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Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by djsumdog on Thursday September 27, 2018 @04:47PM (#18088479)
I'd hope the company itself would be fine. I really hate this idea of the grand visionary. A good friend of mine who is a mechanical engineer despises Musk.

I listened to a bit of his Joe Regan interview and when Regan asked him how he has the time to do all of the things he does, there are smoke jokes about him being an alien, but not once did he say, "Well I have an amazing team of engineers" and credit all the thousands of people in his organizations that actually do the work.

He made it sound like he just constantly engineers things, but I find it hard to believe that at any point he's sitting down with CAD and fluid dynamic applications and mapping out experiments for rocket prototypes. I don't doubt he's capable of doing that with his background (or learning how to do it) but it's much more likely there is a whole team of really dedicated experts that he just leaves uncredited.

Are Apple products different now that Jobs are gone? One could argue that, but the core people that make and design all their overpriced, planned obsolescence devices are still there, often uncredited, while everyone else likes to focus on the captain of a ship.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by DennisP on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:21PM (#18088804)
I don't know whether he's using CAD but Musk did learn a lot of rocket science. According to aerospace consultant Jim Cantrell, one of his early hires, Musk essentially memorized several textbooks on rocket science, learned more from experts he talked with, and holds his own in engineering discussions.

Sorry for the Business Insider link but this was the best I could google at the moment; Mercury Reader can get around the adwall: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-elon-musk-learned-rocket...

Of course that team of dedicated experts is also there, and Cantrell points that out too. I'm just pointing out that Musk really does do engineering.

Edit: Here's a Quora post by Cantrell. https://www.quora.com/How-did-Elon-Musk-learn-enough-about-r...

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by shanghaiaway on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:45PM (#18089053)
Musk does not do any engineering at all.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by DennisP on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:08PM (#18089232)
I posted a source. Can you?
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by kevin_thibedeau on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:57PM (#18089904)
He's more knowledgeable than the prototypical PHB. However, engineering work requires some form of design analysis (ultimately numerical) to prove that the end result will most likely function. He hasn't done that and no book smarts will instantly make you an engineer. He doesn't need to do that either and is just as important an asset by being a well-informed manager.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by JoshCole on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:24PM (#18090512)
He can't. He lied. There are many people saying untrue things in this thread. Not all of them are as obvious.

I hope to God the auto industry doesn't lose the competition which scares them into changing themselves more rapidly than the coming fires and floods. The whitehouse is no friend to the renewable energy industry, advocating for the reduction of the price of oil.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by shanghaiaway on Saturday September 29, 2018 @01:06AM (#18098796)
You have no source. All you did is claim that Elon read some books.

Elon Musk is not an engineer and does not do any engineering at Tesla.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by JoshCole on Saturday September 29, 2018 @02:05PM (#18101818)
He posted a source. You are a liar.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by mhermher on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:14PM (#18090260)
You just said that Musk memorized several textbooks... Idk what kind of source can bail you out of that one. Probably discredits the source if anything.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by anon_spx on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:19PM (#18090492)
I work for the guy, and I don't think anyone who has worked closely with him would believe that SpaceX or Tesla would be anywhere near what they are without him. He is an extraordinary leader who is deeply involved with all of the engineering decisions that happen at both companies. You'd be very surprised at how much impact he has on fairly low level decisions.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by hef19898 on Friday September 28, 2018 @04:55AM (#18091913)
There is a phase in every company when that is a crucial thing to have, the earlier in a companies life cycle the more important it is. And then comes the point where such deep involvement of the CEO / founder is less important and even turns into a liability at one point.

At least for Tesla, I have the impression that this is, indeed, becoming a liability at the moment.

When the very top has a measurable impact on low level discisions it is a) eating up attention from the top level b) delaying even small decisions waiting for top level involvement and c) carrying the risk of bad decisions as the top level is, by definition, missing the detailed knowledge necessary for the majority of low level decisions. Not even to speak what that does to innovation and the flow of ideas and corporate culture in the long run.

Other famous examples of where this can end are VW and, at a smaller seriousness level, Bezo's deep involvement with the Fire phone.

Automotive mass production is, from a certain perspective, more complex than launching stuff to space. It is also a very well understood domain, first and foremost from established car manufacturers. So it would have made sense to also memorize some books covering that topic and than getting experts onboard. It doesn't help that an EV is less complex to build compared to traditional cars, so in that regard traditional manufacturers actually do have an advantage. I don't remember when he said it exactly (I think around the time Tesla bought this German manufacturing equipment supplier), but Musk stating that he also wants to revolutionize the way cars are manufactured. Why would you do that when your primary goal, one you are on very good track to accomplish, is revolutionizing mobility?

