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Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by filereaper on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:05PM (#26439553)
I don't want to minimize the geopolitical issue here but wanted to ask about microsatellites and the ISS.

How do you put the satellite onto its intended orbit, like are only satellites intended with a polar orbit capable of this approach?

Do you need booster rockets to get in the right orbit?

Can we go the other way and use the ISS as like an orbital garage to capture and fix satellites?

This is the first I've heard if the ISS holding onto satellites, I thought satellites are deployed by the launch rocket and just put into orbit.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by ekimekim on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:11PM (#26439625)
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/benefits...

Sounds like in most cases the satellites don't have any propulsion of their own, and are "ejected" onto their orbit from the ISS. Put simply, they get thrown out.

I'm sure some checks are done of the orbital mechanics to avoid any risk of a later collission, but keep in mind that the ISS makes frequent course corrections to stay in orbit, and at this low of an orbit drag is also a factor, so simply being a smaller craft will cause different forces to push you onto a different path.

Obviously this means you have very little choice in your orbit, but for many small satellites this isn't a concern.

EDIT: To answer your "use it as a garage" point, the answer is that it's way too impractical. In orbital mechanics, drifting apart from something is far easier than getting closer to it, and space is really, really big. Plus keep in mind that you need to not only be in the same place at the same time, but you also need to be moving at the same speed (relative velocities in LEO can quickly reach the order of kilometers per second).

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by ryandrake on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:53PM (#26440140)
Yea a few Kerbal Space Program sessions were enough to convince me that it's totally impractical to have a "collector" spacecraft that just goes around collecting old satellites and space trash in different orbits.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by TeMPOraL on Friday March 12, 2021 @03:18PM (#26440391)
KSP gave me the exact same impression, but there's one thing I wonder about: with sufficiently smart global optimization algorithm, maybe a collector craft could approach and collect several targets on a low Δv budget? It's not something you could do manually, but space has also this nice property that you can predict trajectories accurately far in advance, so it may be amendable to optimization.

Wonder if there's a paper somewhere that computed possible Δv requirements for a collector if you squeeze your flight plan very tight.

(Also in-orbit refueling will change this equation a lot. You could keep a bunch of such collectors continuously in space, and wait for the trash to align right. There's no hurry.)

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by sharpneli on Friday March 12, 2021 @05:07PM (#26441567)
Another thing some KSP mods gave an impression to me was how seemingly magical ideal encounters and transfer windows they could make.

Even though I couldn't make it myself by the usual orbit tools I also wouldn't be too surprised if it was possible to gather bunch of stuff with like < 100m/s delta v or whatnot.

KSP taught me that flying a rocket is "easy". But calculating the stuff is hard (well, computationally intensive. So it can be easy, but hard for humans in their head).

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Robotbeat on Saturday March 13, 2021 @12:38AM (#26444277)
Yeah. I think KSP stock makes building rockets seem way too easy and docking way too hard.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by maccard on Saturday March 13, 2021 @07:00AM (#26446005)
I thought so too at first, but after a couple of (dozen) hours, I came to appreciate it. The rocket building leaves for incredible variety, it means as a beginner you can strap a few engines to a cockpit and get to the Mun, without having an understanding of why, while at the same time needing to actually plan and calculate delta for longer missions. Similarly the docking is fiddly and hard at first, but once you've done it a few times, it's a (mostly) rote exercise.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by TeMPOraL on Saturday March 13, 2021 @11:19AM (#26447535)
Agreed. It's good to learn and do it a few times, because it teaches you a lot about how objects in orbit behave in relation to each other.

Docking itself has always been my favorite part, though I "cheat" by using a mod[0] that gives me a display[1] of relative velocities and orientations. My brain isn't designed to eyeball relative velocities from an outside-ship camera. But that's just the final part, applicable when you can literally see the target out of your window.

Approach, now that's another story. Took me a while to learn how to match orbits without carefully planning a series of maneuvers. My new way is slightly less Δv-efficient, but much faster in terms of both in-game and wall clock time. I plot a "good enough" intercept (say within 5-50km separation, relative velocity doesn't matter, as long as it's less than my remaining Δv), and then as my ship is a couple dozen to couple hundreds kilometers from the target, I start doing small adjustment burns to minimize distance at flyby and relative speed. The goal is to eventually reduce flyby separation and relative speed at intercept to something reasonable (say, flyby at 100 m, 10 m/s relative speed). From there, I can just dock easily.

It's not the way real docking happens today (though it's how it might in the future!), but I can execute a full intercept and docking in less than one orbit, which is more fun. Doubly fun to do this with transfers between celestial body - docking straight out of a transfer orbit, without first establishing a proper orbit around a moon/planet.

EDIT: Triply fun with planetary landers, if you don't have enough Δv to reach orbit, much less to transfer to a station/orbiter module. You launch the lander into ballistic trajectory that intersects your target's orbit at its peak, and pray you time it right, so that the orbiter/station can decelerate and do a suborbital docking, and then boost back to safety. One mistake here, and you can lose both ships. God, I love this game.

--

[0] - Docking Port Alignment Indicator.

[1] - https://i.imgur.com/J69AYEw.png. It looks trivial, but it packs enough information that you can easily dock looking only at that display. And something like this is what real astronauts would use, so it's actually making things more realistic :).

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by mlyle on Saturday March 13, 2021 @12:18PM (#26448009)
> , maybe a collector craft could approach and collect several targets on a low Δv budget? It's not something you could do manually, but space has also this nice property that you can predict trajectories accurately far in advance,

So, the issue is, in the low orbit environment there's no kinds of slingshot or other maneuvers available. You need to match height of the orbit at a point, and need to at least coarsely match velocity at that point, which means you're basically in the same orbit as the object. Sure, you can play games with slowly matching phase, etc, but the delta-v requirements are simply inherently high.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by gmueckl on Friday March 12, 2021 @04:34PM (#26441252)
Assuming you manage to grab a hold of debris without ripping off even tiny parts, how would you dispose of it? You'd need to deorbit it and you need a working engine for that. So a reusable collector doesn't seem like a plausible concept to me.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by sigstoat on Friday March 12, 2021 @06:34PM (#26442282)
> Assuming you manage to grab a hold of debris without ripping off even tiny parts, how would you dispose of it? You'd need to deorbit it and you need a working engine for that.

meet up with the debris, reorient yourself and the debris such that the debris is closer to the earth (reaction wheels, magnetic torquer bar and patience is all that's required), and then just mechanically kick it down (store up energy from the sun and then trigger a solenoid). the debris itself becomes your propulsion. you get a tiny boost up, perhaps towards your next target, and it gets a (admittedly!) tiny boost down.

obviously it doesn't instantly dispose of everything, but progressively pushing material further down the gravity well is the next best thing.

not claiming this would be cost effective.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Denvercoder9 on Friday March 12, 2021 @08:28PM (#26443065)
> then just mechanically kick it down (store up energy from the sun and then trigger a solenoid). the debris itself becomes your propulsion. you get a tiny boost up, perhaps towards your next target, and it gets a (admittedly!) tiny boost down

This doesn't actually work. If you push something down in orbit, you just make its orbit elliptical. After half an orbit it will be at the same altitude as you again, and after a full orbit it will hit you from the top. If you want to lower its orbit, you need to push it back.

