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Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by thom on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @08:11PM (#19915137)
This is apparently an English word that has completely bypassed the English, because I've never heard the word 'lox' for 'smoked salmon' in my life. Did this somehow go from mainland Europe straight to America?
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by slg on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @08:23PM (#19915210)
It came to English via Yiddish and therefore via the Jewish people. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot more Yiddish words in American English than British English considering the size of the Jewish populations in both countries, the timelines for their immigration, and the roles they have traditionally taken in society.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by MagicPropmaker on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @12:53AM (#19916531)
Here in Israel, where I spend about half my time split between Tel Aviv and Silicon Valley, it's called not by the Hebrew term for "smoked salmon" but by the Yiddish word "לאָקס" (spelled as לוקס in Hebrew)

I was born in Brooklyn, to a Yiddish speaking family. Occasionally I use a Yiddish word in Israel and I'm met by a blank stare. 60% of the Jewish population here came from countries like Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, etc, where nobody knew Yiddish.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by simonh on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @05:11AM (#19917620)
Could you give a phonetic representation of that, for non-Yiddish speakers? Thanks.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by throwaway_vnkqd on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @07:18AM (#19918279)
In Yiddish it would be something like "lux" as in "deluxe" or "bucks". In contemporary Israeli Hebrew, that vowel doesn't exist so it would be pronounced somewhere between the "ucks" in "bucks" and the "olks" in "yolks" or "folks".
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by js2 on Thursday May 16, 2019 @04:10PM (#19932625)
Both words are spellings of "lox." Also, lox isn't smoked, it's salt cured. Cold smoked salmon is usually called nova.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by falcor84 on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @09:32PM (#19915587)
It took me quite a few rereadings before it finally clicked that you're probably not implying that there are more words in American English originating from Yiddish than those coming from British English words.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by ghayes on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @10:05PM (#19915785)
Yes to clarify I believe OP is implying: there are more Yiddish words in current American English than there are Yiddish words in current British English.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by slg on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @11:25PM (#19916150)
Exactly. Sorry, I probably phrased that original comment poorly.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by Fnoord on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @05:55AM (#19917831)
Amsterdam Dutch vocabulary contains a plethora of Yiddish words which are commonly used, though not outside of Amsterdam. Hence it is in contrast to the rest of The Netherlands where you'll still find a few being used but not nearly as much and ingrained as Amsterdam.

Its not merely the dialect, its also the accent. The hard Dutch 'g' isn't spoken in everywhere in The Netherlands (for example the south doesn't use it).

A musical piece about the Amsterdam Dutch dialect is Osdorp Posse - Origineel Amsterdams [1]. It contains a lot of Amsterdam Dutch vocubulary. As someone who cannot speak Dutch, see if you can recognize any Yiddish words?

[1] https://lyrics.fandom.com/wiki/Osdorp_Posse:Origineel_Amster...

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by klipt on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @12:50AM (#19916518)
Wiktionary says "lox" comes via Yiddish: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lox#Etymology_1

However the closely related "lax", used in some English dialects and in Scotland, also means salmon and comes, via Old English, from the same root: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lax#Etymology_1

So maybe ask your Scottish friends?

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by endoftime5 on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @02:58AM (#19917013)
I’m Scottish and as soon as I saw “lox” I wondered if it was related to “lax”. Not a common word but have encountered it a few times. I also quite like gravlax which I suppose comes from the same origin!
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by amarant on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @01:38AM (#19916713)
That's surprising! I know the Scottish dialects has a lot of Scandinavian influences, (ex they say "barn" to mean children)

Lax is Swedish for salmon, so I would've expected a similar root for that word! Some quick googling suggests the Swedish variant has roots in the Germanic and Baltic languages, which are not directly related to Yiddish afaik. Funny how languages are so similar sometimes, seemingly by chance!

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by gargarplex on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @02:27AM (#19916892)
> the Swedish variant has roots in the Germanic and Baltic languages, which are not directly related to Yiddish afaik

In fact, Yiddish is Judeo-German and has elements from Slavic languages.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by felixyz on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @05:44AM (#19917776)
Yiddish is a germanic language with Hebrew elements. If you know German or a Scandinavian language, you can understand a fair bit of written Yiddish just by squinting and guessing along.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by daleharvey on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @02:21AM (#19916876)
lol "bairn"

A Barn is still a farm building in Scotland

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by jacobush on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @02:29AM (#19916901)
Yeah, but ignoring spelling and instead listening to how it's pronounced - it's the same. My Swedish grandmother pronounced it pretty much exactly to how Scottish sounds to me.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by noir_lord on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @03:38AM (#19917182)
Not just Scotland, Part of north England I'm from "Bairn" is very widely used (but we had a massive Viking presence that still shows up in place names and such).
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by simonh on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @05:18AM (#19917665)
My mother's family are from Durham and my grandmother called us 'the bairns'. Also pigs were swine and when we were ill we were 'out of fettle'. I've no trace of it in my own speech now, but still love the sound of it.

