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Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by antattack on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @07:25PM (#27442382)
Bosch started the project way before chip shortage, around 2017 [1] and opening it right on schedule. This is the second factory of this type, good foresight by Germans and EU.

[1]https://www.reuters.com/article/bosch-factory/robert-bosch-t...

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by jonplackett on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:23AM (#27445535)
Also will not help with the chip shortage anyway

> The Bosch plant will make specialist power-management chips and Application Specific Integrated Circuits (ASICs) that are designed to carry out a single task, such as triggering a car's automatic braking system.

> It will not however address shortages of products like microcontrollers which have forced auto makers to halt production and are expected by industry leaders and analysts to extend into next year.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by pjc50 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:49AM (#27446093)
Capacity is somewhat fungible, so if this enables Bosch to manufacture their ASICs in-house that frees up capacity somewhere else for other devices.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by JAlexoid on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:31PM (#27463239)
One of the things that is in shortage - ASICs for automotive industry. So it will help a little bit.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by JKCalhoun on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @09:47PM (#27443321)
Germany is playing the long game.

Congrats.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by hutzlibu on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:58AM (#27444369)
Oh yes, we like to do that.

Which is why we also need 14 years to build a new, medium sized airport in the capital.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by oblio on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:35AM (#27446352)
It's fun to point at Berlin Brandenburg and laugh, but it's not a medium sized airport.

2 runways, 3 terminals, room for expansion for 2 more terminals. Capacity for 27 million passengers per year, going up to 50 million once expanded.

Compared to the absolute largest airports in the world (around 100 million passengers per year), yes, it's "medium". But it would be in the top 10 airports in Europe and still something like top 50 in the world, over time.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by carlmr on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:55AM (#27446477)
Now we're working on restricting short distance air travel within Europe, meaning large airports like this one may become too costly to keep running, if it can't be utilized enough.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by 74d-fe6-2c6 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:01AM (#27446509)
I'd say this development would rather cause fewer small airports in Germany and hence benefit hubs like BER that are being reached by train. overall though it'll cause fewer air travellers as domestic air transport is breaking away. then again more international air travel will move from smaller German airports to BER.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by carlmr on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:04AM (#27446526)
True, that's a good point.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by oblio on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:06AM (#27446536)
Restrict how? You'll never restrict it to Eastern Europe, for example. Eastern Europe has almost no high speed rail, so if you cut off "short" flights, travel that would take 4 hours by plane (1 hour to the starting airport, 1 hour in the airport, 1 hour flight, 1 hour from the destination airport) would become 8-12-16+ hours by train for many places.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by carlmr on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:11AM (#27446560)
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/flight-rail-four-hours-...

Right now it's still only France, but German politicians are talking about adopting a similar strategy.

The French model actually aims to ban flights that have a sub 4h train connection. Meaning the Eastern European nations without high speed rail would have fewer flights affected if this becomes EU policy.

It would cut a lot of flights to neighboring countries, and domestically in Germany.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by rjzzleep on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @10:01AM (#27447914)
It's actually amusing because the airport lobbyists were responsible for cuts in train infrastructure funding in Germany. Reminds me a bit of how Germany killed it's fiber investment to accomodate for private cable TV back in the day.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by 1inuxoid on Saturday June 12, 2021 @04:32AM (#27482757)
Or nuclear power plants for the benefit of gas traders and entrepreneurs of heavily subsidised green energy technologies.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by andrewxdiamond on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:19PM (#27449707)
Interesting that this model incentivizes railroads to build more.

A railroad investor could look at existing flights and accurately project how many passengers they can expect, since flights would be blocked the second they open their carriage doors.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by borjah on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:37AM (#27446726)
Spain has also a similar policy in the works. For travels that are covered by train and are 2.5h or less, no plane travel is allowed.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by raverbashing on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:23AM (#27447079)
That's the minority of flights, even today

Quite simply, if you're under 4h train connection you're far enough to justify a flight.

BER is pretty safe on flight numbers.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by hef19898 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:03AM (#27447379)
Well, technically we just talking the new terminal. The runways were always there ad part of Berlin Schönefeld.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by 74d-fe6-2c6 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:58AM (#27446497)
the way you put it makes it sound that medium is quite apt - possibly even an exaggeration.

According to [1] and [2] it wouldn' even make the top 50.

As a German I feel insulted by the whole affair. It's ridiculous how incompetent and corrupt this project was managed.

1: https://gettocenter.com/airports/top-100-airports-in-world 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by bobthechef on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:54AM (#27446848)
As I posted in another reply, it can still function as a local airport if this project works out: https://www.businessinsider.com/first-look-new-transport-hub...
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by pistoriusp on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:36AM (#27446001)
Totally. "German efficiency" is great marketing, but it's completely false.

