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Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ogre_codes on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:51AM (#24870789)
> Another example of such uninspired CEO that keeps making good quarters but tarnishes his company advantages is Tim Cook. I can't wait for him to be replaced.

Comments like this make zero sense to me. Apple might be better if Jobs was still alive. But without a time machine, and potentially better medicine, that's not an option.

Under Cook Apple:

- Increased profitability and market share massively.

- Created the most successful watch brand in the world.

- Turned Beats into Beats + AirPods, the two most successful headphone brands in the world.

- Massively increased Mac, iPhone, iPad, install base.

- Avoided the sort of ridiculous cash burning acquisitions to inflate growth Ballmer was guilty of.

Apple has a bunch of mis-steps under Cook, but none of them have had long term company damaging impact. Many of the things people beat Cook up over were actually things Jobs was as bad/ worse with. For example almost all the App Store policies everyone hates were created under Jobs. Jobs was also far more protective and litigious.

Cook isn't Jobs, since Jobs is dead the comparison is pointless. Cook has done better than the vast majority of CEOs who have taken over successful brands. Apple is doing just fine.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by zebra100 on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:20PM (#24871728)
+1. I'm far from an Apple zealot, but Tim Cook added $1.7 Trillion to apple's market cap since taking over as chief executive. He certainly isn't the product visionary that Jobs was, but a rare few are. IMO Cook may have even been a better executer than Jobs, even if his decisions are more risk averse. And he has still taken a few notable ones – e.g. Apple's recent shift to services revenue (news, music, card, etc) was a surprisingly smooth & fast success. Barring some huge future misstep, I'd be surprised if he didn't go down as one of history's most successful company leaders in his own right.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by admax88q on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:57PM (#24872085)
I don't really have a horse in this race, but I'm not sure that the best defense against

> Another example of such uninspired CEO that keeps making good quarters but tarnishes his company advantages is Tim Cook.

is

> but Tim Cook added $1.7 Trillion to apple's market cap since taking over as chief executive.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by whynotminot on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:43PM (#24872502)
Good thing that's not the only feather in Tim's cap. He's vastly expanded Apple's valuation while simultaneously introducing new, successful products, and growing Apple's place in the tech world.

Steve was visionary, but Tim has taken that vision farther than anyone ever gives him credit for.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by fakedang on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:55PM (#24873280)
Most of the stuff was in development during Jobs' time, including Airpods, the latest one. With Jony Ive gone, I doubt Apple has the prowess to continue that finesse. It would be akin to von Holzhausen leaving Tesla, imo.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ogre_codes on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:27PM (#24873711)
> Most of the stuff was in development during Jobs' time,

We're 10 years past Jobs and Cook was running quite a bit of Apple even before Jobs passed away. Not even Jobs is prescient enough to have predicted where the market would have gone this far out. He was good at being where the puck was going, but he didn't have a crystal ball.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by amluto on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:26PM (#24873694)
I think it may be the other way around. In the Jony Ive post-Steve-Jobs era, we got the iPhones 6-11, and, in my opinion, all of them are considerably worse physical designs than the 5. Now Apple has (imminently) the 12 and 12 Mini, which are, IMO, the best designs from Apple in years.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by temp667 on Friday October 23, 2020 @05:07PM (#24874182)
I'm very excited about the 12 mini, after being blah on many before. iphone 1 was my first iphone so have been around for a while. Don't see the point of 5G, Jobs used to actually really delay introducing some of the new tech until it was ready, I'd have been fine if they'd waited a year on that but...
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by stonogo on Friday October 23, 2020 @07:54PM (#24875662)
What new products? The iPhone and iPads I use today are materially the same things as the ones I had half a decade ago. The only new products that come to mind are airpods and the Watch, and I credit Tim Cook with those, but I can't think of anything else.

