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Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:08PM (#25248553)
I'd like to share my sleeping practice which I've developed after several years of focusing on it and trying to recreate the pre-industrial (and possibly pre-farming) sleep patterns my ancestors had for millions of years before the last few thousand.

Whenever I feel tired, I lay down to rest.

Whenever I am sleeping, I allow myself to sleep until I am "fully slept", meaning I can lay there for a while, still physically resting, and not fall asleep.

Sometimes this means only a couple hours, and sometimes it's 16 or more. Whatever it is, if I am tired and want to keep sleeping, that's what I do.

A couple of times I think I was coming down with something, I slept for more than 24 hours with only pee breaks. And I woke up feeling fresh as a cucumber, as they say.

Those flus and colds which I used to get once or twice a year and which would sometimes drag on for weeks? I can't remember the last time I've had that happen, but it's been several years now. (Of course, I have several other practices to thank for this, in addition to the sleep.)

I also practice what I call "dog sleep" or "cat sleep", meaning I lay down and close my eyes and fully rest my body, without necessarily losing all alertness or consciousness.

My rewards have been improved cognition, better health and overall feeling, and still being able to do occasional coding marathons like I used to when I was half my current age.

We've been conditioned to think of sleep as laziness and sloth, but nothing could be further from the truth on the cellular level. When you rest, your cells go to work cleaning, rebuilding, and renewing your body. Your mind also does sorting and self-analysis, and returns the results in the form of remembered dreams.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by zascrash on Sunday November 29, 2020 @10:37PM (#25250493)
I used to think that our body know better. But I realise it doesn't do what is better but rather what it is used to do.

I felt I had to eat sweets frequently, drink coca-coca everyday and 3 meals a day etc. My body felt terrible when I didn't. I stopped listed to what my body wanted and consciously stop those things. First week it was really painful. Second week I got used to. Third week I completely changed. Now I have to force myself do eat sweets, drink soda or having so many meals a day.

I still listen my body about drink water and not sure if I should really listen it when it comes to sleep.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by jacobwilliamroy on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:42AM (#25251533)
Personally, I think processed food is literally poison. This is based on my experience living across the street from a 7/11 eating primarily processed prepackaged foods, whatever hot garbage wrapped in plastic they had under the heat lamp multiple times a day for a month.

Now I mostly eat spinach, lentils, organic granola, yams, brown rice, occasional fish. Cognition is better, sleep is better, energy is higher. I don't personally believe the body can get used to processed foods, I think it's much more likely that one might simply forget what it felt like to eat a normal diet and feel regular all the time.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by Broken_Hippo on Monday November 30, 2020 @05:08AM (#25252317)
We've eaten processed food for generations, though - and lots and lots of very questionable food that could literally be poison.

Sausages are processed foods, but they kept us alive over the winter. Salt pork anyone? Dried fish? Weevil-filled grains that hopefully stay dry during the winter and foods in root cellars.

I'll add that plenty of processed food is an absolute miracle. Frozen vegetables, for example. You weren't simply eating processed food. You were eating low-quality food that wasn't exactly healthy.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by kls on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:25AM (#25252703)
I would add Pickles, Kimchi, Sauerkraut, Soy Sauce, Worcestershire, pretty much any preserved or fermented food is going to be processed food and was the norm before refrigeration. Some of it is really good for you some of it is not so good.

As well there is a lot of misinformation and pseudoscience miracle cure babble in nutrition. For a long time now, we have been sold that preserved/processed foods = bad. But we where also sold that butter was bad and to eat margarine. Come to find out, trans fats where worse and butter and olive oil are actually pretty healthy for us. We were sold that all fat are bad and to eat more grains and carbs, then we got an explosion in diabetes, heart disease and various other related ailments.

These, examples don't even get into the pseudo science "cure cancer with body ph diets" type snake oil being sold, as well as the other multitudes of quackery that exist to sell a book. The fat, sugar dynamics was considered settled science and was pushed hard by the American Heart Association, and the Cancer Foundation for decades. In my opinion, nutritional science and the big tobacco science debacle that was raging at the same time, did more to damage "sciences" credibility with the uniformed public than anything else.

The reality is there are processed and preserved foods that are really good for us, there are processed and preserved foods that are really bad for us. Just as there are fresh foods that are really not so good for such as Asparagus for women.

Honestly short of a a few really bad things, such as slim-jims, modern processed candy and candy bars, soft-drinks and processed juices, the real trick is balance and moderation. Food variety, calorie restriction and fasting will do more to preserve health than eliminating a certain type of food, because it has been deemed "unhealthy" by the current regime of nutritional pseudoscience.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:35PM (#25258619)
No.

You're talking about preserved food.

Processed food is made in giant boiler vats, with chemicals which we have not had in our environment for more than 50-80 years. Chemicals which were approved as "generally recognized as safe" several years before the same agency even admitted that tobacco was harmful to health. Which are proven carcinogens, mutagens, and irritants. If you compare this to salted sausage or sauerkraut, you're a fool.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by Broken_Hippo on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @08:19AM (#25264854)
No.

Sausage is a highly processed food and definitely not good for you. Same for bacon. You can have highly processed food without chemicals: You can make processed cheese at home without the vats [1]. Not all "chemicals" are unnatural things that we didn't eat before, and some of the "chemicals" are preservatives, basically making them preserved foods.

We didn't really have frozen foods before refrigeration became common.

Bread in the 1800's wasn't very pure if you were buying the cheap stuff [2]. We weren't really eating "pure and natural" stuff before, and have been experimenting with different chemicals and things for eons. Some were fine (I'm guessing lutefisk isn't really bad for you despite the lye, same with pretzels), others weren't (lead whiteners, for example).

Just because one agency sees things as generally safe and has messed up doesn't mean all agencies have done this nor does it mean they are always wrong. Just like the fact that coke will clean battery terminals doesn't mean it is bad to have occasionally. Heck, eating lemons will destroy tooth enamel, but yet the juice will help keep scurvy away.

[1] https://youtu.be/qlJ30PGUk8Y [2] http://www.victorianweb.org/science/health/health1.html

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by jacobwilliamroy on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:53PM (#25256661)
You know what I mean by "processed foods" and it is not frozen vegetables, salted meat, or smoked fish. The "meat stick" you get at the store is not just "salted meat". It is not a preserve, it is a processed food. Look at the ingredient label, they use a lot more than just "salt and meat" to make that stick and it is pretty sketchy to put that stuff in a person's body.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by Broken_Hippo on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:32PM (#25257880)
The thing is: Not everything with a large, technical name is bad. Simply having preservatives isn't necessarily bad - and neither is artificial flavorings. I'm pretty sure modern "Beef sticks" aren't really bad either - I'm gonna guess you mean something like a "slim jim", whose ingredients seem pretty standard [1]. They just aren't good if you live off of them as a standard part of your diet.