*edit: "completely false" isn't helpful here.

The stereotype of German efficiency is based on centuries old reputation, but not really representative of present day Germans.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-efficiency-the-roots-of-a-stere...

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by morelisp on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:42AM (#27446386)
My feeling as a foreigner in Germany is that in some ways it's its own curse. Germany does still have the economic and political structures to rise to meet the stereotype. But at the same time the myth means people in charge often assume said "efficiency" will just magically happen without anyone being responsible or putting in effort.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by sambe on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:40AM (#27446023)
I'm not sure about "completely false". The article is mostly about the history of the stereotype, and ends with a couple of examples of things that were not as efficient as they could have been. I don't think anybody is claiming perfect efficiency.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by pistoriusp on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:51AM (#27446104)
Agree, "completely false" is a stretch on my part, but stereotypes are broad and mostly unhelpful, and this was a response to that.

Maybe a better way to express it is:

The stereotype of German efficiency is based on centuries old reputation, but not really representative of present day Germans.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by JauntyHatAngle on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:48AM (#27446429)
I don't see any evidence you've provided to show present day Germans are not efficient as a tendency.

Anecdotally, from working and living in Germany, I've very much noticed that Germans are better with time management, and work shorter hours and get more done compared with my home country (Australia).

I'd be surprised to see contrary evidence, though it's certainly a possibility. But the article you linked does not appear to demonstrate much of substance in terms of present day productivity.

Stereotypes can be damaging, sure, but when discussing certain aspects of a culture they can be true and based on cultural norms. I don't think we should broadly dismiss them when used in the right context, and not in a discriminatory fashion.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by anthk on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:27AM (#27447603)
Spaniard here. Stereotypes are bullshit.

- We are not lazy.

- Not everyone in the country does siesta. We just have lunch.

- There is no Sun everywhere. The North is rainier than the UK. And the sky is as much as gray, if not more.

- There is no Mediterranean climate everywhere.

- Catholicism plummeted since Franco's death.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by JauntyHatAngle on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:29AM (#27447624)
I think you may have misunderstood my post somewhat.

But to respond directly to you, a stereotype typecasting an entire country to lazy is damaging and not particularly useful unless you want to insult someone.

However handwaving away trends in cultures as a stereotype can also result in missing important facets, e.g. Burn out in Japanese work culture.

Are Germans more "efficient"? Idk, let's look at some data and try to nut out whether it checks out.

If it is, would be nice to know what aspects make it so. Though it's usually not simple.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by pasabagi on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:02AM (#27457297)
In terms of productivity per worker, Germany does pretty well.

My guess is that because there are all sorts of limits on how much people can work (there are lots of holidays here) so the industries that tend to survive are those that are highly automated, and have high productivity per worker.

My feeling is that productivity-per-worker is essentially a political choice. Low skill, low automation labour is inherently unproductive, but it's also flexible and it doesn't require any strategic direction from the state. High skill high automation jobs are very productive, but they are brittle - if the market moves, all that skill and tooling becomes worthless.

The German (also Japanese) approach isn't all sunshine and rainbows, though. In Germany, for example, a pack of ten paracetamol costs like four euros. That's about a 100x markup from what paracetamol actually costs. This is because in Germany, pharmacies are protected from competition, to preserve the sector. The same is true of taxis, for example.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by anthk on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:10PM (#27449565)
>Are Germans more "efficient"? Idk, let's look at some data and try to nut out whether it checks out.

It's more complex than that. In Spain the "presentismo" (being in-place ,in your office, phisically in your seat) it's taken from the middle manager/boss as a religion. Thus, productiviy is halved even if we work even more than you than average.

And, yes, OFC, this was a big issue because of the Covid and remote work over the internet.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by losvedir on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:18PM (#27449689)
> Not everyone in the country does siesta. We just have lunch.

Obviously nothing is universal. But to an American visiting Spain the hours of operation there are striking! I only visited Madrid and Sevilla, but I found that restaurants and many stores were open much later than I was accustomed to (my hometown mostly shuts down around 8pm or 9pm, for example), and the fact that anything was closed around lunch was very odd! It definitely gave a fun "flavor" to my trip that was quite different from, say, Singapore.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by anthk on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:21PM (#27449744)
That's because of Franco's timezone shift: we were shifted to GMT+1 because the fascist dictator loved Germany. Odd because the Greenwich meridian crosses half of Spain in Aragon.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by AshamedCaptain on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:13PM (#27453297)
Not really. The difference between eastern Spain and southern France is already striking and they are on the same meridian and same timezone. Its not hard for me to see a shop that closes at 9pm in Spain, then move 50km north and find exactly the same brand shop closing at 6pm in France (E.g. fnac), practically with midday sun on summer.