Apple's valuation doesn't do me any good (or ill!) as a customer. I feel like there are a lot more bugs in Mac OS than there were in the past, and I'd happily trade Apple's market cap for a return to confident OS upgrades.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by stjohnswarts on Saturday October 24, 2020 @01:57AM (#24877265)
Other than earpods, I'm not sure what they person above you is talking about. All the stuff started and matured under Jobs and otherwise Apple made some good company buys with beats, etc. Cook is a great CEO, but he's not a visionary, Apple needs to find one of those as well.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by Terretta on Saturday October 24, 2020 @09:48AM (#24879208)
> shift to services revenue (news, music, card, etc) was a surprisingly smooth & fast success

After having purchased most every iPhone release since launch, with the prior model gifted to family, this year we switched to iPhone-as-a-Service subscription on the Apple Card.

Post shift, Apple moves me out of making a $1300 buying evaluation decision to simply ‘staying current’ for forty bucks a month for the flagship model.

This was available for a while, took a while to break through my sense I should “own” my device each year instead of subscribe to it, but the mental stress of buying new and reselling old, inevitably ending up with some in a drawer (iPhone 6s anyone?) ... the subscription is hassle free for me, recurring revenue for Tim, and shockingly well priced given the convenience.

Imagine what their numbers would look like to Wall Street if he could turn most of their hardware buyers into subscribers...

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by microtherion on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:11PM (#24871642)
Agree with all of this. I also think Cook should get credit for the Apple Pay / Apple Card ecosystem, and for Car Play.

In addition, under Cook, Apple also made great strides in ecological manufacturing and supplier accountability. And early on, Cook had the courage to fire a highly visible but toxic executive.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by varispeed on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:07PM (#24872177)
> Apple also made great strides in ecological manufacturing and supplier accountability

Do you have evidence of that? It seems like it is quite the opposite. Apple prefer to destroy not working phones or Macs instead of repairing them. They make sure independent repair shops cannot repair any of their products and design them in a way so that they fail in short space of time, so customers can either pay for repair through the nose or buy a new Mac.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by microtherion on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:29PM (#24872376)
See e.g. the annual reports in https://www.apple.com/environment/ regarding environmental responsibility and the graphs in https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/ regarding improvements in supplier responsibility.

Even Greenpeace acknowledges quite a bit of progress in many respects: https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/GG... — keep in mind that they used to picket Apple annual meetings. Admittedly, they still have plenty of criticisms, and several of them echo yours.

Personally, I think "designed to fail" is a downright false charge, and "repairability" is a trickier trade-off than repair advocates make it out to be — how much weight, size, and fragility does the repairability add, and how often is the device in fact repaired?

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by papaf on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:17PM (#24873561)
Personally, I think "designed to fail" is a downright false charge, and "repairability" is a trickier trade-off than repair advocates make it out to be ...

Somebody should tell the UK Parliament, they need some feedback and Apple cannot spare anybody to clear up this "downright false charge" :

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/62/environmental-...

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by microtherion on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:31PM (#24873754)
I don't see "designed to fail" or any corresponding language on that page.

There is concern about repairability there. I seem to recall that the UK was a member of a trans-national organization that recently passed tougher repairability legislation, and quit that organization to be rid of all that burdensome regulation.

For the life of me, I can't understand why Apple wouldn't take the UK seriously…

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by papaf on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:49PM (#24873983)
Specifically, the EAC is keen to obtain information on what Apple is doing to enhance the operating life of its products ...
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by microtherion on Friday October 23, 2020 @05:41PM (#24874548)
Failing to enhance the operating life of the products (or failing to talk about it to a parliamentary commission) != designing such products to fail.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by codebolt on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:17PM (#24872823)
Perhaps there has been an improvement in other parts of the supply chain, but the situation in DR Congo (where e.g. coltan used for capacitors is mined) seems to only be getting worse.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by microtherion on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:23PM (#24873643)
Apple specifically used to call out the DR Congo as one area where their supply chain responsibility was not yet up to their standards, but in recent years, they claim to have established an audited supply chain: https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-Conf...

