohol, without the stupidity/reduced cognitive facilities drinking brings, and not toxic-feeling on my body."

YMMV.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by engineeringwoke on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:57AM (#29319289)
It takes a whole lot of alcohol to get the equivalent of that G zombie look. And the latter can easily kill you. GHB is not a panacea. It can turn people into animals.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by somehnacct3757 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:06AM (#29317309)
I think cannabis will eclipse alcohol once enough states legalize, and the federal winds shift in response.

It has no hangover. Its long term effects are not understood (a boon vs alcohol where they're known and bad.) It's edible and drinkable. And it makes your patrons buy food. The bar of tomorrow will serve cannabis infused cocktails alongside alcohol. From the moment of federal deregulation it will only take a few years, like the arrival and commoditization of boozy seltzers. Today's cannabis manufacturers in legalized states are already building the infrastructure to hit the ground running.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by mracette on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:53AM (#29317779)
Yea I think you’re underestimating the euphoric effects of alcohol.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by mywittyname on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:53AM (#29318454)
With pot, there are various types of highs that can be produced. With alcohol, there's just one.

Plus, there are people out there who don't experience euphoria from alcohol, it instead throws them into a depressive spiral.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by zwirbl on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:10AM (#29318665)
You can definitely produce different highs with alcohol, getting drunk from vodka is different to wine is different to beer. In the end one is drunk, yes, but feeling is still quite distinct. So pretty much the same as with pot, where you can have vastly different highs but in the end are just that: high
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by JohnWhigham on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:14AM (#29318721)
Not my experience at all. Give weed to 10 different people, and they'll experience 12 different reactions to it. With alcohol, it's more or less roughly the same for everyone.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by tlb on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:47AM (#29317716)
What has been preventing this happening in legal states already? Green bars and restaurants exist, but are a tiny segment of the market.

I suspect it's that alcohol and socialization go well together, while cannabis doesn't so it's better to enjoy it at home than at a bar.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by hoffspot on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:09AM (#29317979)
One contributing factor could be social stigma. The soccer moms of the world were brought up to "say No to drugs" where cannabis was one of those drugs. You can pry their glass of wine out of their cold, dead hands but I've personally seen them very nervous about a low dose edible. Perhaps some time and federal legalization will change that.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by EvRev on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:28AM (#29318180)
The current breeding techniques have produced varieties that are not conducive to the socialization (i.e. sativa vs indica). After legalization the market will need to have the marketing for sativas/socialization strains that will drive the development of happy/euphoric/uplifiting strains that do not promote sleep.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by guythedudebro on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:55AM (#29318471)
Lol. Society just hasn't tried the right strain yet
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by bikingbismuth on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:06AM (#29318622)
I wonder if the economics will align to make this attractive to bar owners. When I go to the bar I will usually spend around $50-100 on drinks depending if I am drinking cocktails or wine.

Given that THC seems to be hard to precisely dose, I am not sure that a bar could figure out how to make cocktails or edibles that give a sufficiently small amount to encourage patrons to buy multiple items.

Also, alcohol works in a few minutes, but THC takes a lot longer. I wonder if we would see an increase of over consumption because people are impatient to get their buzz.

Fwiw, I like THC is small quantities from time to time, but I consume at home and watch a movie. Being in a loud public space which high seems like a nightmare to me.

Either way, it will be interesting to see what the future holds.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by QuercusMax on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:16AM (#29318755)
Some of the newer THC drinks take effect pretty quickly in my experience - maybe as fast as drinking alcohol.

It's certainly more processed than homemade weed brownies, but much more reliable and much quicker (minutes for effect vs hours).

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by bikingbismuth on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @12:39PM (#29320663)
Interesting, I was not aware of that. I have noticed that drinking mushroom tea as opposed to eating dried mushrooms does have a quicker onset, so that makes sense to me. (Sadly, it is also consistent in making me vomit.)
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by antihero on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:31AM (#29318212)
Yeah no, being high is a totally different and unpredictable thing to being buzzed on alcohol.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by fossuser on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:25AM (#29318160)
I’m not so sure, it seems to make people more delusional over time and more paranoid and anxious even from low dose usage.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by brutusborn on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:10AM (#29318666)
It _is_ a research target, and progress is going well! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt

I'm interested as to where you got the idea of "stupid political reasons" blocking research, he literally released a good substitute this year.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by chimprich on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @02:53PM (#29322488)
Nutt's work was indeed one of the things I was thinking about. However, I think they're going to have a huge challenge to get their compound licensed.

From the article you link to: "Nutt is also campaigning for a change in UK drug laws to allow for more research opportunities".

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by account42 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:50AM (#29316759)
One negative consequences of the "no sugars added" is that it makes it harder to see how sweet something is because now instead of sugar its all artificial sweeteners in many things that don't need them at all.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by Robotbeat on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:17AM (#29318766)
Or, like, filtered apple juice instead of sugar. Which is the same thing as sugar (well actually fructose) but with a little apple essence thrown in.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by Ma8ee on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:01AM (#29316841)
It’s not that hard to read the nutrition facts label on your food packaging.

https://www.fda.gov/food/new-nutrition-facts-label/how-under...