I once went to Norway and it seemed to me like they were speaking German with a Geordie accent.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by Angostura on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @04:17AM (#19917363)
I've always heard 'bairn' and 'barn' pronounced quite differently, with the former rhyming with 'air'
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by OJFord on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @04:34AM (#19917429)
In my (English) head, a Scottish (and even more so Irish) accent does pronounce 'barn' to rhyme with 'air' too though.

Of course I'm probably doing a terrible impression of each in my head.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by daleharvey on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @06:06AM (#19917884)
There are some strong accents that could pronounce them similiarly, the islands / getting close to irish could pronounce the "air" in "barn". But in general / central belt those words are pronounced differently
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by jacobush on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @08:06AM (#19918557)
I was more implying that the Swedish pronunciation of its "barn" is more like English "air". (For some Swedish dialects.) The takeaway, when comparing related languages, don't think too much about spelling. Compare how actual people say words, and you will often find striking similarities.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by alasdair_ on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @12:01PM (#19920706)
>Yeah, but ignoring spelling and instead listening to how it's pronounced - it's the same

I’m Scottish and pronounce the two words quite differently. “Bairn” sounds like “bear” with an “n” at the end and “barn” has a much harder “a” sound.

Interestingly, “burn” is a common word for a small stream in Scotland, but I digress.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by WAHa_06x36 on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @03:59AM (#19917269)
....maybe read the article?
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by Mordisquitos on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @08:49AM (#19918848)
The only time I heard the word "lox" was when I was a kid and had the James Bond film You Only Live Twice on VHS. This is the one where Blofeld is launching rockets from Japan to destroy Soviet and American spacecraft, with the hope of them blaming each other and triggering a war.

For some reason, one of the scenes that stuck in my mind was when the head of the Japanese intelligence services (Tanaka?) and Bond are reviewing the receipts that the latter managed to steal from the company they suspect is acting as a front for Spectre. Tanaka is reading out a perfectly innocent list of items and comes across a huge order for "lox", and asks Bond what that means. At first he just defeatedly dismisses as an American word for smoked salmon, but then has a brainwave and says something like "But... it can also be a shorthand for Liquid Oxygen, which is needed to power rockets!".

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by thrower123 on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @08:20PM (#19915193)
The only places that call it lox are places that have considerable Jewish populations, even in the US. I never heard smoked salmon called lox until I lived next door to a Hillel house in college.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by peatmoss on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @12:19AM (#19916385)
This thread surprises me. I grew up in Montana, non-jewish, without a particularly large nearby jewish population, and yet I’m sure I learned the word lox as a youngster.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by Doctor_Fegg on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @02:35AM (#19916931)
Doctor Seuss.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by not2b on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @08:35PM (#19915297)
The call it that in Germany as well, though they spell it differently: lachs.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by Fnoord on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @05:56AM (#19917833)
Lachs is salmon, not to be confused with seelachs which is just (Atlantic) cod. Don't confuse the two in a restaurant. I made that mistake once. Couldn't believe the price either until we got our dish. Needless to say, mistakes were made...
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by SOLAR_FIELDS on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @11:38PM (#19916212)
Lax in Swedish. Pronunciation in all three languages is pretty similar though.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by lloydde on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @08:41PM (#19915326)
> only places that call it lox

Counter-example: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by empath75 on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @09:39PM (#19915621)
It’s pretty common in any city on the east coast of the us.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by yellowapple on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @08:33PM (#19915281)
Yeah, it's a loanword, and thus about as much an English word as "quesadilla" or "kebab".
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by umanwizard on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @11:35PM (#19916194)
I don’t perceive “Quesadilla” as being foreign at all. It’s just as English as any other English word.

Some words that are fully considered English have an even more convoluted history than this. The word for “chocolate” came from Spanish, and came to Spanish from Nahuatl which is completely unrelated to English, and may (though it gets obscure here) have in turn come to Nahuatl from an unrelated Mayan language.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by empath75 on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @09:30PM (#19915574)
English is almost nothing but loan words.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by umanwizard on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @11:28PM (#19916164)
This is a serious exaggeration.