(I'm going by Apple's own claims here, would be interested to hear whether you have information contradicting these claims).

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by papaf on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:48PM (#24873974)
Did the child labour lawsuit [1] get settled? I think your link is describing audited Smelters and Refiners. The kids work in the Cobalt mines and Apple is one of the biggest consumers of Cobalt in the world.

[1] https://industryeurope.com/5-tech-giants-sued-over-use-of-ch...

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by microtherion on Friday October 23, 2020 @06:31PM (#24875011)
As far as Wikipedia knows, that lawsuit is still pending (it would be extremely early for an US lawsuit of that complexity with that many defendants to settle).

The complaint [1] is interesting and disturbing. But I'm not convinced it's entirely in good faith. It spends a lot of time expounding on the DRC's sordid history (Whatever you want to blame Apple for, they had nothing to do with King Leopold). It cites extensively from Amnesty's 2016 report on conditions in Cobalt mining [2], but entirely fails to mention Amnesty's 2017 followup report [3] that credits many of the defendants (especially Apple) of having taken significant steps in the right direction since 2016. And the complaint appears to dismiss any positive measures taken by the defendants merely as evidence that their prior bad conduct was knowing.

Of course, a company improving their conduct does not mean they cannot be found liable for their earlier conduct, but I would not take this complaint as an objective assessment of the defendants' current cobalt sourcing practices.

[1] http://iradvocates.org/sites/iradvocates.org/files/stamped%2...

[2] https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/AFR6231832016ENGL...

[3] https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/AFR6273952017ENGL...

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by atlasunshrugged on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:43PM (#24873102)
Do you mean the situation generally in the DRC or specifically in the mines? Any articles/relevant links?
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by reissbaker on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:58PM (#24873309)
+1. Apple isn't the same as it was under Steve Jobs, but it's stayed successful and relevant. I miss the old Apple software quality — the Apple apps were once a reason to use macOS or iOS, and it's pretty rare I actually use them anymore — and the stronger hardware innovation (Watch is cool but not industry-defining on the scale of the iPod, the iPhone, and the iPad), but the overall Apple ecosystem has if anything grown stronger under Cook... And their edge on hardware has grown significantly, especially with respect to chip design, to the point where their in-house-designed ARM chips are likely to give them not only a generational advantage on phones, which they already have, but also soon on laptops and desktops as well. Apple under Tim Cook isn't going to wow the world with innovative new products to the same degree it did under Steve Jobs, but its product lines will relentlessly improve and Apple will in many ways stay ahead of the competition because Tim is a great operator. I can't say the same for Ballmer: not only did Microsoft innovate less successfully under his leadership than Apple has under Cook (at least Cook has Watch and Airpods!), but also Microsoft's cash cow product lines didn't do well under his leadership — Windows 8, for example, was a travesty.

That being said I'm also very impressed with Satya Nadella, and have recently been using Windows more and more again, something I thought would be pretty unlikely (to put it mildly) a decade ago when Ballmer was at the helm. I'm pretty excited about future products from both companies.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by godelmachine on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:03PM (#24870919)
>>potentially better medicine

Jobs refused conventional treatment to treat his cancer until it was too late. He placed heavy emphasis on oriental mysticism.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by FreeFull on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:14PM (#24871042)
While that's true, pancreatic cancer is nasty enough that even with prompt treatment, there was a good chance he'd succumb to it anyway, although he'd definitely have way better chances.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by baldfat on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:54PM (#24871455)
His cancer was the least deadly of the cancers and with treatment he would have lived much longer. My mom had stage one pancreatic cancer 4 years ago and she is still alive today and cancer free for over four years. So it is possible.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by microtherion on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:13PM (#24871670)
FWIW, Jobs was diagnosed in 2003, so he lived another 8 years after his initial diagnosis.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by jonny_eh on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:36PM (#24871874)
Which says to me that he was a good candidate for real treatment.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by stjohnswarts on Saturday October 24, 2020 @02:03AM (#24877284)
Yeah, I'm not sure how such an intelligent person could get suckered in by that mumbo jumbo. I guess one can be a savante in some things and dumb as a rock at others.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by Beldin on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:10PM (#24871633)
There's pancreatic cancer and cancer of the pancreas. (There might be more, i know about these two). The difference in life expectancy is staggering. One is basically starting the clock (in months to a handful of years), with the other, recovery is possible.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by AtlasBarfed on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:41PM (#24873879)
Pancreatic cancer essentially forms a barrier around the cancer that prevents drugs from reaching the tumors as I understood layman's descriptions of the disease when one of my friends died of it.