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by millzlane on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:16AM (#29316935)
What about the labels that doesn't list the sugar in the facts but lists Aspartame in the ingredients? It says it has a sweetener but doesn't say how much. Funny enough Aspartame doesn't appear anywhere on the page you linked to.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by Ma8ee on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:45AM (#29317140)
What about them? What is it you would like to know and how would the information help?
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by barrkel on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:59AM (#29317246)
From the comment you first replied to: harder to see how sweet something is

It was never about sugar content, but how sweet something is.

Overly sweet things can be unpleasant to an adult palate, or one accustomed to a culture of less sweet things. In simpler times, sugar content was a somewhat reliable metric of sweetness (of course it can be balanced by acid, tannins, salt etc.), so you could select a product without needing to taste it first.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by watwut on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:58AM (#29317842)
> In simpler times, sugar content was a somewhat reliable metric of sweetness (of course it can be balanced by acid, tannins, salt etc.),

In simpler times, there were no labels to judge sugary content. The regulation in USA came in 2011. In simpler times, you bought the thing and did not cared about sugar at all. Later on, you engaged in culture war whether calories should be on labeling or whether such regulation is nanny statism.

Plus, I will go out and say that amount of people who would regularly check packages to learn how sweet it is and thus estimate taste before buying was super low. It is not a great proxy in the first place.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by barrkel on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:51AM (#29318429)
Carbohydrates have been shown in Ireland ever since I can remember, at least 30 years. For many things - drinks especially - carbohydrates is a straight proxy for sugars.

I still rely on it. Fruit juices touting how natural they are, but bulking out on sugar via apple or orange juice, is really common. You learn to watch out for it in various snacks for toddlers too.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by Ma8ee on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @03:29PM (#29323005)
You can quite confidently conclude that if it contains artificial sweeteners, it is quite sweet, and way too sweet for my taste.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by millzlane on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:59AM (#29317244)
Artificial sweeteners effect your health. It would be nice to know how much is in there. The information would help a person to avoid the food combinations with Aspartame that decrease the rate of metabolism. But yea I guess a person could just read the label and just believe whatever it tells them.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by Ma8ee on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @03:31PM (#29323045)
Are you suggesting that there is common and widespread fraud with how food is labelled, to the extent that labels no longer can be trusted?
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by FourthProtocol on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:09AM (#29317338)
What about just buying fresh fruit, vegetables and if meat it your thing, fresh, unprocessed meat?
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by millzlane on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:14AM (#29317380)
I buy and eat all of those things. We're talking about Nutrition fact labels and sweeteners friend.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by platz on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:17AM (#29316946)
if artificial sweetner is calorically inert why do you care
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by DougWebb on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:26AM (#29317004)
Because calorically inert and metabolically inert are not the same thing.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by Robotbeat on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:18AM (#29318780)
I don’t think it’s a direct metabolic effect but an effect on how hunger it makes you and how it effects the sensation of other things you consume.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by dagw on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:04AM (#29317292)
Because it has a very strong, unpleasant and overpowering taste in too large quantities.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by Timpy on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:34AM (#29317060)
Calorie is not the only metric for health
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by wonderwonder on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:28AM (#29318909)
Some people like to know what they are putting in their bodies.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by collaborative on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:37AM (#29316655)
I hope you are right about sugar. People are doling out candy to kids like it's their duty these days
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by drewg123 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:50AM (#29318417)
The sad thing is that sugar is everywhere, not just in candy. I was in the local hospital for surgery, and the "juice" they gave me to drink when I was recovering was so sweet that it could have doubled for syrup. The first 2 ingredients were 2 different kinds of sugar.

I think its because they were purchasing the cheapest "juice" they could find, but my friends joked that they were trying to give people diabetes to increase business.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by papito on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:15AM (#29317387)
The book "The Dorito Effect" goes into this a lot. Basically, the sugar substitutes are often discovered in food labs by accident (someone didn't wash their hands and licked their fingers, ew). These substances are tens of thousands of times more sweet than sugar, allowing for "zero" amount in the final product.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by ponyous on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:09AM (#29316892)
Especially in US, I don't think people realise how bad they have it there in terms of sugar. Even pizzas tasted sweet when I was in a random fast food place...
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by Sharlin on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:56AM (#29317818)
> As for alcohol, I don't think so. People will still want to get wasted, even knowing that it is bad for the health.

Alcohol advertising is already highly regulated compared to past decades. Smoking even more. Even professional magazines in the 60s and 70s used to have alcohol and cigarette ads every few pages. Not to mention that alcohol use was much less frowned upon at the workplace, especially in certain fields.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by TheJoeMan on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:09AM (#29316893)
There are large black hexagonal warnings on Coca-Cola cans for sale in Mexico. It doesn’t seem to change much except look ugly.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by kilroy123 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:53AM (#29317781)
I sure hope so. I went sugar free a few years ago and I have zero regrets.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by hattar on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:32AM (#29318218)
I have tried doing this a few times but always ended up stumped and eventually gave up. It’s difficult to find processed foods (e.g. yogurt, cereal, peanut butter) without sugar and so easy to mistakenly get foods with sugar on accident. Baked goods of almost all kinds have sugar by necessity, so they’re generally out. This doesn’t even account for the natural sugars in fruits and the like.