And honestly, if you don't differentiate that you don't mean that stuff, there is no way for a reader to tell. Some people absolutely mean processed foods like smoked fish, canned/frozen vegetables, and the like.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Slim-Jim-Smoked-Original-24-Count/dp/....

Edited for spelling.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:39PM (#25258671)
>The thing is: Not everything with a large, technical name is bad. Simply having preservatives isn't necessarily bad - and neither is artificial flavorings.

It is simply bad if the substances are proven carcinogens, mutagens, endocrine disruptors, and sterilizers.

Not to mention all the poison which is produced and dumped into our air and water producing this stuff.

Your slim jim example includes the following:

Corn Syrup: proven harmful to human/animal health

Soy Protein Concentrate: proven harmful to human/animal

Spices: what is this? nobody knows

Dextrose: proven harmful to human/animal health

Paprika Extractives: nobody knows how this happens

Flavoring: flavoring is not an ingredient, this ingredient is concealed from view, and cannot be trusted

Hydrolyzed Soy: proven harmful to animal/human health

Sodium Nitrite: proven carcinogen, mutagen, and harmful to micro-biome.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by jacobwilliamroy on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:40PM (#25258675)
I guess you can mix that stuff and be confused if you really want to. Go ahead, be frustrating and tedious. See how far that gets you in life.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:04AM (#25250893)
Our body evolved for an environment without those things that you listed.

I think you were right to consciously remove those things from its access.

Sleep was always an essential part of the equation, however.

Try to imagine how you lived 10K years ago.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by Ma8ee on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:41AM (#25251892)
Yes, sleep was always essential, but we didn’t have artificial lights and didn’t spend most of our days sitting on our asses. Both are things that probably disturb our natural sleep clues.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:47AM (#25251917)
Sure... But I'm not giving those up for now. Not sleeping enough for optimal function, I'm not as attached to.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by Ma8ee on Monday November 30, 2020 @05:24AM (#25252393)
I didn’t suggest that you shouldn’t sleep enough, just that our feelings about how much we need to sleep might not be reliable, in either direction. Maybe we would benefit from sleeping even more than we do because we rarely are physically exhausted at the end of the day.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @07:04PM (#25260670)
I do find that physical exercise and exhaustion are helpful for good sleep. If I lay down and "can't fall asleep", I typically get up and keep working until I can't help but fall asleep.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by nradov on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:10PM (#25257584)
If I lived 10K years ago I imagine I would have been frequently sleep deprived. Obtaining food, building shelters, and guarding against attacks were all higher priorities. We don't have any hard data on neolithic sleep patterns.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @07:10PM (#25260726)
That's a good point, and one of my arguments for unscheduled sleep.

All the things you mention would indeed take priority, and we probably spent days sleep deprived at times, making up for it with extended long sleep when there was opportunity.

I think our lives were not nearly as difficult or demanding as some imagine, however, especially when you factor in the social and tribal factor. Sleeping in shifts would allow for plenty, attacks were not constant, especially with good shelter, and shelter only takes so long to construct, if that's necessary at all.

Remember, we started in an environment which provided everything we needed already, and one we were evolved for.

If you look at the lives of other apex predators like lions, bears, and eagles, their lives are pretty good in this respect, and their biggest threats are either their own species or humans.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by NoahParker on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:20PM (#25308182)
I think we'd sleep less, but we wouldn't be deprived

Exercise and absence of artificial light would probably have us sleeping much more deeply and much more quickly

In modern hunter-gatherer societies there is also a lot of free time and play, so perhaps there would also be less stress to recover from at night

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by dorkwood on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:30PM (#25248695)
This is similar to my "drink when you're thirsty" method for remaining hydrated. There's a whole industry built on the premise that we're unable to regulate our own water intake without the help of apps and special water bottles. I've not found that to be the case myself.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by vestrigi on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:54PM (#25248857)
I guess I use the same method. For a year or so, I forced myself to drink an additional liter of water per day and I didn’t feel any difference from it, except that I had to go to the toilet all the time. The only problem that arises now is that I tend to forget that I’m a bit thirsty because of the ubiquitous distractions in our lives.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @06:44PM (#25249215)
hyper-optimized distractions are one of our new challenges we face today as attentional beings.

hyper-mindfulness and hyper-awareness is one of the best tools I've found to overcome them.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by eru on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:41PM (#25249932)
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:48PM (#25250285)
Yeah...

I think it's laughable, preposterous to call focus and flow a "disorder."

Whoever wants to call me being able to focus on a task at hand a disorder can stuff it up their butt.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by 14u2c on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:37AM (#25251035)
I think you are trivializing problems that many people struggle with. From my understanding hyperfocus is not at all "being able to focus on a task at hand" but rather being unable to focus on anything other than a specific task. Often this task is often NOT what should be worked on during the allotted time.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by eru on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:45AM (#25251063)
From what I've seen, people in hyperfocus often seem to effectively lose their sense of hearing, too. Which is sort-of useful in a noisy office, but can be dangerous when going about your daily life.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by kls on Monday November 30, 2020 @07:40AM (#25253154)
The problem is that the converse can be true, this is true if you actually hit the hyperfocus trance but if you don't get there, the noise can actually distract you from ever getting there and if it is not a task you want to do, the noise is guaranteed to provide the needed distraction, to avoid the task all together.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by eru on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @12:04AM (#25262520)
Yes. Hyperfocus and distractibility seem both related to trouble with managing attention.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by kls on Monday November 30, 2020 @07:24AM (#25253045)
I have an attention disorder with hyper focus. Most of the time for people like me (at least the other ones I have talked to). The focus is on items that interest your mind, it can be a blessing and a curse. Obviously it works well if hyperfocus hits you while you are programming, not so well when it decides to focus on something like say sexual desire as hyperfocus is an almost compulsive behavior.

But honestly, at least for me, the hyperfocus is not really that debilitating, it's the lack of being able to focus on anything mundane or boring, your mind will literally just not latch on and it's like pulling your hair out to continue to force yourself to try to mentally latch on.

This is where medicine comes in, specifically amphetamine based stimulants, which honestly are one of the real true success stories of modern mental health science. There are few other drugs in the mental health sector that have the efficacy of amphetamines and its ability to regulate the issues associated with ADD/ADHD.

