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Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @09:24AM (#18542467)
While I don’t care either way about the lawsuit, he did make one great point. Apple under Tim Cook is more concerned about being profitable through rent seeking than making products that people are willing to pay a premium for.

On an unrelated note, when people call Apple a monopoly because the only way that you can reach IOS users is via the App Store, I always say how is that different than the console makers[1]? But even more broadly, if you want to reach Facebook users you have to go through the Facebook and the same with Google and Amazon. How are any of the other platform providers any different?

[1] yes the physical media you buy for consoles still has to be approved by the console makers, they are cryptographically signed and they have to pay a license fee to the console makers.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by snowwrestler on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @11:19AM (#18543606)
> Apple under Tim Cook is more concerned about being profitable through rent seeking than making products that people are willing to pay a premium for.

This just does not match any available data. Look at where Apple gets the bulk of its revenue and profits: hardware products and optional services.

Look at their investment: the bulk of it goes toward developing new products and acquiring new technical capabilities.

Look at their pay services, none of which are required. You don't have to buy apps from the App Store; many apps are available for free, including almost all of Apple's own apps. You don't have to subscribe to Apple Music. You don't have to use iCloud for backups, for photo management, for anything, really. You don't have to use Apple Pay.

Look at their open access to the Internet. You can load any website you want in Safari... don't want the Facebook app? Just go to facebook.com, it works great.

Look at their most popular service, iMessage, which is still free.

Look at their required software updates, which are all free. New iOS? Install it for free. New version of Garage Band? Download it for free.

I think people are getting confused about what "rent seeking" actually means. Apple's paid services are upsells.

Rent payments are not optional (just like paying rent for real estate--you have to live somewhere). Microsoft made tens of $billions charging for non-optional OS updates and application updates... that was rent seeking. Again: note that Apple does not charge for their software updates!

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by aetherson on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:02PM (#18545501)
You're misunderstanding what the phrase "rent seeking" means. It doesn't have to do with how essential a product or service is.

The point of a rent, in economic terms, is that the person who is selling it does not add substantial value to the product or service. They just leech value.

The analogy is to someone who holds ancestral lands and rents them out unimproved. They get some chunk of the economic value that the land produces, without ever having put their own labor or their own capital into the transaction.

The argument is that the 30% fee that Apple charges on the app store is a rent in the software produced by other parties, with Apple adding little to the transaction.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by tptacek on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:06PM (#18545555)
Besides the app store itself, and the process by which Apple grooms apps for suitability for that store, and the payment processing system that enables people to buy apps without busting out a credit card?
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by aetherson on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:20PM (#18545711)
Yes, I agree that the argument is not watertight.

The counterargument is, "Okay, so let there be multiple app stores on iOS, that compete with each other, and let the market price that package of services."

But regardless, let's not talk about whether Apple is providing luxuries or necessities -- that's not what rents are about.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by eridius on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:20PM (#18545717)
And besides all of the work Apple does to develop and maintain the APIs and frameworks that apps use?
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by solarkraft on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:41PM (#18546469)
What if I don't want these "services"?
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by tptacek on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @04:08PM (#18546768)
Whether you want them or not has little to do with the question of whether the App Store is rent-seeking, which is the question I was addressing. Rent-seeking isn't another term for "I don't like it".
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by ballenf on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @11:40AM (#18543816)
You may be strictly technically correct, but it doesn't reflect reality:

- iCloud free tier is 5gb -- not enough for even a casual phone user with 1 minute 4k 60fps video (option on iPhones for 2-3 years now) takes 400mb.

- The alternative to "paid" apps are ad-supported apps. You're paying either with your bank account or your data and attention. I don't think we should call this optional and otherwise encourage ad-based ecosystem. (And, side note, I argue Apple should also tax ad revenue to prevent the current artificial advantage ad revenue has over IAP.)

The rent seeking point from Stratechery is taken directly from Apple's own earnings calls where they are now measuring their success based on revenue from this rent-seeking instead of on devices sold.

Whatever is measured will drive the company focus. To sell more devices they have to innovate and increase excellence. To increase rents they have to wring more and more $$ from existing users (with a secondary focus on increasing the hassle of switching). Apple themselves explain that they have shifted their focus from the former to the latter.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by votepaunchy on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:43PM (#18544568)
> - iCloud free tier is 5gb -- not enough for even a casual phone user with 1 minute 4k 60fps video (option on iPhones for 2-3 years now) takes 400mb.