How committed are you to no sugar and how have you addressed all that? I’d love to try again with some better strategies.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by enriquto on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @12:30PM (#29320542)
> I’d love to try again with some better strategies.

In my case I have found it helpful to not quit sugar cold turkey, but gradually. First I stopped buying and using refined sugar at all (putting it in coffee, yogurt, etc.) This is quite easy. Then, avoid buying products whose ingredient list starts with sugar, like marmalade, "milk" chocolate, cereals and the like. This is a bit harder since it requires to pay attention to most products you buy, but still quite feasible. Then, once I was used to spot sugar at the beginning of the ingredient list, I began to read the whole list of ingredients, and avoid products that contained any sugar at all. For example: pre-cut carrots with lemon and ciboulette? whole wheat bread loafs? what on earth can be healthier than those things? Yet both of them contain sugar, in all the brands that I checked!

I started this "program" about three years ago and now I feel slightly healthier, nothing spectacular, but still. The thing is that now I notice immediately when something is too sugary. To the point of it being disgusting. For example, I have real trouble finishing a piece of cake in a birthday party (after fighting my urge to be a jerk about it and refuse it altogether).

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by kilroy123 on Wednesday November 24, 2021 @07:31AM (#29329332)
I was only able to do this by also doing intermittent fasting. I replaced sugar with some more blood sugar friendly substitutes like stevia and some erythritol. (I like to go light on this stuff though)

I eat very low carb compared to most Americans. (Not keto just low carb)

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by crdrost on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @11:46AM (#29320026)
I see this comment and feel so bad for past you!

Why are we treating all sugars as the same? They are not the same.

Some baked goods have sugar in order to feed yeast, rather than humans... Pizza dough, bagels, croissants. Yes these all come in dessert varieties, but it's not the default option.

Especially when you start getting to dumping on fresh fruit, it's like, no, please don't commit yourself to a bland beige life like that! Plants are masters of poisons and trickery, e.g. capsaicin (what makes peppers spicy) makes our mouths burn, but not the mouths of birds—who spread their seeds. Plants use fructose specifically because it's not dextrose and therefore it's hard for bacteria to digest: because they want us to eat this fruit and scatter the pit. Indeed they make the fruit sweet rather rapidly, “now now, it's ready now!”, to signal an optimal “it’s not poisonous! now you-scratch-my-back-I’ll-scratch-yours” moment to us.

Plants even look out for our longer-term health, those bright colors that we find so attractive are usually signaling to us these really important antioxidants that we need. As long as we don't freeze or puree the cell walls into oblivion, the resulting fiber traps some sugars and feeds it not to us but to our gut bacteria, who then don't starve and eat our GI linings...

“let's not eat foods that I know are healthy, to satisfy arbitrary rules I made up to keep myself healthy”... really?

So if zero tolerance is out, what remains?

• Set a low sugar target, “no more than 10% of my calories from sugars.”

• Prefer stuff with a shelf life. If it has an expiration date rather than a nutrition label, great!

• Don't worry about the natural sugar in yogurt, the lactose, unless you're lactose-intolerant. But don't buy the flavored versions as they are sugary enough to classify as desserts for breakfast. Instead do what the Dutch do—buy the plain stuff and cut the sour yourself with added whole grains and fresh fruit.

• “Don't even let it in your house” the other stuff. Guilty pleasures for me include chocolate and jam, I try to make sure that I don't have these in-stock...

• The grocer is a pilgrimage. What I mean is, it's tempting to zigzag your way through and see everything, and this is also why shopping takes forever! But pilgrims usually make a big walk around a structure before diving into the middle for a brief flirtation/unveiling of divinity. A good grocery run too walks around the aisles at the edges, fresh fruit and veg, fresh baked goods, meat and poultry, dairy... And it makes targeted trips into the middle only for things that it needs. You've got a list of the things you'll dip into the middle for, after all, and if your grocery trips are short then if you miss something, you can take another short grocery trip later in the week and still save time and money. Small batch sizes, lean manufacturing!

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by it_does_follow on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:01AM (#29318564)
> what today will sound absurd in the future?

I quite seriously suspect that answer will be "24 hour electricity and grocery stores where you can buy food from anywhere in the world"

> Our widespread and normalised alcohol abuse

Until pandemic we've lived in a fairly teetotaling era. I suspect for the next decade we'll see an increase in casual drinking, becoming more similar to the 1950s. If you watch any films from that era very strong cocktails are basically a standard for just about any social occasion, any time of the day. The pandemic has instantly changed peoples views on alcohol and other drugs, what's coming the immediate future will likely continue this trend.

The immediate future generations will likely look back on ours as a bizarre blend of incredibly wasteful prudes. A generation of people who gluttonously destroyed the planet while at the same time being too timid to let themselves enjoy it. I think the reaction will be a large one of revulsion "you destroyed the planet and you didn't even let yourself have fun doing it? you lived at work for what?"