Orbital mechanics is weird.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by craftinator on Friday March 12, 2021 @09:13PM (#26443280)
> This doesn't actually work. If you push something down in orbit, you just make its orbit elliptical.

Came here to say this as well! The only caveat to that I can think of is if you're already low enough in orbit, the push making the satellite's orbit elliptical could put it in a drag zone, and then air would do the slowing down for you.

Also, thank you Neal Stephenson for introducing me to the wonderful would of orbital mechanics via Seveneves!

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by shkkmo on Friday March 12, 2021 @11:38PM (#26443997)
For me, accidentally losing contact with the space ship during a Kerbal space walk taught me exactly how tricky manual orbital piloting is and inspired me to learn more.

The Kerbal never got back to his ship before running out of propellant.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by narism on Friday March 12, 2021 @09:19PM (#26443312)
Also plays a role in another of his books, Anathem.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by jniedrauer on Friday March 12, 2021 @09:51PM (#26443464)
But you could just kick it in the retrograde direction and to de-orbit it. In fact you could use centrifugal force and a cable to generate a significant amount of acceleration using reaction wheels powered by solar panels which would not consume any propellant.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by sigstoat on Friday March 12, 2021 @09:51PM (#26443463)
> If you want to lower its orbit, you need to push it back.

if you want to lower its orbit, you probably need to take a lot of complicated stuff in to account which doesn't fit into a comment. i won't charge the orbital dynamacists implementing my idea more if they replace "down" with "the optimal direction for this target, at the optimal moment".

mass of the target, cross sectional area of the target, any out gassing it might be doing, where we're trying to maneuver to next, etc, etc.

if the optimal direction ends up being exactly "down" or "back", i'll buy you a beer.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by shkkmo on Friday March 12, 2021 @11:16PM (#26443910)
As a general rule of thumb, the only way to decrease the energy of an orbit (what most people would consider to be "lowering the orbit"), is to apply acceleration in the opposite direction that the object is traveling.

You may be to do this with atospheric drag if you add enough ellipticity but they would only be lowering the orbit indirectly.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by sigstoat on Saturday March 13, 2021 @12:09AM (#26444148)
> would only be lowering the orbit indirectly.

you know, in the wildly hypothetical world where this was implemented, i don't think the folks cutting the check would mind if you deorbited things directly, or indirectly.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by ramses0 on Friday March 12, 2021 @06:51PM (#26442406)
Clever! A 'hopper' bot. Capacitor + Discardable Mass == Thrust.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by TeMPOraL on Friday March 12, 2021 @06:02PM (#26442026)
> Assuming you manage to grab a hold of debris without ripping off even tiny parts

There are some ideas that could be repurposed from asteroid mining concepts. Many asteroids are more like pile of gravel loosely bound by gravity than solid rocks, and either way, trying to extract anything risk launching lots of tiny pebbles in a random directions. One idea I saw floating around NASA website was to wrap such an asteroid in a net or sheet of material, to keep it from shaking itself apart. I could imagine similar lightweight net being used to wrap a satellite.

Once wrapped, you can do two things with it. You can try to deorbit captured trash - for instance, with a light net and a solar sail attached (which would be used to increase atmospheric drag). Such trash would not only deorbit faster, but a sail would make it easier to track. Nets and sails would have to be light and disposable, they could be shipped to orbit in bulk, or (later) manufactured in space.

Alternatively, you can try to recycle the trash. If you have in-orbit refueling using propellant sourced from space, you probably already have - or are about to have - some facility in orbit that could reprocess parts of dead satellites. So you can move the trash to some designated recycling orbit.

--

Now that I think of it, you could probably make a recycling collector work without all the infrastructure in space. In orbit, you have time, you can take things slow. I can imagine a collector chasing light trash using ion thrusters, or whatever is most promising in high-Isp department these days (how small can a VASIMR get anyway?), grabbing it and parking at the recycling orbit. Might take weeks per piece of trash, but if you launch a bunch of such collectors and feed them trajectories from the ground, they'll eventually clean the orbit out of light trash. It might require some actual developments in the beamed power department, and perhaps launching a power satellite to microwave some electricity to the collectors, but think it would work in (sufficiently modded) KSP :). Anyway, the biggest problem isn't mission design, but figuring out who will actually pay for this.

Not sure what to do about the most dangerous space trash - the tiny bits that can't be reliably tracked. Track them better and vaporize with lasers?

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by morlockabove on Friday March 12, 2021 @07:32PM (#26442698)
'Laser brooms' are one idea. I think you still have to be able to resolve the debris, but the idea is to end up causing assymetric light-induced thrust on the debris, deorbiting it faster (by heating the prograde side).

Another very 'interesting' idea is deploying a large amount of fine dust on an appropriate polar orbit. Everything intersecting that orbit will be sandblasted, increasing drag; this will have the greatest effect on the smallest debris, and hopefully anything operational in that orbit will be well enough armored or able to dodge the cloud. The dust deorbits quickly for the same reason as the tiny debris (greater surface area/volume). One of the more metal ideas for space debros handling I've heard.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by dredmorbius on Friday March 12, 2021 @05:47PM (#26441901)
There are some interesting ways of adding drag to objects.

Increasing surface area will (eventually) de-orbit due to drag.

The wire methods mentioned earlier could possibly offer the option for magnetic / induction drag.

Ion engines are an option, though they're spendy.

Geosync orbit is the tough one. It's much larger, but the sweet spots (equatorial orbits) are relatively scarce.