So the problem with those of us that have attention disorders is our minds latch on hard to what we are interested in and just fog on the uninteresting parts. This leads to a few issues, one can be sloppiness, one just flubs over the details that they don't like, no follow thru is another big issue, so one starts a project does all the details they are interested in and then loses interest in the project. Avoidance of task until it becomes a big problem is another. As a note on the latter, for some tasks that one cannot focus on are almost physically painful and extremely stressful to even think about. Before I sought treatment a big one for me was just doing the dishes, I don't know what it is about dishes but I find it to be one of the most boring and mundane tasks you can do. So I would avoid it, until the sink hit critical mass, and then I had to drag myself kicking and screaming to the sink and in the processes I would get distracted by every single little thing. What should have been a 30 minute job would stretch out 2 to 3 hours while I found every other thing I could to distract myself in the kitchen. The whole time, I knew the dishes needed to be done, I knew as they where stacking up it would be easier to just deal with them now, and it would be worse later, it caused me a lot of stress knowing it was building, but yet I was locked in this pattern each and every week yet my pathological behavior never changed.

Now back to the medicine, ADD/ADHD medicine provides those of us that suffer from it, with the ability to turn on and off focus as well as allows us to remain focused on more mundane tasks. When I am on my medicine it is like I have the ability to turn hyperfocus on and off, on whatever subject I want to, it becomes like a superpower as well I am able to break that focus as it is not so compulsive. As a contrast, now I can be extremely focused on a task, realize that I am getting eye or wrist strain remind myself that I need a break, get up walk over to the sink and wash a few dishes as an activity to do while I take a breather. Where off the medicine, I am extremely single task focused, and have to drive that task to completion, any distractions from that single task are almost physically painful and stressful to even think about.

The way I always explained it, is it's like taking a road trip where all you focus on is the destination, you dream about the destination, you speed to get to the destination, you don't get off any exits until you are so low on gas that you can't ignore it, but in the end the destination was far less interesting than the trip to get there but you missed all that, because all you could do is focus on getting to the destination. With medicine you can still be extremely focused on the destination but realize that the sign of the roadside oddities and emporium at the next exit actually looks pretty cool and might be worth a slight detour. It allows you to see opportunities along the trip and view the trip as an experience in and of itself.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by eru on Monday November 30, 2020 @09:10AM (#25253828)
Methylphenidate and nicotine also work fairly well.

Thanks for the write-up!

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:59AM (#25251119)
>should

by whose perspective?

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by 14u2c on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:36AM (#25251512)
It could just be the tasks and goals one sets for one's self. Or as basic as hyper focusing on coding to until you realized all grocery stores have closed for the night and you don't have any food in the house.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by jrumbut on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:06AM (#25250903)
The first component of any disorder is that it's causing a problem. If you like it and it's not harming others then it's not a disorder regardless of what condition it may resemble.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by Ragib_Zaman on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:42AM (#25251051)
The thirst mechanism becomes less reliable with age, so older people may find those products beneficial. But yes, for most healthy young to middle aged people, "drink when you're thirsty" is generally fine. Maybe with the added subpoint that if your urine is often colored, try to drink a little more.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by runeks on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:53AM (#25252260)
> Maybe with the added subpoint that if your urine is often colored, try to drink a little more.

Honest question: why? Are there studies that point to coloured urine as the cause of disease?

It's clear to me that coloured urine is associated with disease (since the body excretes waste products via urine), but not that it can be the cause of it.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @05:19AM (#25252368)
I think it's just an indicator of more concentration of non-water things, correlated with not drinking a lot of water, and slower urine production.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:58AM (#25251115)
Yes, it is important to pay attention to urine, and poop too.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by zrobotics on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:31AM (#25251824)
This will sound wierd, but I knew a rancher who could diagnose a calf (correctly, confirmed by a vet) based on those two things. Ironically, he had been developing diabetes, which had he been paying as close attention to waste products he might have caught sooner.

PSA: Look before you flush, it's actually not a bad way to gauge general health.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:49AM (#25251926)
Maybe a little weird, but certainly not surprising to me.

It's the closest you can get non-invasively to looking inside yourself.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by eecc on Monday November 30, 2020 @05:32PM (#25259905)
Can I get weirder? What lab assessment material should I procure - as a consumer - to evaluate the most significant characteristics of my wastes?
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @07:12PM (#25260740)
Your nose and eyes is sufficient lab equipment.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by vbezhenar on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:57PM (#25248866)
I don't think that our ancestors were able to drink when they wanted to. You need to travel to some drinking spot which takes time and probably required group effort.

Though I don't think that we should just blindly recreate our ancient habits.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @06:27PM (#25249102)
You are correct, though at some point we figured out how to carry it, stay close to it, and establish access.

I've been told by a few wise people to wait to drink until I'm done trekking, by the way.

I don't think we should blindly do anything, and abandonining millions of years of evolution and wisdom especially.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by aeyes on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:37PM (#25249552)
> I've been told by a few wise people to wait to drink until I'm done trekking, by the way.

I'm not sure what distance we are talking about but doing any kind of sport (even light exercise) you should start to drink after at most 1 hour.

If drinking wasn't necessary, long distance runners or athletes of other endurance sports wouldn't drink. You need to stay hydrated or you'll face fatigue, muscle problems and generally perform worse.

Trained athletes will be able to drink much less but that is because their bodies are more efficient, they still need to hydrate for maximum performance. The 1 hour rule isn't set in stone and you can go 3-4 hours without drinking but it has many drawbacks.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by nradov on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:40PM (#25250793)
Hydration actually isn't very important for endurance athletes in events up to a couple hours. The real benefit comes from carbohydrate supplementation. The water just acts as a convenient delivery channel to get the carbs into the athlete's body quickly.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by Ma8ee on Monday November 30, 2020 @07:23AM (#25253042)
I’m quite certain that is strongly dependent on the ambient temperature.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:04PM (#25250046)
I'm talking about a several-hour moderate difficulty hike without running or high-intensity exercise, which you started in a state of adequate hydration.

I've tried out several different approaches many times, and the best I've learned is to wait to drink when resting, no sipping in between.

I am not a doctor and this is not medical advice. YMMV.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by watwut on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:52AM (#25251592)
When I drink only when I am thirsty, I can go whole day with drinking only one cup of water. When that happens, my head hurts a lot in the evening, at which point is it too late to drink. I also dehydratated myself a couple of times when doing sport.

Apparently, "drink when you're thirsty" does not work for me.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by mguerville on Monday November 30, 2020 @08:58AM (#25253696)
Same, I sometimes start getting a headache in the late afternoon only to realize I’ve only had coffee a my one liquid intake for the day. It’s not as bad when working from home because I have more reminders to drink, including when in the kitchen to make lunch.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by m4x on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:13AM (#25251716)
I'm the same. I rarely feel thirsty and can happily go all day without drinking any water. Even when dehydrated, I don't feel thirsty. Remembering to drink is a constant chore.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by stevewodil on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:11PM (#25249774)
Yeah, the body has a mechanism to tell us when it needs water. You don't pee when you don't feel the urge to, so I don't drink water when I don't feel the urge to in most cases.