To note, there are a plethora of apps offering to backup users' photos and videos ... Google, Dropbox, OneDrive, etc.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @11:57AM (#18544024)
And to add on, many of the “free apps” make money via in app consumables - mostly games. There is a reason why the top grossing apps are games like Candy Crush and Clash of Clans.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by snowwrestler on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:58PM (#18544759)
> The rent seeking point from Stratechery is taken directly from Apple's own earnings calls where they are now measuring their success based on revenue from this rent-seeking instead of on devices sold.

I challenge you to find one instance of Apple describing their own strategy as “rent seeking”.

Again: people are getting confused. Optional paid services are not the same thing as rent seeking.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:27PM (#18545086)
Rent seeking is the amount that Apple charges for media it sells.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by IBM on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:55PM (#18544719)
>The rent seeking point from Stratechery is taken directly from Apple's own earnings calls where they are now measuring their success based on revenue from this rent-seeking instead of on devices sold.

I don't follow how talking about it on earnings calls makes it "rent seeking". The App Store cut has only gone down since it was launched (for subscriptions after a year).

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by clairity on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:20PM (#18545019)
> "> Apple under Tim Cook is more concerned about being profitable through rent seeking than making products that people are willing to pay a premium for."

> "This just does not match any available data. Look at where Apple gets the bulk of its revenue and profits: hardware products and optional services."

you seem to be looking backwards but the statement you rebut is forward-looking.

yes, apple historically made its profits on hardware, but the point the parent and the article is making is that apple's business model is changing toward services and rent-seeking through its platforms like the app store.

> "Rent payments are not optional..."

the 30% apple charges for apps is not optional. as implied by the article, apple could charge 50% and developers would have no choice but to eat that cost.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by snowwrestler on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @07:31PM (#18548222)
Apple’s gross margin is typically around 37% or 38%. I don’t see how charging a 30% service fee is going to improve profitability.

Apple is trying to grow profits via paid services like Apple Music or Apple Pay, but those are optional upsells, not rent seeking.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by zepto on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:32PM (#18545143)
Services are not rent seeking.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by clairity on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:25PM (#18546327)
sure, but totally beside the point.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by zepto on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @08:59AM (#18551456)
“the point the parent and the article is making is that apple's business model is changing toward services and rent-seeking through its platforms like the app store.”

If you take out the mention of services, this statement becomes false.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by ksec on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @12:54AM (#18549575)
How much does it cost to run, from Programmers to Hardware infastructure for iMessages ( Free ), App Store ( Free ), iCloud 5GB per account ( Free )? I am betting less than $2B a year.

Apple gets $9 Billion from Google just for being default search engine.

And people continue to mix this "Services" Revenue from App Store as investment to Software, Garage Band, iWork, iOS Development etc.... They had been part of the product cost for YEARS before the 30% cut. Apple didn't need App Store revenue to continue developing OSX when iPhone didn't exist. It is what makes software as an industry so profitable in the first place, the cost of making the same software is the same regardless of 100 customer of 100 million customer. And now Apple has 800 million iPhone customers, or 250M customer every year.

I say this again, most developer aren't really concern with the 30% cut as it is, people not happy because they are not getting enough value from it. If Apple had offer additional developer services from that 30% cut it would have made them easier to swallow. Instead Apple is just happily collecting cash and do nothing.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by jeremy7600 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @11:43AM (#18543850)
It matches this available data: Apple sure as hell gets rent from their patents. And you don't even have to buy Apple to give them this rent.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by vlozko on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:32PM (#18544447)
I'd like to see any significant report indicating that Apple is making serious money off its patents and is trying to push more into that business. Besides, patent agreements aren't exclusive to Apple; I'm sure a portion of my iPhone purchase is going to Microsoft.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:39PM (#18544522)
And Google bought Motorola basically for its parents and then sold all of it off but it’s patrntd.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by Y7ZCQtNo39 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:42PM (#18544557)
Removing the 3.5mm headphone jack was pretty rent seeking-- they hoped you'd buy the AirPods instead. It wasn't deliberately stated, but it would be in poor taste for them to state it as such.

The headphone jack removal wasn't comparable to past deprecations, like removing the CD drive from laptops -- which provided a significant new amount of space in the chassis.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:46PM (#18544613)
Or you could buy any other Bluetooth headphone, use the adapter they included for two years or use the included headphones.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by Y7ZCQtNo39 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:16PM (#18546251)
The hope is that you'd buy the Apple-branded one. Obviously Bluetooth is an open standard -- but that was the business intent.

