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Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by alexktz on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:03AM (#24304946)
I recently purchased a 16” MBP despite significant personal concerns over the future of MacOS, being a strong open source advocate and Linux paying my mortgage.

I did this ultimately for a few reasons. MacOS lets me run Adobe (Photoshop, Lightroom, etc), Fusion360, has a good terminal (iTerm and zsh unix like shell) and Logic.

Mac hardware is still some of the best in the business, no other vendors seem to be able to catch-up. The XPS line is a great example, the battery that Dell chose to put in that laptop can’t run the internals at full power when not connected to AC. There are plenty of other comments about Thinkpads here (I have a T480s through work) and find the overall experience just fine.

The MacBook on the other hand, I use for 8+ hours every day. It’s the machine I reach for first. It sparks joy. It just works when roaming on WiFi, always. It just works with Bluetooth headphones, always. It just works with external displays, first time, every time. To put it simply, the machine gets out of my way and lets me get real work done. I can SSH to wherever I want and get ‘the Linux experience’.

My personal desktop runs Arch and KDE but for a portable, annoyingly, I still think Macs are the only way to go. But damn do I wish they had a SD card slot.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by zdragnar on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:37AM (#24305381)
I am glad that you like your macbook, but your experience has been very different from mine. It has the worst WIFI radio in a laptop that i have used; one area of my house is basically off-limits to it despite every other Wi-Fi enabled device i own working there (phones and several laptop brands).

The fancy metal case isnt properly grounded- I get occasionally a slight tingling /shock from it when I have it plugged in.

Battery life is on par, at best, with my other laptops.

Macos doesn't let me configure or change the things I want to configure or change. Some programs are usability / discoverability nightmares.

Performance of most programs is, at best, similar to linux or Win10, and is frequently worse against other machines with similar hardware.

I have used several models of MacBook and an Air, and personally will not purchase another again... I am tired of paying top dollar for a mediocre experience.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by systemvoltage on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:28PM (#24306809)
> It has the worst WIFI radio in a laptop that i have used

This is an extremely disputable claim. Wifi chipset used by Apple is by far the best in class in my experience. I have 4 laptops - ASUS, Thinkpad, HP laptop from work and MBP 16". All of them get a visit to the special room once a week at least. If we use my commode as a benchmark of wifi radio performance, when I am sitting on it and watching Monty Python, I can get every single joke with MacBookPro 16 streaming smoothly at 320p resolution. Not so much with other products of similar class.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by olyjohn on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:46PM (#24308559)
My MacBook Pro has a Broadcom BCM43xx chip in it.

What's so "best in class" about that? I don't regard Broadcom as being particularly great.

Maybe your MacBook just has a better antenna. Or it just happens to be configured in just such a way that it works better in that one room in your house.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by zdragnar on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:35PM (#24306883)
YMMV, I guess. We have a lot of wood paneling, plus the furnace is in between me and the router, so it would be understandable if the issue was universal.

My HP Spectre x360 has not had a problem with the reception once, but I can barely attend video calls or load Jira with the macbook. Likewise, my wife's chromebook and my previous surface book 2 were all perfectly happy.

That said, the Dell XPS 13 was pretty close to equally bad as the macbook, though I haven't had it in a long enough time that I've since re-arranged my sitting area- whether it actually was worse or not I'm not sure.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by organsnyder on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:02PM (#24308046)
I've had Mac wifi adapters that didn't like certain access points in the past (a specific Ubiquiti AP firmware revision circa 2014 comes to mind). Not sure that's still an issue nowadays, but you might want to make sure your AP firmware is up to date.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by saghm on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:15PM (#24308212)
> > It has the worst WIFI radio in a laptop that i have used

> This is an extremely disputable claim

I don't think it is; GP couched their assertion pretty clearly as only referring to laptops that they have used. Your personal experience doesn't really change that.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by matt-attack on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:08AM (#24305759)
If you use the charger extension that had the third prong, I’ve found that tingling to go away.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by wyclif on Friday August 28, 2020 @07:37PM (#24311660)
Or if you plug the Apple power adapter into a power strip with a circuit breaker.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by p_l on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:32PM (#24307606)
Now, if only grounded cable outside UK plugs was available more than speaking magical white crows...
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by ysleepy on Sunday August 30, 2020 @10:22AM (#24323176)
The EU plugs are all available with earth. The earthed one only at the end of the extension cord to the power brick. Both included in the box from apple.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by p_l on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:26AM (#24330313)
Please tell me where you're buying, cause I have yet to encounter an earthed plug included with Apple equipment outside of UK. Only two-pole plugs, on the brick, and getting the long cord with ground wire sometimes requires a wait time.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by 1123581321 on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:44PM (#24306988)
The radio must be faulty. You should have it looked at or replaced by Apple. They are best in class or at least better than mid-ranged laptops, if you’re only comparing to specialty PC hardware.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by zdragnar on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:57PM (#24307958)
I have used a few, and the other most recent one- a MacBook air- had the exact same issue. I wouldn't call anything I use specialty hardware, though both the go spectre and surface book 2 were, at the very least, on the high end of midrange. The Dell xps I honestly don't have much good at all to say about.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by jjtheblunt on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:49PM (#24307816)
Or an aftermarket sticker is interfering with the wifi antenna?
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by zdragnar on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:54PM (#24307903)
I definitely do not put any stickers on my laptops, and especially not ones that are not owned by me (i.e. company issued, which are the only macs I will use).
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by OriginalPenguin on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:48PM (#24308574)
Is that a real issue? A sticker is enough to impact a wifi antenna enough that people would notice?
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by jjtheblunt on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:17PM (#24310829)
I'm not sure about the impact being noticed. I thought the wifi antenna hid behind the Apple logo on some machines, but I don't remember which machines.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by inson on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:44PM (#24306975)
>It has the worst WIFI radio in a laptop that i have used;