English does have a lot of loan words, but they are comparatively less frequently used than non-loan words. The overwhelming majority of the most commonly used core vocabulary is descended straight from Old English.

In fairness, there are some major counterexamples: “they”, “use”, and “people” are loan words in the core vocabulary.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by posterboy on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:20PM (#19931433)
Edit: oh youou were talking about proper literarry borrowings. still though ...

"does" or at least do-support comes from celtic.

"have" is pretty close ot "avoir", and b/v (viz Ger "haben" is not a common sound correspondance.

"a" is not a word, it's a particle so short so that saying it descended is almost non-sensical. The proper form would be "an" (and even french "un" agrees).

"of", again a meaningless particle. There went so much wrong with prepositions, too, since PIE, they got turned up-side down, literally.

"non" rings of French, not German.

"to be" mostly changed since Germanic, and not straight forward either.

"than", nope, not original.

word has a fine root, most I'll take, core is not core vocabulary, the developed seemingly independently, but analogue to other Germanic languages, this, that are OK but close to Fr. ce, ca anyway, is is still pretty close to Latin est, Germanic or not ...

You were saying?

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by Endy on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @10:10PM (#19915805)
Wasn't it said that English isn't a language, but a bunch of midget dialects in an overcoat who trap nice languages in alleys, beat them, and rifle their pockets for loose grammar?
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by umanwizard on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @11:31PM (#19916176)
Actually the presence of non-Anglo-Saxon vocabulary in English is not because of English “stealing” anything, but because England was colonized and ruled by non-English-speaking people for centuries.

I.e. saying English stole from French is a bit like saying Hindi, Irish, or Navajo stole from English. Gets the power relations completely backwards.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by empath75 on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @07:12AM (#19918250)
That applies to basically French and Norse loan words from the Middle English period. It doesn’t apply to the large number of Latin and Greek loanwords or anything more recent.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by umanwizard on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @11:16AM (#19920228)
Well, Latin was the lingua franca in Europe for a very, very long time. So it's a bit like how languages all over the world now have English loanwords. Still not because of English "stealing" anything.

You could make a case for the validity of this quip for more recent loanwords, but there are relatively few of those compared to French, Norse, and Latin.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by bloak on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @05:21AM (#19917675)
I think about 30% of the words in an English text are loan words, and I would guess that's quite a high proportion compared to other modern European languages, but not particularly amazing.

The definition of loan word is a bit vague, of course, and the origin of some words is uncertain, and the proportion of loan words will depend a bit on the topic and the style of writing.

(There are 72 words in the previous two paragraphs, if you expand "30%" and "that's". So about 22 of them should be loan words? Seems plausible ...)

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by brlewis on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @08:18PM (#19915179)
English has evolved more in England than in New England the past few hundred years. From what I've heard New England accents are closer to what English accents used to be than modern English accents are. Perhaps lox fell out of use in England but not here.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by asveikau on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @09:34PM (#19915600)
I have heard similar claims, but I think I wouldn't look to New England for that.

Example: Most English accents today don't pronounce an R if a vowel doesn't follow it ("non rhotic"). This is also true in accents of New York, New England, and parts of the US southeast.

However, a few hundred years ago English accents were all rhotic, like the majority of the US. I had heard somewhere that the non-rhotacism was actually adopted in the northeast and affluent south after it became popular in England and also after colonization by people who would have pronounced all the Rs. That is to say some well to do US accents kept up with changes occurring in places like London.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by jrumbut on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @10:01PM (#19915747)
The R dropping accent in New England is limited to a surprisingly small group of people. Same with New York I believe.

Outside of some parts of Boston we pick up those Rs our friends drop and put them to use.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by ErikAugust on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @10:34PM (#19915929)
I grew up a few miles from Boston. No one had a Boston accent, save for people who moved from certain areas.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by TravHatesMe on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @11:20PM (#19916131)
For me that is slightly disappointing, I find that there is some real character in that accent. From my (outsider's) perspective it is something classic to east coast American cities. An accent that brings forth unapologetic honesty and "bustin' your balls" kind of humour.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by scottlocklin on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @07:20PM (#19924728)
It's a social class marker; plenty of people have it, but if you're hanging around a college with a lot of upper middle class teeth gritting cheesebags and hangers on, you may never hear it.

