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Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by hutzlibu on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:58AM (#27444369)
Oh yes, we like to do that.

Which is why we also need 14 years to build a new, medium sized airport in the capital.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by oblio on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:35AM (#27446352)
It's fun to point at Berlin Brandenburg and laugh, but it's not a medium sized airport.

2 runways, 3 terminals, room for expansion for 2 more terminals. Capacity for 27 million passengers per year, going up to 50 million once expanded.

Compared to the absolute largest airports in the world (around 100 million passengers per year), yes, it's "medium". But it would be in the top 10 airports in Europe and still something like top 50 in the world, over time.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by carlmr on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:55AM (#27446477)
Now we're working on restricting short distance air travel within Europe, meaning large airports like this one may become too costly to keep running, if it can't be utilized enough.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by 74d-fe6-2c6 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:01AM (#27446509)
I'd say this development would rather cause fewer small airports in Germany and hence benefit hubs like BER that are being reached by train. overall though it'll cause fewer air travellers as domestic air transport is breaking away. then again more international air travel will move from smaller German airports to BER.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by carlmr on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:04AM (#27446526)
True, that's a good point.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by oblio on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:06AM (#27446536)
Restrict how? You'll never restrict it to Eastern Europe, for example. Eastern Europe has almost no high speed rail, so if you cut off "short" flights, travel that would take 4 hours by plane (1 hour to the starting airport, 1 hour in the airport, 1 hour flight, 1 hour from the destination airport) would become 8-12-16+ hours by train for many places.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by carlmr on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:11AM (#27446560)
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/flight-rail-four-hours-...

Right now it's still only France, but German politicians are talking about adopting a similar strategy.

The French model actually aims to ban flights that have a sub 4h train connection. Meaning the Eastern European nations without high speed rail would have fewer flights affected if this becomes EU policy.

It would cut a lot of flights to neighboring countries, and domestically in Germany.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by rjzzleep on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @10:01AM (#27447914)
It's actually amusing because the airport lobbyists were responsible for cuts in train infrastructure funding in Germany. Reminds me a bit of how Germany killed it's fiber investment to accomodate for private cable TV back in the day.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by 1inuxoid on Saturday June 12, 2021 @04:32AM (#27482757)
Or nuclear power plants for the benefit of gas traders and entrepreneurs of heavily subsidised green energy technologies.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by andrewxdiamond on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:19PM (#27449707)
Interesting that this model incentivizes railroads to build more.

A railroad investor could look at existing flights and accurately project how many passengers they can expect, since flights would be blocked the second they open their carriage doors.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by borjah on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:37AM (#27446726)
Spain has also a similar policy in the works. For travels that are covered by train and are 2.5h or less, no plane travel is allowed.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by raverbashing on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:23AM (#27447079)
That's the minority of flights, even today

Quite simply, if you're under 4h train connection you're far enough to justify a flight.

BER is pretty safe on flight numbers.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by hef19898 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:03AM (#27447379)
Well, technically we just talking the new terminal. The runways were always there ad part of Berlin Schönefeld.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by 74d-fe6-2c6 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:58AM (#27446497)
the way you put it makes it sound that medium is quite apt - possibly even an exaggeration.

According to [1] and [2] it wouldn' even make the top 50.

As a German I feel insulted by the whole affair. It's ridiculous how incompetent and corrupt this project was managed.

1: https://gettocenter.com/airports/top-100-airports-in-world 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by bobthechef on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:54AM (#27446848)
As I posted in another reply, it can still function as a local airport if this project works out: https://www.businessinsider.com/first-look-new-transport-hub...
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by pistoriusp on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:36AM (#27446001)
Totally. "German efficiency" is great marketing, but it's completely false.

*edit: "completely false" isn't helpful here.

The stereotype of German efficiency is based on centuries old reputation, but not really representative of present day Germans.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-efficiency-the-roots-of-a-stere...

