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Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by derbOac on Thursday April 29, 2021 @02:53PM (#26984975)
So my wife and I are vegetarian and I love certain vegan cheese, the naturally cultured ones where you essentially have a plant product that is cultured with cheese bacteria.

My experience with this stuff is similar to a lot of things in vegetarian diet, which is that the problems come about when you start trying to create imitations of animal products.

I do not want to suggest that people "just don't like vegan cheese because they're expecting animal milk cheese" but I do suspect that if people would stop thinking of certain vegan cheeses as substitutes for animal cheeses, they would feel really differently on average.

I also don't want to suggest substitutes don't work to a certain extent in certain cases. Impossible burgers, for example, have really pushed a lot of limits in that regard. But I do think that a lot of times trying to imitate just fails miserably.

I tend think of naturally cultured cashew cheese as pretty good. I just think of it as a cultured nut butter, which it is. I still love animal milk cheese, but I wouldn't just expect to substitute cashew butter for chevre, for example, nor would I expect to substitute cashew cheese for either one.

Maybe the article is poorly framed in that regard. I guess I just see it as a fool's errand to try to approach vegan cheeses as imitations. Why can't it just be treated as a food in itself?

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by thaumasiotes on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:28PM (#26987583)
> I do not want to suggest that people "just don't like vegan cheese because they're expecting animal milk cheese" but I do suspect that if people would stop thinking of certain vegan cheeses as substitutes for animal cheeses, they would feel really differently on average.

Naming the product "vegan cheese" isn't doing it any favors in this regard.

A Chinese instructor told me once that tofu was the Chinese equivalent of Western cheese. ("And in as many varieties!") Nutritionally that seems basically correct. But you're not going to sell much tofu as a cheese substitute, or cheese as a tofu substitute.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by Kalium on Thursday April 29, 2021 @09:05PM (#26988785)
I suggest looking up the process for making mozzarella at home. Then then process for making tofu at home. Your instructor was accurate on more than a purely nutritional level.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by thaumasiotes on Thursday April 29, 2021 @09:54PM (#26989071)
One is protein congealed from milk and one is protein congealed from soybeans. This is pretty much what I meant by "nutritionally equivalent". (Though cheese contains a lot more fat than tofu does.)
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by hnick on Thursday April 29, 2021 @09:35PM (#26988968)
Is there a tofu equivalent of something like parmesan or brie? I can see how tofu relates to mozzarella or ricotta and I've reached that conclusion myself before, but there is a wide variety of cheeses.

Apparently vegan-cheese varieties of those exist, but I'm curious if anyone took tofu there.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by alisonatwork on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:12PM (#26989177)
There are several varieties of stinky tofu[0] that feature both a hard rind and soft center like brie.

Some varieties of 豆腐乳 (Wikipedia translates this as fermented bean curd[1]) have strong flavor and creamy texture like blue cheese.

I'm not sure there's anything quite as hard as parmesan (I assume you mean Parmigiano-Reggiano), but there are several smoked tofu varieties that taste similar to smoked gouda.

Sadly in the west most shops only sell silky tofu and firm tofu, which are perhaps the most culinarily flexible, but they are far from the most texturally interesting or flavorful varieties.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stinky_tofu

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermented_bean_curd

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by hnick on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:49PM (#26989407)
Yes Parmigiano-Reggiano. Parmesan is just the generic name for places where we care about DOP qualifications I guess.

I do have a jar of red Chinese fermented bean curd in my fridge, but have only mixed it into sauces per recipes. I should probably try it by itself.

Smoked tofu sounds really interesting.

Indonesians have tempeh which is a bit like haloumi I guess when pan fried, so that's another one.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by trainsplanes on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:28PM (#26989276)
Yeah, furu is shockingly close to cheese in flavor. It's very pungent and salty, so you can't just just chop off a huge slice and eat it like you would cheese, but you could probably blend it with creamier tofu/soy milk to make something similar to normal cheese.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by thaumasiotes on Friday April 30, 2021 @02:01PM (#26997000)
> It's very pungent and salty, so you can't just just chop off a huge slice and eat it like you would cheese

You can do this with feta, which is soaked in brine. How salty is furu?

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by thaumasiotes on Thursday April 29, 2021 @09:40PM (#26988995)
The instructor claimed that there are a wide variety of textures and flavors of tofu, including soft and hard kinds. I cannot personally attest to this.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by jdavis703 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @09:54PM (#26989073)
Indeed there are a variety. Most supermarket chains these days have a couple different types of tofu to choose from.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by js2 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:04PM (#26985154)
I tend to agree with this. I'm not a vegetarian, but if I were, I'd wouldn't eat imitation animal products anymore than I'd drink non-alcoholic beer.

I'm happy to eat vegetarian food. It stands on its own as delicious. One of the best "burgers" I've ever had was made with black beans and wasn't trying to imitate meat. (It was at The Vortex in Atlanta years ago.)

Imitation products that I've tried have always just left me wanting the real thing. Soy can be delicious prepared as soy and not trying to make it pretend to be meat. Tofurky. Yuck.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by fader on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:30PM (#26986316)
I hear this sort of thing a lot but don't quite understand it.

I've been a vegetarian for eight years, but I eat meat substitute products. I have ethical issues with eating meat and I feel considerably better physically when I don't eat meat, but that doesn't mean that meat doesn't taste good.

I'm quite happy to be able to pop some Quorn mycoprotein into a casserole and eat comfort foods of my childhood without having to kill an animal to do it.

(I have to agree about Tofurky though. I'll generally go hungry voluntarily if that's the vegetarian option.)

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by gbrown on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:29PM (#26988133)
I’ll chime in as a long time vegetarian and former meat eater. The more realistic an imitation meat product is, the more it creeps me out. I lost the taste for meat, and I’m no longer used to the texture, and I find it disgusting.

Imagine my disappointment when all the restaurants in my area replaced their excellent vegetable burgers with things like Beyond and Impossible. To each their own, but it’s not just a rational issue of “is this an animal”, but also a subjective question of taste.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by mywittyname on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:14PM (#26986810)
It comes down to personal preference. I'm with the GP comment for the exact reasons: I don't like vegan/vegetarian products that imitate animal products because they never actually hit the mark.

This attitude isn't limited to animal products either, almost every ersatz product is worse than what it is trying to imitate. People generally don't like chicory & roasted rye in place of coffee, or teas made from roasted barley & catnip. Some people do, but it's not the norm.