Lately France is getting a bit more of the delay too, with shops opening at 10 and closing at 19.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by anthk on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:48PM (#27455820)
>Lately France is getting a bit more of the delay too, with shops opening at 10 and closing at 19.

Technically we should be on GMT, not GMT+1. Then we aren't that far from France.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by kaybe on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:35AM (#27447669)
I think it's informative to look at the location of a place within a timezone. Between the eastern and the western edge of a timezone you can have more than an hour of shift in daylight (in the broader zones), of course people's rhythms will be shifted.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by Bayart on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:20AM (#27447043)
From working with Germans, I have not noticed any real difference in work patterns or efficiency compared to my home country (France). I doubt there's much variance accross Europe as a whole. It seems their reputation in that respect is empty. Though I've notice cultural traits that do have some reality behind it (being sticklers for rules).
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by verst on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:46PM (#27450864)
As a German living outside of Germany for 15 years I have an interesting perspective on this:

The rule-following in a work setting is all about risk mitigation and rules tend to help with that. Similarly for following established processes. I know this is pretty annoying but at least I'd argue the status of work is transparent and the outcome reliable (even if it may take a long time because too many hypotheticals were considered). The unstructured working style of the US can certainly drive a German a bit crazy at times :)

In a social setting rules are also enforced to ensure that you don't negatively impact the personal enjoyment of others. For example, no mowing your lawn on Sundays so everyone can enjoy a quiet peaceful day. No talking loudly at your table in a restaurant so you don't bother the other diners etc

Compared to the US I find Germans and French to be fairly similar with the difference being that French are more relaxed in attitude but definitely complain even more than Germans haha

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by pistoriusp on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:13AM (#27446996)
Right, this sort of thing is difficult because it's not evidence based. It's entirely subjective and anecdotal as compared to your past experiences in Australia, or mine in my own home country.

You come from a country where trains are ALWAYS VERY LATE, Germany is efficient because the trains are just a little late.

OR

You come from a country where the trains are ALWAYS ON TIME, Germany is inefficient because the trains are just a little late.

What I do think is interesting is that people think German's are efficient. Where does that come from? That's what the article is about.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by JauntyHatAngle on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:42AM (#27447726)
To be clear, I've looked at these assumptions before as a comparison, and from the sources I read at the time, Germany did have less hours compared to Australia, by a lot.

Social studies have too many variables to strongly conclude exactly why, and I'm not coming out with great sources here (om phone), but it does appear that Germany works far less than Australia, US, Mexico etc.

https://www.instarem.com/blog/are-you-working-more-than-you-...

Some of it is likely wealth. But some of it is definitely cultural attitudes to work.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by nobodyandproud on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:00PM (#27450297)
Modern Spain has a problem of workers overworking, if I recall.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by weiliddat on Thursday June 10, 2021 @05:09AM (#27458587)
The most efficient thing in Germany is the supermarket checkout, and I don't mean it in a sarcastic/joking manner.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by pistoriusp on Friday June 11, 2021 @08:15AM (#27472252)
Actually not. German supermarkets use multiple queues for multiple cashiers. Studies have shown that a single queue feeding multiple cashiers is the most efficient method. A single queue feeding 3 cashiers is 3x faster than 3 single queues:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204770404577082...

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by weiliddat on Sunday June 13, 2021 @10:56AM (#27493156)
I meant it in a sense of the cashiers’ speed in checking items. Do you know why German supermarkets don’t use the single queue multiple cashiers system?
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by xcambar on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:50AM (#27444645)
Which also opened right on time before the pandemics, so that it feels huge since there was almost zero circulation.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by fnord123 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @03:19AM (#27445167)
Do you mean circulation as in air-flow? Or circulation as in traffic?

I don't know about German but French speakers will often use circulation for traffic because it's a false friend.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by morelisp on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:47AM (#27446418)
I suspect in this case it's a false friend - ironically one of the major problems blocking the opening of the airport was actually zero (air) circulation.

Several engineering and electronics companies, led by the German giants Siemens and Bosch, struggled to retain control over the complex fire protection system that included 3,000 fire doors, 65,000 sprinklers, thousands of smoke detectors, a labyrinth of smoke evacuation ducts, and the equivalent of 55 miles of cables.

“Our part, the detection of hot air or smoke ... is functioning,” says Thilo Resenhoeft, a Bosch spokesman. “The responsibility for the dysfunction lies with somebody else.” Siemens spokesman Oliver Santen confirms that the company was originally responsible for building the “automated fire protection facility” and “the control unit for fresh-air circulation.” Testing in 2013 “showed the need for reworking part of the system,” he says. Santen declines to attribute responsibility other than to say that Siemens is “responsible for the reconstruction of the fresh-air circulation system.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-07-23/how-berli...

(The issue was not fixed until 2019. Quite disappointed, we didn't even get a Murder Horse out of it.)