I can confirm. I have 2019 Macbook Pro and I have problems with the wifi + overheating and occasional restarts of the mac. I had to do multiple SMC restart. I'll switch to XPS 15 with linux dual boot.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by fractalb on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:30PM (#24306826)
> I get occasionally a slight tingling /shock from it when I have it plugged in.

I always noticed it when the device was plugged in.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by cl3misch on Saturday August 29, 2020 @06:57AM (#24315237)
> The fancy metal case isnt properly grounded- I get occasionally a slight tingling /shock from it when I have it plugged in.

There have been other comments about this, but to make it clear: It's the charger that's not grounded. You will see this effect with every other laptop / charger on the market which has no ground connection in the wall socket. It comes from y capacitors [1] in the switch-mode-power-supply.

[1] http://www.vicorpower.com/resource-library/articles/back-to-...

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by thefounder on Friday August 28, 2020 @04:42PM (#24309708)
>> The fancy metal case isnt properly grounded- I get occasionally a slight tingling /shock from it when I have it plugged in.

Can confirm the issue with the latest 2 versions of MBA

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by kitsunesoba on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:41AM (#24305418)
I’ve experienced the grounding thing, but almost always only in houses with dodgy wiring. It never happens in office buildings or newer apartments. I’m not sure that is actually the MacBook’s doing.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by fsh on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:52AM (#24305587)
USB-C and proprietary laptop chargers are double insulated Class II devices. This means that the metal chassis is essentially floating and can charge up if there is some leakage in the charger circuit. I don't see any way how the wiring of the building can influence this behavior.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by kube-system on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:28PM (#24306812)
Just grabbed my multimeter -- my MagSafe MacBook has continuity from the metal chassis to the grounding lug of the power adapter. It stands to reason that a properly grounded outlet used in conjunction with the 3-prong cable would dissipate such a charge -- and potentially, a live ground could introduce a charge.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by zdragnar on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:38PM (#24306915)
I actually only notice it about 5% of the time I use it, and it is almost always plugged in at the same outlet, with the same charger (in this case, the two prong adapter). I seem to recall having tested all of the outlets in the house with an outlet tester, but it was two years ago so I'm not 100% sure.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by GekkePrutser on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:13PM (#24308186)
Here in Europe the clip on plugs (duckheads) are not grounded. The extension cord you get with the MacBook too, is. So use that.

Not sure about US. But I think it's the same as the duckheads are only 2-prong iirc so they can't possibly be grounded.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by rogual on Saturday August 29, 2020 @04:50AM (#24314727)
They don't even include the extension cord anymore.

I don't know why Apple thinks it's okay for my computer to run a current through my body. I would love to know what happened at Apple that caused this situation. It's just patently insane.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by GekkePrutser on Saturday August 29, 2020 @09:49AM (#24316077)
Oh I didn't know that, I haven't bought a Mac recently.

It's been like this since the earliest days of the metal PowerBooks. Though the un-grounded duckheads appeared only with the later models (the "hockey puck" power supply always had grounding and in fact always had an extension cord). In my house the living room sockets didn't have grounding (at that time it was only mandatory in "wet areas") so I noticed it even then.

It's mainly an issue because of the metal enclosure. On a plastic one you wouldn't notice. And it's not serious current, it's just some induction of the power transformer on the internal shielding.

But yeah I agree, even the duckheads should have proper grounding! The grounding is done through the ground 'pin' that the duckhead clips on to, so technically it should be able to get a third-party duckhead with all three pins. Though I never looked to see if they were available.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by kube-system on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:20PM (#24308292)
Yes, it's the same in the US.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by justusthane on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:30AM (#24306030)
My anecdotal experience: I’ve never noticed this with my 2014 MBP until I was at my parents’ recently, plugged into an extension cord from their garage.

With my feet on the ground, the metal body of my MacBook was “tingly” all over. Feet off the ground, no more tingling.

I’d love to better understand what was going on (and whether it’s potentially dangerous).

FWIW, I was using the Mac power cord with the ground pin. Does this just mean that the wiring in their garage isn’t properly grounded?

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by kyriakos on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:03AM (#24305713)
Electrical devices should be properly grounded to protect the user from faulty wiring though. I assume this is probably not life threatening but it could under some conditions be a fire hazard.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by jaclaz on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:42PM (#24306951)
>Electrical devices should be properly grounded to protect the user from faulty wiring though. I assume this is probably not life threatening but it could under some conditions be a fire hazard.

Not if they are double insulation/class II:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appliance_classes#Class_II

that is the whole point.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by shlant on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:15PM (#24313075)
yea I mostly only get that in places like Thailand where older houses do not have a grounded plug
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by jimbob21 on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:41PM (#24306941)
Can I get some laptop recommendations with similar specs (and most importantly battery time) as the MBP from you? I've been looking around for a new one.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by zdragnar on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:02PM (#24308043)
I had a dell xps 13, and was not at all impressed. It ran arch alright, at least.