I grew up with a western mass accent, which is a sort of lighter version of bahston with less non-rhoticity. I can turn it off, but lately choose not to, also for social class reasons.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by bin0 on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @08:50AM (#19918858)
I have an old relative who has the classic, very thick Boston accent. It is always fun to have her say, "park the car in the Harvard Yard", and she is willing to humor us. You are correct that most younger people don't, though some have a less significant one. Accents are disappearing among the young, which is somewhat sad, albeit inevitable. Newscasters never have an accent, most characters do not (and when they do, it's a "difference" of some sort), and people move around too much for them to survive. A Texas accent used to be John Wayne, now it is used on comedy shows to represent the "uneducated, fat, cousin-marrying red-neck bumpkin". At least we have recording technology now, so future generations can hear them.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by code_duck on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @01:30AM (#19916667)
I moved from the southwest US to New England as a child, specifically Hartford, Connecticut. I definitely heard this accent… ‘cah’ for car.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by Spooky23 on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @12:03AM (#19916318)
Accent is defined based on where you grew up from age 10-12.

Distinctive communities get broken up now and disrupted by media.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by bin0 on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @08:52AM (#19918877)
> Accent is defined based on where you grew up from age 10-12.

Not so. Maybe this is true in many cases, but I personally know of at least one outlier: a relative who grew up in West Virginia, lost her accent to work in radio and news, and when older re-married to a man from Texas with a heavy accent and developed one herself.

It is also the case that many people slip back into accents as they age.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by gumby on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @02:41AM (#19916949)
I went to high school in the city of Boston with boys from all over the city. The different neighborhoods had different accents.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by asveikau on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @11:26PM (#19916154)
I think it's dying out and seen as less prestigious. Shame, because it sounds pretty cool.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by barberousse on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @08:45PM (#19915346)
Not just English in England wrt New England, but everywhere in the new world this is the case: Quebecois descends from an older form of French, Brazilian Portuguese from an older form of Portuguese (modern European Portuguese is insane to listen to next to Brazilian Portuguese), same for Spanish. The wonders of isolation!
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by asveikau on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @09:38PM (#19915617)
Spanish also has interesting geographical stories alongside that narrative. Eg. Latin America lacks an /θ/ sound because the colonizers came from places like Seville.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by solipsism on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @09:53PM (#19915712)
The claim wasn't about New England English deriving from an older form of the language. The claim is that today's New England English more closely resembles that older form than today's England English.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by barberousse on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @02:31PM (#19973229)
Those aren't equivocal? We're just putting the emphasis on one end or the other it looks like
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by ThePadawan on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @02:03AM (#19916802)
There doesn't even have to be an ocean in between countries - Modern Swiss German shares a lot more with Old High German than modern High German, since Switzerland didn't participate in many shifts (e.g. diphthongization) in pronunciation!
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by mixmastamyk on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @10:27PM (#19915900)
Weirder, after hearing Brits scoff at "Americanisms" for years I was pretty surprised to learn that 90% of them actually came from Britain. They even changed their accent late in the millennium. You can go to see Shakespeare in its original accent and it sounds closer to Welsh/Irish/American than the Queeen's English.

The more you know…

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by NeedMoreTea on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @12:12AM (#19916359)
If you ignore Webster's aberrations - as every attempt to simplify spelling historically, has ended up complicating it, and he was no exception there... Like the 16th century attempt to simplify the language that had scholars adding letters so it was more internally consistent with Latin or Greek roots. Thus debt was created from det, doubt from dowt, scythe from sythe and hundreds of others, and a few got shorter - warre becoming war is the only one I can remember. The other reforms and "simplifications" weren't prettier.

A surprising amount of Americanisms, and even spellings - like recognize instead of recognise - not only started here, but were once preferred as more correct! It's only fairly recently that The Times - last 20 or 30 years - dropped "Oxford spelling" (As the OED goes that way too). Nowadays if you use that variant someone will inevitably cry Americanism. Web spell checker is, of course, whining about -ize above as it's in GB mode.

Yet it cuts both ways - there's a lot of real Americanisms that have been forgotten in the US and are never identified as such in the UK.

Got/gotten - British laziness or fashion decided gotten was no longer necessary somewhere along the line. Yet we still use forgot and forgotten. Go figure.

Given the sheer quantity of English that's been begged, borrowed and stolen from other parts of the world, I don't understand the singular picking out of Americanisms. Though the US "I could care less" clearly only makes sense as GB's "I couldn't care less".

Shakespeare's jokes and puns work SO much better in original pronunciation. Received pronunciation needs to die in a fire.