Mandating methods of clearing critical orbits (for GEO) or deorbiting (for LEO) implemented prior to deployment is probably the more viable option.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by m4rtink on Saturday March 13, 2021 @12:14AM (#26444174)
Thankfully GEO is still a bit self cleaning as Sun and Moon influence makes it unstable - you can clearly see it in orbital debris models, there is a blurry plane shifted ring around the primary GEO stripe.

Still that will only prevent a dead sat in sitting in a valuable spot for ever, it migh still drift the wrong way and require active sats to do avoidance maneuvers, not to mention the chance of two inactive sats colliding.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by gmueckl on Saturday March 13, 2021 @08:29AM (#26446414)
Self-disposing satellites are a good idea, but it's not perfect. If the control unit or the engines of the satelite fail too early during the satellite's life span, the thing will simply stick around.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by dredmorbius on Saturday March 13, 2021 @11:16AM (#26447521)
Right. And this actually is rocket surgery.

There's also the problem of retaining propellants over long periods without experiencing some negative consequence (detonation, unintended firing, volatilisation, etc).

But in general, minimising the special-handling cases would be an improvement.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by TeMPOraL on Saturday March 13, 2021 @11:42AM (#26447712)
Long-term propellant issue could probably be solved by using a cold-gas thruster with a non-reactive propellant - basically a pressurized gas tank welded to a valve and a nozzle. It should have enough Δv to push you into a graveyard orbit, or even deorbit straight from GEO (though that's probably dangerous, and I imagine you could see spectacular fireworks from the ground, as the satellite would be hitting the atmosphere with a couple km/s more velocity than it's typical).
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by dredmorbius on Sunday March 14, 2021 @07:57PM (#26460871)
Solid thrusters being another possibility.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by m4rtink on Friday March 12, 2021 @11:59PM (#26444100)
You could attach a simple lightweight drag sail or a Echo style very low pressure balloon. That can increase drag of the thing by orders of magnitude and get it down fast while you tug goes for the next target or returns for refueling or restocking.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by tomc1985 on Friday March 12, 2021 @04:51PM (#26441407)
Could an astronaut grab a smaller satellite and simply chuck it towards the sun? Would it have enough velocity break out of earth orbit or would it just get stuck in some really large, wide, graveyard orbit?

If not the sun then maybe the earth?

That would be a fun spacewalk.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by AngryData on Friday March 12, 2021 @06:35PM (#26442283)
To fall into the sun you would have to negate most of Earth's orbital speed which is about 29.8 kilometers per second. To escape the solar system you need about 42.1 km/s of speed. It actually takes less energy to yeet yourself out of the solar system from Earth than to fall down into the sun. If you threw an object from Earth's orbit along Earth's orbital path an extra 12.3km/s that object would be going 42.1 km/s and eventually but barely leave our solar system.

Unfortunately throwing things at kilometers per second by hand is not possible, 1 km/s is just under 2237 mph.

Of course with atmospheric drag for most low orbit satellites things will come down eventually, in which case throwing something the right way could add or subtract from the time it will stay in orbit, but that would be highly dependent on where you started. And LEO is already like 7.2 km/s or about 16,000 mph. Standing on a massive enough satellite using a large stick or like a sling staff would certainly help you get more speed in your throw though. A 100 mph baseball throw really wouldn't be that significant though.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by JshWright on Friday March 12, 2021 @05:26PM (#26441721)
It takes a "huge" amount of energy to get something to the sun.

Something in earth orbit is also orbiting the Sun. The Earth is traveling ~30km/second around the Sun. If you want to fall into the sun, you have to cancel out all that sideways speed.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by mumblemumble on Friday March 12, 2021 @05:46PM (#26441895)
Another fun thing I didn't really understand all that clearly until I spent time playing KSP: Why it's theoretically easier to get to the Sun from Pluto than it is to do so from here.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by TeMPOraL on Friday March 12, 2021 @06:12PM (#26442098)
Related: my mind was blown when I realize how easy it is to fall down to Earth (well, Kerbin) if you're in high enough orbit. I've had cases where my orbital velocity was on the order of 200 m/s, which means that at apoapsis you can just fart, and have the satellite crash into the ground a day later.

(I've also had my fair share of high-orbit missions where in the middle of the launch I realized I'm aiming for a prograde orbit, where the contract specified retrograde. Instead of reloading game from launchpad, I just carried on, put my apoapsis at target altitude, and once reaching it, burned off couple hundred m/s of Δv to reverse the orbit's direction.)

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by tomc1985 on Friday March 12, 2021 @08:08PM (#26442956)
The point isn't really for it to fall into the sun, just to push it to some kind of orbit that is irrelevant to the space junk problem.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by rocqua on Saturday March 13, 2021 @03:24AM (#26444991)
Orbits are periodical. Anything you throw at the sun will come back up to the same height soon enough.

(Ignoring smaller effects)

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by dmoy on Friday March 12, 2021 @05:16PM (#26441631)
It would be difficult for an astronaut to chuck an object with over 32,000m/s of delta-v.

For comparison, the fastest bullets go like ~1,500m/s, and they are very very very small.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by tomc1985 on Friday March 12, 2021 @08:11PM (#26442979)
If I chuck a baseball out of an airplane I don't have to worry about accelerating the baseball to the airplane's speed, as I am also traveling at that speed.

Similarly, if a satellite is light enough in low-G to grab and manipulate from a craft that has straddled up along side it, would a single astronaut have enough strength to use his arms to put a satellite on a path that is effectively out of the way? Or could they just chuck it back at the earth so it can burn up on reentry?

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by TeMPOraL on Saturday March 13, 2021 @11:51AM (#26447795)
> If I chuck a baseball out of an airplane I don't have to worry about accelerating the baseball to the airplane's speed, as I am also traveling at that speed.

But the speed of the baseball you just thrown out will be (ignoring air friction) that of the airplane +/- 40 m/s, assuming you're some super strong thrower.

> if a satellite is light enough in low-G

Microgravity doesn't mean the satellite is light now. It still has the same mass, it's just that you're both in free fall, so it doesn't pull away from you. For the purpose of throwing it, the satellite is just as hard to throw as it would be on the surface of Earth.

But even assuming it weighs as much as a fastball, when you throw it super hard, you'll change its velocity by... 40 m/s at best. Compare that with the orbital speed, which is many kilometers per second (e.g. about 7.6 km/s if you're on ISS). So e.g. instead of going 7.6 km/s, the thrown satellite now goes... 7.56 km/s. Which translates to one end of the orbit dropping by a couple hundred meters. So instead of 408km, it'll now go as low as... 407.5km, or something in that ballpark.