I had a surface book 2 which was actually really nice, but broke down within 2 years, and best buy couldnt get parts to repair it anymore and just refunded the money (laptops are one of tge few things I will always pay for an extended warranty).

Currently, i use an hp spectre x360- a windows partition for gaming, and pop_os for everything else. I was very unimpressed trying to get a few different linux distros to run well on it, though i was trying some strange combinations. Pop_os just works. Literally no tweaking needed whatsoever.

Lenovo's 6th gen carbon x1 got rave reviews, but there was a lot of mixed messaging about newer models and arch, so I never really bothered when i was last looking.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by loxs on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:40PM (#24308488)
Currently I run the cheapest ThinkPad T495 (AMD hardware) on Arch Linux (but maxed the RAM on my own). Everything works great, except it doesn't remember the screen brightness level after a reboot, which is not a big deal at all for me - I don't reboot very often.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by jamesponddotco on Friday August 28, 2020 @04:25PM (#24309534)
I have a Psomething (the one with Xeon) from work and a T480 for personal stuff, but as I have been getting rid of Intel in my life, the T480 will be the first to go.

How is the T495 with kernel 5.8? How does the GPU handle day to day life, and video acceleration? And more importantly, does the T495 have soldered RAM?

The awesome thing about the T480 is how I could upgrade a bunch of things, from Wi-Fi card, to RAM, to NVMe drive, and I would not like losing that.

The new T14, unfortunately, will take forever to show up in Brazil, so the T495 seems to be the logical option.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by loxs on Saturday August 29, 2020 @09:35AM (#24315967)
As I said, everything works, except for remembering the screen brightness level.

It has 8GB soldered and you can put additional 16GB on the second slot. For me this is good enough.

Hardware video acceleration works out-of-the box with kernel 5.8.

I am not sure if the nvme slot is soldered, but as far as I remember, it's not. It has an additional slot for a standard 2.5 inch drive which you can use to increase capacity.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by ywei3410 on Saturday August 29, 2020 @01:00PM (#24317513)
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by loxs on Sunday August 30, 2020 @02:08AM (#24321698)
I know about this, but it's not that big of a deal to me, and I prefer to stick to the out-of-the-box experience on Arch and wait for a fix to arrive.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by inson on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:45PM (#24307000)
Dell XPS 15
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by boogies on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:52AM (#24305583)
> laptop can’t run the internals at full power when not connected to AC

How is this worse than a MBP that can’t “run the internals at full power” when it doesn’t take breaks to cool off (except maybe outside in winter?)? (Edit: my currently adjacent sibling comment claims that MBPs don’t run at full power off AC either, so their internal utilization seems strictly worse. Reminds me of how Apple arranged with Intel to buy a weaker (and presumably cooler and cheaper) variant of the Xeons available to anyone else for iMac Pros).

> I can SSH to wherever I want and get ‘the Linux experience’.

Depending on your definition of ‘the Linux experience’. For me X is half the GNU/Linux/*BSD experience: dwm, sxhkd, keynav, xcape, the Compose key, simple highlight + middle click/Shift+Insert copypasta. (Edit: xteddy, xeyes, xcowsay, buckle, etc. too).

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by boogies on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:40PM (#24307715)
Addendum: And of course you can get ‘the macOS experience’ with Adobe products, etc. on a Thinkpad (making a Hackintosh seems easier than ever with OpenCore &c).

Not that I as someone who has used Adobe products on macOS for a class and prefers free-as-in-freedom alternatives ever would.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by GekkePrutser on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:16PM (#24308230)
Easier than ever now yes. Once they finish the move to ARM... :'(
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by boogies on Friday August 28, 2020 @03:53PM (#24309221)
Yep, now’s just the time to try elementaryOS or any free/libre OS and get weaned off Apple before addiction to macOS becomes more of a restrictive/oppressive/heavy burden than ever.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by qppo on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:45PM (#24307007)
Some people will take snipes at the battery life/performance impact but just to give concrete examples.

I had a 2018 13" Macbook Pro and XPS 13 running Ubuntu. Former with Retina, latter with 4k. The Macbook's battery on a daily basis was never a huge problem for me unless running heavy applications like video chat. The XPS 13 has to be tethered to the power brick to run at 4k for more than a few hours. During normal dev work, I can't really get more than 90 minutes where the Macbook would last maybe 4-5 hours.

I suspect it's deeper than better hardware. Linux laptops just have worse battery life (nb4 "just install X Y Z with apt", that's not an acceptable solution when the OS is installed by the OEM and driver stability is still a problem on Linux laptops)

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by 0xmarcin on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:40AM (#24305411)
When it comes to Bluetooth headphones, I have a totally different experience with iPhone 11. I have Sony WH1000XM3 headphones. I really like them, yet every time I connect them to my iPhone the sound volume jumps to almost 100%. I reported the issue to Apple but got no answer (the headphones are working without any problems with my old android phone - Samsung Galaxy s7). The only solution so far was to enable EU sound volume limits to decrease the initial bang.

The other problem that I had with my iPhone is that for the first few days it was getting really hot. I called the Apple support and they told me that it is "normal" - just wait for about a week. OK they where right, after a week problem was gone, but for something that costs a lot of money I would expect better.