I think there was some initial success in attaching vitamin d to some drugs to bypass the "firewall", but it was still hard.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by dralley on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:58PM (#24871486)
The specific kind of pancreatic cancer that Jobs had was not very aggressive, unlike the majority of pancreatic cancers.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by projektfu on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:25PM (#24871784)
IIRC, he had insulinoma, which is a rather slow cancer. I’m not sure if treatment beyond surgery would have prolonged his life, as 10 year survival is around 30%.

Pancreatic adenocarcinoma is the fast killer.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ogre_codes on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:12PM (#24871008)
There is a lot of conjecture about Jobs death, I try to avoid delving into speculation too much.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by microtherion on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:33PM (#24871849)
> Avoided the sort of ridiculous cash burning acquisitions to inflate growth

It's funny how Apple has often been exhorted by industry observers to make large acquisitions, and instead has done quite well with smaller ones. Beats has been a commercial success. PA Semi (dating back to the Jobs era) was the foundation to a hugely successful VLSI design division. The success of Siri is a bit more disputed, but it's playing an important role in many products.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ogre_codes on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:56PM (#24872071)
This is exactly why I mentioned it, Microsoft burned through 10s of billions in bad acquisitions, Google has a few massive multi-billion dollar mis-steps.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by varispeed on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:05PM (#24872163)
Apple under Tim enjoy short term gains and greed has blinded them. The company will soon start failing because of their anti-consumer and anti-environment culture. They create false image of themselves to be super friendly innovative brand for creative people, but the truth is far from this. Their products are designed to fail and to be only repairable by Apple. If your charging port dies on a new Mac, you cannot repair it yourself even if you have all required tools and skills. Their policy is essentially if it breaks you have to pay us through the nose or buy a new model. Then there is the anti-competitive Apple Store that is milking the iOS ecosystem and developers.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by supernova87a on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:28PM (#24876712)
Sounds like you've got an axe to grind with Apple though, and are biased negatively because of it.

Apple's products are demonstrably supported in software far longer than other manufacturers. People rate the physical build quality of their products very high as well.

It seems that people like the benefits and features of Apple hardware enough to overlook the problems with self-repairability.

And regarding the app store, maybe because you're in the industry you think it's a generally big problem, because you're affected. But it's a 1% privilege issue to most of the world.

It seems Apple is doing enough right that its value is climbing.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by stjohnswarts on Saturday October 24, 2020 @02:07AM (#24877304)
Yeah I don't like the walled garden myself, but the hardware I've bought from them has been well designed, supported for quite some time, and trustworthy. I never even had to get anything repaired. My line of work requires me to have both Linux and Apple machines and Apple is working just fine along with Linux.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by D-Coder on Friday October 23, 2020 @10:28PM (#24876439)
"Apple Doomed!"

I have seen that headline every year since 1984. Every single year.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by necovek on Sunday October 25, 2020 @08:59AM (#24885957)
Well, at a point it was pretty doomed before iTunes and iPod (and Jobs) brought it back. Who's to say it won't happen again?

Though with the size and cash reserves, it's more likely they get "doomed" the way Microsoft was in the last 10 years (still is, perhaps).