That's the limit of what you can achieve by just tossing things with muscle power.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by dmoy on Friday March 12, 2021 @08:16PM (#26442999)
edit: it's 24k, not 32k, I had the wrong number initially

edit2: actually now I'm not so sure, I might have had the right number initially. It's either 24k or 32k. Either way it's impractical.

24,000m/s is the difference in speed that the astronaut is already traveling with the speed necessary to get to the sun

Getting to the sun is really hard.

Chucking it back into the atmosphere is much easier, but GP was asking about throwing things into the sun.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by darkwizard42 on Friday March 12, 2021 @07:01PM (#26442468)
I think the goal would be to first accelerate the astronaut to that level of velocity and then relatively adjusting its trajectory isn't so difficult. But, that is just my understanding that speed is relative (especially in space with no drag)
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by morlockabove on Friday March 12, 2021 @07:48PM (#26442809)
Speed is also extremely expensive due to the rocket equation- changing your velocity, that is.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by dmoy on Friday March 12, 2021 @08:17PM (#26443004)
It would surely be easier to accelerate space trash into the sun than it would be to accelerate both the astronaut and space trash into the sun.

I don't think we should do either of those, but less mass is always easier to speed up.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by DavidSJ on Friday March 12, 2021 @05:06PM (#26441560)
The ∆v to escape Earth orbit is generally quite large, and it's far, far greater still to collide with the Sun (though this wouldn't normally be considered necessary).

In comparison, a deorbit burn is usually relatively inexpensive.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by taejo on Friday March 12, 2021 @05:12PM (#26441609)
From low Earth orbit, delta-v to Earth and to escape the solar system are about the same. Delta-v to fall into the sun is two orders of magnitude bigger.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by labawi on Saturday March 13, 2021 @07:58AM (#26446251)
Directly. Not if you take it the long way - near escape to reduce orbital speed, a little push to cancel the rest, and you will fall directly into the Sun (with a high velocity).
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by lambda_obrien on Friday March 12, 2021 @04:57PM (#26441474)
Shoot it with a dart that has a really long wire attached to it, then release the wire to drag in atmosphere, so the satellite is slowly pulled down?
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by CompuHacker on Friday March 12, 2021 @05:11PM (#26441595)
You can attach a wire to an object in Earth orbit and use the magnetic field of the Earth to change that object's orbit over time, as well.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by lambda_obrien on Friday March 12, 2021 @05:43PM (#26441863)
That's an interesting idea, I wonder if you would need a loop or a winding method to get enough counter-emf?
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by morlockabove on Saturday March 13, 2021 @05:18AM (#26445532)
There are at least some proposals that use ionised particles in the earth's upper atmosphere as a conductive elements, meaning you don't need a loop as such- just a wire pointing towards the earth with a big metal ball on the end. Lorentz force means you can accelerate prograde or retrograde.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by lambda_obrien on Saturday March 13, 2021 @09:19PM (#26452181)
I find it fascinating to use the natural things you have available as a motive force, and it's really cool to think all you might need is a few bits of conductor and the earth's own relatively static magnetic field to move a satellite around.

I wish humans were less interested in the noisy, explosive things like engines and rockets, and more into subtlety.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by SyzygistSix on Saturday March 13, 2021 @10:19AM (#26447125)
Why does it need to be deorbited? Why is collected and held not effective?
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Apofis on Saturday March 13, 2021 @02:06PM (#26449010)
Oh it's entirely possible.

    Space Infrastructure Servicing (SIS) is a spacecraft being developed by Canadian aerospace firm MDA to operate as a small-scale in-space refueling depot for communication satellites in geosynchronous orbit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Infrastructure_Servicing

and also

    OSAM-1 (short for On-orbit Servicing, Assembly, and Manufacturing 1), a robotic spacecraft equipped with the tools, technologies and techniques needed to extend satellites' lifespans - even if they were not designed to be serviced on orbit.

    During its mission, the OSAM-1 servicer will rendezvous with, grasp, refuel and relocate a government-owned satellite to extend its life. But OSAM-1's effect will not end there.

    The benefits are many. OSAM-1’s capabilities can give satellite operators new ways to manage their fleets more efficiently, and derive more value from their initial investment. These capabilities could even help mitigate the looming problem of orbital debris.
https://nexis.gsfc.nasa.gov/OSAM-1.html
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Fordec on Friday March 12, 2021 @03:57PM (#26440817)
Yeah, I'm not at all convinced of the garbage man satellite idea. The Delta-V calculations only make sense if the craft is very big. And all the very big ones are in GEO, not LEO, where it's even harder to achieve.

Lasers that act as a long term external pressure for small stuff, maybe. But the laser strength, object tracking and object targeting tech still has a long long way to go before that is viable.

Reduce, reuse, recycle. In that order. We need to start applying it to space too. The most viable path to reducing space debris right now is not creating it in the first place. Through reusable rockets, miniaturization, and removing mechanisms that give off less debris during operation like stopping the use of explosive bolts or reducing the need for protective coverings. Lowering the regulated maximum 25 year lifespan of a satellite further would also be an option.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by stingrae on Friday March 12, 2021 @05:16PM (#26441634)
If you plan for it can and has been done though at least for a single satellite. The Space shuttle serviced Hubble several times https://hubblesite.org/mission-and-telescope/servicing-missi...
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by ericbarrett on Friday March 12, 2021 @05:28PM (#26441743)
The issue isn't launching to intercept a body in orbit, though—in those missions, the shuttle was launched at the Hubble. Just that wandering between orbits to "collect" debris and satellites en masse is not really feasible with rockets as we know and build them.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by m4rtink on Friday March 12, 2021 @11:55PM (#26444081)
Depends if you cann make the economic (material reuse in orbit) or safety case (eliminate collision risk) there a couple thing that can be done for an Earth-like planet (lots of sunlight + atmosphere) to make itbwork:

- setup orbital refueling of your tug - if you have enough time, let the tug drift by gravity anomaly and sun influence as optimal - use electric engines as much as possible to reduce fuel mass needed - make the thing aerodynamic enough to enable aerobraking or even orbit plane changes - add tethers for even more momentum transfer magic

These tricks could make the proposition of capturing and reusing dead satellite much more viable when applied. :)

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by saalweachter on Saturday March 13, 2021 @07:48AM (#26446208)
The material reuse intrigues me.