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by xcambar on Thursday June 10, 2021 @12:57AM (#27456811)
As in traffic. And yes, I'm French.

Damned, I am démasqué.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by midasuni on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:08AM (#27445431)
“Right on time”

It was originally scheduled to open in 2007

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by xcambar on Thursday June 10, 2021 @12:59AM (#27456828)
I know. That was the joke. :shrug:
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by midasuni on Thursday June 10, 2021 @03:23AM (#27457879)
I considered that but given it was being compared to the Bosch chip factory which did open on time felt it would be worth clarifying for those in other regions not familiar with the situation
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by rob74 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @03:39AM (#27445266)
if you want to create the impression that it was intentional, you can call it a "soft launch"...
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by myspy on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @03:36AM (#27445251)
Oh, I didn't know that it has finally opened.

Good foresight by Bosch.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by conjectures on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:21AM (#27446277)
14 years? Rapid. Brits have spent 14 years on planning permission for Heathrow expansion :D
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by pjmlp on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:26AM (#27444507)
Come around NRW, there are a couple of highways that are about the same age and still aren't finished. :)
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by bipson on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:18AM (#27445490)
Come around to Vorarlberg, Austria - where we talk about building a Highway in the 70ies or 80ies and never even start building it (all with official planning and studies and resident participation and environmental evaluations and public voting and discussions on the suggested variants). It has become a well known joke in the area.

AFAIK we still don't know where it will be built, but there has been some progress... EDIT: They agreed upon where! But they don't know when and holding another forum due to public outcry over the chosen path... sigh.

Meanwhile, Switzerland built the connection ~40 years ago [1]

[1] https://goo.gl/maps/xNEp622mFP73Bewy5

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by dao- on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:47AM (#27445671)
The potential upside of delaying highway construction by a few decades is that you could, in theory, reconsider whether it's still a good idea. Of course that's usually not what's going to happen, and most likely the project will be pushed through anyway when there's hardly any public support left for it, as with Berlin's infamous A100 extension cutting through the city.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by bipson on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:23AM (#27445933)
Oh, I"m all for not building highways at all and pushing the alternatives (e.g. public transport, cargo on rails).

But this is a special situation, a really small gap between the Swiss highway and the Austrian/German highway, so transit had to go through the villages and clogging up everything at the bottlenecks along the border (or in Höchst, Hard, Bregenz, Lustenau, Hohenems, Feldkirch etc.)

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by wongarsu on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:41AM (#27446032)
It looks like they have to bridge 5km/3mi? Sure, there's one bridge involved, but that's an awfully short distance to plan for 40 years.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by bipson on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:49AM (#27446435)
At the narrowest point it would be ~2km, but this variant has not been considered for years...

The variant that (at the time) is supposed to be built would be 8.6km.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by pjmlp on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:48AM (#27445689)
I guess burocracy is the same everywhere.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by eru on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:07AM (#27445817)
Singapore is pretty efficient.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by rvnx on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:14AM (#27446231)
Estonia as well, everything online, very fast turnaround, all documents available electronically for everyone to see
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by bobthechef on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:52AM (#27446836)
Oh yes, I recall the absolute silliness like glaring safety issues, doors that wouldn't fit, bad ventilation, construction.

But hey, if this pans out, Berlin can still be an okay local airport: https://www.businessinsider.com/first-look-new-transport-hub...

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by NeuroneNetwork on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @03:38AM (#27445261)
What about cost ? :D
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by eb0la on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:48AM (#27445687)
I dont' think it is as "long" game as it seems: Bosch brags about they make cars and their customer just assemble them. If they're able to send you a complete solution that includes sensors, connectivity, etc... they are doing their customer's life easier and raising the entry barrier for the competition.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by jansan on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:58AM (#27444370)
Bosch is a privately owned company, which means they can act independently of the stock market. This always helps with making long term decisions.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by Loic on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:53AM (#27444658)
Better than privately owned, they are owned by a foundation and are known to not only think long term, but also short term for their workers.

In France, some years ago, they closed a plant producing automotive parts, but they kept all the employees, retrained them and started producing solar panel components. It was pretty incredible as at the same time, French companies were just laying off brutally.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:14AM (#27445471)
It's emphasizing that employees are their primary resource, and retaining that resource is more important than anything. Contrast this with the US' approach to employees that sees them as expendable and replaceable - showing now in the crisis / memes that restaurants can't get enough staff because they don't pay enough / people aren't desperate enough.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by lb1lf on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:33AM (#27445583)
-In all fairness, though, the latter approach isn't unique to the US; Norwegian papers have run a lot of stories lately about business X or Y being up in arms about the labour shortage, amplified by COVID because of travel restrictions limiting access to cheap labour from abroad.