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by Terretta on Saturday October 24, 2020 @09:52AM (#24879223)
Effectively nobody (measured as a percentage of buyers) wants to repair it themselves.

Remember when TV and radio repair shops were a thing? RadioShack in the US or Tandy in Europe? Kids these days don’t...

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by sys_64738 on Friday October 23, 2020 @07:42PM (#24875602)
Apple lost its way when they shoved Scott Forstall out the door for refusing to take the blame for the Apple Maps debacle. Apple has been gliding on the backs of Steve's vision since then and they're terrified to make any wrong decision. That's why they overlap generations of products as they don't have a clue what will succeed.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ksec on Friday October 23, 2020 @10:40PM (#24876506)
> Apple has been gliding on the backs of Steve's vision since then and they're terrified to make any wrong decision.

That has been some of my view as well. But some of their approach have changed.

The old Apple was about making something great, charge a premium. That is about the same with current Apple. Except its whole Services Strategy reeks of money grabbing. There is nothing about Apple Music, Apple TV+, Apple Fitness that fits the definition of great.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ogre_codes on Saturday October 24, 2020 @12:27PM (#24880164)
> There is nothing about Apple Music, Apple TV+, Apple Fitness that fits the definition of great.

I'm not sure how you'd consider Apple Music a money grab but are ok with iTunes music purchases? Basically they were expanding their business to follow the industry trend of streaming music instead of buying it. iTunes has been a revenue stream at Apple since the iPod was born.

Also, Apple selling supplemental services and software that are... not amazing is not new either.

The big one? iTunes. For a few years it was great, but for a long long time it was just a giant mess. iHome, iMovie (Garage Band is pretty rad), iPhoto (Photos is way better), Mobile Me, Ping didn't even last 2 years I don't think. Most of those products were meh at best, they did the basic thing they needed to do and that's about it.

The big difference between Apple then and Apple now is they have the money to contract out for their own content.

> Apple TV+, Apple Fitness that fits the definition of great.

Apple TV+ has a paltry selection because they didn't go out and buy a huge external library of content to bootstrap themselves. The content they have is—Decent and getting better. They know this and there is a reason they aren't really charging for it yet.

Apple Fitness doesn't even exist so not sure how you can criticize it.

Yeah, it's all a "Money Grab", they are growing the business, that's what companies do. Fortunately all of this stuff is optional. You can enjoy your computer/ phone/ tablet without any of it. IMO the only egregious "money grab" is their paltry 5GB free iCloud storage. Considering that's the best and for many only way of backing up their $1000 phone with their life stored on it, that's messed up.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by mellosouls on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:23PM (#24871763)
Beats + AirPods, the two most successful headphone brands in the world

How are you working out "most successful"? Beats aren't rated particularly highly apart from by label-followers; while blinkeredness has always been a notable criticism of Apple product appraisal, it did in the past occasionally lead the field - that's not at all obvious with Beats etc.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ogre_codes on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:44PM (#24871962)
> How are you working out "most successful"?

Sales. How else do you measure success of a consumer electronics product?

> Beats aren't rated particularly highly apart from by label-followers

While Beats haven't been highly rated by audiophiles, they are popular and sound quality and in particular Bluetooth performance has improved significantly under Apple.

AirPods... well they are AirPods. They are might well be the most universally loved product in Apple's product line right now. Maybe the most loved consumer electronics product on the market right now.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by mellosouls on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:38PM (#24872469)
Sales. How else do you measure success of a consumer electronics product?

There are clearly many measures of success. It's best if you mean best-selling maybe just to say that, as it may be important to salespeople but not so much to (say) end users.

[Airpods...]Maybe the most loved consumer electronics product on the market right now.

That sounds more like a subjective or emotional claim than one measurable, and that's part of the problem with Apple in particular (though not only Apple) as I've already mentioned; the seeming lack of ability of its champions to consider it's products in a reasonably neutral way.

