I think you mean outside of the Bay Area. For PCs/Desktop Apple has like 12% market share in the US. 7% globally.
I once had a discussion with a coworker at a major company known for its app, where I was complaining about an Android bug and he genuinely asked "does anybody even use Android?" And I responded, "only the majority of users in every country around the world including the US. It's even 50/50 on our app!" Afterward, I found the internal numbers for employee use of the app was 96/4 in favor of iOS, and this included employees outside of tech and outside the US!
He, like so many others, was totally oblivious living in the Bay Area tech bubble.
Make stupid design choices, win less customers.
You’re completely right that this doesn’t hold true for other countries, and that ignoring Android is not the play, though.
other aspects include to assume everyone have free wifi everywhere or unlimited latest-G data on their phone, last model Macs and phones, disposable income for 57 $9.99 monthly subscriptions, and live on food delivery.
Soon to include: everyone have a room fully set up for VR, with the latest headset du jour.
I use Windows as my daily driver OS now for both native/web/mobile/devops work and I expect to see more and more developers making that same switch in the coming years.
And yeah, they suck a lot[1], but there's a way to fix if you use Homebrew: https://stackoverflow.com/a/57973942/8280773
[1] Performance-wise and also when you take into account that most shell scripts/tutorials on the internet are written with a GNU userland in mind.
zsh has replaced bash as the default shell, btw.
Also, Mac is a certified UNIX environment, it is native.
The same is true for Zoom: things like accelerated video streaming are universally supported on laptop GPUs, but software support is spotty for some apps/OSes. Things like screen sharing are 100% software-side.
While I'd love to use a Linux workstation (and often do), it's simply not there yet in those areas. That has nothing to do with "high-end hardware" and everything to do with less robust software support than many alternatives--including MacOS.
I guess you could make the case that because MacOS has to support fewer kinds of hardware, they can spend more time on making software support robust, but I'm neither convinced of that argument nor convinced that's what you meant by your post.
Likewise, if you use an underpowered laptop, or one for which Ubuntu doesn't have proper drivers, you're going to have a hard time using Zoom.
I'm not saying that you'll never have issues (which I'm sure holds for MacOS as well), or even that you might not have slightly more issues than on MacOS (see your last paragraph), but things are definitely not as bad as comments online would have you believe, because many of those can be ascribed to issues like I mentioned above.
As a linux user, I'd like to say that I've seen that happen just as often with OSX users on my team. I think that's just Zoom's shitty app. But I do agree about peripheral hardware issues plaguing Linux. Bluetooth headphones are still such a hassle on Ubuntu 20.04.
This goes especially for audio.
I’m going to guess that Apple peripherals + Apple OS on Apple hardware is actually hassle-free but then what’s the point of a standard.
Well if peripherals vendor and "common communication/presentation software" didn't test on Linux, whose drawback is it now? That being said, I have used the following without any trouble on Linux: Slack, Discord, Teamviewer, Zoom, BBB and BlueJeans. Vendors don't put enough investment into testing for Linux due to comparatively low usage numbers - but that doesn't mean that it is a "drawback" of the OS.
As for hardware, as Vinnl explains above the way to go is buy certified hardware. Ubuntu and Red Hat folks certify a bunch of Dell and Lenovo laptops to work with Linux. I use Ubuntu on a Dell XPS 13 and I don't need to do ANY extra setup. Things just work (TM) - including my Sennheiser and Jabra headphones.
I still miss macOS, so much, because
- Mac Software I was accustomed to using (and it was lot) is no longer available to me (don't discount this problem when suggesting switching)
- I had to customize Windows 10 a lot, (many hours of work) to emulate native features of macOS I personally can't live without (including remapping keys, which turns out not to be trivial on Windows)
- I miss the general UI polish of macOS. Windows is...ugly in a lot of places.
- I miss Finder, and I've tried so many file explorer alternatives and nothing comes close
- Windows 10 can't seem to ever remember my screen layout for my applications. I had to resort to an application to do this for me. Drives me nuts
- macOS has way better HiDPI support (I have 3 4K monitors)
It ain't trivial, is what I'm saying.
Don't get me started on Linux, I loved Pop OS conceptually, but the support for basic things, like natural scrolling, was completely lacking, and I had to resort to all kinds of hacks to get a desktop semi functional. Not to mention, a lot of Linux 'add on' packages are abandonware and would break constantly when updating to new versions, and for basic things, like dealing with scroll direction, I had to edit files in a terminal, which I just found annoying. It just wasn't a polished out of the box experience. Don't get me started with it not recognizing adapters properly and issues with GPUs. macOS is alot of things, but they take 'just works' more seriously than any other operating system I've ever used.
Honestly, I find it incredibly odd that companies that have more manpower than Apple (you'd be shocked how little manpower they devote to some things) can't manage to pull off the polish of macOS UI
Why do you miss Finder? Search feature? Preview.app? Opposite to you, I never like it.