Macbooks (I got one at work and I own a small 13'' MBP) are OKish. My only complain is that they can heat up to really high temperatures (maybe I will appreciate it in the winter).

When it comes to Linux, it a good OS but it still has troubles with hardware accessories. About I year ago, (I have a 4 year old PC with Ubuntu) I tried to connect Bluetooth headphones with it and it was a total disaster. I tried about 2 different Bluetooth dongles and installed at least 2 different BT stacks, without effect. After about 15 mins the BT disconnected. I searches the Internet but I couldn't make it work. It may be connected to the fact that I was running quite old Ubuntu 16 LTS back then.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by krondor on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:46AM (#24305499)
Actually those Sony headphones are one of the reasons I am interested in Linux instead of OSX. LDAC support is not present on OSX, but it is for Linux.

It makes a huge difference in audio quality over bluetooth in my experience.

*edit: Just realized I posted the wrong link. https://eischmann.wordpress.com/2019/02/11/better-bluetooth-...

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by MaxBarraclough on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:00AM (#24305694)
The XM3s support the AAC codec too, [0] as that's the codec iPhones use (iPhones don't support aptX or LDAC). Does macOS not support AAC?

[0] https://helpguide.sony.net/mdr/wh1000xm3/v1/en/contents/TP00...

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by krondor on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:04PM (#24306525)
I have never been able to get it to negotiate AAC on OSX, though technically it does support it. iPhone works fine.

Even still LDAC seems superior from my comparison to my Android and iPhone audio.

See this thread for some discussion on it. https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOS/comments/bion53/force_macos_t...

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by nikon on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:54PM (#24307119)
I've successfully configured my Mac to use AptX with my Sony headphones.

Follow this guide: https://9to5mac.com/2018/08/31/mac-how-to-force-aptx-aac-on-...

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by krondor on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:34PM (#24308422)
Excellent, not sure what I missed before, but I have aptx and aac now! A good step in the right direction. Still would love LDAC and/or Aptx HD of course in the long run.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by nikon on Friday August 28, 2020 @04:21PM (#24309498)
Agreed! Funnily enough, this doesn't work on my 2015 MBP, just my newer Touchbar one.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by krondor on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:39PM (#24307703)
Thanks, it looks similar to what I've tried so far. I'll give it another run through and see if I missed something.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by MaxBarraclough on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:08PM (#24306576)
I think LDAC should be expected to sound better than AAC or aptX, looking at that Sony.net page. Did you mean SBC?
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by krondor on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:17PM (#24306683)
No, I meant AAC. The XM3s do not seem to negotiate AAC over BT on OSX. They fall back to SBC and obviously sound bad. AAC would be a step up, but AptX HD or LDAC would be ideal. They work fine in my case on both iPhone and Android.

So as I was saying I'm tempted to move back to Linux for my work laptop for LDAC over BT support as well as other reasons of course.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by hollandheese on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:49PM (#24307827)
They shouldn't be connecting with SBC. Mine connect with AptX by default on macOS.

You can also force them to connect with AptX by following this guide: https://9to5mac.com/2018/08/31/mac-how-to-force-aptx-aac-on-...

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by hashedout on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:44AM (#24305476)
That is because the integration is not there in the linux ecosystem. Apple has this very tight integration because it controls both the hardware and the software.

But there are some companies which have started doing the same thing:

- System76

- Tuxedo

These companies test their devices well on a distro and well, it reflects in their pricing too!

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by boogies on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:09AM (#24305768)
Dell also sells an XPS “Developer Edition” with Ubuntu pre-installed and officially supported, and Lenovo recently announced a range of workstations and Thinkpads being certified to support Ubuntu and Fedora. There’s also Purism that created a custom PureOS to closely fit their custom hardware, eg. a TPM designed for user security instead of vendor lock-in.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by als0 on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:00PM (#24306464)
> fit their custom hardware, eg. a TPM designed for user security instead of vendor lock-in.

Just here to point out that they use a standard commercial off-the-shelf TPM manufactured by Infineon. It's not custom hardware. As with all TPMs, it is the firmware/OS that decides whether to use it for lock-in purposes or freedom.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by boogies on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:10PM (#24306596)
I think the firmware is custom (and of course it’s the nexus of hardware and software, so exactly the part that OEMs can best provide the user unique value through. System76 and Pine64 (and I think Purism) provide open source firmware you can reflash yourself for custom keyboard layouts, firmware killswitches, etc., though System76’s hardware itself seems very off-the-self (Clevo white-label). (Edit: And I think Purism Librems overall design with hardware killswitches, etc. are custom ofc.)
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by jessaustin on Friday August 28, 2020 @03:25PM (#24308964)
Lenovo talk a good game, but I have thus far been unable to find a linux laptop available for purchase on the lenovo site.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by boogies on Friday August 28, 2020 @03:50PM (#24309190)
I don’t think they ship anything with it preinstalled right now (unlike each of the other companies I and the parent mentioned). But they’ve had a reputation of generally good Linux support for a while now, and it’s seems they’ve just now decided to make it official, and there’s plenty of hope for preinstalled GNU/Linux in the future.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by wyclif on Friday August 28, 2020 @07:42PM (#24311712)
I'm hearing they will ship the P53 and a few other models with Fedora Workstation 32 by the end of the year: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2020/08/10/lenov...
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by GekkePrutser on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:18PM (#24308254)
No quite the same thing. None of the Linux vendors make their own laptops, they just use barebones from Clevo etc.