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by JohnWhigham on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:12AM (#29318693)
I quite seriously suspect that answer will be "24 hour electricity and grocery stores were you can buy food from anywhere in the world"

Uh, I think that's going to be the norm in the future if anything...

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by dougmwne on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:08AM (#29318643)
I’m curious what you’ve been seeing that’s given you the view that drug and alcohol use has increased a lot post-pandemic. I assume you mean in the US context?

I truly hope the answer isn’t 24 hour electricity, given how cheap it is to produce. That would represent a major backslide in human capability. I’m not fully against other drawdown strategies, but surely we can leave the lights on.

And yes, we are simultaneously so destructive and so unhappy. What a terrible waste.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by it_does_follow on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:24AM (#29318849)
> that’s given you the view that drug and alcohol use has increased a lot post-pandemic.

It's fairly well studied in the medical literature [0, 1] and reported on pretty regularly in popular media as well [2]

0. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7763183/

1. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...

2. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/09/22/covid-...

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by dougmwne on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:50AM (#29319204)
Interesting. I wonder how this will have changed after vaccines became widely available. If it was a temporary increase vs long term.

Personally, I bought a nice 1.5 l bottle of scotch a week before lockdowns began, but never bought any hard liquor since I got my vaccine.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by throwaway47292 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:26AM (#29316591)
Alcohol is like the oil of the giant social machine, I believe everything will crumble without it. How many of the jobs that keep the world running can be done if people don't drink to forget?

Just imagine the people that have to pee in bottles, being abused on daily basis by their boss, by their customers, and then they cant take drugs? for how long?

The facebook moderators, or the call center oberators..

As bad as it is, without some real changes, alcohol is almost mandatory.

ps: I don't drink, but most of my friends drink.

pps: what i think will sound absurd is the horrific ways of industrial animal farming.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by oceanplexian on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:46AM (#29318368)
Come to Utah if you want to observe that reality because most of the locals don’t drink alcohol. You’ll find safe, perfectly manicured suburban neighborhoods where young kids ride bikes in the street, a fast growing economy, and the highest birth rate of any US state.

I’m personally not religious, I drink and so on, but it has me thinking that maybe some of the things society tells us to value are greatly misguided.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by LinuxBender on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:08AM (#29317326)
Facebook just hires the wrong people for moderators. There is a massive untapped talent pool on 4chan and they wouldn't even see it as work.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by adriand on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:52AM (#29316775)
It’s not just the jobs, it’s also the awareness of what we’re doing to the planet and our future. When you get seized by the panicky feeling that we’re on track to end it all, one solution is to say “fuck it” and get drunk. I do it. I’m sure I’m not the only one.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by platz on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:22AM (#29316979)
I get it, you're special because you don't drink.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by selfhoster11 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:18AM (#29317427)
There are many reasons to not drink, including personal convictions, family history of alcohol abuse, health reasons, religious/belief reasons, not enjoying the feeling of being drunk, or simple lack of interest in drinking in the first place. Do not assume that parent is somehow trying to elevate themselves over anyone, you or drinkers in general.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by rfrey on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:37AM (#29317600)
I re-read your parent four or five times, searching for the smugness or self-righteousness that seemed to offend you. I could not find it.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by throwaway47292 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:45AM (#29317685)
i used to be borderline alcoholic, and managed to quit. mainly because my job allowed me to do so.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by gherkinnn on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:34AM (#29316635)
Humans have been boozing forever. It will stay, to one degree or another.

Us painting all sorts of phantasies using crypto and meta-things will be very funny to look back upon. Give it 5 years. Oh the naïveté.

Adtech and addiction machines will be another two (partially related) areas that we’ll be shaking our heads at.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by telesilla on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:35AM (#29317064)
As do many birds and other mammals! Giraffes and that fat New Zealand pigeon come to mind.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by throwanem on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:45AM (#29317137)
Not just mammals, either! Wasps aren't averse to getting lit up when it's late enough in the season for fruit to have fermented. Sometimes they get too wasted to fly home, like the bald-faced yellowjacket I found sleeping it off on one of my porch windows a few months back - there's a fig tree in my side yard with some branches too high to reach, and it was very popular with her and her sisters for a while this year.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by jl6 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:36AM (#29317587)
> what today will sound absurd in the future?

Mark my words:

1. Eating meat

2. Valorizing excess

3. Bonfires and fireworks

4. Anonymity

5. Air, noise, and light pollution

6. Having more than 2 kids

7. Proof of work

8. Buying new stuff all the time

9. Suits, ties and other western formalwear

10. Non-synthetic pornography

11. Academic papers

12. Golf

13. Body modification and tattoos

14. Lawns

15. Running unaudited code

16. Non-tailored medicine

17. Tribal politics

18. Daylight savings time

19. Circumcision

20. Burial

21. Men standing to pee

22. Treating 18-year-olds as full adults

23. Tipping

24. Advertizing

25. Imperial units

26. Coffee fetishization

27. Changing your name when marrying

28. Work-or-starve as the two primary options

29. Cosmetic products

30. Gender

31. Automotive fatalities

32. Demarcation between Movies and TV

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by donkeyd on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:49AM (#29317724)
With this list, you're guaranteed to be right about at least one thing. I'm pretty sure you'll be wrong about more than that though.