An adapter is less convenient to use than having the Headphone jack on the device.

Is it really that farfetched to think they removed the Headphone jack to increase profits? Clearly, I'm arguing for it, but if this absolutely out there, I'd like to be brought back more sensible thought processes.

Not even the included earbuds with an iPhone purchase come with a 3.5mm jack. It's Apple's proprietary port, so you can only use Apple's wired earbuds with Apple products.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:21PM (#18546306)
You mean a company desires for you to buy more stuff from them...amazing.

But why would you think that removing the headphone jack, and including lightning headphones, including an adapter for two years, and supporting standard BT would entice someone to spend $150 when they go to the Apple Store instead of buying wireless headphones?

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by Y7ZCQtNo39 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @06:11PM (#18547760)
It actually has a different result, for someone like myself: it makes me not buy a new iPhone at all.

I like the ability to charge my phone and listen to music simultaneously, without having to worry about my headphones also dying. Usually this is in a travel scenario.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @06:39PM (#18547930)
Have you been following Apple for the last 40 years? They have always been opinionated and willling to not serve every customer.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by Y7ZCQtNo39 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @09:41PM (#18548854)
No need to be impolite. For one, no I haven't, since I'm not 40 years old. Second, they risk losing their core constituencies: the creative industry, and developers.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @10:56PM (#18549183)
It’s not impolite or being insulting. When you try to make a product that is all things to all people, you end up with the HomerMobile.

Their “core constituency” haven’t been Mac buyers in years.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by beckler on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @10:07AM (#18542804)
You can't sideload an app on an iOS device, you can't run unsigned apps, and there is no version of iOS you can run without the App Store. Unless you jailbreak.

You can still run Android without Google Play Services, even though it's not a great experience.

Granted, there are tradeoffs. iOS is more secure in this space than Android, but Android is far more open on what you can do.

For example, Amazon created an app called Amazon Underground that would let you purchase and sideload apps onto your Android device from Amazon. Some of these apps didn't exist in the Play Store, so you had a viable option to buy exclusive titles from someone else.

On iOS, there is zero opportunity for a situation like this to occur. Everything must go through the App Store, and that's why I view it as a monopoly.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @10:12AM (#18542847)
And considering what we have seen in the last fourty years of the PC industry, it’s better to err on the side of security than openness for most consumers. The relatively few who care about openness are free to get an Android phone.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by physicsyogi on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:06PM (#18544123)
> You can't sideload an app on an iOS device, you can't run unsigned apps, and there is no version of iOS you can run without the App Store. Unless you jailbreak.

This is not quite true. If you write your own app you can install it on your iOS device. If someone put an iOS app on, say, Github, you could easily install it. No need for the App Store or Apple's review process. An app does not need to be signed unless you want to submit it to the App Store. Also, you can install iOS without using the App Store if you have a developer account.

I'm not disagreeing with you that iOS is far less open than Android.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by DavideNL on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:32PM (#18544446)
> If you write your own app you can install it on your iOS device.

That's not quite true either. Because an app installed like this will only function for a very limited time (a few weeks i believe) and then it expires and you can no longer start it. This means it is not practical and NOBODY will use this: which explains why there are none/hardly any of such apps available on Github, etc.

I did this with the f.lux app in the past and it was very annoying/not usable because of the necessary "recompile frequency".

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by cinquemb on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:59PM (#18544767)
My wife doesn't seem to mind doing this with gba4ios every week; she just plugs in her phone, opens xcode, toggles her phone as the target and presses play, takes less than a couple of min, and she is no dev by any means. Granted, I had to help her get it up and debug somethings before hand, but in the process, she has become more informed of what all the crap in the background more than she was before.

Though I guess most people may just want to throw their arms up and force the government to write a law to make such easier for free?

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by muro on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:56PM (#18545432)
You need a Mac for that.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by saagarjha on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:00PM (#18546113)
Technically, you don’t. There are ways of doing this on platforms other than macOS; the process is just more complicated.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by pseudalopex on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:53PM (#18564936)
For a free account, the time limit is 7 days.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by vorpalhex on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:40PM (#18544531)
> you could easily install it

Haha, no. Last I did this, you must have a Macbook, you must configure Xcode, generate new certificates, sign the entire application bundle, and then you get to sideload it - and never get an update ever unless you repeat the entire process.