I drink some when I first wake up just so I don't forget to drink some, and if I'm exercising I drink a lot

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:01PM (#25250036)
I've heard many wise teachers advise drinking a glass or two of clean water in the morning, so you're on the right track.

On the subject of peeing, I've come to the conclusion that it's unhealthy to hold it in more than on the rare occasion, and I aim to pee within a few seconds of having the urge.

Actually, I believe it should be a human right to pee within 30 seconds of wanting to, and I'll do it, too.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by nradov on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:33PM (#25250769)
How do you know whether those teachers were actually wise or just repeating bullshit that sounded good?
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:00AM (#25251125)
Because I witnessed their abilities.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by nradov on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:37AM (#25251256)
Which abilities were those, and how do you know whether their abilities were caused by or in spite of their hydration habits?
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by mekkkkkk on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:31AM (#25252149)
If that is a bulletproof way to handle water intake, why would you worry about "forgetting"?
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by stevewodil on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:10PM (#25258324)
Well if I'm engrossed in work or in flow I probably won't notice that I am thirsty or will ignore it for a while. For me it just seems like a good idea to take in some water in the morning to get my body going.

I didn't claim anything to be bulletproof, just saying that your body tells you when it needs water and drinking in excess of that is probably unnecessary

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:44PM (#25258733)
>I didn't claim anything to be bulletproof, just saying that your body tells you when it needs water and drinking in excess of that is probably unnecessary

Yes, and it's important to listen to it, and hear it. Some body signals are subtle, and you won't hear them unless you pay attention.

Headaches, migraines, and other unignorable signals are the body screaming for help after many other more subtle signals have been ignored.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by devnonymous on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:49AM (#25251927)
IIRC, if you're thirsty, your body has already been dehydrated. Ideally, you'd want to drink before you're thirsty.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by NoahParker on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:22PM (#25308213)
Maybe when we had nothing else to do, but I feel modern life is quite distracting. It can be hard for people to get in touch with their feelings, physical needs, etc
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by filleokus on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:18PM (#25248610)
In principle this sounds pretty ideal. Sleeping, or resting, when you need and not force an arbitrary societal schedule on yourself. But, I'm guessing that you don't go into an office nor have a lot of meetings? Do you live alone or does it work with a family around the house?
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:30PM (#25248694)
My circumstances vary. If I'm sharing space with someone, I ask that they don't wake me up unless it's urgent, and that they don't talk to or engage me after I wake up, until I signal that I'm ready.

No, I don't go into the office anymore. I live a pauper's existence compared to the past, when I lived like royalty, "earning" enough to pay rent on my own nice apartment in Manhattan, buying new clothes and things regularly, as much as whatever food I wanted, and so on. Though compared to majority of humans and other animals, I'm still doing very well in terms of survival and comfort.

My finances are almost non-existence, and my sense of happiness and self-fulfillment is through the roof.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by rubicon33 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:52PM (#25249664)
I'm interested in hearing more about you, your life, where you were, why you changed, and how it's affected you.

I'm guessing you were in a situation like many people I know (including myself). Well off, couldn't really reasonably ask for much more, yet still chasing happiness like a carrot on a stick. Tired, unmotivated, and forever looking for the next thing to feel better.

Diet, sleep, and exercise are all "in check". (Not micro managed by any means, but certainly not eating fast food, alcohol, and sleeping poor for example).

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:29PM (#25250184)
I'm a creative person by nature, blessed with being allowed to figure out how things work by taking them apart when I was a child. I didn't hear "No" very often.

Eventually, I found myself working on software maintenance at a bank, a job I become attached to because I thought I wasn't worth much without a degree. I worked there for 5 years.

In corporate, my three role models have been Wally, Costanza, and Gibbons, so I can't say I strained myself too much. I probably spent more time entertaining myself online than proper "working". I was comfortable, and for a while I thought I'd beat the system. I was certainly better off than many who struggle daily.

I worked on CMBS, from the flush days pre-2007, through the crisis, and into times of slow attrition and incremental cost-cutting. Eventually, I was laid off.

I scrambled to find another job, was fired after a month or two for regular and unrepentant tardiness, and then got another one and stayed there for about 3/4 of a year until being laid off. I rode out six months on unemployment, also eating through my savings.

I realized that with five years at the bank on my resume, it will be much easier to find another job, so I did that. I went on a spree of under-a-year stints at different companies, enjoying the first month honeymoon, integration and learning phase, leaving when I became bored.

At this point, I could find a new job before leaving the old one, and my work was good enough that there were no hard feelings. Regardless of how long I worked somewhere, I contributed and was a net positive.

After getting one small raise at the bank over five years, I doubled my salary in three. I was so happy to tell my family that I broke the six figures mark, and they were proud of me.

It sounds good on paper, but here is the problem. Of all the different places I worked "professionally" in 20 years, there is maybe one or two projects that are still in use. Most of what I'd worked on is gone forever, there's probably not a copy left anywhere. Of the systems that are still in use, they're used by a handful of people, and will never see the "light of day" outside of their cellar.

Of all the systems I've worked on, I can only think of one which actually contributed something positive to the world. Most of them were basically negative karma for me.

I played a small part in selling unsound financial instruments, which ruined many people, and left many without a house to live in. I helped integrate advertising into webpages, which helped invade people's privacy and reduce the quality of their Web experience. I worked on countless advertising campaigns, which amounted to helping convince my fellow humans to spend their precious resources on things which would probably harm them, like sugar delivery products and oil drilling.

But the worst of it was that my time was largely out of my control, under the control of someone else. Even if I did absolutely no work at the office and spent all my time browsing [redacted], I was still obligated to get up at a certain time, show up and spend the better portion of a day there, dress a certain way, etc.

Eventually, I realized that this was unsustainable, so I started unsubscribing from those things one by one. One of the first things I unsubscribed from was paying monthly rent. This allowed me to unsubscribe from having to work full-time. I think unsubscribed from many other things, one at a time.

I learned that if you make it a priority, and only change one small thing at a time, there is little to fear and much to gain. Not only that, but my life became infinitely richer and more interesting.

One of the most incredible changes I've experienced is that I no longer get that feeling of, "wow, that was 3 years ago? feels just like yesterday... time flies". In fact, I have the opposite experience often, when I think, "wow, it feels like that was 3 years ago, but it's only been a couple of weeks".

I attribute this to the amount of new and unique experiences I have every day, which used to be close to zero, and is now several per day.

I might come back and write more, but I have to go for now. Thank you for asking your question, and I hope this helps.