However, if you make a product which is intended to stand on its own, rather than imitate something else, then you can often create something pretty good. Think Nutella, which was designed to stretch cocoa, not replace it.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by kingofpandora on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:43PM (#26989372)
As someone who had been a vegetarian since birth, I almost never like foods that attempt to imitate meat simply because they don't usually taste better good. I'm not trying to replace something I used to eat, and I'm also not disgusted by meat so if like to think this is an unbiased opinion...
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by jrmg on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:51PM (#26988700)
I’d bet that anyone decrying imitation meat - or, at least, anyone who generally likes real meat decrying imitation meat - hasn’t had good imitation meat.

If you’ve never tried an Impossible burger, it’s an order of magnitude better than anything that came before. It’s a good burger. It does taste and feel like meat. It doesn’t taste like something that’s trying to be something it’s not.

Quorn I’d also put in the “doesn’t taste like something that’s trying to be something it’s not” category. It’s been around for a long time, but has been curiously unsuccessful in the US. Amazon Fresh sells it. The ground variety makes a good chili. The nuggets are a reasonable facsimile of white meat chicken nuggets.

Quorn’s no Impossible burger though. What Impossible has accomplished really is astounding.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by dukeyukey on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:25PM (#26988110)
For me most imitation meats just don't hit the same notes. One of the mainstays of my childhood was a lamb and leek stew called cawl. I've tried different meat substitutes but none get the right flavour there. Ironically, the closest I've gotten is to skip meat replacements and just put some butter in, it produces the same creamy, fatty taste lamb meat does.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by whimsicalism on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:48PM (#26988285)
I think lamb is also one that is particularly hard to substitute, IMO.

I feel like you can get a good portion of the texture of beef with some good seitan, for instance. Otherwise, most of them are only really approximate substitutes, in the sense that they substitute what you would use meat for in the meal, not that they substitute directly for a given meat.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by robrenaud on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:58PM (#26988359)
As someone who has drank 3,000+ different commercial beers, and has brewed a few hundred gallons of homebrew (alcoholic) beer, I'd highly recommend giving athletic brewing companies non-alcoholic beers a shot.

This beer is better than the median alcoholic coffee porter. https://athleticbrewing.com/products/first-ride-coffee-porte...

Their IPAs aren't as good as say, Founder's All Day IPA, but they aren't substantially worse, and they have 1/10th the alcohol.

If you want to drink something for 100 calories, these compare favorably in taste to just about everything, IMO.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by notacoward on Thursday April 29, 2021 @09:25PM (#26988901)
Seconded. Just finished one less than half an hour ago, in fact, because I'm abstaining for a bit after my second Pfizer shot (apparently alcohol is not ideal for the process). Sometimes low-calorie and/or no-alcohol are desirable traits. When I can I'll still go for a Southern Tier or Allagash product, but Athletic makes some thoroughly decent drinkable beers for a different set of occasions.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by piyh on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:15PM (#26989202)
Members of my family are dry and drink NA beer. I buy it to have it around for them, but honestly it's great for having a beer with lunch, or wanting to drink something that isn't sugar. Even going over to a friends place while I'm planning on driving, go every other beer real vs NA.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by anyfoo on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:44PM (#26988657)
> anymore than I'd drink non-alcoholic beer.

Non-alcoholic beer seems more popular in Germany (yes, Germany, where beer is very serious business) than in the US.

I like it a lot, because it's a refreshing drink with good taste and no alcohol, well suitable if you want to drive or just don't feel like drinking alcohol right now.

I wish it was more common in the US (where I live now).

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by thomaslangston on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:54PM (#26989430)
It was very common in Miami, and I can find it usually in normal grocery stores in NYC.

Goya Malta and O'Doul's are the brands I'm most familiar with.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by Ma8ee on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:30PM (#26987044)
We drink a lot of non alcoholic beer. I want something more exiting than water even on work day lunches and I don’t like sweet drinks and I’m trying to reduce my caffeine intake. Not that much left to choose from then.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by scarmig on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:56PM (#26987320)
There's a product called Hop Water that hits a perfect spot for me. No alcohol or calories in it, and it is refreshing and hoppy enough to drink either by itself or to cut the oilyness of many bar-type foods.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by sizzle on Friday April 30, 2021 @01:54AM (#26990203)
Awesome where can I try this??
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by hutzlibu on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:58PM (#26988736)
"Not that much left to choose from then."

If you are happy with non alcoholic beer, stay with that, but have you heard of - Tea?

There are lots and lots of different tea's around, as you can make tea out of allmost anything. So plenty of caffeine-free choices there.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by Ma8ee on Friday April 30, 2021 @01:24AM (#26990072)
I sometimes make ice tea in the summers. But I have to make it myself. All readymade ice tea that I’ve found is horribly sweet.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by piyh on Thursday April 29, 2021 @10:17PM (#26989214)
Why not both?
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by smhenderson on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:13PM (#26986126)
I agree completely but one exception for me is using Boca burger as a sub for ground beef. If I chop them up, season them and then use the result in chili or something it really does give it, to me anyway, the "taste" and "texture" of ground beef.

I know I'm tasting the seasoning I used and the infusion of other flavors from the chili more than the taste of the soy burger but my stomach doesn't care, to me it's just as satisfying as chili (or stew, etc.) made with beef.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by js2 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:37PM (#26986396)
Here's an easy vegetarian chili recipe we've been using for years in my house:

https://pastebin.com/84cwiJ02

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by CobsterLock on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:59PM (#26987350)
Thank you! I'll have to try this. weird that it uses a less chili powder than I usually use in my meat chili (roughly 3 tbs for 2lbs of meat and a can of beans). Maybe I'm just used to a ton more spice. I could have been amping it up after going away from red meat
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by ENIanDEM on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:39PM (#26987675)
That could be because the chili molecule has polarity and clumps together in fatty environments, like meat sauces and yoghurt. Conversely it gets dispersed by water. That recipe probably has a bit less fat than what your usual meaty one has, so less chili goes further :)
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by pezezin on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:32PM (#26988580)
It's actually the other way around: capsaicin is non-polar, that's why it is hydrophobic but soluble in oil and fat.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by sizzle on Friday April 30, 2021 @02:02AM (#26990252)
Have you tried impossible meat? It’s so satisfying and mimics meat better than anything I’ve tried out there.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by zjshsjbd on Thursday April 29, 2021 @09:38PM (#26988985)
Well if anyplace is going to have a decent vegi-burger it will have to be The Vortex.

I love that place. From the decor, to their f* you set of rules, to their food.

Great place. Makes me miss ATl :(

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by TheDong on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:49PM (#26986513)
> I wouldn't eat imitation animal products anymore than I'd drink non-alcoholic beer.