In contrast on Android: "This application is from an unknown source. Would you like to still install it?"

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by saagarjha on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:00PM (#18546105)
You are not required to use macOS to do this. There are third party solutions, such as Cydia Impactor, that are cross platform and do this for you.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by vorpalhex on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @06:55PM (#18548027)
Right, I can pay someone else with a macbook...
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by rjpr on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:05PM (#18544832)
>you must have a Macbook

Technically you just need macOS, I don't think there's anything stopping you from doing iOS development on a hackintosh.

I'll agree that the process is pretty ridiculous in comparison to Android though.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by saagarjha on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:58PM (#18546093)
You must sign apps if you want them to run on nonjaibroken devices. What you are doing in this case is signing it with your development certificate.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by IshKebab on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @10:17AM (#18542900)
I think you missed the point. You can't sideload games on a PlayStation either.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by chimmy_chonga on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @10:40AM (#18543149)
I was about to make this comment as well. The only way to sideload games on any game console is to essentially "jail break" it as well.

Which automatically voids any and all warranties on the product.

Like it was mentioned above, if you want to reach Playstation's, Nintendo's, or Microsoft Xbox's regular warranty abiding customers, you HAVE to go through their marketplaces and gain their approvals and pay their license fees first

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by vorpalhex on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:41PM (#18544545)
Right, but nobody is using their Playstation to do their banking, nor is Playstation in control of 40% of the world's app share.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by votepaunchy on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:46PM (#18544597)
Right, due to Sony's, Nintendo's, and Microsoft's complete lockdown of their app ecosystems.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by vorpalhex on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:07PM (#18544856)
If I sell you a video poker machine, I'm not obligated to allow you to install your banking app across my video poker machines.

If I sell you a general desktop computer and refuse to let you install any banking app aside from Bank of Evil, then I'm probably breaking antitrust statutes.

Playstations and Nintendos are more like video poker machines. Sure, they could theoretically run a bank app, but they're sold as locked down gaming only consoles.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by saagarjha on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:57PM (#18546082)
Google Play Services and the App Store are fundamentally different, since on iOS the equivalent functionality is part of the operating system. The App Store is nothing more than a wrapper around the system installation service: there’s no APIs it provides to developers.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by post_break on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @09:53AM (#18542694)
"On an unrelated note, when people call Apple a monopoly because the only way that you can reach IOS users is via the App Store, I always say how is that different than the console makers[1]? "

Phones have become more than just an electronic device, just like the internet, water, power, in a way. Now I'm not saying you can't live without a phone, just that it's difficult and the general feel is that you must have a cell phone to function in society. So with that mindset not being able to install any app does have some merit.

Everyone "needs" a phone, not everyone "needs" an xbox.

Taking my comment with a grain of salt though, I think that's a generalization but I think that might be why people want iPhones more open over xbox's.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by slantyyz on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @10:25AM (#18542973)
>> Everyone "needs" a phone, not everyone "needs" an xbox.

I would add "not everyone 'needs' an iPhone" to this.

iOS is not the only major OS in the phone market. And like Macs, a significant chunk of people (including normals) choose iOS, knowing that they're participating in Apple's walled garden.

I'm not a huge fan of Apple's rent-seeking behaviour (which is why I left Apple), but because Android exists and is flourishing, I don't think you can necessarily call Apple a monopoly. They only have a monopoly on their own customers, which isn't very different from a lot of businesses who have created their own platform.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by simion314 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @10:52AM (#18543295)
So if Android would be similar to iOS, no side loading, and we have only 2 bad choices each with 50% market share we are still in a shit situation but no monopoly.

What we need is laws for ownership of the hardware, I should be able to ask Apple or Sony to unlock my hardware because it is mine, the warranty is debatable but ownership should not be debatable.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by dhimes on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:37PM (#18544501)
My belief is even more draconian: I believe you shouldn't be able to cross "industries" like that. If you are hardware, you don't do software, and vice-versa. If you deliver content (cable companies) then you don't make content. It's like we're now back to the Andrew Carnegie days.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:29PM (#18545112)
Right because having hardware and software separate has done amazing things for the usability of Android devices and Windows PCs....
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by dhimes on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:48PM (#18545342)
I don't know about android, but I can put virtualbox and a dev stack on windows and do all kinds of stuff. I have a broken terminal emulator on my iphone. So, to your point, yeah.