De-orbiting satellites -- while necessary for well-discussed reasons -- seems wasteful. You spent umpteen million dollars getting that mass into orbit, and you're just going to drop it?

It's kind of like the plans to throw nuclear waste into the Sun, or more realistically into a deep ocean subduction zone -- isotopes that heavy or unstable are rare, do you know how much work it is to find them?

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by m4rtink on Sunday March 14, 2021 @12:21AM (#26453007)
Right? Today's waste is very often a future treasure in these cases!
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Aperocky on Friday March 12, 2021 @08:03PM (#26442921)
rendezvous is quite easy. Just needs deltaV.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by filereaper on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:23PM (#26439757)
I imagined deploying a net of some sort to get close but not extremely close.

But I guess the high velocities mean you need a really strong and light net and the rapid deceleration might damage the satellite anyway.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by simonh on Friday March 12, 2021 @03:00PM (#26440211)
Rifle bullet speed is a relatively small delta for orbiting craft, it goes up quite a few orders of magnitude from that. Pretty much anything you encounter that you didn't specifically try very hard to match orbits with is going to blast right through a net.

There were studies on using the Shuttle to repair satellites, but aside from the maintenance mission on Hubble those plans were shelved. The cost of a new satellite was generally a lot less than the cost of a shuttle mission dedicated to repairing it, and it would often need to be dedicated due to the requirement to match orbits.

Even if the ISS released a smallsat, which it does from time to time, that doesn't help you. By the time you need to do maintenance on it, the cubesat will have dropped into a much lower orbit due to upper atmosphere effects.

The safest, and practically perhaps the only viable way for the ISS to do maintenance on orbital instruments is if they stay attached to the ISS.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by bzbarsky on Friday March 12, 2021 @03:55PM (#26440787)
> it goes up quite a few orders of magnitude from that

Sorry to be pedantic, but modern rifle muzzle velocities are in the 1.2km/s range. Escape velocity in LEO is 11.2km/s, so your maximal closing speed is ~22.4kms. Which is maybe 1.3 orders of magnitude difference, not "quite a few". Orders of magnitude are big.

For the rest, you are right of course: we're talking closing speeds that can easily be one order of magnitude higher than rifle bullets (or armor-piercing tank projectiles, for that matter; those are at 1.7km/s or so).

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by db48x on Friday March 12, 2021 @04:45PM (#26441364)
What matters in a collision isn't velocity, it's momentum. Momentum is ½mv². There's a lot of orders of magnitude just in the mass, but the velocities add up a lot faster than you'd think too. I'd say there's around 10 orders of magnitude between the momentum of a rifle bullet and the momentum of a communications satellite at escape velocity.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Denvercoder9 on Friday March 12, 2021 @08:48PM (#26443161)
> I'd say there's around 10 orders of magnitude between the momentum of a rifle bullet and the momentum of a communications satellite at escape velocity.

That's quite an overestimation.

Let's be generous and say a rifle bullet is 50 gram (0.05 kg) and fires at 1.1 km/s, and a communication satellite weighs 5 metric tonne (5000 kg) and escape velocity is 11 km/s. We have 5 orders of magnitude difference in mass and 1 in velocity. As momentum is m*v, total difference is 6 orders of magnitude. Kinetic energy is 1/2*m*v^2, so that gives 7 orders of magnitude difference.*

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by db48x on Saturday March 13, 2021 @05:01AM (#26445458)
I’m not so sure that it is.

The mass of a bullet is more like 5 grams, and the mass of a satellite could be around 500,000 kg (the ISS). A quick search shows the the largest commercial communications satellite is Telstar 19V, with a mass of 7,076kg; in my first estimate I guessed 50,000kg. Finally, the closing velocity of two objects in orbit could be up to 22.4 km/s.

rifle bullet: 3×10³ J

Telstar 19V, geostationary orbit: 3.3×10¹⁰ J

Telstar 19V, geostationary transfer orbit: 3.5×10¹¹ J

ISS, LEO: 1.2×10¹³ J

hypothetical fast ISS: 1.1×10¹⁴ J

14−3 gives 11 orders of magnitude, but good luck making the ISS go that fast. Also, don’t forget to add in the kinetic energy of the net; it’s not going to be zero.

Still, even 7 orders of magnitude qualifies as ”quite a few”. You don’t need very many orders of magnitude before you have too many.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by stopChanging on Saturday March 13, 2021 @11:12PM (#26452746)
I mean you stretched the numbers as much as possible (garbage collecting the ISS? LOL!) and you still didn't get there.

And anyway, none of this matters, because the relevant OP specifically said "speed".

So the plain and obvious conclusion is: False.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Denvercoder9 on Saturday March 13, 2021 @07:28AM (#26446120)
The ISS is not a communications satellite, escape velocity is lower than maximum closing velocity, and kinetic energy isn't momentum.

Of course you can make the statement true by changing everything it's about.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by db48x on Saturday March 13, 2021 @12:26PM (#26448091)
Forgive me for contradicting you, but I didn’t change anything; I just typed momentum when I meant energy. I first thought of the formula, not the name, and then typed the wrong name. I'm not sure how I made such a mistake, but mea culpa. Also my old friend bzbarsky mentioned closing velocity, and I stuck with it when I made my estimate.

I do agree that the ISS is not usually considered to be a communications satellite (though it does have plenty of communications gear on board, including a ham radio repeater if I recall correctly). But it is a thing that we might want to deorbit one day. Since we were considering the ridiculous closing velocity of two objects that are both on escape trajectories, I figure using the ridiculous mass of the ISS was fair game too. But like I said, I originally guessed 50t, not 400t. I was thinking more about the payload capacities of launch vehicles than the satellites themselves.

Whatever mass and closing velocity you consider, 7 or 10 or 11 orders of magnitude all qualify as “quite a few” even if the velocity itself only has 1.3 orders of magnitude of difference.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by AceyMan on Friday March 12, 2021 @07:41PM (#26442758)
*Momentum* is m•v

Kinetic energy is ½m•v².

#ftfy

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by db48x on Saturday March 13, 2021 @04:28AM (#26445266)
Ouch, how did I make that mistake?
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by sigstoat on Friday March 12, 2021 @06:41PM (#26442342)
> Sorry to be pedantic, but modern rifle muzzle velocities are in the 1.2km/s range

what caliber do you have in mind for that?