And nor shall I drink anything with corn syrup as that's simply an imitation sugar product, nor do I eat chipotle burritos since they're a pale imitation of actual burritos. I eschew Cavendish bananas entirely since, just like a boca-burger tries to mimic a real burger, the Cavendish banana tries to mimic the real banana. You can taste the difference.

My point here is that "imitation" is very poorly defined. Is a boca burger an imitation? Is a black bean burger? What if the black bean burger uses spices similar to what you use on meat patties?

I think that taking inspiration from another food and trying to mimic it (as chipotle does with real burritos) is a valid way to make a new food, and that food should be judged on its own merits. I don't like "imitation meats" that are just pure saitan for the most part, but I'm fine with other imitation meats. It's not the imitation bit that matters, it's the quality of the thing itself, taken standalone.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by elsyx on Friday April 30, 2021 @01:49PM (#26996822)
> I eschew Cavendish bananas entirely since, just like a boca-burger tries to mimic a real burger, the Cavendish banana tries to mimic the real banana.

That's a strange analogy. Cavendish bananas are a type of "real" banana already. They're not "trying to mimic" anything, and are not at all like Boca burgers in that regard.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by eatbitseveryday on Thursday April 29, 2021 @02:59PM (#26985079)
> stop thinking of certain vegan cheeses as substitutes for animal cheeses

Why do we even begin with naming vegan food products after the items they are meant to represent?

"Cheese" is made from milk. "Vegan cheese" as a label is specifically targeted at being "like milk cheese" and thus intends to replicate it.

If you want

> Why can't it just be treated as a food in itself?

we should entirely dispense with imitating, and create an entirely new food category whose principle is "vegan" and not "like real food minus animal". Invent new stuff. Ferment things from plants but do not reuse any labels that are derived from animals.

If you do not do this, people will still bring this up, because their expectations are intentionally shaped by how something is called.

Don't call vegan cheese as "cheese" if you want it to shape its own path as a new sort of food product.

edit: same with "cakes" which require butter and eggs in their traditional forms. Make something new but perhaps do not call it a cake? Make a new word that sounds catchy (we do all the time, and incorporate these into our language, e.g., Kleenex, google, "cloud" for servers, ...).

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by tpoacher on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:08PM (#26986058)
I don't mind people calling something "vegan cheese" or "vegan milk" or "milk alternative" etc. But I do mind people calling it "cheese" or "milk" intentionally when it's a vegan alternative, revelling in the confusion, just to give the impression that they're interchangeable and it's really no big deal if you get the vegan version instead.

Like, wtf is almond milk? When I was a kid, almond milk was super tasty, and it was basically normal milk mixed in with sweet almond sherbet. What's wrong with calling the vegan almond milk "almond-based milk alternative" if it's not actual milk? If you asked me for almond milk and I gave you actual "almond milk" (i.e. the dairy kind) and it turned out you were vegan, you'd be pissed off, right?

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by danShumway on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:53PM (#26986549)
> and I gave you actual "almond milk"

What makes that the actual version? Almond milk as an animal milk substitute made from almonds dates back to the 1300s[0]. It's not new.

I hear where you're coming from, but I also question what does and doesn't count as an "authentic" name, and I suspect a lot of it comes down to people thinking that the names they used growing up or the names they ran into first are the "real" ones and everything else is a new fad.

When people are arguing about confusion I'm a little bit sympathetic (although I'm doubtful consumer confusion is actually the serious problem they make it out to be). But when people start to argue about needing to use proper words, I usually check out, because usually they have a very narrow view of what word origins count as proper. They're rarely tracing the etymology of the word, they're usually just saying that everyone should adopt the same definitions that their specific parents used.

So let me flip your question around on you: almond sherbet already traditionally contains milk. What would be wrong with calling almond sherbet... almond sherbet, or an almond milkshake if the balance of milk is increased. That would be helpful anyway, because you could make vegan almond sherbet using a vegan milk as a base, and then what are you going to call it under your system?

My take on this is that vegan cheese/milk is substitutable in nearly every single recipe I make. Many people dislike the taste of vegan cheese, which I understand and think is completely valid, but many people also dislike the taste of brie and I don't see a general campaign to classify brie as a non-cheese. So part of why I call those products vegan milk/cheese instead of "cheeze" is because I think if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and if I can use it in all of my duck recipes often without any additional thought or research, then for all practical purposes it's a duck.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almond_milk

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by tpoacher on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:14PM (#26988018)
Almond sherbet is the sherbet itself, not the milk drink, but I take the point. And I guess almond milk wasn't the best example to focus on, but I was referring more generally to the trend of intentional misnaming that I have observed.

So, e.g., given your 'quacks like a duck' theory, I could happily cook a "mushroom risotto" with mushroomy chicken instead of actual mushroom, and that would still be a perfectly fine mushroom risotto, right? Except serving that to a vegan claiming it's a "mushroom risotto" would probably make me an ass, and all linguistic subtleties of what constitutes 'mushroominess' in chicken would probably fly out the window.

Note I'm not arguing about what ingredients are substitutable for others and thus comparable. I'm arguing about naming, and specifically about naming intended to produce confusion and blur the definitions for the purpose of marketing. So while I partly agree with the 'quacks like a duck' thing, I think a big part of why it's fine to have non-dairy 'cheese', but not fine to have chicken-based 'mushrooms' comes down to which direction of duck-quacking feels more 'defendable' than what constitutes acceptable substitutes in terms of flavour.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by wumpus on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:21AM (#26989789)
Cheese and milk products made from allergens (cashews and other nuts) are pretty careful with their labeling, because people die from nut allergies every day. Your hidden-chicken risotto would make me very ill for a day or two. I always ask before ordering risotto, just in case the restaurant is being careless.

How is it intentional misnaming to use a term like "Almond Milk", which has been used in English back to the origin of the language? Care to look up how long "rice milk" in Japanese has contained the Japanese word for milk? ミルク and ライスミルク.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by danShumway on Friday April 30, 2021 @09:21AM (#26993076)
Honestly? Yes, if you made a mushroom risotto with chicken, and it was genuinely designed to imitate a mushroom risotto, then that's what I would call it: a mushroom risotto with chicken. What would you call it? Would you come up with an entirely new name?

> Except serving that to a vegan claiming it's a "mushroom risotto" would probably make me an ass

To be clear, the jerk part here would be serving non-vegan food to a vegan, not the name. If you made a mushroom risotto and slathered butter over it, it would be just as much of a jerk move. This is actually something that comes up a lot with vegan food, it's why we need to read labels. There are multiple artificial meats that are made with milk and eggs and are vegetarian friendly but not vegan friendly. It's rarely safe to assume something is vegan just because vegetables are the primary ingredient or because it's "plant-based".