So they can never achieve the same integration as Apple.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by boogies on Friday August 28, 2020 @04:13PM (#24309430)
> None of the Linux vendors make their own laptops

Dell, Lenovo, Purism, Pine64 et al. do.

The two in your parent may (at least System76’s laptops are said to) use Clevo hardware, but they can still ship with custom open source firmware.

It’s also not as if Apple sells their own custom CPU at the moment. Even then, they’ll probably buy other parts from third parties (eg. they buy iPhone OLEDs from Samsung, though they’re said to calibrate them differently).

And finally, integration can be seen as a bad thing. It’s conducive to lock in (see above comment on ARM Macs ending Hackintoshes).

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by GekkePrutser on Saturday August 29, 2020 @09:55AM (#24316117)
Dell's Linux laptops are not custom made for linux (they even still have a Windows key!). They just swap out the wifi card.

I'm pretty sure Purism's are just standard barebones too, but with some extra modifications like hardware switches. They showed how they solder the wires to the motherboard - if they'd designed it themselves they wouldn't have to do that.

Pine64, indeed, that's true. The enclosure is standard (the PB Pro is the same as my Chinese "ChuWi" laptop :') ) but indeed they made a custom motherboard. I really like that company.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by MaxBarraclough on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:58AM (#24305665)
I have the same headphones. I've had that issue too, but only a few times. It might be relevant that I use them almost exclusively with my iPhone, rarely with other devices.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by jalude on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:43AM (#24305452)
Strange about the WH1000XM3s I haven't had that problem with the same headphones and an iPhone X. I have however gotten the same heat issues from time to time.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by jillesvangurp on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:09AM (#24305767)
Well, macs don't run at full power either if you don't plug them in. And thermal issues are definitely a thing on macs. I have a friend who is complaining about stability issues on his 16" mbp already. And there is of course the whole notion with the uncertainty around ARM and their commitment to supporting what they are selling right now. So, I'm not super keen on buying that just yet though I probably will eventually.

I've had lots of silly issues with bluetooth, wifi and other things not quite "just working" lately on my 2017 MBP. Don't get me started on the keyboard situation. Apple's standards have been slipping on that front. But they are undeniably still very good laptops overall. If it wasn't for the weird keyboards, they'd make pretty decent linux laptops too. As it is, the touchbar is a PITA for that, even if you do manage to get that working (apparently it is doable).

I actually wouldn't mind a linux laptop except that seems to involve a lot of compromises on form factor, sucky touchpads, plasticky/fugly designs, screen resolution, driver compatibility, and manufacturers with not so great reputations on the quality and support front. Apple is also problematic for support lately of course.

I recently bought a new camera and the ability to take the usb-c power cable and plug that into the camera to quickly transfer some photos is quite nice. I don't really miss the memory card slot that much. I also charge my phone of my laptop via usb-c when on the road. I once watched 8 hours of offline netflix on my phone on a transatlantic flight and left the plane with a full charge on my phone and 80% charge on my mac.

I've been considering a linux laptop for ages but there are not a lot of models that meet my requirements of having a form factor that isn't hideously ugly (no "gaming" laptops please), has decent specs for CPU, memory, ssd (this eliminates 98% of the market), an hdpi screen (now we are talking 2, maybe 3 models), and a touchpad that comes reasonably close to what I'm used to. There are not a lot of things in the market that come close enough that I would consider them and none that I'm aware off that don't involve compromising on at least a few things I care about.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by alexktz on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:26PM (#24306788)
They don't? I just ran Cinebench R20 and Unigine Heaven benchmark plugged and unplugged (10x each) and got the same scores each time.

This is the 16" MBP with the 5600m with HBM2 memory.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by numpad0 on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:39PM (#24307699)
The issue is not repeatability but the fact that cooling is inadequate for the TDP, and CPU (reportedly?) runs in thermal throttled modes.

Armchairers' consensus is Apple botched design and CPU is overheating. Idk. Maybe it's intended design as a form of cTDP.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by falcolas on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:37PM (#24306901)
You'll get the same performance, but you'll see a decline in the battery charge when really putting the hardware to the test. I've seen it happen just using a Google Hangout.

Modern macbooks can ship with a 40 or 60 amp power supply, whereas they should have 90 or 120 amp power supplies. They assume, mostly correctly, that the really intensive workloads will complete before the internal battery is in trouble.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by jdminhbg on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:45PM (#24306989)
> You'll get the same performance, but you'll see a decline in the battery charge

Right, but the initial problem was that full performance wasn't even possible from the battery, regardless of how much charge you were willing to sacrifice.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by Upvoter33 on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:30AM (#24305287)
This matches my experience. I have been using macs for 20+ years, and have on occasion tried to switch to Linux. Linux is definitely way faster (sometimes, amazingly so), but that is it; almost all other parts of the experience are quite a downgrade, so I haven't really come close to switching.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by krooj on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:09AM (#24305008)
"It just works with external displays" - ಠ_ಠ
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by _coveredInBees on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:22AM (#24305932)
Lol yeah. That is literally the worst thing about MacBooks. It's hard enough getting it to work properly in a dual monitor setup, but I can reproducibly generate forced power cycles by plugging into a dock when the lid is closed due to a kernel panic bug that still hasn't been solved despite numerous reports from users suffering the same fate on Catalina.