To an extent, that's a compliment to the way it has built it's brand over time, but it means it's important to bear it in mind when judging rather sweeping superiority claims.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ogre_codes on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:18PM (#24872831)
> That sounds more like a subjective or emotional claim than one measurable, and that's part of the problem with Apple in particular (though not only Apple) as I've already mentioned; the seeming lack of ability of its champions to consider it's products in a reasonably neutral way.

People have been spewing nonsense like this for decades. As if customers being happy with a product is a worthless concept.

The AirPods are successful because people love them. When AirPods were first launched, they were widely panned and people laughed at the design, but everyone who bought them loved them. I could go into details about why, but it's irrelevant, if they hadn't been so well liked, they wouldn't be the best selling headphones on the market.

See also, Apple Watch.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by mellosouls on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:56PM (#24873295)
People have been spewing nonsense like this for decades.

More emotion.

As if customers being happy with a product is a worthless concept.

No, customers not being able to look at things with a reasonable sense of perspective and ability to judge things reasonably impartially is to be borne in mind when considering sweeping claims. Somewhat different.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ksec on Friday October 23, 2020 @10:31PM (#24876452)
That is the same argument with Microsoft in the 90s. Windows are selling great, they have great Market Share etc....

Steve Jobs: We are still Better!

Bill Gates: Does it Matter?

Time will tell.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ogre_codes on Saturday October 24, 2020 @12:18AM (#24876903)
Just an aside. Steve Jobs was only CEO of Apple for a few months in 97,98,& 99. The rest of the 90s he was running NEXT & Pixar after getting the boot from Apple in the 80s.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by j-pb on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:38PM (#24871287)
We're a 40 person Design agency, that has been running on Mac hardware for almost 40 years now.

Everybody of us used to be a huge apple fanboy, now every one of us hates them with a passion.

They completely ignored their customers for the iPhone money grab. Their hardware and software used to be synonymous with quality, nowadays their shoddy quality has become a meme at work.

"Oops reboot." - "What did you expect, it's a mac."

We're looking for the door, and slowly started to introduce windows machines. We were shocked how fast computers got without apple catching up.

Apple used to he one of the pillars of our productivy, nowadays it's a liability.

And from a developer perspective, they murdered their own App ecosystem.

Mac software used to be really really good. But who do you expect to write great apps for 70ct per sale. That's just ridiculous. Also, why should I get an iPad pro, if I can't even write software on it.

They could've dominated the PC market if iPad Os was actually a real OS.

I doubt that apple can keep its brand relevant without opinion leaders like design professionals.

I mean, c'mon, even Ive left.

Apple is dead, it's only a matter of time for the rot to bring it down.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ogre_codes on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:20PM (#24871727)
> I doubt that apple can keep its brand relevant without opinion leaders like design professionals.

I know a fair number of developers and most of them still use Macs. Not because they are fan boys, but because MacOS still sucks less than Windows.

For me and likely many, OS choice is a pragmatic thing and for the moment MacOS is the least bad option. It's going to be interesting seeing what happens with the new CPUs which have the potential to push the Mac ahead of the pack in terms of price/ performance as well.

> I mean, c'mon, even Ive left.

Ive is 54 years old. He's was at Apple for ~26 years when he left. I have no idea how wealthy he is at this point, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's a billionaire based on his position and likely large stock option grants in the 00s.

You are a designer, how many years would you put in cranking out designs for mass consumption consumer electronics after you were a many times over millionaire? How many black aluminium iPhones would you design? Another 40 years worth?

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by fakedang on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:04PM (#24873407)
And I know a fair amount of devs who are forced to use Mac hardware because of Apple restricting dev and testing environments to the MacOS. Says a lot when a developer recommended me to use a Linux+Hackintosh (I'm not from a dev background).