However the issue isn't really that they cannot find labour - it is that they cannot find labour at a cost which makes their current business model sustainable. (Mostly an issue in labour intensive, seasonal sectors relying on unskilled labour - agriculture, aquaculture, restaurants...)

Essentially, the gripe is 'If we paid our employees a decent wage, we'd be out of business.'

Sigh.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by simonh on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:44AM (#27445654)
To those migrant workers, what they're getting might well be a decent wage. Meanwhile the jobs of "real" Norwegians such as the farmers you mention and their supply chain depend on that business model too.

It's funny how depriving foreigners of their livelihood is so often pitched as being for their own good.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:48AM (#27446078)
Seasonal migrant workers in UK agricultural sector often make next to nothing and are seriously misled and exploited, to the point where I think it should be considered fraud.

We recruit folks from Romania promising them a decent wage, say $10 and hour, and they are typically naive folks straight out of school. Part of the contract is that they are provided with lodging, food, etc. Then they realise that after getting charged $50 for living in a tent and other "charges" they actually make like $10 a day.

The sceme basically provided a steady supply of serfs to pick fruit, and noone in britain would sign up for this.

Other cases are less egrigeous, but even in skilled work, the employee may realise the opportunity is not great, but depends on the job for visa and so decide to put up with it untill they can get permanent right to stay. Its not a terrible deal, but it wouldnt work for 'natives'

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by simonh on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:06AM (#27446188)
Oh I understand there are abuses, but what we need to do is crack down on those abuses. Address the actual problem. Too often they're used as an excuse to justify much broader action.

I have skin in this game because I'm married to a former migrant worker who started off over here working in restaurants and coffee shops, and have a niece who's currently here in the UK as a student. She completes her studies this summer and is taking up her 2 year work visa for graduates.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by throwaway210222 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:10AM (#27446206)
Most migrant workers, especially those from outside the EU, consider seasonal/migrant work and studying as a stepping stone to residence and later citizenship.

They all know that once they are inside the borders, its harder for the authorities to deport them.

Its basically the price to pay for a shot at first world lifestyle.

The last thing most of them want is a crackdown.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:28AM (#27447604)
"They all know that once they are inside the borders, its harder for the authorities to deport them"

Deportation doesn't come into this, that's only relevant once you've broken the law or overstayed your visa.

The game is about meeting criteria for a visa route, and doing seasonal work does not help in any way. Having a UK degree enables you to get a job here easier, but thats about it.

In UK, if you are switching from a short-term to long-term visa you have to leave the country and apply for a visa again from outside the country.

Even if you are applying from inside the country, the home office does not hesitate to reject applications for the tiniest reasons. Once that happens, some people might go to court if they have the money and ground to dispute the decision, if your lot in your home country is really bad you might stay illegally, but for the vast majority neither option is worth it and they move on.

Whether you are pro or against immigration, it's unclear why unscurpulous employer should be the ones to benefit from this arrangement

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by throwaway210222 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @10:47AM (#27448511)
>> if [you perceive] your lot in your home country is really bad you might stay illegally.

Yes, that is precisely the route.

The billions (like moi) in the third world have realised that the longer they violate the immigration laws, the better their chances of having some activist argue their right to stay.

Their is no other law/regulation that I know of where the longer you violate the law, the more rights your have.

Which is exactly why the boat arrivals to Australia dried up once the processing was moved outside the jurisdiction of Australian law.

They were on to us.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by dragonwriter on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:14PM (#27451185)
> Their is no other law/regulation that I know of where the longer you violate the law, the more rights your have.

I suggest you research “adverse possession”, and “easement by prescription”; if you view nation-states and their territory as analogous to persons and their real property, they are quite similar concepts to what you seem to view as unique.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:11PM (#27451148)
Can we please stop lumping together refugees and immigrants? This is borderline vulgar, students in uk paid 60K for a degree, noone pays that kind of money to become an illegal without rights to work or healthcare. Becoming illegal immigrant is certanly not a ticket to "first world lifestyle"
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by simonh on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:17AM (#27446249)
It very much depends on what you're cracking down on. Extortion, deceptive practices, human trafficking, modern slavery sure. Students working in coffee shops? Not so much, but these issues are often deliberately conflated.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by oblio on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:39AM (#27446377)
Yeah, I guess they've changed this recently, but a bunch of years back they were recruiting even university students.

I imagine that backfired since those are, you know, educated, motivated and the vast majority speak English, so at least a bunch of them figured out how to contact authorities.

I wouldn't be surprised if recent batches are from less educated segments.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by lb1lf on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:06AM (#27445808)
-Fair point (matter of fact, I considered including a paragraph about that) - but the situation now is that for reasons outside their control, the migrant labour is not available, and the system as is cannot handle either paying the going rate for 'normal' work to fresh hires in that sector OR find enough 'real' (for lack of a better term) Norwegians willing -or even able to- to accept work at the wage offered.