One more thing: If you consider the quantum nature of our Universe, and the power of observation and intention, you will begin to see just how powerful your intention is, especially when you intend well, and work to improve your karma every day. There's a lot more to our Universe than today's science admits, it's tuned for love and enjoyment, savoring, and if you focus your attention, incredible, magical things will begin to manifest. I say this as a clear-minded computer programmer and systems maintainer who's spent most of my life figuring out how systems work and experimenting with them.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by maskedinvader on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:01PM (#25250611)
thanks for sharing, had a quick couple of follow up questions, how do you unsubscribe from paying monthly rent ? also did you get married and have kids ? if yes how did they factor in to your life ?
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by 14u2c on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:49AM (#25251080)
I am also curious. How does this person just decide to stop paying rent? I think we would all love to do same but paying for housing is really the only option if you want to remain in a city where you already have an established network of friends, family, etc. The only thing I can think of is a communal living situation in a rural area.

Edit: sibling comment posted as I was typing. Apparently its couch-surfing and religion.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:06AM (#25251149)
My favorite solution was vandwelling. Very cheap and workable. May return to it.

It's not religion, it is trusting in a higher power, subtly different.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:41AM (#25251049)
I have not dared have children until I'm certain I can take care of them, and I think I'm getting close. I don't believe in marriage, but I'm in a relationship. My partners accept me and support me.

I am low-maintenance, so it is not a burden on them. My rider is clean water, unprocessed food, Web hosting, a 104-key, a computer, and an Internet connection.

I unsubscribed from rent by not renewing my lease and moving out. I rented a storage space for the things I was still attached to at the time, but for much less. After all those boxes went unopened for months and I didn't miss them, I felt comfortable getting rid of them too.

I read that Elon Musk was big on couch-surfing, so I thought, if he could do it, why not me? I was blessed with friends and family who would put me up for various amounts of time, and the grace and patience to get along with them.

Generally speaking, if you want to accomplish something great, you should study those who have already done it. Read their biographies. Read articles and comments about them online. Ignore the noise of common advice you could've gotten from any other schmuck, and look for what they did differently from everyone else.

Elon Musk couch-surfs. Steve Jobs "dropped out" of college on paper and kept attending classes he was interested in. Kurt Cobain wore layers. Jimi Hendrix took speed and spent endless hours practicing guitar. Jesus abandoned physical possessions and embraced all-encompassing love of our Universe. If they could do it, why not you? Probably not any smarter or more capable thank you. All it takes is determination.

Perfect your actions. Every little thing that you do, make it impeccable. If you can't do the small things well, how can you hope to do the big things any better?

Connect with the other dimensions. Ignore the nay-sayers and concretists. 150 years ago, something like telephone would be considered impossible. 50 years ago, videochat was just barely non-fiction. We've been alive for millions of years, adapting to all the possibilities our existence provides.

In my quest, I visited Urbana-Champaign. I went to the old Netscape office and sat in the parking garage and meditated and slept and dreamed. I traveled to Redmond and Mountain View and all over Silicon Valley, and I listened to the space.

I think what's really carried me through all these changes is my relationship with higher power. I believe in intelligent Universe which helps me, provides for me, and never gives me more than I can handle.

I've heard a saying via my family, and later via others: Gd gives you a day, and Gd gives you food to eat. I live by that, I believe that Gd always loves me, is always there for me, is always watching me, rooting for me, supporting me, and will never give me more than I can handle.

I cannot overstate the comfort I feel from knowing this in every situation. It's like being an ant or a beetle, but knowing that there's a giant mountain of a human somewhere up there who's watching out for me, and won't let me come to any harm.

Of course, my ability to take care of an ant is infintesimal compared to the one who is sysadmin, operator, and developer of my very existence. And an ant has a much greater chance of comprehending a human than I have of comprehending this existence. So I just run along and hope that I'll find some sweets in my path, and that I am amusing or interesting or good enough to still be taken care of tomorrow. Kind of like that car battery in Rick & Morty.

You can model this any way you want in your mind, but the key is that this spirit of goodness permeates everything in our existence, and it's always looking for a way to make things a little bit better, a little bit nicer, a little bit kinder. It's infinitely more powerful than all the money in the world put together. It's infinitely smarter than all the world's computers and humans together. It can literally control every aspect of our existence, modify past present and future faster than you can type sudo. And it's here, right now, watching you read this from inside your very mind, opening it up to receive its gift.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by rubicon33 on Monday November 30, 2020 @11:32PM (#25262319)
I'm always curious about how someone ends up where they are, be it physically, or spiritually.

In your case I assume you didn't always subscribe to these beliefs and viewpoints, right? I assume based on everything you're written that there was a time, perhaps working at the bank, where you were just like me or anyone else... Working, dissatisfied, looking for more...

What changed?

What sparked the transition?

I admire your conviction but at the same time, it's yours. You'll never be able to just say those things and convey the same power that it has on you. It just doesn't work.

Instead, maybe, you can explain to someone how you got there. How did you come to these convictions? How did you become a person who believes in a higher power who has good intentions and is always watching? For some of us, that sounds more like an acid trip than reality - yet I'm open minded.

In my case I'm comfortable. Very comfortable. Maybe even too comfortable. I want more in life, and I chase happiness like a carrot on a stick. I guess you could say I'm having a mid life crisis my entire life. I can perform exceptionally well when I am inspired, but being inspired is a transient state. I'd love to find peace with my situation, and be inspired to work hard, and work well.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by maskedinvader on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:27AM (#25251221)
thanks for sharing again. Living minimalistically and not marrying all the comforts of life is the key I guess. Makes sense although you will have to return to paying rent and a fixed place you call your own when you have kids. Goodluck.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by Noumenon72 on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:12AM (#25250921)
> I rode out six months on unemployment, also eating through my savings.

> I realized that with five years at the bank on my resume, it will be much easier to find another job, so I did that.

What are you saying here? You had the five years on your resume all the time you were struggling and on unemployment.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:49AM (#25251299)
first, bank for 5 years.

then ~2 more jobs, about a year.

then unemployment with half-hearted minimal job searching and spending the savings.

then back to the workforce for a few more years.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by Spooky23 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:46PM (#25248796)
It’s easier than one might think. The key is being able to pull off the 20m snooze.

In my misspent youth, I used to drive to a Starbucks or Dunkin’ Donuts, pound a coffee and close my eyes for 15-20m. Another thing is to reserve a conference room on a remote floor during lunchtime.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by srl on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:16PM (#25249433)
> A couple of times I think I was coming down with something, I slept for more than 24 hours with only pee breaks. And I woke up feeling fresh as a cucumber, as they say.

I don't really take sleeping that seriously in general, but I used to get sick pretty frequently (sick enough to not work, a couple times a year). Nowadays I have a routine, and it's not so different: if I feel a tiny bit sick, I go home, lie in bed, and order semi-healthy Mediterranean food (I have specific cravings when I get sick -- is this common?). I stay that way until I can't stand being in bed any more. I also avoid any source of stress.