About your last point, it would be every designer's dream to work in a company with as powerful a brand as Apple, with as big a war chest and as global a reach for massive adoption. Yet Ive left, perhaps due to feeling that Apple has drained itself of ideas and doesn't have any concrete plans in future. FWIW, most of its recent products were envisioned when Jobs was alive.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by indemnity on Friday October 23, 2020 @08:39PM (#24875906)
I’m a developer, I use a Mac, it’s still the best Unix laptop out there.

But I have a Ryzen 3950X desktop with a real GPU (RTX 2080) running Windows and Linux, for when I am not portable.

Same dotfiles for all, any operating system these days has the terminal + browser story covered, if you then use VS Code and languages like Go or Rust, you don’t really need to care what the OS is.

Getting religious over any one platform is a waste of time IMO.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by fakedang on Saturday October 24, 2020 @02:16AM (#24877336)
Well I use Windows and Linux currently, with a hackintosh for macOS after a bad spell with a Mac. I find the Linux OS to be the best for programming, since it just runs everything like a breeze. Windows is what I use for Office since macOS office is clunky and I'm locked in to the Windows shortcuts.

The issue with Macs for me is not the usability of the OS (apart from the lock in that Apple tried to do), but because of its irreparability. Spilt a few dropfuls water on your PC while using? Tough luck, gotta go to the Apple Care centre and wait till they fix it in a week or more. Meanwhile once I accidentally spilt water on my ThinkPad, I just disconnected everything, left it to dry for a day and voila! All of my data was preserved, no issues at all. Another time, I accidentally dropped the ThinkPad from my desk, yet it still works as good as new. Even if some issue were to happen to it, I can be assured of getting out-of-warranty support anywhere in the world - heck, I've had an old Dell repaired at the bloke's who runs a computer shop in my grandfather's village in rural India.

Another gripe I have is with Mac's updates. People complain about Windows updates, but it just takes an hour or two tops if it's a big one, and can be done on restart. Compare that to Mac - last year, Catalina took more than 10 hours on my Mac. Those are wasted hours of productivity, and it's always the same story with Mac every year.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by 1123581321 on Wednesday October 28, 2020 @12:28AM (#24915226)
A typical Catalina upgrade was closer to 30 minutes for our computers at work. 10 hours suggests some kind of problem.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by arvinsim on Friday October 23, 2020 @10:48PM (#24876545)
Funny, its the MacOS apologists that usually are religious about their OS.

Gamers who use Windows and devs using Unix seem not to mind.

As an aside, I have almost the same setup as you(just waiting for the 5950x). Probably the most bang for buck setup for devs.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by j-pb on Saturday October 24, 2020 @03:14AM (#24877530)
> but because MacOS still sucks less than Windows.

I completely agree that it's still less bad, but look at the language you're using. It's not that MacOS is a great platform, it's just less bad than the other options. It had a great starting position from which it declines. It's a lot worse than it used to be and it continues to decline, so the trend and outcome are clear.

> How many black aluminium iPhones would you design? Another 40 years worth?

EXACTLY!

The iPhone is now 14 years old. The iPod lasted 6 years until it got replaced with the iPhone.

Apples great advantage used to be that they competed with themselves. It was the Macintosh Team vs. the Rest of Apple for example. The Macintosh was allowed to completely cannibalise all other Machines, the iPhone was allowed to completely canibalise the iPod, the iMac replaced the Cube and was allowed to completely cannibalise most tower macs.

They didn't create a huge product portfolio trying to balance features so that they all sell equally well, crippling some for the survival of others (e.g. where's the iPad Pro with XCode, or a MacBook with LTE). They tried to make the best product that would revolutionise the markets, even if it would kill their other products. Because the Products were front and center, not the profits.

If apple was still apple, we wouldn't have Macbooks anymore. We'd all use iPad Pros with proper software and keyboards that can balance them on your laps.

We probably wouldn't use iPhones either, we'd simply have Airpods, an appleWatch, and an optional larger screen that you slide into your shirt pocket or your wallet, or carry as a pocket mirror. Doing 90% of interactions through Siri (which is also 8 years old now, ancient by computer standards, still worse than what it used to be, because apple wants to save money on compute).