For instance, with wages being as they are, many unemployed people would get less payout working full time in the agricultural sector than they would just sitting at home receiving unemployment benefits (at slightly less than 2/3 of their former wage).

The result being, of course, that whatever labour does show up tends to be less than fully motivated, adding to the employers' woes and reluctance to hire them in the first place.

I don't mind migrant labour at all; what I do mind is the idea that when the labour pool shrinks drastically, employers still try to avoid the obvious solution to attract labour - by increasing wages, if only temporarily.

These are extraordinary times (one can but hope), and extraordinary short-term measures to counter that doesn't seem unreasonable.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by Glawen on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:04AM (#27444712)
And they were laid off because Bosch closed their solar panel business a few years later
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by hef19898 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:13AM (#27444766)
Doesn't change the fact they tried. More then most other companies usually do.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by mojuba on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @03:01AM (#27445071)
Bosch is NOT strictly a privately owned company. It's a so called steward company majority owned by a non-profit trust so you could say they are nobody's. Profits never leave the company and that's why they can plan long-term and are generally pretty stable and resilient.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by namdnay on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:13AM (#27444448)
Amazon has taken pretty long term decisions, despite being public

I think it’s just a question of leadership

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by _ph_ on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:04AM (#27444710)
While Amazon is technically a public company, more than 50 % of shares are owned by the founder and consequently the control isn't split across a larger group of people.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by eru on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:09AM (#27445835)
Where do you got your 'more than 50%' from?

The Internet says Jeff Bezos has a bit more than 10%.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by _ph_ on Thursday June 10, 2021 @07:45AM (#27459538)
That is a good question. If I think about it, I have no idea :). Somehow I got the impression that Bezos as the founder still holds a controlling amount of shares, but if he owned 50% of all Amazon shares, he would be the richest person by a large margin. Anyway, it seems that Bezos basically did not have anyone to answer to while leading Amazon - amazon reportet losses for many years for the sake of growth. That means he had a free hand to implement strategies, which are long term profitable. And I attribute the success of Amazon to no small amount to this.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by eru on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:19PM (#27463107)
Well, despite reporting losses, the stock kept climbing up. So the other shareholders were apparently happy.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by jansan on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @03:57AM (#27445381)
20 years is not very long term. Kepp in mind that Bosch was founded in 1886. If Amazon keeps up like this for the next one hundred years, I will fully agree with you.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by lb1lf on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:37AM (#27445603)
-But management takes their cues from stockholders, and it would be a very hard sell indeed to convince stockholders that a decision resulting in lower profit in the short term but improve it long term should be made.

Hence companies which are either not publicly traded (like Bosch) or is majority owned by someone or other (like Amazon) is much more likely to be able to make long term decisions - as they are not always geared towards getting the most impressive earnings during the current quarter to satisfy stockholders.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by sonium on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:33AM (#27445585)
I always feel a bit puzzled when one thing is generalized to a the behavior of a Country .

It probably come down to the decision of one guy at Bosch who ultimately made the decision to go ahead with this, and this sounds like it was the democratic decision of an entire population of a country - who mostly don’t care what Bosch is up to.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by User23 on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @09:58PM (#27443379)
Swabians have been playing the long game for centuries.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by AceJohnny2 on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @07:42PM (#27442501)
> good foresight

I'd call it luck.

I doubt that in the planning stages they could anticipate the auto industry order-then-Pandemic-cancel-then-order-again wave that messed up the logistics of the semiconductor industry.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by ksec on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @10:22PM (#27443538)
The old 40 / 28nm Fab capacity had been in very tight supply for years even before the pandemic hit. This whole semiconductor shortage only happens to caught on by Mainstream Media now as they have a new direction to blame ( TSMC ) along with politics of China.

And chip being important to cars has been known for a long time with stories going back to 2013 within the industry. So you can at least infer that Bosch knew this for a long time. This is their second Fab and it was planned in 2017 and confirmed in 2018.

It is like TSMC, all of a sudden everyone talks about it. But in pre-2015 hardly anyone knew them or heard of it. Those that heard of it only thought they Fab chips for Nidia. It was Apple that bring them to the forefront.

Sometimes I just think mainstream media is such an unreliable source of information I am wondering if there are any point reading them at all other than to gather the flow of current society sentiment.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by CrazyPyroLinux on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @11:10PM (#27443813)
> Sometimes I just think mainstream media is such an unreliable source of information I am wondering if there are any point reading them at all

Bingo. I forget the name for this law/effect, but at some point everyone runs across a story in the mainstream news about which you happen to be more knowledgeable than the author/reporter/"expert guest" and the veil is lifted for a moment and you think "wow they really don't have any idea what they're talking about!" But then they go on to trust the opinion of these same outlets on economics or foreign policy, etc.