If you want to think of it from another perspective, I would say the same thing is true of allergens. If you made a mushroom risotto and incorporated a peanut sauce or glaze, I don't have an issue with you calling it a mushroom risotto, I don't think anything fundamental has changed about the food. But it would definitely be a jerk move (and potentially negligent homicide) to feed it to someone you knew had a peanut allergy, and you would need to make sure that if you sold it in a store that it showed peanuts prominently in the ingredients.

> intended to produce confusion and blur the definitions for the purpose of marketing

I don't particularly care about marketing purposes, I don't think the term "almond milk" is any more deceptive than the term "turkey pepperoni" or "black bean brownies". And I do not believe that when the meat industry lobbies to get stuff renamed to "almond juice", they're doing it out of concern for confusion, they just want to create certain connotations in the exact same way that vegan companies want to do.

But if you wanted legislation that required food to clearly indicate whether or not it contained animal products, it would make my life a great deal easier, I would be able to stop reading individual ingredients to find out whether or not a loaf of bread was vegan.

Right now you can indicate whether a food is vegan/vegetarian, and many products that are marketing to vegans do, especially imitation meats and plant based cheese/milk/butter which I've found to be pretty prominent. But there's no requirement to do so, and many animal products (esp less 'palatable' ingredients like shellac) are allowed to be listed in ingredient lists with no other information at all. I often have to not just read ingredients but look up new terms that I'm unfamiliar with on my phone. Some ingredients don't even have a clear answer, they might be derived from animals or they might not be, and there's no obligation for food manufacturers to indicate which version they're using.

An easy way to solve this problem would be for labeling purposes to treat animal by-products and meat more like an allergen, require a line after the ingredients stating "contains ingredients derived from animals".

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by tpoacher on Friday April 30, 2021 @11:16AM (#26994508)
Yes that's what I meant by 'defendable direction'. Feeding 'actual' fried chicken to a person expecting "vegan fried chicken" is a dick move, because they're vegan. But the reverse would probably just be seen as a 'harmless "educational" joke', even though it's still equally dickish. But this perceived defensibility imbalance is partly what creates this confusion-inducing cavalier appropriation of food names.

I don't agree with 'turkey pepperoni' and 'blackbean brownies' as being comparable to 'fried chicken (vegan)' or 'ham and cheese toastie (vegan)' (though, ok, they were just examples, perhaps unfortunate, like my almond milk one). The difference is these are primarily recipes, not base ingredients. Obviously, the distinction is not always clear (is cheese an ingredient or a recipe? Is bread? But I would argue in most people's head these are ingredients, not a family of recipes). It's one thing to talk about recipe variants (vegan or otherwise), it's another to talk about a Costa vegan ham and cheese toastie (as welcome as it may be as a dish). It's just begging for confusion. And, I have zero clue what crap I'm eating when I order one.

I sympathise with the ingredients listing thing though. I'm effectively vegan-eating slightly more than half days of the year, and not having to carefully read through ingredients just to spot the errant 'whey powder' at the end would be very welcome.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by danShumway on Saturday May 01, 2021 @02:59PM (#27008843)
> a 'harmless "educational" joke',

Feeding someone food that they don't want to eat is a jerk move regardless of what direction you're going.

I do think part of the reason why people take the vegan direction more seriously is that many vegans have strong preferences against eating those foods, and most non-vegans don't. To pull it out of the vegan world and offer a different perspective, this is the same reason why it's more of a jerk move to sneak a Muslim pork than it is to sneak them a black bean brownie. But of course, if you know someone has even a mild preference against eating any food, sneaking them that food is a jerk move. Don't do that, not even for minor preferences.

My only disagreement on this front is that I don't see how respecting those people requires forcing general food names to have one-to-one correlations to a specific ingredients list. And I say that as a vegan who does not get offended if a restaurant puts butter on their green beans and still calls them green beans, or if someone calls cricket flour "flour" even though it's not made from grain. I'm not trying to reclaim the word "salad" or anything. All I want is for the restaurant to be able to tell me if something is vegan or not if I ask, or to label it one way or another. And that labeling can be useful for non-vegans as well.

> It's one thing to talk about recipe variants [...], it's another to talk about a Costa vegan ham and cheese toastie (as welcome as it may be as a dish). It's just begging for confusion. And, I have zero clue what crap I'm eating when I order one.

I'm not sure. I somewhat get what you're saying, but I think there are two reasons I'm skeptical about this argument:

First, if you have a preference/allergy regarding products like soy and corn, buying meat-based products already isn't safe. The meat industry has been using soy and other ingredients for filler, flavoring, and preservatives for years and their labeling on that front is not particularly great. A good 5-10% of taco bell meat you buy will be additives like thickeners. So the "meat" word isn't protecting people who really want to avoid common vegan ingredients or processed foods. That's a problem that can only be solved with labeling.

Secondly, I'm skeptical because over the years the actual legal arguments being made in this debate have taken on an element of absurdity to me, even when dealing with non-recipe foods. As a specific example, the US FDA currently defines "milk" as coming purely from a cow. But that's just ridiculous, nobody would argue that goat milk or breast milk isn't real milk. Nobody would argue that consumer confusion is a good reason to call goat milk something like "lactation" or "juice" instead. And seeing what the industry actually lobbies for, I just don't believe confusion is what the industry cares about. It makes me wonder what's going to happen when lab-meat becomes a thing, and whether the meat industry is still going to have the exact same debates about a food product that is chemically identical to what they're selling.

I think sometimes the distinctions between two foods are small enough that they should share the same name even though the distinctions might matter to some (even many) people. The difference between 2% and whole milk matters nutritionally and labeling should reflect that, but they're both still milk. The difference between breast milk and bovine milk definitely matters, and you'd better not give me brownies made with breast milk or I am never visiting your house again and I am telling all the neighbors to avoid you. But they're both still milk. The difference between brie and cheddar cheese is huge, involving both taste and texture -- but they're both still cheese. So we're in a situation where vegan milk/eggs/cheese and animal milk/eggs/cheese are used almost exactly the same way in most recipes, they look the same, they accomplish the same goals in most meals, and while they're distinguishable when eaten, the taste difference between vegan cheddar and regular cheddar is not (imo) as large as the difference between cheddar and, say, cottage cheese. The differences do matter, particularly nutritionally, and they should be clearly labeled, but do they matter so much that they need completely separate words? I would argue that putting them in the same category of food is the least confusing way to talk about them, and nutritional/ingredient labeling is a separate concern from etymology.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by cheese_goddess on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:53PM (#26987295)
> What makes that the actual version?

That it's milk with almond. Like "chocolate milk" is milk with chocolate and "milk coffee" is coffee with milk.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by wumpus on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:23AM (#26989801)
So if I'm Catholic, it's OK for me to drink almond-flavored dairy-milk during Lent? Win!