Edit: I'll add to this point. A couple of nights ago my son accidentally (? i dunno how) a crapload of text messages from his iphone. There's no "eco-friendly" way to get them back. This is a disasterous situation for a teenage boy who struggles socially. They are still on his phone, but he can't get to them because Apple won't let me get to them. There are some sketchy third-party apps that claim for a king's ransom to be able to do it (they showed him a preview then asked him to pay up- that's how he knows they were still there). But I can't get to it at all from linux. Apple deliberately blocks me from accessing my own file system.

That's just mean.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:23PM (#18545750)
Yes because it makes total sense for an app to be able to access another apps private storage. What could possibly go wrong....

If the messages are deleted and still accessible, that’s an even bigger problem. I would hope if I delete s message there would be no way for anyone to retrieve them.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by simion314 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:50PM (#18546032)
But what if Apple delete function does not really deletes things you would need to run a better deleting application like you can on other OSs to be sure a delete is unrecoverable.

The point is about freedom to do what you want with your hardware, give the people a way to remove the restrictions, put a huge warning but let me do what I want with a physical object I own.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by dhimes on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:50PM (#18546033)
Gee, Mr. Sarcastic, aren't we now?

"Delete" has always been separate from "purge" since the beginning of PCs.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by saagarjha on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:14PM (#18546241)
> They are still on his phone, but he can't get to them because Apple won't let me get to them.

What makes you think this is true? iOS clears up space on your disk when you delete messages, so presumably it’s actually clearing them out?

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by dhimes on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:54PM (#18546582)
As I mentioned, but didn't explain: There is online software that you can download to your computer to "rescue" them. Apparently it accesses the file system to get them. He said he knew it had them because the software showed him some of the messages and demanded a fee to restore them. He recognized them.

Mostly, clearing space simply amounts to setting a flag that space is available and it doesn't actually clear stuff. That's what 'shredders' do (as well as overwrite, etc.).

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by simion314 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:46PM (#18546004)
I say it was great for PC, I can build a desktop with CPU from AMD or Intel, I can add if I want a GPU from AMD or NVIDIA, I have a lot of choices for motherboards, power supply, harddrives,optical drives, sound cards or other components. Then I can run Windows,Linux, BSD, ReactOS , toy kernels or OSs . If I want I can create a hardware project ad I do not need to pay someone to let me connect it with my computer.

Though DRM and IntelME is a major step backwards.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:15PM (#18546249)
Most people are buying laptops and every time that Microsoft tries to bring anything new to market with their OS, the race to the bottom OEMs won’t have the hardwarecto support it. Can you imagine Windows PCs having the right integration between the OS and something like the T2 chip?

Even worse is Android. Google releases a new OS and may see low double digit adoption after a year. OEMs have no incentive to push upgrades to their users. iOS’d ArKit can only work as well it does (not saying much bet still better than what Google could muster) because of tight integration between a known subset of hardware and software.

This isn’t even to mention all of the bespoke custom interfaces on Android and all of the adware on consumer PCs and Android Phones.

[dead]
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by dang on Friday November 30, 2018 @10:57PM (#18575037)
Please don't post any more flamewar comments to Hacker News. They're what we're trying to avoid here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @06:00AM (#18550640)
I have no idea what you are getting at, but I can say both when it comes to phones and computers, the integrated offerings from Google is better than any other Android phone and being able to get an update for iOS the day it comes out instead of waiting for the carrier and OEM are much better experiences.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by simion314 on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @07:52AM (#18551053)
The question is In your opinion we should only have integrated "experiences"? aka should MS and Google pull an Apple and not sell the software to the customers , but sell you the hardware with the software included ?
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by microcolonel on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @10:51AM (#18543279)
Seconded.

I do not use a smartphone (my last one broke and the RMA process was too much trouble on top of moving and doing my job, and now I'm used to not having it), and while it seems that some people assume you have one, you can generally get by without one just fine.