I also just had to reboot my MBP 16 because every so often when the VPN connection drops, there is no way to resuscitate the WiFi network connection without a full reboot :-/

As someone who moved from an XPS to MBP to have a smoother experience with less hardware glitches, I have been sorely disappointed. Once WSL gets full support for running GUI apps and CUDA support, I will almost certainly be moving away from the MBP. The direction of OSX is concerning, and I find it insane that their sandboxing results in a 5 second wait to open a simple Word or CSV file. I booted up my 5 year old XPS a few weeks back and it felt so much snappier than my fully loaded MBP 16!

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by jldugger on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:46PM (#24307016)
>I can reproducibly generate forced power cycles by plugging into a dock when the lid is closed due to a kernel panic bug

Crazy as it is, I've found this to be less common after upgrading the firmware on my monitors.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by deathanatos on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:41AM (#24306164)
My previous MBP and 4k monitor would, on every other connection, not recognize the USB devices. So every other time I plugged into the monitor, I had to un-plug & re-plug to get the peripherals.

I also have a Linux Thinkpad. It's not perfect either, but it is definitely better.

The Linux Thinkpad also more reliably associates with my Bose headphones. It was hard to pair them the first time around, but after that, they've auto-connected. The MBP will occasionally get into states where it won't find the headphones or the headphones don't find it, and I have to request they manually connect. The MBP does this with my old phone, too…

I do have to agree with the article on the points about the touchpad (MBP's is superior) and on the emoji support. (It's getting there in Linux… but slowly.)

I'd recommend Terminator over gnome-terminal, though.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by se32point1 on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:04PM (#24308078)
Alacritty + tmux is pretty good too, but not very user friendly. Although.. it's a lot faster.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by pmx on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:39AM (#24305396)
Yes, totally the opposite to my own experience with mac. Getting external displays to work properly has often required nasty EDID hacks and disabling SIP on the machine.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by apetrovic on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:18PM (#24306695)
I'm on my third MacBook Pro (the current one is MBP 16"), always used various external monitors (24" FullHD back in the day, recently mostly 27" 4k), with either mini DP, USB-C to mini DP, or USB-C with recent LG monitors, and in eight years since I'm on Mac I never had any issue.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by xenospn on Friday August 28, 2020 @04:03PM (#24309315)
Same. It always just works, no matter where you are or what you’re connecting to.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by esalman on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:28AM (#24305995)
The OP review is very patronizing of MBP but I could not take it after this. Colleagues at our lab meetings have been harassed by external display issue week after week at lab meetings. Some of them reported external display failing immediately after Catalina upgrade.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by tikhonj on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:45AM (#24305483)
I have a recent macbook for work. The only way I managed to get my 4k external monitor to run at >24 Hz—such a slow refresh rate it was painful to use—was with a $15 3rd-party utility[1]. And that was after failing to fix the problem with hours of debugging and switching from HDMI to DisplayPort.

The same monitor worked perfectly without any configuration on both Windows and Linux.

[1]: https://www.madrau.com/

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by bryanrasmussen on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:30AM (#24305288)
one of the most infuriating phrases in tech is the mac "just works" one
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by mtrovo on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:56AM (#24305637)
"It just works with external displays" using a $80 official Apple USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter or to a $180 AppleTV through AirPort, you choose
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by cytzol on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:26AM (#24305981)
I feel like that phrase was extremely accurate... before the buggy OSes, awful keyboards, and hordes of security prompts. If you're starting to use Apple devices in 2020 I can see why you'd think that phrase is infuriating, but believe me when I say things used to be so much better!
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by bryanrasmussen on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:23PM (#24307486)
I started in 2013. I have not noticed a significantly greater number of things just working on it then I have on Windows or Ubuntu over that time period. Maybe it just works for non-programmers.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by alexktz on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:14PM (#24306644)
One USB-C cable into an LG USB-C monitor. I'm not saying there aren't issues with MacOS and external displays but my experience on a daily basis is consistently good.

The same cannot be said for my experience docking and undocking the T480s with the same monitor and cable.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by diehunde on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:50AM (#24306312)
I got the ivanky dock[1] for dual display and works like a charm. I have a MacBook Air and a MacBook Pro and I haven't had any issues with any of them so far. It's really just plug-and-play. I have a couple of other docks and connectors and I had issues with all of them.

[1]https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B089GKTC5B/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by toastal on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:10AM (#24305021)
I'm not saying it's not possible, but if you're an open source advocate, why do you bother with Adobe and their subscriptions? As someone who dabbles in a lot of raster graphics on the side, after the learning curve of switth, I'm just as productive using GIMP, darktable, Hugin, Krita, and Inkscape.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by tupputuppu on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:41PM (#24311119)
Probably because they feel their time is too valuable for that learning curve, or because even by spending lots and lots of time on learning, you still can't match the productivity of somewhat usable software (please note that I hate Adobe as much as the next guy but they're lightyears ahead of Darktable or Gimp)
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by bamboozled on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:52AM (#24306338)
Sounds like you’ve not had Linux on a laptop for a while, it’s no where near as bad as you describe.

I run NIxOs on a Thinkpad X1 Extreme Gen 2.

I really love it and it “sparks joy” for me too. Especially because I understand how it’s lit together and sort of “built it” and contribute to the Platform. Very satisfying.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by alexktz on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:23PM (#24306762)
I have literally used Linux as my daily desktop driver at work for 6 years and counting.