From medieval and Renaissance-era recipes, religious rules appears to be the main reason almond milk is used. Because it's not dairy.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by frabbit on Saturday May 01, 2021 @11:10AM (#27006921)
Not sure about that, but I do know that if you want to eat capybara on Fridays as your fish dish you should be fine.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by jhbadger on Friday April 30, 2021 @09:10AM (#26992937)
Do you have a problem with the name "peanut butter"? It isn't butter with peanuts in it. Or mincemeat pie, which isn't made out of minced meat?
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by frabbit on Saturday May 01, 2021 @11:10AM (#27006914)
Proper mincemeat pies contain suet and have a very different taste from the vegetarian ones. So yes, in that case it is a problematic name that conflates two usefully distinct things.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by DangitBobby on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:18PM (#26986182)
> What's wrong with calling the vegan almond milk "almond-based milk alternative" if it's not actual milk?

Because that would be crippling for an advertising perspective. It sounds like something out of a satirical sci-fi dystopian environment. The goal is to encourage people to choose it as an alternative to dairy milk, not to use the most precise label.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by mywittyname on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:27PM (#26987001)
Food is very highly regulated. And for good reason.

It seems totally feasible to require a new product to have a new name, even if it's kind of like an existing product. Think: ice cream. Ice cream is a regulated product with a formal legal definition. Places making cheaper ice cream substitutes were forced to come up with names to distinguish their products: soft serve, Frosty, FroYo, etc.

It takes the consumer all of 10 seconds to get the gist.

Everyone should be okay with truth in food. Especially vegan, who certainly would NOT be okay with products that mislead them into believing a product is vegan when it is not.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by DangitBobby on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:03PM (#26987391)
Im sure there is a happy middle ground here where nut juice could be called something both attractive and accurate, but not all foods are protected like that. Milk chocolate is not really chocolate, lots of things with "pie" in the name aren't really pie, lemon "bars" are not really bars, choco tacos are not really tacos, peanuts are not actually nuts, and numerous other examples. If they made it illegal to label nut juices as milk, it would due to lobbying from dairy and not from a general protection of accurate food labeling.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by mywittyname on Friday April 30, 2021 @04:46PM (#26999076)
Chocolate, is in fact "protected like that." The Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) contains a section on Cocao, and foods must meet the legal requirements to be called milk chocolate, otherwise, they'd have to be called something generic a "confectionery" or given a brand name, like "Meelk-Shock-o-Lock®".

Lots of foods are regulated by the FDA or USDA. Mayo, yoghurt, butter, bread, etc, etc. If you search the FDA or USDA site, you'll find the requirements that must be met for a company to use such terms. That's why Miracle Whip is called a "dressing," in the USA instead of Mayonnaise.

The CFR contains a subsection specifically for frozen pies (though, one of the Trump administrations last acts was to gut this). Lemon bars must contain lemons, per food labeling regulations. Peanuts have a section too.

And yeah, industry lobbyists are largely the creators of legal definitions for foods. If you're a beef producer, you certainly don't want other companies to be able to sell ground up bugs as "ground beef" and undercut your prices or give consumers a bad impression of your product.

I will concede, tacos are not regulated.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by wumpus on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:24AM (#26989806)
"new product", one that's hundreds of years old. Check out medieval and Renaissance recipes for Fridays and Lent.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by tpoacher on Friday April 30, 2021 @04:47AM (#26991144)
Don't go there. E.g. Olive oil is considered an animal product for Lent purposes because it used to be carried in flasks made from animal hide. And whether to use almond milk ot not depends on permission from your priest, if they think you are simply mimicking the forbidden stuff it "imitates", and thus still worth avoiding.

This has little to do with the stop confusing the names of things argument.

I concede that almond milk was a bad example, but if anything that strengthens the point.

I bet even back then people had the same discussion in fact :p

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by mixmastamyk on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:32PM (#26987060)
Trader Joe's (and maybe others) uses the word "beverage" to describe a lot of its milk alternatives.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by tpoacher on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:36PM (#26986387)
I get it. But it could have easily been a play on the word 'milk/milky', without calling it 'milk' per se. Like "Nilk" or "Plantmilk" or something.

E.g. lactose-free dairy milk is marketed as 'delac'. It's not that hard.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by cheese_goddess on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:59PM (#26987351)
Lactose-free dairy milk is milk with added lactase, an enzyme that is used by mammals to digest lactose in milk. Now, children, remember from dairy science class: lactose is a complex sugar made of two siple sugars, glucose and galactose. Lactase breaks lactose down to its constituent simple sugars so that they can more easily be absorbed by picky mammalian guts.

Fun fact: lactose-free milk still has all the sugars that made up its original lactose content (you could even argue it still has all its lactose, if you wanted to be really obstinate). Glucose in particular registers as sweeter than lactose and for this reason many "lactose-free" milks have messages on the packaging informing consumers that they have "no sweetener added".

Lactose-free milks also tend to be Ultra Heat Treated, which enhances the sweet taste by means of the Maillard reaction. See wikipedia.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by JoeAltmaier on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:05PM (#26987411)
Huh? Almond milk goes back 500 years and has always, always been made of only almonds. It would be very strange to rename it after 200 generations and several civilizations have come and gone.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by milesvp on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:55PM (#26987839)
Bah! I think you may be right. A quick google corroborates it was referenced in english as early as the 14th century. I’ve been annoyed at the term milk for non lactose based liquids for a while now. I’d assumed it was modern marketing usurping the term. Now I have to find some other thing to be mildly annoyed at.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by JoeAltmaier on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:42AM (#26989883)
I was the same way. Its hard on this old dog sometimes.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by tpoacher on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:27PM (#26988119)
Yes you're right that was a bad example. My bad choice of specific example shouldn't dismiss the more general point though.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by wumpus on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:25AM (#26989816)
If you want to pick another bad example, consider "rice milk" in Asia. Not a dairy product.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by tpoacher on Friday April 30, 2021 @04:44AM (#26991125)
Indeed. So introducing a dairy beverage called rice milk would cause unnecessary confusion. Yes?
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by JoeAltmaier on Friday April 30, 2021 @08:23AM (#26992490)
I don't know. We already have sheeps' milk, cows' milk, mothers' milk, milkweed...perhaps folks are ready for some variation in their language.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by ragingrobot on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:06PM (#26988405)
> What's wrong with calling the vegan almond milk "almond-based milk alternative" if it's not actual milk?

Costco does this. They don't call it almond milk but "Almond beverage". I think they do similar with other vegan products.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by Djvacto on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:13PM (#26986125)
I'm curious, do you have a link or image of what that "almond milk" you used to have was?