Now, I will say: given that Microsoft was charged for bundling IE with Windows in a highly integrated way which competing browsers could not replicate; it seems that some case can be made. Granted, I'd sooner make the case that Paypal is enforcing the anti-competitive desires of their neighbours against those neighbours' competitors.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by jeherr on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @10:04AM (#18542776)
Not everyone “needs” any apps on their phone though. A mobile phone is necessary because we need to make calls, send texts, and receive voicemail. We don’t really need much beyond that. You could make the case for email being a need on the phone, but you don’t need a Facebook app, or Shazaam, or Angry Birds.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by jen729w on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @10:29AM (#18543005)
...and I use Fastmail’s web interface on my iPhone rather than configuring an IMAP service.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by saagarjha on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:16PM (#18546253)
How are you deciding what people “need”?
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by dublidu on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @12:39PM (#18544517)
For many people, their phones are synonymous with the internet. That’s why the App Store being a closed ecosystem is much more troubling than the XBox.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @07:02PM (#18548065)
Luckily there is that little app on iPhones called Safari....
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by snowwrestler on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @10:57AM (#18543346)
iPhones have direct access to the Internet and to the power infrastructure. Apple does not limit which websites can be loaded in Safari, or which emails get delivered, or which electric sockets can charge an iPhone. Anyone in the world can reach an iPhone user by standing up a website and sending some emails.

The issue is the App Store, not the phone. And it's a lot harder to argue that the App Store is public infrastructure, in part because of the open access to the Internet that comes with every iPhone.

Reminder that Apple launched the iPhone with an app concept based only on open Internet access (web apps, no approval needed). They only added an app SDK and the App Store because of public outcry demanding it. Now we want to be mad at them for doing it?

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by __warlord__ on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @11:01AM (#18543399)
> "iPhones have direct access to the Internet and to the power infrastructure. Apple does not limit which websites can be loaded in Safari, or which emails get delivered, or which electric sockets can charge an iPhone"... yet
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by naravara on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @01:54PM (#18554443)
>On an unrelated note, when people call Apple a monopoly because the only way that you can reach IOS users is via the App Store, I always say how is that different than the console makers[1]

It's not really different at all as business models go. In both cases, the value addition of the "shopkeeper" (i.e. Apple or the console maker) is to certify that the product meets certain quality and security standards. Functionally, they're staking their reputation on the apps you buy through them not bricking your device, exfiltrating your data, exposing you to content that is different from what was advertised, or helping you commit crimes. In the app store's case they're also doing some payment processing, customer service, subscription management, etc.

Where it becomes different is a matter of scale and use value. Game consoles are basically toys, so pernicious economic effects on the Playstation store doesn't impact peoples' ability to participate in society the same way those dynamics would on your phone.

>How are any of the other platform providers any different?

This is just the first lawsuit because it has the most direct parallels to existing caselaw. As this gets fleshed out people are going to come for the other digital services too.

Honestly we need to update our anti-trust laws to account for this sort of thing. Many of these functions should be regulated like public utilities rather than as services they way they are now. Vendor lock-in and prohibitive switching costs create lots of room for fleecing customers and consumer protection laws should take that into account.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @02:30PM (#18554812)
Now you want to regulate private companies like public utilities?

The switching cost in the US of changing phones is going to your provider and trading your phone in every six months to a year.

When did not having an app stop people from participating in society? The average iPhone cost well over $600. People buying iPhones aren’t exactly underprivileged.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by naravara on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @04:19PM (#18555782)
>Now you want to regulate private companies like public utilities?

Most public utilities are private companies. That's why it's called regulation and not nationalization.

>The switching cost in the US of changing phones is going to your provider and trading your phone in every six months to a year.

No, most of the switching costs are the costs (monetary and in unpaid labor of learning new tools and workflows) to users of switching from one platform to another. This empowers the gatekeepers to extract higher rents which, by definition, add no value to society.

>When did not having an app stop people from participating in society?

When people start building transportation access into them or make it contingent to being able to do some jobs it becomes a necessary tool for participating in society. The average car costs over $30k, that doesn't mean we would have put up with things like proprietary gas stations either.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @08:01PM (#18557262)
Most public utilities are private companies. That's why it's called regulation and not nationalization.

Public utilities are regulated as such because of the high capital costs to deliver to everyone and the need to gain the right of way to serve people. Last time I checked, Apple didn’t need to dig up roads to connect users. Most people think of utilities as being a public necessity. The right for Pornhub to put an app on the store. Not so much.

When people start building transportation access into them or make it contingent to being able to do some jobs it becomes a necessary tool for participating in society. The average car costs over $30k, that doesn't mean we would have put up with things like proprietary gas stations either.

So now an iPhone is a “necessary tool”?

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by naravara on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:04PM (#18562856)
>Public utilities are regulated as such because of the high capital costs to deliver to everyone and the need to gain the right of way to serve people.