The number of days per year when I'm sick has probably gone down by a factor of 4: I get properly sick half as often, and when I am sick, I get better much faster. Almost as importantly, getting sick is no longer "miserable" in the same way. It seems a substantial part of the misery of being sick (with something mild, like a cold or, at my age, flu) just comes from trying to do things you shouldn't try to do. Lying in bed and executing a nap/snack/pee/read loop... that's not so bad.

(As others in this thread love to point out, this doesn't work for people with bad sick leave, or stressful jobs, or single parents, and so on and so forth. That's a strong case for sick leave etc., as far as I see.)

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:23PM (#25249472)
Yes, I typically crave chicken broth. In fact, I know that if I find myself craving chicken, I'm probably coming down with something, and it's time to do what you describe above.

I'm grateful to the sacrifices of all the chickens I've consumed over the years. May their spirits feel my gratitude and find peace in helping me.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by hutzlibu on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:21PM (#25250133)
"I also avoid any source of stress."

This very much.

And I go crazy lying in bed for long, so for me I rather find a quiet spot in nature in the sun (or shade), even if I am quite sick. A river is perfect. And then just sit or lie for hours.

But I live close to wild nature, so I could not do this if I would have to drive through some rush hour to get there.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by rconti on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:38AM (#25251873)
Agreed; I've worked hard to prioritize sleep in my life, though not to the extent that the parent poster has. But simply stopping, right now, and going to sleep for as long as you need, at the first sign of illness, will save you days of misery.

Every single time I've said "well, I'll just go into the office and if I don't feel well, I can just head home midday", I've regretted it. It's too late.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by baby on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:26PM (#25249850)
Yeah I have specific food needs when I get sick as well. Personally I used to be sick all the time until I met my SO. Having someone that makes you mentally stable is a huge change imo.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by Rivosa on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:16PM (#25249432)
> 24h sleep

I advise anyone reading this and experiencing similar sleep pattern or fatigue to visit their doctor. This could be anything from diabetes, iron difeciency, Vitamin D difeciancy, and whole other things that could be wrong. Please don't use someone's else experience as the whole truth.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:27PM (#25249491)
Edit: I want to preface this by saying that I'm not writing off modern medicine, nor post-modern medicine, nor saying that you should avoid doctors altogether. Just that it's a powerful and thus dangerous tool, and that you should ideally find a doctor you trust and then maintain contact with them, probably by visiting them regularly, now that I think about it, and maybe occasionally giving them a nice gift. :)

I advise the exact opposite, to visit doctors as little as possible, unless you experience pain which does not go away after a day or two.

In my experience, doctors will find something to do with you, and it will rarely work out to your advantage, unless it is emergency medicine.

My personal experiences: One doctor told me I need to get circumcised because I had minor irritation on my glans due to a scratch, which I told them about.

Another doctor insisted, without even looking at my X-rays, IIRC, that the cast on my broken hand was not sufficient, and that I needed him to take the cast off and perform surgery, or I would not be able to use my hand properly again.

If I had listened to these doctors instead of thinking for myself, I'd be without my precious foreskin and undergone unnecessary surgery, which would've delayed my getting better.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by dennisgorelik on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:08PM (#25250063)
Multiple dentists found multiple "problems" with my teeths (without me ever complaining).

Fortunately for me, their diagnoses did not overlap with other dentists.

Several years later of me doing nothing (except regular dental cleaning) - I am still comfortable with my teeth.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by licebmi__at__ on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:55AM (#25251109)
It might have something to do with incentives. In my country most people would complain that the doctor doesn’t do anything to them, and based on my experience living with doctors all my life (parents, sisters and now wife), I see they are actually bothered by people taking their time without reason and not being able to pay proper attention to the ones who do need it.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by Valakas on Monday November 30, 2020 @07:28AM (#25253068)
I have the opposite experience. I had fears of having heart problems, or in my head, and at some point in my life I went to doctors and they all sent me away, they couldn't find anything wrong. The more incompetent ones might have more suspicious, because they were playing it safe. Better to order more tests and not find anything, than be confident and make a fatal mistake.

One of them even went as far as telling me "Man, there's so many people sick ou there and you're here wasting your time and money while you're damn healthy. Go enjoy life :)"

Maybe doctors think differently in the US or you were just unlucky?

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @07:15PM (#25260763)
It goes both ways. Sometimes they won't listen, and sometimes they'll tell you shit you don't need.

The important bit is, think and advocate for yourself, have healthy fear and respect for medical profession, and treasure the good doctors you come across.

And take good care of yourself so that you don't need them.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by baby on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:23PM (#25249839)
I think it’s good to recognize that medicine, like any field, is approximative and imperfect. Lots of people wing it or have different opinions. Doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t see a doctor if something happens to you, but indeed most medicine is reactive, and most preventive medicine you’ll receive automatically.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by hutzlibu on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:15PM (#25250107)
I believe the problem with doctors is, that they a) usually do not have much time for each patient to really do a whole body analysis and b) that the idea of viewing the body as a whole and not seperated parts like a machine still has not made their way fully into all of them yet
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @10:10PM (#25250393)
You're right on both counts.

Doctors are encouraged to systematize and commoditize their "care", and few are able to stand up to the pressure.

The few who are worth treasuring and showering with support.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by risyachka on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:04PM (#25250047)
I believe you should visit a doctor only if this happens at least with some pattern.

If you sleep 24 hours twice a year and all other time you sleep 7-9 - it is a reason to see a doctor?

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by Rivosa on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:11AM (#25252631)
I'd say yes. 24 hours sleep is just insane. Unless you had a long travel journey with several flights and a lot of stress. If however, you had a normal day before and you slept 24h several times, then yes go see a doctor. At least do a blood check to be sure.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:45PM (#25258745)
You said it yourself, unless you're under a lot of stress.

Sometimes the stress is not obvious.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by rajinikantham on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:24PM (#25248658)
Do you have children? If yes, how on earth is this doable?
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by mattbee on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:29PM (#25248689)
This reply works for a lot of self-improvement advice I read on HN.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:33PM (#25248719)
No, of course this would be somewhat different with children.

However, this is how I would also raise a child, letting them sleep as much and whenever they want.

When I was a child myself, my parents were in disagreement. My dad's opinion that I should be "broken in" so that I am better able to integrate into society. My mom thought more along the lines of what I describe.

Seeing that my dad had a societal job while my mom raised me, she largely won out.

I think I have her defense and sheltering of me to thank for being blessed with rarely having problems in this department.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by lqet on Sunday November 29, 2020 @06:08PM (#25248949)
> However, this is how I would also raise a child, letting them sleep as much and whenever they want.

With small kids, the problem is usually not you trying to force a schedule on the kid, but the kid forcing a schedule on you.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @06:29PM (#25249114)
Yes, of course, their schedule takes priority.

We can't always sleep as much as we want to, even without kids. But I've certainly made it a high priority.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by novok on Sunday November 29, 2020 @06:13PM (#25248991)
You have a village / extended family that helps you raise your children.