> other than to gather the flow of current society sentiment.

Even this I wouldn't trust. Perhaps if you treat it loosely as "the zeitgeist of manufactured consent" or "what They want you to think is the current society sentiment"

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by lasagnaphil on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @11:40PM (#27443972)
The name you’re looking for is the Gell-Mann anmesia effect.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by kalium-xyz on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:54AM (#27444667)
Sadly finding good sources is very hard to impossible.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by gameswithgo on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @11:53PM (#27444039)
What is the mainstream media today? When did they blame TSMC?

I don't know if the media I consume is "mainstream media" but I haven't seen anyone blame TSMC.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by imtringued on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:24AM (#27444496)
Most of them blamed car manufacturers on improper implementations of JIT manufacturing. Toyota is fine because it has a stockpile of critical parts like semiconductors.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by acjohnson55 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:40AM (#27444584)
From what I've read in the "mainstream media", TSMC is lauded for playing the king game with their foundry model, and pretty much everyone looks shitty for allowing themselves to become dependent on a single company on a seismically active, geopolitically threatened island.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by ineedasername on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @09:26PM (#27443193)
Not really luck, most of the western world realizes that having most of the world's chip capacity reside within the zone of control of a repressive regime with incompatible political and humanitarian values is not a good long term scenario. They have planned accordingly.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by sct202 on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @10:46PM (#27443669)
Times can change quickly and unpredictably. It was not too long ago that Dresden, where this plant is located, was under the oppressive East German regime.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by flohofwoe on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:04AM (#27445411)
Important to note though that Dresden was already the semiconductor "hotspot" of East Germany (along with Carl Zeiss in Jena which produced the manufacturing equipment).

AMD also had a fab until around 2008 in Dresden.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by LargoLasskhyfv on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:46AM (#27446412)
The fab is still there. Just not AMDs anymore, but Global Foundries instead.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by developer93 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:09AM (#27444426)
Dunno I wouldn't call 32 years all that recent either
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by lb1lf on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:43AM (#27445639)
Reporter: "What do you think the long-term consequences of the French Revolution will be?"

Zhou Enlai: "I believe it is too early to tell."

(This quote, while authentic, is too good to be true - the quote harks from 1972, and in context it is evident they are discussing the 1968 student unrest, not the 1789 revolution. Still...)

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by bobthechef on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:21AM (#27447058)
Indeed, takes a while for these things to unfold. For example, what we're seeing today is the result of the unfolding of the liberal program initiated centuries earlier. However, not only is taking time to unfold different from predictability, but specific predictions are not the same as general predictions.

It isn't always impossible to make good general predictions. For example, some papal encyclicals have predicted with spot on accuracy the general character of how things will develop long before they did if certain things aren't sorted out. These sorts of predictions, in part, benefit from concerning the unfolding of philosophical (and theological) beliefs, beliefs which contains within themselves their own logical entailments. So these encyclicals weren't predicting particularities like "what will be the stock price of Amazon in 2030" or "who will win the presidency in 2030 and will this president like ham", but rather the general prevailing conditions, attitudes, etc. characterizing future generations and the resulting social order, for example.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by goodcanadian on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:38AM (#27445609)
As my grandmother once said (sometime around her 85th birthday), "You know, in school, in history class, 100 years seems like a long time. It's not really."
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by bobthechef on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:00AM (#27446901)
As the adage goes, the Church thinks in centuries. Who remembers the Arian crisis today? Things seem bad now? Wait a century or two.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by emodendroket on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @11:05PM (#27443783)
Hm, have they though. It seems like they're awfully reliant on TSMC still. And at least some of our planners probably like the tripwire aspect of it because it bolsters Taiwan's geopolitical importance.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by gnu8 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:24AM (#27444206)
1) China rattles the sabre until everyone is uncomfortable with the world depending on TSMC, increasing economic uncertainty

2) Other countries build chip foundries to capitalize on the uncertainty

3) The risk of China provoking world war by reclaiming control over Taiwan reduces to an acceptable level, and they take over

4) No one cares because the supply of iPhones and Alexas is not disrupted

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by ineedasername on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @11:58AM (#27449417)
I don't doubt they will see that as a sort of consolation prize, but world discomfort isn't just with chip fabs. I don't think China would deliberately allow this course of action only for Taiwan. That's not much to get in exchange for being the power of being world's industrial bottle neck.