Obviously searching for the various possible terms gives results mostly from recent times, about the vegan almond milk.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by tpoacher on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:25PM (#26986263)
Well, admittedly, I'm thinking in my native language, which is Greek, and where "almond milk" was basically milk mixed in with "Soumada" [1]. Whereas if you say "almond milk" now even in greek, it'll probably refer to the vegan stuff, and you'll have to literally say "milk with the taste of almond" for the other one.

Soumada is very tasty, a bit like amaretto but without the alcohol. I haven't had it in years ...

A similar and very popular drink along similar lines is "rose milk", which is stirring up some rose sherbet in milk.

It was a popular way of getting kids to drink milk back in my day (slightly less popular these days).

But I admit, if a vegan "rose milk" comes out as some milky alternative made of rose petals and I have to repurpose "rose milk" as well, I'm going to be quite upset :p

[1] https://www.mycretangoods.com/article/16856/Soumada-traditio...

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by cheese_goddess on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:02PM (#26987384)
> Well, admittedly, I'm thinking in my native language, which is Greek, and where "almond milk" was basically milk mixed in with "Soumada" [1].

"Αμυγδαλόγαλα"; I confess I've never heard that word but maybe it's just an old word?

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by tpoacher on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:17PM (#26988045)
In Greek you don't tend to say that, you'd say Γάλα Αμύγδαλο instead (similarly Γάλα Σοκολάτα for chocolate milk, and Γάλα Τριαντάφυλλο for rose milk).
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by cheese_goddess on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:20PM (#26988502)
Ah, I see. Γάλα σοκολάτα, I know. I hadn't heard of the others but they make sense in that way.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by interestica on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:45PM (#26987195)
I guess we should always be specifying "Cow's" milk.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by bin_bash on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:35PM (#26986367)
It’s because “almond juice” sounds disgusting
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by wheybags on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:18PM (#26988474)
I'm a big fan of cow juice myself.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by AussieWog93 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:09PM (#26988417)
We don't need to invent new anything. So many great vegan dishes have existed for centuries and survived against meat on their own merits. Proper falafel with tabouleh and tahini is amazing. Chana or brinjal masala are a treat. Pasta with a simple 4 ingredient Napoli is the ultimate comfort food. Don't even get me started on dosa. Hell, fucking bread dipped in olive oil is good.

Yet, for God knows what reason, whenever some vegan is trying to convince me of the merits of their diet, they hand me some godawful dry sausage made of hydrolysed soy protein and say "see, it's just like a real sausage. Did you know she's Paul McCartney's daughter?". Or some fermented cashew nuts smeared on a piece of bread that they think is anything remotely like cheese. I have never understood this and have since reached the conclusion that most vegans are closer to paleo, gluten-free (not coeliac) and other alternative diet folk in that they just don't "get" people who derive a massive amount of pleasure from food.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by spfzero on Friday April 30, 2021 @02:54AM (#26990536)
Why would you think Paleo food choices aren't appreciated by people who derive a massive amount of pleasure from food? Paleo/Primal foods are the most satisfying, tastey and healthy foods. The feelings around food are evolutionarily rooted. We are always going to be most satisfied by the foods that are best for us, it's by design.

There is an epidemiological experiment that has been going on for over a million years. It resulted in a population of 8 billion homo sapiens. That is not actually good for the Earth, but if you want to know what to eat, to maximize your health as an individual, look that way.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by freeflight on Friday April 30, 2021 @06:31AM (#26991727)
> We are always going to be most satisfied by the foods that are best for us, it's by design.

Not with modern food science. A lot of people consider cornsyrupy sugar water to be satisfying because companies have collectively spent billions and decades in R&D and marketing to make it taste and look as satisfying as possible.

It works because our sense are not infallible, they can be tricked and purposefully mislead. Just like taste expectations are often built from childhood on.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by AussieWog93 on Friday April 30, 2021 @05:26AM (#26991366)
>Why would you think Paleo food choices aren't appreciated by people who derive a massive amount of pleasure from food?

Mainly it's the language that is used by people who adhere to diets such as this. There is more reference to the health properties of various ingredients than there is the art of cooking, and this feels alien to people like myself. Of course, there are paleo foodies (just as there are vegans), but they are in the minority.

I'm not saying the way you see things is wrong (if anything, the fact that you're almost certainly healthier than me is strong evidence to the contrary), but for evangelists of alternative diets there is a cultural barrier to overcome that vegans especially seem to just not be aware of.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by kewrkewm53 on Friday April 30, 2021 @04:55AM (#26991184)
Exactly. There are plenty of great vegan dishes you can do without having to use any highly processed stuff.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by fooblat on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:09PM (#26985224)
Where I live in the EU, a product cannot legally be labeled as cheese if it does not meet the official definition of cheese, which includes being made from milk.

We also have lots of vegan "cheese" type products with funny names like "Keese" and "Cheez" and some are pretty good.

I like keeping the names clear because no one gets confused and buys the wrong thing.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by stonesweep on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:05PM (#26986014)
In the US it's the same, the FDA has regulations and all the (not real cheese) items have either a funny name ("cheeze") or have something like "imitation cheese product" or "cheese food product" (I've seen a number of different labels over my life) to indicate it's not real (milk) cheese.

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFR...

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by rusk on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:24PM (#26985435)
Em nope? There was a case brought by the farmers to try and outlaw this labelling but the case is still ongoing, if not thrown out already ...

Maybe it’s the case in Your Country but it’s far from being a pan European thing.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by fooblat on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:43PM (#26985729)
Em yes!

"The European Parliament has voted in favour of an amendment (no.171) which would place further restrictions on the use of dairy food labels for plant-based products. The use of dairy terms, such as "cheese", "yoghurt" and "milk", for non-dairy products is already banned within the EU, following a decision by the CJEU in 2017, however, under the new amendment, these restrictions would go one step further by also prohibiting terms that liken plant-based products to dairy, eg "yoghurt-style", "butter alternative" or "cheese substitute"."[0]

0. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=588638a6-879c...

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by rusk on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:14PM (#26986140)
Apologies that’s a new one on me I guess it hasn’t made it to my neck of the woods yet! I don’t think the similar effort around meats has gone so well ...

EDIT still ongoing and not yet legislated you can still buy “vegan cheese” for now https://m.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/amendment-171-34-pol...

It’s interesting that your jurisdiction is so proactive in this area!