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by morelisp on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:42AM (#27446386)
My feeling as a foreigner in Germany is that in some ways it's its own curse. Germany does still have the economic and political structures to rise to meet the stereotype. But at the same time the myth means people in charge often assume said "efficiency" will just magically happen without anyone being responsible or putting in effort.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by sambe on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:40AM (#27446023)
I'm not sure about "completely false". The article is mostly about the history of the stereotype, and ends with a couple of examples of things that were not as efficient as they could have been. I don't think anybody is claiming perfect efficiency.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by pistoriusp on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:51AM (#27446104)
Agree, "completely false" is a stretch on my part, but stereotypes are broad and mostly unhelpful, and this was a response to that.

Maybe a better way to express it is:

The stereotype of German efficiency is based on centuries old reputation, but not really representative of present day Germans.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by JauntyHatAngle on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:48AM (#27446429)
I don't see any evidence you've provided to show present day Germans are not efficient as a tendency.

Anecdotally, from working and living in Germany, I've very much noticed that Germans are better with time management, and work shorter hours and get more done compared with my home country (Australia).

I'd be surprised to see contrary evidence, though it's certainly a possibility. But the article you linked does not appear to demonstrate much of substance in terms of present day productivity.

Stereotypes can be damaging, sure, but when discussing certain aspects of a culture they can be true and based on cultural norms. I don't think we should broadly dismiss them when used in the right context, and not in a discriminatory fashion.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by anthk on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:27AM (#27447603)
Spaniard here. Stereotypes are bullshit.

- We are not lazy.

- Not everyone in the country does siesta. We just have lunch.

- There is no Sun everywhere. The North is rainier than the UK. And the sky is as much as gray, if not more.

- There is no Mediterranean climate everywhere.

- Catholicism plummeted since Franco's death.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by JauntyHatAngle on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:29AM (#27447624)
I think you may have misunderstood my post somewhat.

But to respond directly to you, a stereotype typecasting an entire country to lazy is damaging and not particularly useful unless you want to insult someone.

However handwaving away trends in cultures as a stereotype can also result in missing important facets, e.g. Burn out in Japanese work culture.

Are Germans more "efficient"? Idk, let's look at some data and try to nut out whether it checks out.

If it is, would be nice to know what aspects make it so. Though it's usually not simple.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by pasabagi on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:02AM (#27457297)
In terms of productivity per worker, Germany does pretty well.

My guess is that because there are all sorts of limits on how much people can work (there are lots of holidays here) so the industries that tend to survive are those that are highly automated, and have high productivity per worker.

My feeling is that productivity-per-worker is essentially a political choice. Low skill, low automation labour is inherently unproductive, but it's also flexible and it doesn't require any strategic direction from the state. High skill high automation jobs are very productive, but they are brittle - if the market moves, all that skill and tooling becomes worthless.

The German (also Japanese) approach isn't all sunshine and rainbows, though. In Germany, for example, a pack of ten paracetamol costs like four euros. That's about a 100x markup from what paracetamol actually costs. This is because in Germany, pharmacies are protected from competition, to preserve the sector. The same is true of taxis, for example.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by anthk on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:10PM (#27449565)
>Are Germans more "efficient"? Idk, let's look at some data and try to nut out whether it checks out.

It's more complex than that. In Spain the "presentismo" (being in-place ,in your office, phisically in your seat) it's taken from the middle manager/boss as a religion. Thus, productiviy is halved even if we work even more than you than average.

And, yes, OFC, this was a big issue because of the Covid and remote work over the internet.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by losvedir on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:18PM (#27449689)
> Not everyone in the country does siesta. We just have lunch.

Obviously nothing is universal. But to an American visiting Spain the hours of operation there are striking! I only visited Madrid and Sevilla, but I found that restaurants and many stores were open much later than I was accustomed to (my hometown mostly shuts down around 8pm or 9pm, for example), and the fact that anything was closed around lunch was very odd! It definitely gave a fun "flavor" to my trip that was quite different from, say, Singapore.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by anthk on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:21PM (#27449744)
That's because of Franco's timezone shift: we were shifted to GMT+1 because the fascist dictator loved Germany. Odd because the Greenwich meridian crosses half of Spain in Aragon.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by AshamedCaptain on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:13PM (#27453297)
Not really. The difference between eastern Spain and southern France is already striking and they are on the same meridian and same timezone. Its not hard for me to see a shop that closes at 9pm in Spain, then move 50km north and find exactly the same brand shop closing at 6pm in France (E.g. fnac), practically with midday sun on summer.