Peace. :)

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by SiVal on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @12:40AM (#19916465)
"I couldn't care less" is the proper American form and the only form I heard growing up in the US. In recent decades, I have of course encountered the "could care less" form many times, but it's like "same difference" meaning "same thing": something that professional copy editors (which I used to be) will still probably repair unless it's being used to paint a picture of a character.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by bovine3dom on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @03:02AM (#19917034)
> every attempt to simplify spelling historically has ended up complicating it

Have you looked into Korean at all? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul is a quite remarkable success story in changing spelling with the aim of increasing literacy rates.

---

I don't know why some of us dislike 'Americanisms' so much. Some of it will just be resistance to change - the advent of the internet meant a fairly sudden exposure to written en-US.

Anecdotally, I'm the only one amongst my friends who cares about these things. The skyrocketing usage of Americanisms really grinds my gears.

Maybe after Brexit we'll get an Académie Anglais to settle these arguments for those of us who still want to speak the King's.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by NeedMoreTea on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @04:16AM (#19917360)
I think partially Daily Mail fake outrage, and as quite a few of our historic shifts in spelling and pronunciation have been for fashion or affectation, a degree of having another reason to feel superior to some other group. Not forgetting the old U, non-U garbage.

Course no one ever told the Mail that some of Webster's reforms and American spellings came from Shakespeare either. He was far more phonetic than modern spelling either side of the Atlantic - as was everyone back then. Then you discover Shakespeare's spelling wasn't even consistent with himself and used at least a few words both ways - color and colour springs to mind.

Surely it will be as successful as Académie Française has been preventing French adoption of le computer, le weekend and all the rest? ie not at all. :)

It's all a bit silly. No one yells Indianism, well Tamil, when someone talks of going for a curry, yet we probably acquired almost as many from India as the US.

Edit: Hadn't been aware of of that aspect of Korea - and that North and South hugely disagree on number of letters! Most extensive change I knew was Indonesia after independence, adopting Indonesian from Malay when there's hundreds of native languages, and most spoke something else.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by kwhitefoot on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @01:51AM (#19916759)
Gotten is a perfectly ordinary word in Scottish and Northern Isles English.

And -ize is perfectly acceptable to many British English spell checkers. Unfortunately it seems impossible to find one that will reject -ise spellings when the -ize one is the more etymologically 'correct'.

For instance, I am using Firefox with a British English checker and it, correctly, allows "advertise" but not "advertize"; however, it also allows both "mythologize" and "mythologise" when only the first would be accepted in the Oxford tradition.

I'll be sticking with the advice in Fowler's Modern English Usage, Second Edition.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by bovine3dom on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @02:29AM (#19916899)
You just need to find en-GB-oxendict [1]. Oxford spelling is used quite heavily in academia so it ought to be easy to burglarise ;)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_spelling

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by kwhitefoot on Friday May 17, 2019 @04:04PM (#19943045)
Shouldn't that be burglarize? Except of course that in British English it would just be burgle.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by bovine3dom on Friday May 17, 2019 @04:14PM (#19943146)
Yeah - it was a joke :)
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by dboreham on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @07:23AM (#19918304)
Hmm...somewhere in Scotland other than where I grew up. For me gotten only existed in US movies, and "I'll gotten gains".
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by NeedMoreTea on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @04:17AM (#19917362)
Everyone seems to want the 50 year old Fowler's. :)
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by mixmastamyk on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @12:50AM (#19916517)
Interesting. My understanding is that -ize comes from the older Greek, while -ise is the French version. Which makes for a fun discussion when Brits claim it as their own.

There's a good wiki on the subject if others are interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_s...

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by kwhitefoot on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @01:54AM (#19916770)
See the article on "-ize, -ise in verbs" in Fowler's Modern English Usage, Second Edition, where he makes the point that it is the French who changed from -ize to -ise.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by mixmastamyk on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @11:43AM (#19920517)
Yes, that was the point I was trying to make.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by barberousse on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @02:33PM (#19973275)
The other side this exposes to me is that America, in terms of its overall European-descended demographic, is more Irish, Scots, German than Anglican by far
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by Broken_Hippo on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @08:08AM (#19918572)
One of my challenges learning Norwegian has been dialects. There is a "standard" written form. The dialects, however, might pronounce things differently, completely change a few words, or change the way you use or conjugate verbs. (Not to mention that there are 2 varients of Norwegian, but that's another story.). Immigrants are taught the straighforward version - an "Oslo dialect".