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by bzbarsky on Saturday March 13, 2021 @11:31AM (#26447626)
Good point. The source I was looking at was talking about .22 caliber rounds. I looked around some more, and that seems to be the general range in which you can achieve those velocities, though that can include discarding sabot versions of 7.62x51mm ammunition (with the projectile ending up 5.56mm or smaller).
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by dheera on Friday March 12, 2021 @04:24PM (#26441134)
I guess it depends if you operate in base 2 or base 10.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by hinoki on Friday March 12, 2021 @05:03PM (#26441539)
Naturally, you should use base e, which gives about 3 orders of magnitude.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by dheera on Friday March 12, 2021 @04:27PM (#26441174)
> Pretty much anything you encounter that you didn't specifically try very hard to match orbits with is going to blast right through a net.

If a zombie satellite needed to be decomissioned, could it be shot down and left for the pieces to disintergrate in the atmosphere instead?

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by jamiek88 on Friday March 12, 2021 @04:37PM (#26441288)
Yes but then instead of one trackable, piece of junk you have many small pieces some too small to track.

In fact the Chinese satellite destruction test in 2007 was a very good example of this:

“ Anti-satellite missile tests, especially ones involving kinetic kill vehicles as in this case, contribute to the formation of orbital space debris which can remain in orbit for many years and could interfere with future space activity (Kessler syndrome).[7] This event was the second largest creation of space debris in history after Project West Ford, with more than 2,000 pieces of trackable size (golf ball size and larger) officially catalogued in the immediate aftermath, and an estimated 150,000 debris particles.[24][25] As of October 2016, a total of 3,438 pieces of debris had been detected, with 571 decayed and 2,867 still in orbit nine years after the incident.[26]

More than half of the tracked debris orbits the Earth with a mean altitude above 850 kilometres (530 mi), so they would likely remain in orbit for decades or centuries.[27] Based on 2009 and 2013 calculations of solar flux, the NASA Orbital Debris Program Office estimated that around 30% of the larger-than-10-centimeter (3.9 in) debris would still be in orbit in 2035.[28]

In April 2011, debris from the Chinese test passed 6 kilometres (3.7 mi) away from the International Space Station.[29]

As of April 2019, 3000 of the 10,000 pieces of space debris routinely tracked by the US Military as a threat to the International Space Station were known to have originated from the 2007 satellite shoot down.[30]”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_anti-satellite_mi...

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by dheera on Friday March 12, 2021 @06:12PM (#26442101)
I see. What about a huge orbiting ball of butter* with thrusters that just slowly changes its orbit and sweeps all the trash by getting the trash embedded in itself?

* not actual butter, but you get the idea, some polymer, or maybe aerogel?

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Arrath on Friday March 12, 2021 @07:51PM (#26442823)
Relative velocities are just a huge problem. Unless the object and the catching item are moving near the same speed, chances are the debris will just punch through the item meant to catch it and keep trucking (and maybe make more debris in the process)
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by csunbird on Saturday March 13, 2021 @07:18AM (#26446081)
Space is huge. You probably would need a very, very large sweeper to collect anything.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Arubis on Friday March 12, 2021 @04:37PM (#26441287)
If the zombie sat in question is in a _very_ low orbit, this can be a reasonable approach, because the atmospheric drag can pull the pieces down faster than would've occurred on an intact satellite.

Otherwise, you risk just creating more high-v debris. At the extreme end of this, you could trigger the Kessler Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome) and make orbit practically unusable.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by jiofih on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:45PM (#26440052)
The ISS orbits at 400km altitude and 27000km/h, while many small satellites will orbit lower - I suppose this is what makes it possible to “drop” a non-propulsive satellite from the ISS like the one in the article.

As their orbit decays, they would actually need tons of fuel to accelerate and raise their orbit to reach the station, it’s totally impractical.

EDIT: not geostationary

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by hnuser123456 on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:52PM (#26440135)
Geostationary orbits are much higher altitude to achieve lower orbit speeds. Gravity is stronger closer to the surface. But they'd still need a lot of fuel to slow down, to drop lower to the ISS' orbit, and then they'd be on an elliptical, and need even more to circularize and rendezvous.

edit: I'm the third one to say this in a span of a minute, sorry.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by viklove on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:50PM (#26440102)
That doesn't make any sense. If you want to orbit at a lower speed, you need to increase your altitude. Geostationary orbit is at 35,000+ km, while the ISS orbits at ~400 km.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by gpav on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:57PM (#26440185)
Instead of geostationary, I think you mean low earth orbit (LEO). There is a link to the Wikipedia article on LEO in an adjacent comment. A circular geostationary orbit is at an altitude of 22,236 miles/35,786 kilometers.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by madpata on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:51PM (#26440120)
Don't you mean much higher? Like at 36MM/36,000km?
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by baby on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:35PM (#26439920)
Leo?
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by filereaper on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:36PM (#26439930)
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Animats on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:29PM (#26439844)
This is the first I've heard if the ISS holding onto satellites, I thought satellites are deployed by the launch rocket and just put into orbit.

It's a commercial service, from Nanoracks.[1] They load cubesats into a container, have them shipped to the ISS, and the satellites are "launched" with a spring. So they're in roughly the same orbit as the ISS.

The price just went way up. NASA raised their price on transport to the Space Station from $3,000 per kilogram to $20,000 per kilogram. They also raised the astronaut labor rate to $130,000/hour. NASA was subsidizing the ISS launch scheme. So future cubesats will probably be launched from a Falcon 9 using one of Space-X's resellers.

[1] https://nanoracks.com/products/iss-deployment/

[2] http://parabolicarc.com/2021/03/05/nasa-jacks-up-iss-commerc...

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Defenestresque on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:49PM (#26440090)
Interesting article. As you mentioned, NASA is justifying the >6x price increase with:

>In announcing the policy change, NASA said it had previously subsidized transportation to and from the station in order to foster the development of commercial space applications.

>“Since making these opportunities available, there has been a growing demand for commercial and marketing activities from both traditional aerospace companies and from novel industries, demonstrating the benefits of the space station to help catalyze and expand space exploration markets and the low-Earth orbit economy,” the space agency said. “As a result, NASA has updated its pricing policy for commercial activities conducted on the station to reflect full reimbursement for the value of NASA resources.”

While I don't have any reason not to take this explanation at face value, I am curious about the timing. Did they just have too many potential customers to justify subsidizing the cost?