Lately France is getting a bit more of the delay too, with shops opening at 10 and closing at 19.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by anthk on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:48PM (#27455820)
>Lately France is getting a bit more of the delay too, with shops opening at 10 and closing at 19.

Technically we should be on GMT, not GMT+1. Then we aren't that far from France.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by kaybe on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:35AM (#27447669)
I think it's informative to look at the location of a place within a timezone. Between the eastern and the western edge of a timezone you can have more than an hour of shift in daylight (in the broader zones), of course people's rhythms will be shifted.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by Bayart on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:20AM (#27447043)
From working with Germans, I have not noticed any real difference in work patterns or efficiency compared to my home country (France). I doubt there's much variance accross Europe as a whole. It seems their reputation in that respect is empty. Though I've notice cultural traits that do have some reality behind it (being sticklers for rules).
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by verst on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:46PM (#27450864)
As a German living outside of Germany for 15 years I have an interesting perspective on this:

The rule-following in a work setting is all about risk mitigation and rules tend to help with that. Similarly for following established processes. I know this is pretty annoying but at least I'd argue the status of work is transparent and the outcome reliable (even if it may take a long time because too many hypotheticals were considered). The unstructured working style of the US can certainly drive a German a bit crazy at times :)

In a social setting rules are also enforced to ensure that you don't negatively impact the personal enjoyment of others. For example, no mowing your lawn on Sundays so everyone can enjoy a quiet peaceful day. No talking loudly at your table in a restaurant so you don't bother the other diners etc

Compared to the US I find Germans and French to be fairly similar with the difference being that French are more relaxed in attitude but definitely complain even more than Germans haha

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by pistoriusp on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @08:13AM (#27446996)
Right, this sort of thing is difficult because it's not evidence based. It's entirely subjective and anecdotal as compared to your past experiences in Australia, or mine in my own home country.

You come from a country where trains are ALWAYS VERY LATE, Germany is efficient because the trains are just a little late.

OR

You come from a country where the trains are ALWAYS ON TIME, Germany is inefficient because the trains are just a little late.

What I do think is interesting is that people think German's are efficient. Where does that come from? That's what the article is about.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by JauntyHatAngle on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @09:42AM (#27447726)
To be clear, I've looked at these assumptions before as a comparison, and from the sources I read at the time, Germany did have less hours compared to Australia, by a lot.

Social studies have too many variables to strongly conclude exactly why, and I'm not coming out with great sources here (om phone), but it does appear that Germany works far less than Australia, US, Mexico etc.

https://www.instarem.com/blog/are-you-working-more-than-you-...

Some of it is likely wealth. But some of it is definitely cultural attitudes to work.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by nobodyandproud on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:00PM (#27450297)
Modern Spain has a problem of workers overworking, if I recall.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by weiliddat on Thursday June 10, 2021 @05:09AM (#27458587)
The most efficient thing in Germany is the supermarket checkout, and I don't mean it in a sarcastic/joking manner.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by pistoriusp on Friday June 11, 2021 @08:15AM (#27472252)
Actually not. German supermarkets use multiple queues for multiple cashiers. Studies have shown that a single queue feeding multiple cashiers is the most efficient method. A single queue feeding 3 cashiers is 3x faster than 3 single queues:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204770404577082...

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by weiliddat on Sunday June 13, 2021 @10:56AM (#27493156)
I meant it in a sense of the cashiers’ speed in checking items. Do you know why German supermarkets don’t use the single queue multiple cashiers system?
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by xcambar on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:50AM (#27444645)
Which also opened right on time before the pandemics, so that it feels huge since there was almost zero circulation.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by fnord123 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @03:19AM (#27445167)
Do you mean circulation as in air-flow? Or circulation as in traffic?

I don't know about German but French speakers will often use circulation for traffic because it's a false friend.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by morelisp on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:47AM (#27446418)
I suspect in this case it's a false friend - ironically one of the major problems blocking the opening of the airport was actually zero (air) circulation.

Several engineering and electronics companies, led by the German giants Siemens and Bosch, struggled to retain control over the complex fire protection system that included 3,000 fire doors, 65,000 sprinklers, thousands of smoke detectors, a labyrinth of smoke evacuation ducts, and the equivalent of 55 miles of cables.