In other words, they're natural monopolies which we regulate because market dynamics don't work when you have a natural monopoly. The same reason we highly regulated and then broke up Bell Telephone and Standard Oil before it.

App stores and online infrastructure are also natural monopolies, but they become so due to agglomeration and network effects. Regardless of the route, the end result is the same.

>So now an iPhone is a “necessary tool”?

A smartphone and its associated app ecosystem is, yes. Google's system isn't much better. And there doesn't seem to be much room for many other players.

Again, regular home telephones were deemed necessary enough to regulate and break up. So was oil refining and finance.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by clairity on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:08PM (#18544872)
> ... how is that different than the console makers[1]?

the differences are subtle, and indicate more of a degree of monopolization than a binary determination (as is always the case).

the console market differs in at least these ways: (1) console makers don't set the prices for games, (2) console makers can't charge any amount of markup on the games, (3) gamers have more mobility among platforms (can switch to PC gaming, for example).

overall, apple has much more control of the producer-to-consumer value chain, and they extract all the excess value in the value chain, which is why it's considered a monopoly even though technically there is competition via android and the play store. for example, and as noted in the article, producers absorb the cost of apple's markup, rather than passing it on to consumers, which indicates apple has all the pricing power in the relationship.

this 30% markup is the rent-seeking behavior of concern in the article. apple's growth is no longer built on innovation, but rather on its market posiiton and ability to extract these rents without providing further, direct value. for investors this is a clear concern (but not necessarily a reason to dump the stock). for consumers, it's a clear concern--we've seen this movie before with the likes of ibm, at&t, microsoft, sony, etc.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by sjwright on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @02:07PM (#18545567)
> (1) console makers don't set the prices for games

Apple doesn't set the prices for apps.

> (2) console makers can't charge any amount of markup on the games

Apple charges a flat percentage; console makers charge a unit cost. I don't know what it is but it's likely in the order of $5-10 per unit. This is likely much higher for digital game sales, and probably includes a percentage component.

> (3) gamers have more mobility among platforms (can switch to PC gaming, for example).

Apple device users have comparable mobility among platforms.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:26PM (#18546341)
https://www.ign.com/articles/2006/05/06/the-economics-of-gam...

The final cost of publishing a game that we'll delve into is the distribution of the game, and that's the process of getting the game sold to wholesalers and then to retailers where you'll then have a chance to buy it. Wholesalers typically pay around $30 per game and with the costs of getting the goods to the wholesalers, any co-op advertising or marketing, and return of good contingencies being roughly $14 per game, the publisher is going to typically get $16 for every unit sold.

This doesn’t include the $3 - $10 per unit that the game maker pays the console manufacturer.

So the typical game maker gets less than 25% of the purchase price of a game. Compared to 70% on the App Store.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:50PM (#18545366)
1) console makers don't set the prices for games, (2) console makers can't charge any amount of markup on the games, (3) gamers have more mobility among platforms (can switch to PC gaming, for example).

Apple doesn’t set the prices on games. In fact, they got sued for illegally collaborating with book publishers for trying to allow publishers to set their own prices - unlike Amazon.

Apple doesn’t “charge a markup” they take a fee for selling games just like the console makers do for both their online games and physical disc. Back in the day, you had to get your media manufactured by the console maker. If it were truly a markup, Netflix and Hulu would charge more for subscriptions via iTunes than on their website.

Users can change phones anytime they want to. In the US, you can switch phones every year or in some cases every 6 months.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by JackFaker on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @03:41PM (#18546470)
I find this comparison to be very peculiar.

Modern "smartphones" are marketed and function as general purpose devices that can also make phone calls. These pocket computers have more in common with laptops with integrated wireless radios and have been positioned to be or become a users primary general purpose computing device.

In contrast, game consoles are designed to be appliances with a limited set of features that serve a specific set of functions. While it is true modern consoles devices are built with mainstream general purpose hardware the intended purpose of these devices is still limited even if it is possible to do more with them.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by beerlord on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @08:52PM (#18548626)
Because there is an immense amount of technical and marketing support from Console makers, who provide the core hardware to the masses below-cost (or with very low margins).

To get onto Consoles in the first place, your product needs to be high enough quality, whereas iOS accepts basically any ol' junk.

The economics are so poor on iOS that it is basically impossible to survive (in games for example) without relying on exploitative free-to-play mechanics. This isn't helped by the fact that iOS lacks a comprehensive and easy to use refund feature that encourages people to try apps for a short time, like Steam offers.