I was also surprised to see a "trash disposal" line item in the price catalog. It doesn't sound like ISS-generated waste. Does anyone know if this is literally people paying thousands of dollars per kg to transport cargo to space in order to dispose it by burning it up on re-entry? What could justify such a cost? Are there examples? What kind of restrictions on items are there?

(Perhaps I should just Google this myself! :)

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Goronmon on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:59PM (#26440204)
While I don't have any reason not to take this explanation at face value, I am curious about the timing. Did they just have too many potential customers to justify subsidizing the cost?

That, or from a different perspective, as commercial launch capabilities increase, they don't want to kill competition by subsidizing a service that other companies want to be able to offer (at a non-subsidized cost).

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by NortySpock on Friday March 12, 2021 @03:29PM (#26440497)
All trash (food wrappers, paper, packaging, some medical waste I presume, old experiment gear, etc), and dehydrated sewage, currently only leaves the space station via visiting vessels. It requires an astronaut's time to pack trash, disconnect and seal dehydrated sewage containers, and load them into a visiting spacecraft prior to departure.

Imagine having trash and sewage picked up only twice a month or once a month. That's about how often new vehicles visit the space station.

Some uncrewed vehicles (Russia's Roscosmos Progress vehicle, Japan's JAXA HTV, USA's Northrop Grumman Cygnus) are designed to burn up on reentry. SpaceX Dragon is designed to make it to the ground and thus would need to be unpacked after splashdown.

Nanoracks' Bishop airlock is supposed to offer trash disposal-to-orbit, but has not been used in orbit yet.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Voloskaya on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:11PM (#26439626)
It's fairly common nowadays. Companies like Nanoracks [1] specialize in this. Obviously this can only be done for cubesats.

They are put into orbit simply by being ejected at the right angle and speed from the ISS.

[1]: https://nanoracks.com/products/iss-deployment/

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by filereaper on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:28PM (#26439838)
Wow, this is super interesting.

I didn't realize launching satellites had become so turnkey now where you don't have all the friction of dealing with NASA or any large space agency.

Nanoracks has an interesting list of customers, like Adidas and Double-Tree by Hilton?!

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Rebelgecko on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:41PM (#26440004)
Nanoracks does commercial things on the ISS other than cubesat launches. IIRC the Doubletree thing was they sent up an oven and had an astronaut bake cookies using their recipe
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by GordonS on Friday March 12, 2021 @07:25PM (#26442649)
Part of me is impressed by the economics of it (I had no idea such things were so affordable), and the rest of me is embarrassed by the almost flippant use of space tech...
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by simonh on Friday March 12, 2021 @07:33PM (#26442701)
I think Astronauts deserve the occasional freshly baked cookie too. Food preparation in space is arguably a serious business.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by nickik on Friday March 12, 2021 @03:16PM (#26440365)
Checkout out: https://www.spacex.com/rideshare/

Probably the cheapest way to launch things. However, SpaceX has no interest in dealing with everybody that wants to launch a cubsat so you have to go to an integrator.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by rtkwe on Friday March 12, 2021 @08:51PM (#26443175)
> This is the first I've heard if the ISS holding onto satellites, I thought satellites are deployed by the launch rocket and just put into orbit.

Sometimes CubeSats will launch as ride-alongs on the rocket itself (it's more common on rockets not already going to the ISS) and others are designed to be launched from the ISS itself depending on how they're being paid for. In either case they'll wind up in the roughly 51 degree inclination of the ISS.

> Can we go the other way and use the ISS as like an orbital garage to capture and fix satellites?

They can't really capture satellites because very few actually orbit at that level it's mostly the kind of short term cube sats that they launch out not larger satellites. Those live in higher orbits so getting to them to fix is not a small task. Another big hurdle is the orbital inclination changing that is extremely expensive to do, basically everything is placed into it's final orbital inclination at launch because of the fuel requirements to change it once you're in orbit. It's why the ISS is at such a high inclination to begin with, so that it's easier to get to from Baikonur where Russia launches it's vehicles from.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by resist_futility on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:12PM (#26439639)
Looks like they are launched from a specialty module on the ISS with only a spring https://iss.jaxa.jp/en/kiboexp/jssod/
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by nickik on Friday March 12, 2021 @03:17PM (#26440381)
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by mcountryman on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:09PM (#26439601)
I had to picture someone opening a window and throwing it into orbit haha
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Steltek on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:26PM (#26439810)
It's actually pretty cool. They have a space torpedo launcher:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanoracks_CubeSat_Deployer#/me...

What I haven't figured out is how they get the sats far enough away from the ISS orbit with only one push.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by dylan604 on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:37PM (#26439951)
Relativity. At the moments before launch, the ISS and satellite are moving at the same speed. The launch gives extra velocity (positive delta-v??) which ever so slightly due to mass differences gives a tiny push against the ISS. So the satellite continues to pull away with its increase in velocity. See Newton's first law of motion.

However, after launch, the small satellite usually has no ability to course correct, and its orbit slowly decays to friction with the thin atmosphere. Meanwhile, ISS continues to course correct.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by pilsetnieks on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:58PM (#26440195)
A minor nitpick but it's not relativity (as in Einstein's relativity,) it's just relative velocity.

The launch imparts velocity on the satellite but that velocity difference doesn't mean it flies in formation with the ISS a few hundred meters or a few kilometers apart. If they were launched in the direction the ISS is going (positive delta-v), that extra velocity means a higher orbit; if they're launched backwards (negative delta-v), it'll be a lower orbit. If it's launched sideways, it's either higher, lower, or same depending on delta-v but a different inclination (angle to the equator.) I couldn't quickly find where exactly the deployer is located but I'm guessing it's aft because it's the same module the ISS launches it's trash out of now (the Bishop airlock,) and I'm guessing they wouldn't launch anything in a fast decaying slightly higher orbit just to get hit by it a few cycles later.