“Our part, the detection of hot air or smoke ... is functioning,” says Thilo Resenhoeft, a Bosch spokesman. “The responsibility for the dysfunction lies with somebody else.” Siemens spokesman Oliver Santen confirms that the company was originally responsible for building the “automated fire protection facility” and “the control unit for fresh-air circulation.” Testing in 2013 “showed the need for reworking part of the system,” he says. Santen declines to attribute responsibility other than to say that Siemens is “responsible for the reconstruction of the fresh-air circulation system.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-07-23/how-berli...

(The issue was not fixed until 2019. Quite disappointed, we didn't even get a Murder Horse out of it.)

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by xcambar on Thursday June 10, 2021 @12:57AM (#27456811)
As in traffic. And yes, I'm French.

Damned, I am démasqué.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by midasuni on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:08AM (#27445431)
“Right on time”

It was originally scheduled to open in 2007

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by xcambar on Thursday June 10, 2021 @12:59AM (#27456828)
I know. That was the joke. :shrug:
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by midasuni on Thursday June 10, 2021 @03:23AM (#27457879)
I considered that but given it was being compared to the Bosch chip factory which did open on time felt it would be worth clarifying for those in other regions not familiar with the situation
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by rob74 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @03:39AM (#27445266)
if you want to create the impression that it was intentional, you can call it a "soft launch"...
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by myspy on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @03:36AM (#27445251)
Oh, I didn't know that it has finally opened.

Good foresight by Bosch.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by conjectures on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:21AM (#27446277)
14 years? Rapid. Brits have spent 14 years on planning permission for Heathrow expansion :D
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by pjmlp on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:26AM (#27444507)
Come around NRW, there are a couple of highways that are about the same age and still aren't finished. :)
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by bipson on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:18AM (#27445490)
Come around to Vorarlberg, Austria - where we talk about building a Highway in the 70ies or 80ies and never even start building it (all with official planning and studies and resident participation and environmental evaluations and public voting and discussions on the suggested variants). It has become a well known joke in the area.

AFAIK we still don't know where it will be built, but there has been some progress... EDIT: They agreed upon where! But they don't know when and holding another forum due to public outcry over the chosen path... sigh.

Meanwhile, Switzerland built the connection ~40 years ago [1]

[1] https://goo.gl/maps/xNEp622mFP73Bewy5

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by dao- on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:47AM (#27445671)
The potential upside of delaying highway construction by a few decades is that you could, in theory, reconsider whether it's still a good idea. Of course that's usually not what's going to happen, and most likely the project will be pushed through anyway when there's hardly any public support left for it, as with Berlin's infamous A100 extension cutting through the city.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by bipson on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:23AM (#27445933)
Oh, I"m all for not building highways at all and pushing the alternatives (e.g. public transport, cargo on rails).

But this is a special situation, a really small gap between the Swiss highway and the Austrian/German highway, so transit had to go through the villages and clogging up everything at the bottlenecks along the border (or in Höchst, Hard, Bregenz, Lustenau, Hohenems, Feldkirch etc.)

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by wongarsu on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:41AM (#27446032)
It looks like they have to bridge 5km/3mi? Sure, there's one bridge involved, but that's an awfully short distance to plan for 40 years.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by bipson on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:49AM (#27446435)
At the narrowest point it would be ~2km, but this variant has not been considered for years...

The variant that (at the time) is supposed to be built would be 8.6km.

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by pjmlp on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:48AM (#27445689)
I guess burocracy is the same everywhere.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by eru on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:07AM (#27445817)
Singapore is pretty efficient.
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by rvnx on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:14AM (#27446231)
Estonia as well, everything online, very fast turnaround, all documents available electronically for everyone to see
Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by bobthechef on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @07:52AM (#27446836)
Oh yes, I recall the absolute silliness like glaring safety issues, doors that wouldn't fit, bad ventilation, construction.

But hey, if this pans out, Berlin can still be an okay local airport: https://www.businessinsider.com/first-look-new-transport-hub...

Re:Bosch opens German chip plant by NeuroneNetwork on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @03:38AM (#27445261)
What about cost ? :D