My guess is that they see this sort of diversification from reliance on China as inevitable. They resist it of course (see 5G equipment in Europe) but their investments throughout the rest of the world paint a picture of supporting developing nations economically to the point that as they grow & prosper, they grow into client states of China.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by tibbydudeza on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:05AM (#27444721)
4D Chess moves.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by ineedasername on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @11:52AM (#27449342)
Yes, they have: TSMC is expanding fabs to outside of China's geographic sphere of influence. Even just having one coming into the US should be enough for European China hawks to feel they have a little breathing room, but from that perspective it also won't be enough. As a result, Europe is in fact working right now with TSMC & Samsung to discuss options for advanced fabs.

This actually presents a bit of peril though. China is not going to be thrilled that its industrial influence is on the decline, and the question is "How will they respond?"

We already know part of the response: We can see it play out in the contentious situation regarding adoption of 5G equipment in Europe. There is also the fact that China is investing enormous sums of money in foreign ventures and areas of the developing world, e.g., parts of Africa. These areas may effectively become client states to China.

It is, in some ways, a very interesting response to the failed methods employed by the Soviet Union. There, client states were obtained & held largely through military means. That was done either with the threat of force to client states to keep in line, or military support for regimes or regime change, for example North Vietnam.

Especially having some experience with those endeavors, China has moved on to non-military methods-- economic development. That is probably preferable to the threat massive global conflict, or even just lots of smaller ones, but if you worry about China expanding their values throughout the world, in being more effective it is also more worrying.

Probably about the best thing we can do is the path we have started on: diversification from reliance on China, and our own support in equal or greater measures of the developing world.

I should be clear though: when I talk of expanding China's values as a negative, I always mean that in the political sense of the repressive Chinese government, not the people themselves.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by bakuninsbart on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @03:47PM (#27452231)
As a German, I think a European policy analogue to what we did under Brandt and following would be optimal. Reliance usually isn't one-sided, China needs us as much as we need them. On strategic issues, we should certainly strive for self-sufficiency, but it simply isn't smart for us to "join a camp".

In contrast to smaller nations, the EU as a whole is too large to ignore even if we aren't following the line of the cold war superpowers. We can do our own thing and cooperate where it suits us.

On another note, your example of Vietnam is pretty ridiculous, as the situation was the other way around - the US invaded and committed genocide in what was originally a one-sided civil war, in the name of "holding the red wave".

Vietnam wasn't a shining example of human rights, but US policy in this case was abysmal and led to the death of millions of people. And the fact that the US stil does not not accept that they committed a genocide speaks volumes about the moral integrity defenders of the Trans-Atlantic alliance like to bring up.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by hulitu on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:52AM (#27445014)
> Hm, have they though. It seems like they're awfully reliant on TSMC still.

Well just for your information, they are not. The so called chip shortage is because a Renesas factory which produces microcontrollers burned down. To put this into perspective is like Intel using one of his fabs: you have the motherboard but no processor. Usually changing a component is no big deal but in this case is like a complete redesign.

So i do not see any link here between Bosch and TSMC.( except that they both make "chips").

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by makapuf on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:00AM (#27447359)
Do you mean specifically about them or for all microcontroller? STmicro are awfully hard to come by currently.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by antattack on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @07:53PM (#27442596)
Deterioration of US-China (and US - Europe too) relations might have contributed to to the decision.

Also, at that time it was obvious that power electronics was going to be in high demand, especially of SiC type.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by igalic on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @07:56PM (#27442612)
It has nothing to do with the pandemic, but the strategy and investment in reducing reliance on external (to the EU, and Germany in particular) suppliers is not luck.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by ineedasername on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @09:59PM (#27443385)
Absolutely. Even with the US, as much as Europe & the US are more aligned than not on geopolitical issues, the last 4-5 years have shown that is not guaranteed to continue indefinitely.

And in terms of the fragility of the world's industrial and economic engines, perhaps this is a realization that globalization has gone too far and the pendulum needs to swing more towards slightly higher self-sufficiency. Not even for some philosophy of anti-globalism, but merely because things are too brittle as they are now.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by _ph_ on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:09AM (#27444746)
The pandemic they couldn't have forseen of course, but it is good management to recognize that having their own production capacity makes them more independant from suppliers. "Modern management" far too often tries to optimize short term cost advantages and completely ignores long term considerations. Which comes of course from public companies reporting quarter numbers, as if those were an indicator how the company works. On the other side, there are decisions, like building your own fab, which increase costs short term, but long term are a huge benefit to the company.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by lstoll on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @07:56PM (#27442611)
you don't have to predict that exact scenario to know that domestic semiconductor manufacturing is a good idea.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by float4 on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @07:56PM (#27442609)
It's not about the pandemic or luck. It has to do with strategy, more independence etc.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by puchatek on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:32AM (#27445581)
The foresight is more about EVs conquering the car market and what it would take to be part of that value chain
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by toomanybeersies on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @09:12PM (#27443097)
No, but they likely realised the fragility of the semiconductor supply chain, and anticipated that a whole range of global events could cause logistical problems and shortages.