Unless of course, you're hinting that humanity will go extinct.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:27AM (#29318172)
Given long enough, he'll be right on all accounts.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by LocalH on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:33AM (#29318227)
Given long enough, it won't matter, because there won't be anyone around to consider those things "absurd"
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @11:48AM (#29320044)
And at that point, all 0 people will agree on the absurdity of the list
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by AussieWog93 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:51AM (#29317759)
A decent chunk of those appeal to fundamental desires that (for better or worse) are a part of the human condition and I can't imagine them disappearing any time soon.

I really do hope we move away from an economy that relies on advertising to produce consumer demand at an unhealthy scale, though.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by linspace on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:07AM (#29317944)
You are obviously talking about point 15, running unaudited code. Who knows, the future can be surprising.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by sergioisidoro on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:14AM (#29318025)
The only thing I disagree is "Body modification and tattoos". If any they will pick up a lot from here, with implantable technology. We will want to break free from our meat hardware, and body modifications is a step towards that.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by LocalH on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:32AM (#29318222)
Not to mention body modification has a rich, long history in humanity that's not going away anytime soon.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by celeritascelery on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:40AM (#29318293)
As do most other things on that list
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:44AM (#29318346)
I think we'll break the association between sex and gender, and we'll create contexts of more-than-two human genders, but types are too popular a feature in programming languages for me to believe that genders will ever find their way out of human languages--they both provide useful ways to reduce uncertainty while making concise references.

If everybody is a "they" then pronouns become less useful. Maybe we'll go through a stage like that while we rebel against binary-only gendered thinking, but eventually we'll want useful pronouns again and we'll reinvent gender.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by mda on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:12AM (#29318004)
Mark my words, at least 60% of your list is BS.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by jl6 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:21AM (#29318105)
Which 20 items do you think will never sound absurd?
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by cataphract on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:50AM (#29318419)
If having more than 2 kids is absurd, there won't be much of a future, since the population will eventually decline to 0.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by it_does_follow on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:04AM (#29318606)
I'm not sure you're aware of the future we're facing right now.

Continued unchecked growth coupled with increasing consumption is heading us towards an ecological catastrophe that quite seriously threatens the possibility of extinction, and at the very least looks like complete collapse of industrial civilization.

There is nothing worse you can do for the environment than bring another life into the world, especially if you live in the developed world.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by snarf21 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:11AM (#29317994)
Go over to The Long Now and place some bets on those. I think you will be wrong on almost all of these.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by tomerv on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:42AM (#29319100)
I seriously doubt many of your predictions.

2. Valorizing excess

Not sure what exactly you mean by this, but having more than you need and showing off is basic human behavior, and I don't see a reason that will change.

3. Bonfires and fireworks

Bonfires are fun and so are fireworks. They have some downsides, but not more than many other fun things we allow.

4. Anonymity

There will always be places where you can act anonymously or pseudo anonymously. See 4chan and bitcoin for example.

5. Air, noise, and light pollution

There will always be the next kind of not-yet-illegal pollution, and the person to profit from inflicting it upon the rest of us.

6. Having more than 2 kids

Most people will have 1-3 kids, some will have more. Nothing absurd about reproducing.

8. Buying new stuff all the time

See 1

12. Golf

Might be less popular, but why absurd?

13. Body modification and tattoos

Basic human desire to control your body and what you look like. If anything it will be more popular as technology improves.

15. Running unaudited code

With the halting problem on one hand (making automatic auditing impossible) and the high value of software on the other, I don't see any way around this anytime soon. Maybe some AI based solution.

16. Non-tailored medicine

One prediction I fully agree with! Especially many invasive examinations we consider standard today.

17. Tribal politics

Human nature...

20. Burial

Also human nature. Not the American style burial with the huge casket and embalming and whatnot. But some kind of burial will always be the norm.

21. Men standing to pee

???

23. Tipping 24. Advertizing

Human nature...

31. Automotive fatalities

Maybe on the road. But what about space fatalities?

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by reedf1 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:30AM (#29318201)
I agree with some (especially meat) but many of these seem like personal moralization.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by intrasight on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:33AM (#29318226)
OMG - what a coincidence is the timing of this thread as I happen to re-watch Demolition Man last night. Fun movie from 1993 that touches on the absurdity of both things we allow and things we don't allow.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by nickkell on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:49AM (#29317726)
> 13. Body modification and tattoos

Why do you say that? People have been doing it for hundreds of years and in the west it has become completely acceptable.

> 22. Treating 18-year-olds as full adults

In the US this isn't absurd even now!

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by jl6 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:19AM (#29318071)
Re body modification, I’m sure you’ll appreciate that people have been doing all manner of terrible things for centuries and many of those remain acceptable, even increasingly so. The pendulum may yet swing the other way. I’m betting on this one becoming viewed the same way we view testing in production.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by Bjartr on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @11:39AM (#29319901)
"centuries" undershoots the persistence of tattooing by several millennia. Direct evidence of humans having tattoos dates back to ~3200 BC with the remains of Ötzi "the Iceman".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi#Skeletal_details_and...