The reason for this is mountains and isolation. You get a few villages that interact or a region that does so, and it varies wildly over the years before television and radio. People have simply kept the dialects in the modern age. Some are harder for native Norwegians than others, but supposedly they should all be understood.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by Accacin on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @03:38AM (#19917179)
No, this isn't true at all and is a complete oversimplificiation. The whole rhotic 'R' is just one small part of an accent. Secondly, what is 'a British accent'? They change so often over here.

It's just one of those 'facts' that seems sensible until you think about it a little bit.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by rmc on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @04:25AM (#19917392)
Trying to define one English accent now or even 200 years ago is futile.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by caymanjim on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @04:22AM (#19917384)
Appalachian English dialects in the US are supposed to be closest to those of London at the time of American colonization. Lox is a yiddish word, though, and while it may phonetically be widespread (as the article claims), the spelling and exact pronunciation in modern English likely spread with German Jewish immigrants. That's particular true in the northeastern US. The parent commenter was unfamiliar with the term, but anyone who grew up around New York would be familiar with it as a common deli item.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by jjtheblunt on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @08:26PM (#19915233)
Oxford Dictionary of English cites it as North American, via immigrants' Yiddish.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by hak8or on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @11:07PM (#19916073)
Do you never get bagels for lunch or breakfast? Bagals and lox is extremely common where I am for breakfast.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by gambiting on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @05:30AM (#19917715)
Yes we do. But I've never ever heard anyone refer to a salmon and bagel refereed to as lox. My only association was with Gravlax, but I've never heard of lox.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by beatgammit on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @07:12PM (#19924689)
I've never heard the term, then again I've only ever purchased bagels from grocery stores and bakeries. We have an Einstein Bagle shop fairly close by, but I've only ever had them when someone brings them to the office.

I've heard of lachsfisch (sp?) in German for salmon, and I think the Swedish term is similar, so if I ever heard the term, I probably attributed it to German. I've certainly had a lot of smoked salmon spread and smoked salmon by itself, I've just don't recall ever hearing it referred to in English as anything other than "smoked salmon".

So yeah, I recognize that word as German or Swedish, not English.

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by rat87 on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:40AM (#19926709)
If you look at Einstein Bagles menu they have

Nova Lox and Schmear (yiddish for smear/spread which is usually cream cheese or flavored cream cheese)on the menu.

I'd say both terms(lox(originally pronounced lacks) and shmear) are sufficiently commercialized that they are common at any bagel place even outside of cities with large Jewish populations.

At least in the US, maybe not in the UK.

Also note that most lox isn't actually lox. Traditional Jewish Lox is brined salmon belly. These days lox usually refers to any smoked salmon, especially less salty types then traditional lox

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by solidsnack9000 on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @12:54AM (#19916535)
Maybe the article is playing things up a little, by suggesting there is an unbroken line of descent from English "lox" all the way back to Khurgan "lox". Clearly English lost and then regained the word.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by mc32 on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @09:25PM (#19915546)
Gravlax? Although a slightly different kind of lox.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by Sharlin on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @12:17AM (#19916378)
That’s a loan from Swedish though.
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by wowtip on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @05:44AM (#19917777)
In Swedish:

Lax = Salmon

Grava = preparing raw salmon (or other fish/meat) by keeping it in a mixture of salt, sugar and spices.

Salt and sugar keeps the fish from spoling, lactic acid bacteria preserves the fish. Back in the days this was done by digging a hole in the ground, cover the fish with spruce/fresh leaves and salt. Then lleaving it lying there for a couple of days. This also gives the origin of the word "grava" which in this context would bean "bury".

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by Sharlin on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @06:22AM (#19917976)
> This also gives the origin of the word "grava" which in this context would bean "bury".

And is cognate to English "grave" as in a burial place! Other cognates are Middle English (and modern Dutch) "graven", and German "graben", both meaning "to dig". Ultimately deriving from Proto-Germanic *grabaną. "Groove" is also related. Interestingly the adjective sense of "grave" in English (as in "serious") is of unrelated Romance origin (cf. "gravid", "gravity", "gravitas").

Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by tk75x on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @07:42AM (#19918411)
Similar to "grob" in Russian where the "o" is pronounced like in "open".
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by w0land on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @02:18PM (#19922178)
Very similar to gropë in Albanian which means hole Gërrmoj - to dig a hole
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by Sharlin on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @02:51AM (#19916994)
(Edit: although the words are cognates, naturally.)
Re:The word “lox” hasn't changed in sound or meaning in 8k y... by unixbeard1337 on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @08:14PM (#19915158)
Via Yiddish, I believe.