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by freeflight on Friday April 30, 2021 @06:38AM (#26991768)
> Amendment 171: 34 politicians protest plant-based dairy censorship in European Parliament

Between that title, and it having been posted on April the 1st, I find it difficult to take that article serious.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by rusk on Friday April 30, 2021 @07:07AM (#26991951)
Well you can go look up literally any other recent article on the topic.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by delecti on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:26PM (#26985473)
I broadly agree, certainly so with all the vegan cheese approximations I've tried, but I don't think it applies to cakes. The cake recipe I grew up eating (in a non-vegetarian, lower middle class, US household) was "accidentally vegan". It absolutely passes the test of "if you didn't know you wouldn't know". Incidentally I think impossible burgers pass that test too, and beyond burgers only barely don't.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by Clewza313 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:56PM (#26987853)
Fun factoid: in Chinese, there are different terms for soy juice (豆浆 doujiang), freshly made from soy and meant to taste like it, and Western-style soy milk (豆奶 dounai), which adds in all sorts of weird additives, particularly oil, and ends up tasting like neither. The latter did not exist in China until the concept was imported from the West, and remains far more niche (coffee shops, packaged drinks) than the original.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by qudat on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:59PM (#26985942)
The main exception I would grant to this is when you have ingredients in a recipe that you need to figure out vegan substitutions for. In this case you do want something marketed as the vegan version of it.

Eggs, in particular, need a valid vegan substitute. As an aside, if we could veganize all the different incantations of an egg it would be ground-breaking. Alas, I fear we are doomed to have 5 different vegan products to replace those incantations of an egg. 1 for scrambled eggs, 1 for baking, 1 for emulsifying, 1 for adhesion, etc.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by PKop on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:11PM (#26986766)
>Why do we

Because this is as much a political statement, and battle, as it is a personal dietary choice.

As crazy as it sounds, a certain segment of people love to change the definition of words. It is not enough to not want to eat animal products themselves, they also are not content to allow others to have these things to themselves unmolested by grotesque artificial imitations.

They want their non-thing to become the thing, replace it, and to the degree it disgusts and frustrates the normal crowd and impinges on their enjoyment of the normal version, the happier they are.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by jodrellblank on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:46PM (#26987206)
Much simpler to assume that selling to omnivores opens a much larger market than selling only to vegans. Omnivores want to eat cheese, and are not looking for "fermented cashew cubes", but might try "cashew cheese" if it was with the cheese and (cheaper/healthier/prettier/recommended by a friend).
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by strken on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:29PM (#26987588)
I wish vegan cheese would be more specific as to what it's imitating. "Cashew cheese" is less helpful than "cashew paneer (great in curries!)" or "melty cashew mozzarella" or something that describes what facet of real cheese they've managed to get right.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by etrautmann on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:16PM (#26985334)
it's a good point, and one I broadly agree with. These products do exist, however, like seitan and tempeh. If you making something sufficiently delicious, however, it should be easier to sell than those (IMO).
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by ianai on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:04PM (#26985143)
Agreed. I explained benevolent bacon to someone as “you’re not going to think ‘wow it’s like I just ate bacon’ but you might think ‘ok I don’t need to eat bacon when I’ve had that’.” For me, anyway, certain key flavors and textures are there, but it’s still a new experience itself.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by kingsuper20 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:24PM (#26985443)
>Why can't it just be treated as a food in itself?

Exactly. Maybe the main problem is that it's hard to market 'Soylent Yellow'.

If I were to become a vegetarian, I think I'd just buy a bunch of Indian cookbooks and stay away from IncrediblyMeatyPlantBasedBurger(tm).

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by vnorilo on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:41PM (#26985710)
This. As a flexitarian trying to increase veg protein to decrease my footprint I find I enjoy cooking with tofu, dried soy crumbs, chicpeas and home made seitan the most. They are also very versatile and do not introduce seven conflicting flavors and colors out of the box. Simple and been on the shelves since forever. Fake meats can be impressive as engineering but before long tend to feel weird, off and/or boring.

Impossible does a great job of imitating meat, primarily the flavor of blood. But as I'm eating less meat, I'm tasting the blood more distinctly and find I actually don't enjoy it at all.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by bfrog on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:34PM (#26988181)
Soy curls are great with buffalo sauce
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by darkwater on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:33PM (#26985552)
Or ultra-processed junk food in general. Being a vegetarian is a good "excuse" (or side effect if you prefer) to avoid that kind of food but all those surrogates are basically following the trails of junk food. I understand their "gateway drug" behavior but still...
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by kingsuper20 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:51PM (#26985854)
I agree, and that is an odd thing.

Our local way-overpriced health grocery story, which is always packed with people, is completely stuffed with health potato chips and health dessert items and health pre-made stuff with long ingredient lists.

Maybe it's just the beauty of a free market, you can always make money on social behavior.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by bfrog on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:41PM (#26988229)
Yeah don't get me wrong prepackaged food can be a big list of what!? On the other hand some of it really does seem reasonably made. At least until the Big Evil Food Co buys them out.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by asdf3243245q on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:09PM (#26986736)
It's because people are working with existing recipes they know and dishes they grew up on and have fond memories of. Thus having a good vegan version of those recipes often relies on having a reasonable ingredient substitution.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by woofcat on Thursday April 29, 2021 @02:56PM (#26985024)
>Why can't it just be treated as a food in itself?

It can but if the objective is to reduce the world's, and specifically North America's appetite for animal products. You need to either aim to replace the current products or await a culture shift away from what is easy and cheap today.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by throwaway5752 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:01PM (#26985104)
We can also wait (not so long, either) for increasingly severe heat waves and droughts to harm the viability of the dairy industry in the US. That way scarcity and cost will take care of the job in a less gentle way, but there were be a lot of other incidental problems to cope with.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by captainredbeard on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:52PM (#26985865)
I bet it would just cause a change in production conditions which would be poor for the animals. It would be far better to find sustainable ways to use the livestock to sequester carbon (c.f. Allan Savory TED talk) and limit their environmental impact instead of giving up good eating.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by xdennis on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:26PM (#26985461)
Your objective is terrible. The ability to eat as much animal products as you desire is synonymous with living in a first world country. A future where we can no longer do that is backwards.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by ccmonnett on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:29PM (#26985509)
Your ability to eat as much food as you desire is synonymous with living in a first world country.

The ability murder as many animals as you want is not the desired state I look for when thinking about the world in which my child to grow up. A future in which that is synonymous with status is backwards - to me.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by captainredbeard on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:50PM (#26985840)
Well, you can choose to not contribute to animal-based agriculture. Similarly, I do not want mine to grow up in a world with forced veganism. Who wins in this conflict? I would say you keep your morals in your court for such contentious issues, to do otherwise is maliciously aggressive.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by ben_w on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:25PM (#26986250)
I don’t know if cows can suffer like humans can or not, so I am content to not get in your way.