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by astrojams on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:29AM (#29318188)
I would love to live in this world.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by anthk on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:40AM (#29318301)
Most of those do not apply in lots of Europe:

At least 2, 14, 19, 23 and 25.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by newbamboo on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:09AM (#29318662)
21 is highly dubious and therefore 30 is too.
[dead]
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by nickkell on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:13AM (#29318706)
Thousands of years of evolution and we're still swinging clubs
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by dkdk8283 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:18AM (#29316541)
What’s the beef with alcohol?

Some people like to get fucked up, it’s irritating when I encounter opinions that shame it or otherwise imply that it needs to be stopped. Let those who want it have it.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by losvedir on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:13AM (#29317372)
It's about the same magnitude of an issue as with guns, I think. In both cases you have the vast majority of people responsibly partaking, but you can't deny that their presence makes some things much worse.

I think the dynamics and beliefs are similar between the two: your primary exposure to alcohol could be having fun with it and friends, or it could be from growing up in an alcoholic family. You could grow up thinking guns are just a normal, if somewhat dangerous, tool (like a lawnmower), or most exposure could come from salacious gun news stories. It will all color how you feel about the topics.

(stats from memory, but I think order of magnitude correct). 30k gun deaths a year, of which 20k are suicide. Self-inflicted death from alcohol dwarfs 20k, and deaths to others from, e.g., drunk driving are comparable to gun homicides. Then you have the splashy things like school shootings, which I think are roughly comparable to driving a car through a Christmas parade while intoxicated.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by 5e92cb50239222b on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:21AM (#29316562)
I like alcohol despite all its flaws, but it's hard to argue that it's doing an immense amount of damage even to those who don't drink it at all.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by dkdk8283 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:27AM (#29316598)
Behavior shouldn’t be projected on others.

If someone in your life is negatively affecting you consider changing who’s in your life.

We are only responsible for ourselves.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by boomboomsubban on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:35AM (#29316644)
Except children are a thing, and they both can't easily change who's in their lives and their parents are also responsible for them.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by dkdk8283 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:43AM (#29316708)
I can’t take that argument seriously. “Think of the children” is a dead horse.

Parents can also abuse emotions, marijuana, etc. Haven’t seen anyone advocating to curb marijuana here yet.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by jeromegv on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:09AM (#29317328)
The fact that you can’t understand the argument that alcohol and drug abuse can have serious impact on children means that you have serious blind spots in your life.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by dkdk8283 on Thursday November 25, 2021 @11:53AM (#29342853)
I choose not to, as I don’t believe it makes sense.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by Sebb767 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:05AM (#29318610)
> Haven’t seen anyone advocating to curb marijuana here yet.

You don't think a drug that's illegal in large parts of the world and for which legalization is a highly controversial topic is curbed?

Also, the parent comment clearly took children as an example of people who's live can be drastically worsened by someone else consuming alcohol. Drivers and and passerbys endangered by drunk drivers would be another good example.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by xnx on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:26AM (#29317005)
Drunk driving kills 10k/year in the US.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by fullstop on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:47AM (#29318381)
> If someone in your life is negatively affecting you consider changing who’s in your life.

Great idea! Now how do I get drunk people off of the roads?

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by selfhoster11 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:21AM (#29317448)
> We are only responsible for ourselves.

Not when your actions have consequences, which they do. Violence following alcohol abuse, or loss of family members due to alcohol abuse, is a thing.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by OneTimePetes on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:45AM (#29316715)
Atomized Individuals Propaganda without any love or attachment to others.

I know its the state/corpos wish that we are all interchangeable people-toner easy to pack into cartridges, easy to produce, easy to consume, but some of us cling to the old ways and others.

Sorry. Clingy, sticky, nasty, humans. The new man, you want to go towards will surely not have this flaws. What a marvellous ideal sociopath that will be.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by boomboomsubban on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:32AM (#29316624)
>Let those who want it have it.

And then heavily advertise it to those who don't. I'm not in favor of a return to prohibition, but it's strange how massive alcohol advertising is.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by dkdk8283 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:47AM (#29316737)
I ignore advertising I don’t agree with, just like I ignore opinionated news I disagree with.

I’d still fight for both to exist regardless of my beliefs.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by selfhoster11 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:22AM (#29317458)
I wouldn't fight for any advertising to exist - I want it all gone.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by watwut on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:08AM (#29316887)
There is ultra puritanic abstitential strain on HN.

Not a sarcasm, last week there was a person fully seriously that alcohol is as addictive as heroin. I am not exaggerating and it did not seemed as wink wink trolling either.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by michaelt on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @11:06AM (#29319431)
From a European perspective, America has a strange attitude to drinking, not just HN.

On one hand, America has counties where you can't buy alcohol at all, laws banning 20-year-old adults from buying alcohol, planning laws keeping pubs away from where people live, and even had a national alcohol ban at one time.

On the other hand, apparently the age laws are widely flouted? And everyone knows it but turns a blind eye? And drink-driving is so common that even if you kill someone, it's barely punished?

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by watwut on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @11:37AM (#29319866)
> On the other hand, apparently the age laws are widely flouted? And everyone knows it but turns a blind eye? And drink-driving is so common that even if you kill someone, it's barely punished?