Also have your kids younger so you don't need sleep as much. Just accept that the first 5 years wont be as sleepful ;) Also small kids tend to sleep a lot, just not on your schedule :D

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by Ma8ee on Monday November 30, 2020 @08:05AM (#25253304)
This is actually the only way that COVID has affected me negatively. We bought a house close to my parents so they could help with the kids, but now they have been self isolating since March.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by hutzlibu on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:26PM (#25250164)
I have small children and I try to live and sleep the same style. Which is of course now much harder, but it still somewhat works with taking shifts with the mother.

I still lack sleep though, but I heard this is normal with small kids...

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by hermitmaster on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:03PM (#25250619)
While I can’t categorically say it gets better with time, it has for me. I have an 18 month old and an almost three year old. I’m back to quasi-normal sleep now. I do wish we had kids when we were younger (I’m 37), but we weren’t planning on having any.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by hutzlibu on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:44AM (#25252215)
Well my toddler is 16 months and things did really already improved a lot in terms of sleep, but the new baby is coming any minute now ... so I expect less of it in the next time ;)
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by hermitmaster on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:48PM (#25257364)
We’re expecting number three in August. FWIW, number two was a lot easier for us.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by hutzlibu on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @03:56AM (#25263640)
Thanks. I hope so, too.

Good luck to you ..

we are already in the clinic by now.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:45AM (#25251286)
Thank you for sharing, encouraging to hear.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by quickthrower2 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:56PM (#25250857)
If you have kids probably ignore this advice and just sleep once they are asleep. It depends on the age but from about 2 they are probably sleeping through the night most of the time so should be OK.

WFH for your day nap!

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by mathattack on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:11AM (#25250919)
I’m the opposite. I go to sleep when I give up on them going to bed. :-)
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by hndamien on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:50PM (#25248823)
Let them sleep when they are tired and wake when they want.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by lqet on Sunday November 29, 2020 @06:11PM (#25248977)
It takes considerable effort to "allow yourself to sleep until you are "fully slept"" if you are woken up by a 2 year old sitting on your head and trying to get you to look at a book with him.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by ufoolme on Sunday November 29, 2020 @06:36PM (#25249174)
“Fully slept....” That’s the dream. My daughter will try to open up my eye lids whilst I’m asleep and then start yelling “it’s morning time” at the top of her lungs. She has done this before at 4am and now I jolt awake at the sound of her entering our bedroom. Sadly it has been very effective at waking me up, and it’s hard to train her out of it when it works so well. To be honest I think I’m also sort of hard impressed by the brutality of it all.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by sleepfailure on Sunday November 29, 2020 @06:19PM (#25249038)
It is clear that their advice is not suitable for someone who has a family and so on... single and living alone, maybe
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:14PM (#25249412)
Having kids changes many things. Certainly, your opportunity to sleep fully will be hampered.

However, if the responsibilities are shared between multiple adults, you can still get it done some of the time, and be well-rested and comfortable for when it's your turn to watch the kids and let other adults do their sleeping.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by doitLP on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:04PM (#25250626)
No battle plan survives contact with the enemy.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by treeman79 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:34PM (#25249531)
My kids are at 3am. School routine starts 6am. They absolutely will stay up late every night if given a choice.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by licebmi__at__ on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:08AM (#25251156)
It seems like yo do enjoy your lifestyle, but man, sleeping more than 8 hours, even when sick, seems impossible for me.

I do have some kind of FOMO, not really about being hyper productive but to be conscious, I could consider a perfectly well spent day even if I just lazed in bed, but i would need to be able to even think about stuff, watch the ceiling or just feel the sheets on my hands.

With how little time I have on this planet and all the possible experiences, I would definitely do without sleeping if I could.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:43AM (#25251282)
What if you could be twice as efficient, aware, productive in your waking hours, but it "cost" you another 2 hours of sleep? Would you do it then?
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by licebmi__at__ on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @07:44PM (#25272029)
I don't think I could buy that. It's not about efficiency or productiveness, it's about being. At this level, I don't even care about accomplishing stuff, just existing is fine. It's more like a fear of the darkness and the lack of consciousness when I'm asleep, that's why I framed it as a FOMO.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by graeme on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:27PM (#25249854)
> Whenever I feel tired, I lay down to rest. >Whenever I am sleeping, I allow myself to sleep until I am "fully slept", meaning I can lay there for a while, still physically resting, and not fall asleep.

Do you mean in the day you rest, and you sleep at night? Or you mean you might sleep four hours in the day and four at night?

Not sure if the first line means rest in the sense of cat sleep, or actual sleep.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:44PM (#25249948)
I think every time of day has its beauty and advantage, so I generally don't follow a strict sleeping schedule.

Recently, thanks to my living circumstances, I generally stay up working through the night until sunrise, then sleep until about noon or a couple hours past, get up and start my day, do a couple hours of work, take a break for a walk, do some housework and socializing, and then around midnight, plus or minus midnight, start getting into working.

Throughout the day, I may feel tired, and that's when I take a break and lay down, sometimes cat-napping, sometimes dog-sleeping, and sometimes taking a legit nap.

Other times I may follow a "neo-traditional" schedule of getting up early in the morning and going to bed early-ish at night, maybe with a nap or two thrown in.

I may go to bed at dusk and then get up for a couple hours in the night, as people used to do commonly before artificial lighting.

If I am camping, it depends on the weather. In colder weather, there's a major advantage to sleeping during the day in that the sun keeps you warm. It's easier to stay warm through the night's cold awake and alert than tired and asleep.

If the weather is nice around the clock and there's plenty to do, I may only sleep a couple hours a night, the excitement of new experiences carrying me. Rainy or gray weather typically means sleeping more.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by rapind on Sunday November 29, 2020 @10:44PM (#25250520)
I did something very similar for a few years before I had kids. It was great! (So is being a father of course) unfortunately I can’t find a way to make it work as a Dad, as everything is so scheduled now. Hopefully when they’re older I can get back into it. It definitely worked well for me too.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:16AM (#25251177)
Thank you for encouragement.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by Reflecticon on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:37AM (#25251254)
Love it! You are light-years ahead of me. I recently came up with analogy of pet sleep, like you said, cats and dogs just sleep here and there if the feel like it. I tried to implement that on my weekends but wasn't very successful so far.

How do you keep your sleep rhythms while you're working?

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:40AM (#25251263)
I work whenever not sleeping or otherwise occupied.

I've set a goal for myself of one commit daily, and I usually overshoot.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by justsomeuser on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:00PM (#25249699)
I always seem to need between 12 and 15 hours sleep, which makes life difficult as I do not fit into the normal 9-5 schedule.