Why would Ive leave if he had the power to shape that future.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by outworlder on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:06PM (#24871587)
> Everybody of us used to be a huge apple fanboy, now every one of us hates them with a passion.

Neither of these extremes are healthy attitudes. It's a company, making machines. That's all there is to it.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by cutler on Friday October 23, 2020 @09:03PM (#24876025)
That's a gross oversimplification. If Apple were just another Dell turning out machines you'd have a point but Apple, above all else, is an aesthetic brand designed to inspire passion. It's like comparing Ruby with Java. Ruby appeals to the developer's aesthetic, inspring passion in its community. Java does not.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by moolcool on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:19PM (#24871092)
Those bullet points mostly focus on scaling existing products, and seem more Ballmer-like than Nadella-like IMO.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ogre_codes on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:38PM (#24871284)
Airpods/ Beats/ Watch is a $25 Billion/ year business with 40%/ YoY growth. Neither product existed when Jobs was alive.

That's something Nadella hasn't even managed, let alone Ballmer.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by jayd16 on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:13PM (#24871662)
Azure seems to have made $12B in Q3 2020 and that didn't exist when Jobs was alive.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ogre_codes on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:22PM (#24871753)
So Nadella is half as effective as Cook?

More seriously, I shouldn't have put the comparison to Nadella in there at all. They are both great CEOs.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by cryptica on Friday October 23, 2020 @06:27PM (#24874979)
Exactly, Satya Nadella is an awesome leader. Who is to say Tim Cook could have taken all these difficult challenges which MSFT was facing at the time? It's 100% speculation.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ogre_codes on Friday October 23, 2020 @10:41PM (#24876510)
> Who is to say Tim Cook could have taken all these difficult challenges which MSFT was facing at the time?

Cook probably wouldn't have ever been a good fit for Microsoft. His expertise is in physical products logistics.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by jayd16 on Friday October 23, 2020 @06:40PM (#24875092)
Look again. Quarterly vs yearly numbers.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ogre_codes on Friday October 23, 2020 @10:39PM (#24876502)
You've missed the point here. This isn't a zero sum game.

Nadella is a great CEO.

Cook is a great CEO.

They've both done a good job running their respective companies. Which is better is endlessly debatable.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by cryptica on Friday October 23, 2020 @06:24PM (#24874949)
It's important not to let our biases get in the way here. Clearly, it was Satya who turned Microsoft around. Ballmer had the opportunity for years and did nothing as the stock prices clearly show.

Since Satya took over, MSFT stock has been soaring... You can't deny the evidence. That's 100% clear

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by hartator on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:07PM (#24872178)
Hum, I think this is missing the main points. AirPods and Watches are gimmick. Nothing crazy innovative happened to the iPhones - apart the flatnessisation of iOS which in my opinion was a mistake - and Macs actually went backwards. The real Tim Cook test will be the ARM Macs. Can be game changing or it can’t sink Macs for good.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by ogre_codes on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:37PM (#24872455)
> AirPods and Watches are gimmick.

People wrote off the iPod, the iPhone, and the iPad as gimmicks. Even the Mac was written off as a toy.

It's the ultimate hubris to assume you know more than the millions of people who buy a given product and enjoy using it.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by Eduardo3rd on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:22PM (#24872298)
Gimmick or not, wearables (Watch + Airpods) are a massive business for Apple. Large enough that they would be a F500 company if spun out at current revenue numbers.

https://fortune.com/2019/08/06/apple-airpods-business/

I don't think you can characterize that as a business failure.

Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by cam0 on Friday October 23, 2020 @02:26PM (#24872347)
Yeah, hugely successful products are by definition __not__ gimmicks.
Re:How Satya Nadella turned Microsoft around by mark-r on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:39PM (#24873049)
You've obviously never heard of Pet Rocks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_Rock