As for software, I miss Finder because I felt the interface was intuitive and I really liked the features Finder like tags, smart folders, and the way you could custom it with extensions and settings. I like the built in software, like Preview in particular.
I have yet to have anyone show me an OS that comes close to matching macOS out of the box. Even conceding customizations, they're just so lacking in comparison, to someone who 'clicked' with macOS.
Granted, not everyone likes macOS, and thats fine, but to come at it from a place that its so easy to migrate to another platform, ignores so many things about macOS that make it great to a macOS user.
My job requires Windows 10, thats how I ended up on the platform. I learned to get around and replicate as much of the features as I could, but so many are just fundamentally missing and even if I wanted to pay for the functionality (and for so much of it I would), the software doesn't even exist.
After getting a Windows gaming PC, I've been spending more and more of my time, developing and otherwise, on PC. I prefer it because it's where I have my large (low DPI :( ) monitor, but Windows is still full of so many papercuts in general usage (I miss being able to drag a file into a Open File dialog so much) that I still greatly prefer using macOS.
Windows has some niceties to try and make the transition better - The Windows Terminal app is pheonomial, and Powershell tries to map rm to whatever the Powershell command is - rm -rf doesnt work as expected though. I honestly don't find myself using WSL all that much - I only use it when I can't figure out how to make ping go forever in Powershell.
Anyone who has used any Linux knows HiDPI or mixed DPI monitors are a massive issue on Linux. Even when you get your xrandr configured perfectly fine, disconnecting is a hassle. And that's completely ignoring apps, QT, GTK, etc all handle DPI differently. So you need a different config with DPI setting on each.
One of the best I've used is PopOS with the HiDPI daemon enabled. But even that has issues.
Even Windows can't deal properly with having a 4k laptop screen and a 2k monitor attached. Have to deal with weird text scaling issues and other weird scaling issues.
But MacOS can and does it beautifully.
Please show me a solved automated test for the issue in the post.
Even my craptastic company gives me a bunch of devices to test on. And I very deliberately specify very low-end versions of the machines so that I can test against worst-case-scenarios. It's a bonus that sub-optimal hardware is cheap as chips.
My favorite testing device is a $20 burner phone I picked up in the supermarket checkout aisle. If the web site works on that piece of poo, it'll work on anything.
Right now I'm waiting for UPS to deliver an old iPad from Alaska that the IT department bought for me off of fleaBay, just so that I can test on sub-optimal actual hardware.
Testing platforms like SauceLabs, Browserstack etc run on real hardware, even for mobile.
Testing with your own devices is of course better, but a lot more work. Which one you choose doesn't really matter, the point is just that you don't _need_ to have all those resources to do basic compatibility testing, so no excuses.
Ths context is that testing is a solved problem. You are taking specific factual examples I wrote and attempting to debunk them with a general statement that is in agreement with what I wrote. Testing scrollbards can absolutely be tested inside a VM. Pretending that native hardware is needed to cover 99% of the use-cases for scrollbars is kind of silly.
> Even my craptastic company gives me a bunch of devices to test on. And I very deliberately specify very low-end versions of the machines so that I can test against worst-case-scenarios. It's a bonus that sub-optimal hardware is cheap as chips.
You've made my point. This is a solved problem.
The only problem that is solved is running multiple browsers in VMs in a cloud. Everything else is anyone's guess.
To come up with an automated test for the problem in the OP you have to be a) aware of the problem and b) have a way to test that scrollbars do/don't appear. Good luck with that.
That false hyperbole. Just because you do not know something, that doesn't mean that nobody else does.
> To come up with an automated test for the problem in the OP you have to be a) aware of the problem and b) have a way to test that scrollbars do/don't appear. Good luck with that.
No luck is needed, just tests. You may not realize, but test frameworks already exist for testing the screen for the presence of UI elements. That is how dialog boxes are clicked in tests. This is literally solved.
For the third time you've failed to show how to test for the problem described in OP. It tells me that you don't know
> test frameworks already exist for testing the screen for the presence of UI elements
Which ones test for the presence/absence of scrollbars?
I see our testers doing this all the time - but I don't know what libraries they use. I know the testers at our shop do it with an house built framework as well as with commercial ones. On our company's security team, various people have scripted UI exploits using selenium or appium. I just asked one of the people familiar with those two tools I mentioned, and she said it would take her a few minutes.
These are commodity tools. There is nothing special with any of them.
It would'be been so easy to just answer the question I asked. Instead, it's now a thread of non-answers and thinly veiled ad-hominem attacks.
The rest of your long answer is once again working hard on avoiding the answer.
> I find it hard to believe that you think there aren't any.
I didn't say there weren't any. I asked, "which ones let you test the problem in OP".
> I see our testers doing this all the time - but I don't know what libraries they use
Ah, my assumption that you don't know what you're talking about is proven correct.
> On our company's security team, various people have scripted UI exploits using selenium or appium
Question: scrollbars.