If Apple reduced their commission to 10%, I think this would be of long-term benefit, since it would give them a a direct point of advantage over Android, and we could expect more premium apps and games to be released that actually take advantage of iOS hardware.

Speaking of Steam and Valve, they are the biggest monopolists - selling games for a 30% commission on an open platform - PC! At least Apple still make some great hardware.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @09:05PM (#18548677)
To get onto Consoles in the first place, your product needs to be high enough quality, whereas iOS accepts basically any ol' junk. The economics are so poor on iOS that it is basically impossible to survive (in games for example) without relying on exploitative free-to-play mechanics.

So it sounds like you’re arguing that Apple should have stricter controls...

I can tell you that AppleTV streaming apps were a lot better and more consistent on the 3rd generation AppleTV where Apple did have stricter controls than on the 4th Gen AppleTV.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by beerlord on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @11:11PM (#18549237)
Marketplaces like Apple (and Steam) open themselves up to almost any content in a deliberate attempt to assuage concerns about their monopoly position and practices.

Which is unfortunate for developers, since it means they must stand out from all the other junk (ie. by using expensive and time-consuming advertising and PR) and then pay 30% commissions to the monopolist platform holder if they are successful. Its the worst of both worlds.

I think the solution is simply to uniformly increase the barriers to entry, and the simplest way to do that is monetary. Require $500 for every app or game published, which will quickly increase average quality, but is still a very low barrier for a legitimate creation.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by flukus on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @11:33PM (#18549311)
> I always say how is that different than the console makers

A smart phone is a general purpose computer, a console is an appliance. When the iPhone first came out many people argued that it was a feature phone for this reason.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @04:44AM (#18550348)
There is nothing inherent about the smartphone that makes it a general purpose computer more than the console. Do you remember the big brouhaha when Sony stoped supporting Linux for the PlayStation?
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by alphadelphi on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @09:57AM (#18542717)
I strongly recommend everybody to read "The Age Of Access: The New Culture of Hypercapitalism, Where All of Life is a Paid-For Experience" written by Jeremy Rifkin in the year 2000 (!) when his theory was looking like a sci-fi plot or an ante litteram Black Mirror episode.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by nine_k on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @11:56AM (#18544000)
«The door refused to open. It said, “Five cents, please.” He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight.»

Philip K Dick, Ubik, 1969.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by DavideNL on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @09:58AM (#18542730)
> How are any of the other platform providers any different?

One thing that comes to mind is that a phone is much more personal, carries much more personal data (health data, banking, etc.), and it's something you often interact with the entire day, every day.

So, with Apple closing down the iOS system (for example you cannot inspect/debug ios apps like you can do with apps on a laptop), you end up having less transparency and less control over what apps do with your personal data.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @10:14AM (#18542875)
Your control over which apps have your personal data is far greater on iOS than Windows. You’re not going to inspect every app that you run on your computer, but an app on an iOS device is very limited by both the sandbox that they are in and the granular permissions that iOS provides.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by DavideNL on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @06:23PM (#18547829)
Coincidentally i just see this tweeted by Objective-see...

https://twitter.com/thomasareed/status/1067527911798919172

...which sums up the issue i meant.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @06:53PM (#18548014)
So there is malware on the app that can’t be detected but they know it’s there?

What is this malware able to do? Intercept network traffic? Read other apps data? Surreptitiously record your screen? Turn on your camera? Turn on your Mic? Get to the Secure Enclave?

And then he said.

“Sounds reasonable, but how are you going to determine that when there’s no way to examine the app on the device? Forensic extraction of the app and analysis on a different platform is never going to be a mainstream solution for that.”

Like there ever is a “mainstream solution” to doing forensics.

And guess what? He works for malwarebytes. Anti virus companies have been trying to sell bogus “virus protection” for iOS for a decade.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by contextfree on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @01:07PM (#18544858)
UWP on Windows has a comparable sandbox and permissions system, although your post still probably describes the practical reality for most Windows users at the moment unfortunately.
Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by TheForumTroll on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @11:41AM (#18543831)
> iOS than Windows

Unless you mean Windows on a phone that is completely irrelevant. Unless (when) Apple starts putting only iOS on PC's.

Re:Antitrust, the App Store, and Apple by scarface74 on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @11:59AM (#18544040)
Then what was the original poster comparing it to? People don’t inspect binary compiled apps on any device.