I do not understand how people can live off 7 hours of sleep each night. It seems a big advantage though - they have 5 hours more per day.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by hutzlibu on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:28PM (#25250182)
I met people who slept never more than 5 hours. Each to his own I guess. Some maybe do not need as much but those people probably payed for it later. But if you really need 12-15 hours constantly you might actually have some condition that could be treated.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by tubularhells on Monday November 30, 2020 @05:45AM (#25252476)
And a higher risk of cancer, dementia, diabetes.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by random3 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:16PM (#25248596)
How are you measuring "improved cognition, better health and overall feeling"?
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:39PM (#25248746)
It's just an overall sense of being able to remember things, think several consecutive thoughts through, clarity when programming, ability to stay attentive and on track, social ability, and so on.

Also, I used to be very depressed all the time, and now it rarely happens.

I've experienced many different layers of both cognitive health and cognitive impairment, and I also practice mindfulness, so I am able to assess this pretty well.

I have something to compare to: I used to be able to program all day every day when I was younger. I've also had several instances of TBI. I've had times when I tried to follow a schedule which didn't work for me for both corporate jobs and startups. I've been depressed and at peace, in love and with a broken heart. All of these things can be helpful or debilitating, or even both.

I compare my assessments in comparison with all of these different experiences.

The difference between my current practice and getting 8 hours a day on a schedule is... I don't even know how to describe it.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by rubicon33 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:12PM (#25249778)
And to what do you attribute these changes?

It sounds like changing your sleep was THE factor?

Or were there other things? I know people who have dramatically changed their diet, and espoused similar life changing revelations... Almost word for word, to what you're describing.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:57PM (#25250015)
Sleep is probably the largest factor. There are a few others.

The second most impactful factor for me has been meditation and general spiritual development. I have conditioned myself to practice attention to breath meditation several times per day for anywhere from half a minute to several minutes.

Whenever I notice myself stressed, annoyed, waiting, rushing, indecisive, and in other circumstances where mental clarity would help, I return my attention to breath. I've been practicing this for several years, and have experienced tremendous benefits.

For example, I have been able to largely unwire my annoyance reaction. I just don't become annoyed at things anymore. Crying babies, repetitive sounds, squeaky noises, arrogant or childish people, waiting for someone who's late, running late myself, and so on. It just doesn't bother me, no more than the Earth rotating around its axis.

Of course, if a program steals focus or a site is forcing me to use JS, or my [redacted] news feed is in some random fucking indecipherable sort order, it still annoys me. But that's my passion domain, and I project all those things as potentially happening in my software if I'm not careful, so I let it happen as a way of keeping myself sharp and vigilant.

Diet-wise, I avoid processed food and tobacco, which are my addictions. I've never been much of a drinker, but I've cut alcohol out almost entirely, even the occasional sip of vodka or half a bottle of beer I used to have. I attended several AA meetings recently, and it was a clarifying and eye-opening experience, and I just can't see alcohol the same way anymore.

I still love weed, but no longer regularly. I used to be a wake and bake, all day every day, no such thing as too much weed smoker.

Based on my prior psychedelic experience, I think I could have achieved many of these changes much quicker with the occasional acid trip, but I haven't found the right set and setting in a while.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by melq on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:27PM (#25248674)
I don't think you need to measure having a better overall feeling. If someone says they feel poorly then they feel poorly. Suppose there was some object way to measure such a thing, what are you going to do with that metric? Imagine being depressed and going to the doctor only for them to say, "no you're not, look at this metric!".
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by mathattack on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:01AM (#25250883)
Was it hard to get your life to shift around your sleep patterns? (If you sleep in and skip a bunch of meetings without notice or miss your kids soccer game)

Conceptually you are on to something. Pushing exhaustion isn’t smart.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:14AM (#25251170)
It was challenging, but at some point I realized that if I didn't prioritize my health and sustainability of my existence, no one else would do it for me.

All those meetings and deadlines and business software would mean nothing.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by chordalkeyboard on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:00PM (#25250027)
> Of course, I have several other practices to thank for this, in addition to the sleep.

I would like to hear these other practices as well. I think your sleep practices are sound and derived from a solid theoretical basis.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:18AM (#25251186)
In short: meditation, clean water, much tea, unprocessed natural food, regular natural exercise, not sitting in the same position too long, mindful intention, devoted study and marvel of universe.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by asdf333 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:31PM (#25248703)
you do not sound like you have kids. if you do, how do you possibly achieve this with kids.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:22AM (#25251204)
I think with kids it's not possible, have to make some sacrifices. I think it's important to have multiple full-time caretakers.
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by drclau on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:45PM (#25248794)
How do you handle noise? Do you live in a house or apartment building?
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by stevewodil on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:09PM (#25249382)
If you have trouble with noise try getting a white noise machine to drown out the other noises. I have upstairs neighbors and my bedroom is attached to the kitchen here, so there's often quite a bit of noise. The white noise machine has helped a lot for me.

I didn't like it at first but got used to it eventually

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @06:49PM (#25249249)
My living arrangements vary. If there is noise, I wake up and then go back to sleep. If it keeps repeating, I gradually get used to it and it doesn't wake me anymore.

I surely sometimes have to get up when I don't want to, it just happens less often than it used to, every couple days or weeks rather than every morning.

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by drclau on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:10PM (#25249387)
Thanks for answering. One more question, how about eating? Do you allow for some time before sleeping, as a rule?
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:18PM (#25249443)
I try to not eat for an hour or two before bed, but it doesn't often work out that way. In many places, I have food available to me around the clock in nearly unlimited quantities, which I also think is not natural and potentially harmful, but them's the breaks.

When I wake up, I usually don't eat for several hours, nor do I have any desire to, as my digestive system is still "booting up". I have heard countless times from various wise beings that drinking a glass of clean water after waking up is very beneficial, so I do that. Sometimes it is yesterday's tea, though.

My ideal eating technique is once a day, and then maybe a few light snacks here and there. It's to avoid processed food, meaning anything which I didn't see its original form of and wasn't prepared by someone I know, whether it is grinding up or mixing, and to avoid things with multiple ingredients.

However, because I co-exist with others who are not as far along as me, I stray from this quite a bit. I partially alleviate it with occasional water fasting to give myself a chance to clear out the junk.

(When I say "natural", it's shorthand for "how our life was for millions of years and what evolution tuned our bodies for".)

Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:54AM (#25251319)
I want to add: if tired enough, noise doesn't matter. I've slept on subway platforms with trains going past a few meters away, and tight enough to not notice my shit get stolen ))
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by throwawayamzn1 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @10:36PM (#25250486)
What are your other practices, I love this pre-industrial modality
Re:Sleep duration is associated with brain structure and cog... by forgotmypw17 on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:20AM (#25251194)
I've written a few comments in this tree, please let me know if you'd like to know anything else I haven't mentioned.