In my experience, it perfectly describes Europe too. Maybe not drink-driving being common in all countries, but age laws being ignored is something I find normal.

If anything, in USA they make much much bigger deal over age laws then in Europe.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by wayoutthere on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:06AM (#29317311)
I would say given the age range on here (informally feels like majority ~35-45) there are also probably a lot of reformed alcoholics on HN. I wouldn’t say it’s as addictive as heroin, but is more dangerous in some ways (heroin withdrawal sucks but won’t kill you; alcohol withdrawal will.)

Personally, alcohol is related to some traumatic experiences so I don’t like feeling remotely drunk. I definitely had a problem when I quit.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by hprotagonist on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:46AM (#29317146)
teatotalism is one of those horseshoe topics. Always has been.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by darkwater on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:24AM (#29316584)
But it's the same with cocaine and almost any other drug. Alcohol IS a drug by all means. I agree with you that if someone wants to be fucked up and enjoy themselves, obviously not harming any other individual in the process (driving, getting into a fight etc), they should be free to do it. There should be a full disclosure of what long-term effects can be and regulated enough to avoid scams and shady marketing strategies but beside that...
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by 29athrowaway on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:19AM (#29317430)
During prohibition, there were companies that sold "wine bricks", or concentrated grape juice bricks.

They came with a warning that read: "Do NOT dissolve and leave on a cool cupboard for 21 days or it would turn it into wine".

It would be impossible to outlaw alcohol today. You can make alcohol out of anything.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by thrwyoilarticle on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:05AM (#29316863)
It's not a new beef, Islam is over 1000 years old.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by zikduruqe on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:43AM (#29317123)
> what today will sound absurd in the future?

Lawns. We spend an unnecessary amount of money, time, energy, chemicals and water on a plant that does not produce food nor any benefit other than it is visually pleasing. It is totally dumb.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by apozem on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:52AM (#29317765)
If anyone reading this is interested in more environmentally friendly ways to maintain a lawn, look into xeriscaping. If you pick good plants it can turn out really well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeriscaping

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by mracette on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:55AM (#29317808)
That’s far from the only benefit. Lawns have immense recreational value especially for families with children.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by OliverM on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:27AM (#29317502)
Lawns do have a flood control benefit in areas with lots of rainfall or that are prone to intense rainstorms. But so would the same land left to grow wild.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by macinjosh on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:04AM (#29317908)
Me, my dog and my two year old beg to differ that lawns are only about visuals.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by mmcgaha on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:58AM (#29317843)
If you don't have trees blocking the sun, something will grow in your yard and it will look a lot like a lawn.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by fullstop on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:36AM (#29318257)
Eh, I'm halfway there. I spend about 45 minutes a week, in the summer, cutting my grass. I don't use fertilizer or weed killer, so a lot of my lawn is actually clover. The benefits of this, for me are:

    * A place for my kids to play
    * Friends and family gather there
    * There are a few raised garden beds, so I get tomatoes, peas, peppers, and lettuce
    * It isolates me from the wooded area near me.  Mice and other pests generally stay over there and not in my house.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by mywittyname on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:54AM (#29319243)

    * It isolates me from the wooded area near me.  Mice and other pests generally stay over there and not in my house.
Yes, it turns out that lawns serve an enormously practical purposes. Beyond this, they are required by code in certain places, as grasses serve to inhibit soil erosion.

The original complaint should be amended to state something like, lawns in places where lawns can't be sustained by natural means. Lawns in places like arid regions are terrible. But a good portion of the USA has a climate capable of maintaining large lawns with little more than mowing.

In these places, you can't have large gravel expanses like you can in the south west, because grasses will naturally overtake it, leaving a nasty looking, patchy mess that can't be mowed without the risk of high-speed projectiles being shot from the mower deck.

So yeah, lawns aren't going anywhere, except in places where they are wholly artificial.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by kown7 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:17AM (#29317413)
It has always been a sign of wealth, i.e. no need to grow crops in front of your castle because you can afford it.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by __void on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:39AM (#29317091)
> normalised alcohol abuse

I don't think alcohol will ever be banned, man has been using alcohol for more than 10k years[0] and according to some theories[1] it was the consumption of alcohol and protein that favored brain development

(disclosure: I come from an Italian region that has the use and abuse of alcohol as one of cornerstones of society, so maybe I'm biased)

[0]https://www.foodtimeline.org/foodbeverages.html#winebeer

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunken_monkey_hypothesis

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by spodek on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:56AM (#29317219)
1. Flying at a whim, large vehicles, a/c 24/7, and related profligate fossil fuel burning. Today we think we're living at the peak of progress so far and that people in any other time would wish they were us.

Future generations will look back at horror at how we chose temporary indulgence over what makes us most human: caring for each other, especially the helpless and vulnerable, and stewarding nature.

2. Plastic, at least single-use, forever chemicals, and similar chemicals. Soon we will see them like asbestos or marketing cigarettes to kids. Yes, they increase the GDP, but they kill.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by RalfWausE on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:50AM (#29317174)
What could be more absurd than using a vehicle that weights more than a ton for moving (mostly) a single person?
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by misja111 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:11AM (#29316904)
The amount of opioids prescribed by dentists and family practitioners.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by patrickk on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:55AM (#29317209)
Gambling ads across much of Europe. It’s pervasive especially around football ad breaks.