I'm not saying it can't be a great experience if you have a well defined use case such as development. But for an all-round, no compromises experience when stepping outside of development (and this does annoy me btw) I find MacOS to give the least worst set of compromises.

I even watch DistroTube and read r/unixporn. I love Linux!

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by jasonv on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:54PM (#24307118)
I have a 2013 MacBook Air that I still love. Works fine for 90% of everything I want. Only recently started to feel sluggish for Camtasia & Premier Pro video editing.

I love Linux, have used it from the very beginning, want to use it on the desktop more, may buy a small NUC to host it and some containers for development -- but I'm not sure I want to spend any time thinking about hardware compatibility and living with it 100% on the desktop.

That said, all the recent reports of Mac hardware concern me. I'm really hoping their next product line is a return to the early 2000s form. We bought a lot of those at the company I was at, and it was a no-brainer.

I could flip it -- convert to a Linux laptop and keep a Mac mini on the desk for media projects.

A Lenovo Legion I bought recently for my kid is nice... but I don't see the hardware lasting as long as the MacBook Air has. I'll see if it even lasts 3-4 years. If it's like the Dells I've owned, it'll "work" but won't feel solid.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by cleaver on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:58PM (#24307162)
I've certainly been keeping my eyes open for a MacBook Pro alternative. On my last time looking, I thought I'd try to find something with:

- retina-like resolution 15" screen - 32GB RAM - slim and light without a flimsy plastic case - good battery life - good trackpad - keyboard home row centred

I could not find anything. I couldn't even find something with the first three items.

I'm starting to think it might make sense to go with a cheaper MacBook and a little pocket server like this: https://liliputing.com/2020/08/first-look-gmk-nucbox-2-4-inc...

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by sneak on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:24PM (#24307504)
For some reason (bad software support? tradition?) the PC laptop market seems to simply not care that much about extremely high resolution displays. There are some, but none in systems with the overall build quality of a MBP.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by fomine3 on Monday August 31, 2020 @04:05AM (#24329374)
There are many laptops that has 4K display that's more resolution compared to MacBook Pro, if you choose correct product line.

Cheap laptops don't care HiDPI displays because it's cheap. Gaming laptops less care HiDPI displays because it's too much resolution on current GPU.

Most premium models provide both FHD and 4K model, FHD is for battery life and price.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by cleaver on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:44PM (#24307761)
That's what I found. Another pet peeve was extremely wide screens, although we don't see that as much these days. Not great for editing text or code.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by petepete on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:03PM (#24307241)
Where does the XPS15 fall short?
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by cleaver on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:42PM (#24307740)
I could get the retina screen with 16GB RAM, or 32GB RAM with a lower res screen. It was a few months back, so hopefully that has changed. I'm no longer looking though.

Other than that, the XPS15 was a front runner.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by biztos on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:34PM (#24307638)
I'm glad it worked out for you. I so much wanted to love the 16" MBP but in clamshell mode I can hear the fan at least 80% of the time, and if I do anything at all involving the Xcode simulator the fan kicks up high enough I can't hear myself think. When open the fan's not so bad but it would fry my legs like an egg even through jeans.

I look forward to going back to my old 13" which has an SD slot and MagSafe and all the rest, even though it'll feel crazy slow. The 16" is, for sure, a beast when it comes to performance, but I have found the downsides to be significant.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by throwaway4715 on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:54PM (#24308635)
In my experience the 16" MBP is just bad. This is my first Apple laptop and it's pretty, but that's about it. Despite having a serious horsepower (on paper) the fan runs constantly while doing basic tasks, I get tons of beachballs, and my wireless mouse has to plugged into a specific port or it's janky as hell. It's not intuitive (for me) or performant. It's not even a good linux stand in.

My takeaway from this whole experience is that computer people will give up practicality for fashion just as much as anyone else.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by reaperducer on Friday August 28, 2020 @03:28PM (#24308986)
wireless mouse

plugged into a specific port

So, is it wireless or not? Or is it one of those Bluetooth dongle things from the 1990's?

If the mouse is Bluetooth, why not just have it connect directly to the computer? Every Mac since 2003 has had built-in Bluetooth.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by cma on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:06PM (#24307289)
My experience:

External displays of variable DPI unusable without a paid app like switchresx.

Suspend always drains the battery if using any kind of usb or microscope drive. Endless hacks to finally get it to fully hibernate when closing the lid. Updates break it over time and a new way has to be figured out.

x86 support suddenly thrown away in new updates, decimating game libraries.

Out of date OpenGL and heavy push into proprietary Metal.

App notarization that was promised to just be used for security now being used for iOS related business punishments, bleeding into the desktop.

Windows with WSL gets all the advantages of the terminal in OS X and finally was enough for me to move. With the WSL 2 GPU integration gets rid of the remaining issues, especially as it moves into GPU display application support and not just GPU compute.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by striking on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:56PM (#24308671)
> External displays of variable DPI unusable without a paid app like switchresx.

Hold Option and click the Scaled radio button again. You'll see a list of options.