"Answers": tools click on buttons, scripting security exploits, I don't know what libraries testers are using.
Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?
> and she said it would take her a few minutes.
Given your answers in this thread, I seriously doubt your ability to ask a proper question to "the people familiar with the tools". Especially given the fact that you don't know what libraries testers use and that you, apparently, don't do any testing yourself.
See, frontend testing is very far from being "a solved problem". Especially for quirks as described in OP. But you wouldn't know because you, well, don't know.
> These are commodity tools. There is nothing special with any of them.
Indeed they are. Indeed there is nothing special. And this still doesn't answer the question.
You used a lot of words to make it seem otherwise. As you yourself wrote, "Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?"
You din't, really. On the third attempt you said "I see our testers doing this all the time - but I don't know what libraries they use" and "various people have scripted UI exploits using selenium or appium. I just asked one of the people familiar with those two tools"
This shows that you started this entire argument with very bad faith. You berated me for not knowing something while you yourself:
- don't do frontend testing using frontend testing tools
- you don't know what tools your testers use
- you assume some capability of some tools only because "you talked to people familiar with them" which further shows that you yourself are not familiar with them.
On the other hand, unlike you, I know what I'm talking about. Granted, I haven't used these tools extensively, but I did use them, and I'm well aware of their limitations.
All you have is, well, empty words.
> You din't, really. On the third attempt you said "I see our testers doing this all the time - but I don't know what libraries they use" and "various people have scripted UI exploits using selenium or appium. I just asked one of the people familiar with those two tools"
Because I see this sort of test being done almost daily... I work in security and not specifically in testing. I mentioned what frameworks are used in a security context. You are beating a dead horse, focusing on what doesn't matter. I suggest you get off hacker news, go educate yourself, and stop pontificating.
When I said that I "just asked" I meant that I just now asked, not that just asking was all I have ever done. You're being foolish, projecting in every comment that you know more than everyone else.
PS. Please quote properly. I wrote that the security team uses selenium and appium not whatever it is that you are pretending I wrote.
Good luck with your holier than though attitude, and god help your security.
I did not need to ask other people how to solve a problem. That is a silly interpretation of what I wrote. You are willfully pretending ignorance of how to read and have a conversation.
Pontificate: "express one's opinions in a way considered annoyingly pompous and dogmatic." Yes, you really do need to stop pontificating.
I hope you find happiness.
You can keep using all the words and comments that you want, but the simple truth is that this is a solved problem, I gave you two solutions, and yet you keep using ad hominem attacks.
As you yourself wrote, "Ignorance is bliss". Those are your words, not mine.
A good set of examples is here
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/feb/23/truth-w...
Now that macOS is every bit as complicated as windows, it’s often Microsoft’s OS that can’t do something. WSL helps some of that, but there are usability shortcuts that Windows doesn’t have. Windows is also insultingly condescending with its verbiage (“Getting Windows Ready” or “Working on Updates”). Maybe aiming low in their explanations is their one-button-mouse moment.
I don’t think the users were ever all tech-illiterate on either platform. Only perceptions have changed.
Up until Android and iOS mostly phones and tablets, we had a monoculture Intel and Windows. Windows is still almost 90% of actual laptop/desktop users. [1]
I am an ex-Mac developer. I do not have a modern Mac, I do not have an iPhone, and I set the date/time format to pretty much whatever I want on Linux, Windows, and 15 year old Mac OS X. And, I just have to deal with broken date/time interfaces on the web. For far too long, I would go along with the Intel / Windows developer monoculture of "good enough" software, and comments like Mac? Linux? What's that?
[1] https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share...
Took me a week or so to get used to Mac. I can't care less about what OS I'm using, they all excel and suck in different ways.
This is an unsubstantiated claim, why bring up and bundle the entire United States to support your claim? I was with you until this.
I don't even live in US. But this culture certainly exists here too.
[1] https://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/34950/which-large...
The world does have a variety of options, so users need to live with the fact that they're going to have to discover things, and designers are going to have to live with the hassle of designing for users with a variety of experiences. That makes the best possible UX worse than it would otherwise be. It's a necessary evil, but it's not surprising that a lot of developers try to wish it away, especially when they can get away with that, at least initially.
Most users use Chrome on desktop and mobile.
Anecdotally, most engineers I know use Chrome on a MacBook. The only people I know who use Safari are my parents.
All you need is one Windows or Linux-based developer in your team to catch those kind of issues. But so many dev teams are macOS-only those days, whereas, apart from US and 2-3 other rich countries, 80%+ or even more of actual desktop users are Windows-based.
(There are many other problems with macOS monoculture, for example, the spread of ultrathin fonts that look nice and crisp on retina macbook but result in very low contrast rendering on Windows).
US-based devs: outside of your country (that is, >95% of humanity), most people do not have a Mac, an iPhone, nor use MM/DD/YYYY dates and 12-hour clock.