That said, I invite you to consider what you would and would not allow others to do given a hypothetical: if you genuinely believed that cows were just as capable of suffering as humans — especially given that cows lactate only after giving birth, and dairy cows live only for so long as their milk is worth more than the cost of keeping them alive.

Most functioning adults can keep quiet about a simple preference (for Star Trek when around Star Wars fans, or whatever) but morals don’t work the same.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by captainredbeard on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:46PM (#26988270)
> Most functioning adults can keep quiet about a simple preference but morals don’t work the same.

Handling difficult feelings without acting out is one of the definitions of being a functional adult. You may have that backwards, though it is very consistent with the pop culture moral / philosophical (behavioral?) flavor of late.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by ben_w on Friday April 30, 2021 @10:24AM (#26993869)
Counterpoints: every religious war ever. The “war” on drugs. Prohibition. Moral crusades for censorship or elimination of porn. Rules against sex work in general. Sections 64, 65, 69, 70 and 71 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. The religious affiliation requirements in the rules of succession of the British Crown. Forbidden foods in Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and others. Western prohibition on multiple spouses.

The level of enforcement and punishment varies form instance to instance, from culture to culture, and from year to year, but there are cases even today where religious morality leads to extreme use of force: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/hindu-mob...

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by captainredbeard on Saturday May 01, 2021 @01:00PM (#27007812)
Those are examples of dysfunctional adults acting out. Thank you for making my case for me!
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by ben_w on Saturday May 01, 2021 @02:57PM (#27008820)
If you choose to describe majority of the electorate in multiple elections in a row as “not meeting the definition of ‘being a functional adult’”, then whatever definition you used for those words are not useful ones — and that’s just Prohibition.

Disagreeing with the requirements of sections 64, 65, and 70? Outside of philosophical discussions, most normal people find them sufficiently repulsive that even suggesting they might not be things that ought to be illegal is enough to make you a social pariah. (I’m not sure exactly how 69 or 71 are seen, but the actions they outlaw are demonstrably frowned on enough for the sections to survive multiple elections).

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by captainredbeard on Friday May 07, 2021 @05:30PM (#27081068)
Fair point - thank you for the reasoned reply, esp. regarding the specifics for sections 64, 65, 70...
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by freeflight on Friday April 30, 2021 @06:48AM (#26991828)
It's sad how this whole discourse so often boils down to the two extreme choices of "No animal products at all, you murderer!" vs "So much animal products as I want, you dictator!".

When imho a pretty sensible middle ground could very well be found between these two. But that would involve some moderation, rediscovering animal products as something special, and not just a mass commodity, something neither of the two extreme camps would ever agree with.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by amusedcyclist on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:58PM (#26988358)
How is the presence of vegan cheese forced veganism ? Let us incorporate the true environmental cost of animal products into the price at the supermarket and have them compete fairly.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by xdennis on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:35PM (#26985596)
> murder

Please show me the law.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by ben_w on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:42PM (#26985722)
They’re clearly using the word in the moral sense rather than the legal sense.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by xdennis on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:51PM (#26985845)
So in the wrong sense?

This squeamishness is a product of the infantilization western culture seems to be going through recently. Hopefully immigration from 2/3-world countries (e.g. me) helps fix it.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by ben_w on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:04PM (#26986006)
It’s a perfectly legit use of the word. Words are not defined by God; they get their meaning though use, and Merriam-Webster records one such use is “to slaughter wantonly”.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by amusedcyclist on Thursday April 29, 2021 @08:01PM (#26988378)
A 'squeamishness' that comes from the reality that we don't need to kill animals to live comfortably anymore. The morality of a rich society is naturally different from the morality of poor country.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by whynotkeithberg on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:05PM (#26986015)
Yeah veganism is 100% a first world privilege.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by hombre_fatal on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:31PM (#26986327)
Not at all. I live next to a tiny shop in Mexico that sells fruits, vegetables, and some extras like oatmeal and beans and olive oil. I eat healthier (according to research reviewed by NutritionFacts.org) and more cheaply than anyone I know once I decided to limit my diet to only the things they have, incidentally vegan.

I spend almost nothing on food in this shop. Same for all the poor Mexicans who live in the area.

It’s quite obvious that ubiquitous access to cheap animal products is a first world thing.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by 8f2ab37a-ed6c on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:53PM (#26986550)
Let me introduce you to South Indian cuisine... yes, it's not actually 100% vegan, but it goes to show that you don't need to be a Marin County millionaire to eat healthy plant-based food most of your life.
Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by chevill on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:41PM (#26985702)
>I guess I just see it as a fool's errand to try to approach vegan cheeses as imitations.

I don't really think its a fool's errand for consumers to approach food as an imitation when its literally developed and marketed as an imitation/replacement.

Eventually the imitations and/or authentic lab grown food might get it right. Until then people will rightfully complain about them when they are disappointed.

Personally If I wanted to eat less animal products I'd just eat more fruit/vegetables/grains/rice prepared in traditional ways. They are delicious and likely to remain better than anything artificial at least for several more decades.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by Djvacto on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:07PM (#26987983)
Where I think the imitations are a bit more useful than home cooking (besides the fact that we do like to have some easy imitation meals sometimes), is levelling the playing field with stuff like fast food, BBQs, restaurants whose cuisine isn't typically vegan. Substituting the only meat part of, say, a burger is easy when there's, well, a substitute.

While I also like black bean burgers, veggie patties, etc (though I can't personally handle portobello mushrooms as a patty, I know tons of people also love that), it's clear that people like having the pseudo-meat option.

I know I do like having the option, especially for cooking when I don't want to make seitan or grounds or something from scratch, which involves following a whole other recipe just to reach my "base protein" that I then cook with.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by dfxm12 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @04:01PM (#26985969)
Why can't it just be treated as a food in itself?

The producers of this stuff don't need to market to informed consumers like yourself. They need to go after the people who, while looking at items on a super market shelf, have no idea what to do with "cultured nut butter" but might have an idea about what "cashew cheese" is.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by cwyers on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:54PM (#26987829)
Because they're vegan cheeses.

There's a lot of cultures with strong vegan food traditions, or at least, there's plenty of dishes that are naturally vegan. Vegan cheese doesn't fall into those traditions, it's a processed food product meant to provide a substitute for cheese without using animal products. That's really the only standard by which it can be judged, how well it succeeds at what it's trying to do.

Re:Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstr... by chme on Thursday April 29, 2021 @03:15PM (#26985320)
There is a difference between imitating and replacing.

Personally I would love a list of animal product ingredients and their suitable vegan replacements when trying to cook after some recipe.