The whole thing it's pretty cool, and it's quite new, it was installed only 3 months ago.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by heavenlyblue on Friday March 12, 2021 @05:31PM (#26441779)
Wouldn’t sideways launch give an orbit that sometimes overlap with the original orbit or is there some maths that makes sure that never happens?
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by pilsetnieks on Friday March 12, 2021 @06:08PM (#26442062)
Yes, twice every cycle, just at an angle, assuming all other orbital parameters remain the same. That's also why no one sane would ever do it.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by dylan604 on Friday March 12, 2021 @06:37PM (#26442306)
Are we assuming that the satellite is going to stay in the same orbit? The atmo drag will constantly be applying pressure on the cubesat so that its orbit will always being decaying.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by pilsetnieks on Friday March 12, 2021 @07:12PM (#26442545)
I don't think atmospheric drag at 400km is large enough to decay the orbit by half the vertical height of the ISS in half a cycle, though. The ISS itself with it's comparatively huge surface area does orbital reboosts only about once a month or so.[1] Also, my original comment was quite simplistic - a launch with a negative delta-v with no other course correction would result in an elliptic orbit with the same apogee but a lower perigee (and the other way around with a positive delta-v.) Orbits are tricky that way.

[1] https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/9087/how-often-doe...

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by saalweachter on Saturday March 13, 2021 @08:04AM (#26446280)
I assume the two confounding factors are (a) the satellite should be moving relative to the ISS at the speed it was launched, so it is going to take a while to come back around and (b) when it does come back around, it should only be going as fast as you launched it, so it shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as the typical orbital collision.

[Huh, if the cubesats are launched at 90 mph from the ISS (the speed of a fastball), it only takes ~12 days for them to come back around; that's quite a bit faster than I would have guessed, but still probably long enough for orbital decay and ISS adjustments to put them out of line.]

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by Steltek on Friday March 12, 2021 @03:40PM (#26440624)
My understanding is that a transfer orbit requires two thrusts and otherwise, with only one push, all you've done is make for an eccentric orbit that still intersects your original one.

Again, I'm ignorant of these things but it seems like depending on atmospheric drag to provide for the additional correction is risking a lot.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by TeMPOraL on Friday March 12, 2021 @06:33PM (#26442267)
It is, but the intersection point doesn't track the station. When you push an object retrograde (i.e. throw it out the back), two important things happen. One, you make it spend more time closer to Earth than it was spending before, meaning extra drag, which lowers that orbit's closest point to your orbit, ever so slightly. Two, objects in lower orbits move faster, contributing to drag, but more importantly, meaning that once you do one full orbit, the object will be somewhere else. It may still roughly intersect your orbit, but you won't be there when it does. Combining these two factors, you can give your object enough of a push that the two orbits stop intersecting before there's any risk of collision.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by pilsetnieks on Friday March 12, 2021 @06:21PM (#26442166)
The eccentric orbit is the transfer orbit but yes, you need two thrusts to go from one circular orbit to another.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by bagels on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:35PM (#26439926)
If you give it a few cm/s velocity, the separation distance grows over time.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by enriquto on Saturday March 13, 2021 @05:11AM (#26445501)
> What I haven't figured out is how they get the sats far enough away from the ISS orbit with only one push.

What I don't understand here is how do they avoid the satellite hitting back the ISS? Once they are separated and non-propulsed, both orbits are elliptical with at least one point of intersection, and stay like that forever. If they have different period, it seems that the ISS and the cubesat might become arbitrarily closer in the future.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by genera1 on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:28PM (#26439832)
There are even manual deployments https://youtu.be/-hutA7In7GA
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by genera1 on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:14PM (#26439653)
It's not that far off from the truth
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by dylan604 on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:28PM (#26439826)
Great, so they're essentially littering. I hope the Space Force Police pull them over to issue a citation. At least, this will burn up in the atmo rather than in a water system, or do they turn themselves into microparticles ultimately landing in the oceans? They really are litter
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by bagels on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:36PM (#26439933)
It's low orbit ~400km, the lifetime of these things is measured in weeks or months.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by jerf on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:38PM (#26439957)
And the Earth picks up about 40,000 tons of space dust per year.

We've got a lot of work to do before our space "littering" can even dream of matching that level... and that's just a coincidental level that nature happens to have, not some sort of threshold for "real harm", which I'd guess to be multiple orders of magnitude higher.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by dylan604 on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:38PM (#26439959)
So do McDonalds wrappers is my point.
Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by stetrain on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:26PM (#26439797)
This really only works if your satellite is very small and you are okay with being in roughly the same orbit as the ISS.

It is certainly not the norm for satellite launches, but if your mission meets the parameters and there is available space on a cargo supply that's already going to the ISS, you can potentially get a cheaper ride by going that route.

As far as I know the ISS doesn't have any facilities for "bringing in" a larger satellite or repairing it. NASA is pretty protective of the ISS and objects approaching it have to follow very particular procedures and be certified for the process (Dragon, Cygnus, etc.).

Also most satellites aren't in an orbit similar to the ISS. Things usually either get launched equitorially (east), polar (north/south), or are are much higher altitude in geostationary orbit. The ISS has a peculiar orbital inclination to make it more accessible to both US and Russian launch sites.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by outworlder on Friday March 12, 2021 @03:02PM (#26440236)
They have to be 'roughly' in the same orbit as the ISS. You can go up or down. You would't really do any inclination changes (if you, say, wanted an equatorial orbit) as there's no way a microsat would have enough fuel. Better to launch in the correct inclination.

> Can we go the other way and use the ISS as like an orbital garage to capture and fix satellites?

Moving the whole station doesn't really make sense. Even a vehicle would burn a lot of fuel, and would only really work, once again, in the same (or close to the same) inclination.

Inclination changes are so expensive that there was at least one case where an operator sent a satellite all the way to the Moon and back, because it cost less fuel that way.

Re:Myanmar's satellite held by Japan on space station due to... by shadowgovt on Friday March 12, 2021 @03:33PM (#26440543)
> Inclination changes are so expensive that there was at least one case where an operator sent a satellite all the way to the Moon and back, because it cost less fuel that way.

To get a good rule-of-thumb for this in your brain, you can think of it in terms of vector mathematics.

Consider a circular orbit. Now consider two vectors: one in the direction of that orbit, one perpendicular to it. A naive inclination change from 0 degrees to 90 degrees, with no other change to the orbit's dynamics (i.e. same eccentricity, same periapsis / apoapsis), require the velocity to change from parallel to the first vector to parallel to the second, at the same magnitude. That's a total change of SQRT(2 * starting_velocity^2) ~= 1.4 * starting velocity. If we consider a velocity that is LEO (about 7.8 km/s), our total velocity change would have to be about 10.92 km/s.

Putting a satellite into LEO from Earth's surface only costs between 9 and 10 km/s from gravity loss, steering, and wind resistance. Earth is a deceptively expensive gravity well to be doing inclination change maneuvers in.