Yes, I realize that's silly.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by cma on Friday August 28, 2020 @07:56PM (#24311818)
Even those weren't enough for what I needed. I think it was getting around 1440p sizes at high dpi by downscaling (2880p -> 4K).
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by striking on Saturday August 29, 2020 @05:07PM (#24319444)
I'm fairly certain it does the equivalent of SwitchResX and its OSS counterpart.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by comex on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:32PM (#24307608)
> App notarization that was promised to just be used for security now being used for iOS related business punishments, bleeding into the desktop.

Source?

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by noisem4ker on Friday August 28, 2020 @03:12PM (#24308822)
Apple’s Epic retaliation: Unreal Engine on iOS and Mac in jeopardy

https://venturebeat.com/2020/08/17/apples-epic-retaliation-u...

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by reaperducer on Friday August 28, 2020 @03:24PM (#24308950)
unix like

macOS is certified Unix. Has been for over a decade.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by IncRnd on Friday August 28, 2020 @05:58PM (#24310551)
That's not correct. Unix, the operating sytem family, is different from systems that are certified as UNIX (uppercase) 03-compliant. Macos is a UNIX 03-compliant operating system certified by The Open Group.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by funkaster on Friday August 28, 2020 @11:36AM (#24306097)
how can you be an open source advocate and still work with adobe & friends? - no question on the quality/productivity of those, just on your argument.

A more consistent argument would’ve been: “open source advocate, Gimp, Inkscape and others run even better on my mac than on linux” (would disagree on that, but at least it would be a more consistent argument)

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by alexktz on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:19PM (#24306713)
Because the tool you use is just part of the equation. It's same reason I use Discord, Telegram, whatever. You trade convenience for money, time or privacy. Sadly, I genuinely don't think that any of the tools you mention come close to Photoshop or Lightroom (Darktable is getting there but still misses a few key things for me).

To be an open source advocate I have to only use open source software? How would I drive my car? Or use my phone? Or my TV? It's just not practical.

I advocate for mostly open source server side software. I wrote a Masters dissertation on Linux and normal peoples interactions with the Linux desktop. I record a podcast twice a month (selfhosted.show) and edit it under Linux sometimes and sometimes on Mac.

My argument, such as it is, is that the tool I use to build and maintain my open source infrastructure doesn't need to be open to allow me to further the open source agenda. Linux changed my life and I do everything I can to give back to the community.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by lloeki on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:17PM (#24306682)
One can be an open source advocate and still not be a closed source detractor, recognising the usefulness and/or quality of some proprietary software.

Things are not manichaean zero sum game.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by criddell on Friday August 28, 2020 @03:28PM (#24308990)
Advocates can still be rational, zealots rarely are.
Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by tristor on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:06PM (#24306559)
You can be an open source advocate while not exclusively using open source software. I've been an open source advocate for most of my life, during the early days I predominantly used Windows, but I was aware of Linux and skilled with it and worked to ensure it was used where appropriate and possible on servers in my workplaces. It's a given that Linux dominates servers in 2020, but that wasn't always the case.

The way now is really not even on the desktop, Linux lost there and now the world has moved on. The war is on mobile, and Android isn't truly open in the way that Linux upstream is due to binary blobs and baseband. Hopefully someday we'll see a truly open mobile platform rise to supremacy, but right now we have two separate walled gardens on mobile and not much else.

Within those walled gardens, advocacy can be to use apps which are open source vs proprietary options (e.g. to use andOTP instead of Authy, or Bitwarden instead of LastPass, as a simple example).

Existing inside the walled garden we're all forced to exist in is not hypocrisy, it's pragmatism. Using the best tool for the job and acknowledging the deficiency of open options is just being realistic, not an example of a fall from purity. Not everyone is Richard Stallman.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by filmgirlcw on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:41PM (#24306936)
Because you need to actually get your work done and need to interoperate with files from others?

Being dogmatic and pure about the license of every piece of software you use might win internet points but it’s not going to actually get the job done.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by itsoktocry on Friday August 28, 2020 @12:55PM (#24307128)
>Being dogmatic and pure about the license of every piece of software you use might win internet points but it’s not going to actually get the job done.

Sure. But I wouldn't go around calling myself an "open source advocate" while supporting some of the worst.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by filmgirlcw on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:38PM (#24307693)
Why does it have to be a zero sum game? Frankly, that’s the sort of gate-keeping that keeps people away from trying or adopting OSS.

Someone can support and advocate for a software development model and for the freedoms and opportunities that can allow for without having to go all-in and ensure that every piece of software they buy, use, or support follows that same model.

A really great way discourage people from advocating for OSS is to harangue them for daring to use Photoshop in lieu of Gimp.

Obviously it’s really convenient and rewarding when best-in class products are also OSS, but that’s not the world we live in.

It strikes me as a really shitty message to say that the only way you can advocate or support something is to go all-in on the model. If the goal is to get more people using and adopting and developing with open tools, yelling at them for not being the pinnacle of “purity” sure seems like a strange way to do it.

If someone calls themselves a “free software advocate,” I’ll agree that that implies a much stronger dogma to a specific set of licenses — but that’s an ideological movement that is materially different from OSS.

Re:One Year with ThinkPad and Linux (From MacBook Pro) by alexktz on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:39PM (#24308485)
Absolutely Amen. Thank you.

A list of my open source contributions include co-founding Linuxserver.io, the Self-Hosted podcast, blogging extensively about open source software (blog.ktz.me) and work for Red Hat. I say this not to be 'look at me' but to show that I try to put my money where my mouth is. I wonder what the other commenters have contributed.