I have a theory that at some stage VOCs (in furniture, carpets, laminated wood products, paints etc) that lead to sick building syndrome will be heavily clamped down on, but nowadays nobody bats an eyelid at new couches laden with formaldehyde or other substances.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by telotortium on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @12:16PM (#29320380)
> sick building syndrome

A lot of that, at least in the US, is due to having houses built more tightly for insulation, which stopped the natural air exchange from drafts that would normally occur. Now the building codes have been revised to mandate that a certain rate of air changes occurs even in houses, usually done using a heat exchanger: https://bcapcodes.org/tools/code-builder/residential/ventila...

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by mattowen_uk on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:03AM (#29317902)
> Gambling ads across much of Europe. It’s pervasive especially around football ad breaks

This. It's awful in the UK. Non-stop gambling adverts everywhere. They have to have a disclaimer on them and link to https://www.begambleaware.org/ but there's no rules it seems on how short or small the link needs to be. On some ads it literally flashes up for only 1 second at the end.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by wallaBBB on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:50AM (#29316760)
>what today will sound absurd in the future?

incarcerating people for little weed

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by demosito666 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:54AM (#29316786)
Or any other substance for that matter.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by ramblerman on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:15AM (#29316527)
The lindy effect would argue it's far more unlikely for opinions to change on alcohol than vaping/cocaine in the western world.

Lightly abusing some red wine goes back some ways.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by Aidevah on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:57AM (#29318512)
That's an interesting point, although the ancient Greeks only ever drank diluted wine, and they did believe that you could die from drinking wine at full strength. Undiluted wine was given to the helots so that their drunkenness served as a warning to the spartiates, and the death of one of the Spartan kings was partially attributed to madness caused by drinking undiluted wine, a habit which he picked up from the barbarians (although I admit that particular episode lends itself to many different interpretations).
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by si1entstill on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @10:24AM (#29318859)
> what today will sound absurd in the future?

The social acceptability of reliance on caffeine has always struck me as a bit odd. The effects aren't as stark, but I regularly have conversations with friends and coworkers who talk about how miserable they are if they don't get their three cups of coffee in the morning. I also feel that I see a correlation between those who feel they have low energy after the work-day and heavy caffeine users.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by the_gipsy on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @06:23AM (#29316573)
Maybe Social Network addiction?
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by adrianN on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:06AM (#29317303)
Burning fossil fuels. ICEs producing noxious gases right where people live.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by AussieWog93 on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:55AM (#29317805)
>Our widespread and normalised alcohol abuse is one of the things crossing my mind

At least in Australia (not known for drinking responsibly!), this was already starting to die off in my generation and the death is just accelerating amongst the next.

I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of Aussies born in 2050 didn't regularly drink at all.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by cblconfederate on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:19AM (#29316965)
Social media vanity and self-promotion is insane compared to any other era in history. It will look absurd in a decade.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by XCSme on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:16AM (#29317408)
Eating animals.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by JohnJamesRambo on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:01AM (#29317862)
I think thinking “stonks only go up” will feel very absurd in the next decade.

https://www.currentmarketvaluation.com/models/s&p500-mean-re...

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by donkeyd on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:06AM (#29317937)
50 years from now, I'll go with factory farming. I'm guessing that lab grown meat will be our main source of meat for daily cooking and things like burgers, hot dogs, etc. Maybe we'll all get some meat from free roaming animals for special occasions.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by boredumb on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:22AM (#29317462)
There is a reasonable possibility that in 50 years the absurdity will be how taken back by cocaine and it's paraphernalia is if we do go the way of more and more drug legalization. We will look like pearl clutchers or a smug living version of Reefer Madness.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by Hoasi on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:07AM (#29317945)
> Many times I think "what today will sound absurd in the future?".

NFTs? The just is still out.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by intrasight on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:39AM (#29318286)
>normalised alcohol abuse

Which the alcohol lobby is obviously fine with. I watched The Expanse this year, and it's something that stands out - the consumption of alcohol.

Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by fsloth on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:52AM (#29317773)
What social circles in which country celebrates binge drinking of alcohol? I would claim there is a huge variance in age groups and global populations of that.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by bennysomething on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:48AM (#29317161)
Though alcohol has been normal in western society for 1000s of years, cocaine not really. But yeah booze is awful for people. But I like beer and wine :(
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by tomhunters on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @09:20AM (#29318094)
That's a nice way of thinking. My mind eventually think of different things that will create different impact in our world.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by platz on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @07:19AM (#29316962)
Just pick anything anything only invented in the last 5 years. It has a high probability of dying out.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by odiroot on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:44AM (#29317678)
I really hope we're going to treat sugar consumption like that.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by millzlane on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:15AM (#29317401)
Hunger or worldwide famine comes to mind for me.
Re:Cocaine Paraphernalia Ads in the 70s by anodari on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @08:57AM (#29317829)
Car accidents.