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by gammateam on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:19PM (#18090002)
The company won't be fine because it'll be trading at $20 per share.

(Yes, $20 is hyperbole, now read the rest)

The real issue will be the 2019 bondholder covenants. Tesla won't have the cash to pay them, Tesla won't have the buying interest to absorb dilution, and Tesla will still need money.

Basically with a lower and lower share price Tesla has fewer and fewer ways to service its debt and do further fundraising. They can, it just won't be good for shareholders. This is called a death spiral.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/deathspiral.asp

For a healthy company, a low share price has nothing to do with anything. For example, Tesla without debt and positive revenues would be a healthy company at $20 per share, it would even be undervalued and hurray you are the only person that noticed! But thats not the case for Tesla. Tesla is not a healthy company. And its going to become toxic.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by sergiosgc on Friday September 28, 2018 @06:31AM (#18092280)
Tesla's debt servicing cost 600 million yearly (Bill Cunningham estimates). It is producing Model 3s at a pace of 4k weekly (according to Bloomberg). Each represents 15kUSD in gross profit (according to Munro). It takes ten weeks to service the yearly debt using current Model 3 sales.

If these numbers are right, once Tesla proved to be able to produce Model 3s, it became financially stable. It will easily be able to roll-over bonds.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by jsight on Friday September 28, 2018 @09:15AM (#18093026)
> Each represents 15kUSD in gross profit (according to Munro).

I was with you on every part but this. It is better to use the company's SEC filings than the Munro report for estimating cash flow per vehicle.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by sergiosgc on Friday September 28, 2018 @09:42AM (#18093252)
Good point. It's a different number, but a relevant datapoint anyhow. The last filing shows a gross profit margin of 15%.

It's a different number because it includes cost of the sale infrastructure. Unfortunately, it's for the quarter ending in June, so the volume of model 3 is still not very relevant against the other models.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by hef19898 on Friday September 28, 2018 @04:56AM (#18091919)
Seems to be the underlying reasoning of a lot of short sellers, doesn't it?
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by wbl on Friday September 28, 2018 @05:35AM (#18092080)
Then the bondowners end up restructuring and owning a valuable company.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by vinceguidry on Friday September 28, 2018 @09:23AM (#18093075)
Tesla would almost assuredly not be a fraction as valuable with bondholders running it as they would with Musk at the helm. The company's fortunes are inextricably bound up with the founder. The only thing the bondholders are likely to do with the business if they find themselves owning it outright is liquidate. A fact that is quite likely being taken into account in the current market brinksmanship imbroglio.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by AcerbicZero on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:07PM (#18089227)
My take from the Joe Rogan interview was that Elon is preoccupied/passionate when it comes to technology and engineering. Not pointing out that he obviously has a great team doesn't seem like much of an oversight to me. He didn't attempt to hide behind a facade, playing the super-CEO role, full of faux self deprecation and verbal gold stars for his team.

Perhaps I'm a little more generous in my interpretation of the interview, but to me, he just seemed like an awkward guy, who wanted to work on engineering cool stuff.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by hawkice on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:34AM (#18091111)
I suppose the unfortunate thing is, that isn't his role. He can still do engineering work when he has the time, but me, the SEC, and most other humans understand the CEO of a public company has actual responsibility towards operations. Part of that means, he might not being doing his job great if he works his employees 90 hours a week and pretends they don't exist when he wants to brag on the radio. Being kind and generous with well deserved praise costs nothing and actually benefits both the company and the humans making the company work.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by iamcreasy on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:08PM (#18089670)
> but not once did he say, "Well I have an amazing team of engineers" and credit all the thousands of people in his organizations that actually do the work.

He says it all-the-time. And sometimes without any prompt.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by greedo on Friday September 28, 2018 @08:56AM (#18092913)
Musk told Stanton that he had "one of the world's best engineering teams who normally design spaceships and spacesuits working on this thing 24 hours a day."[1]

[1]https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-reveals-email-thre...

That took all of 1 minute on Google...

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by api on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:22PM (#18090765)
If Musk never happened rockets would still be expendable, the US would still lack a Shuttle replacement, and EVs would be rare or nonexistent. We would still be talking about how personal mobility is doomed when oil is depleted, if not all of modern civilization.

Prove me wrong. Who else was doing this stuff before SpaceX and Tesla? On space launch you had nothing serious except the SLS which is 70s tech. On EVs you had a few boutique and niche vehicles but nothing pushing to break into any mass market. I doubt conventional car companies would ever have done it without a law to force them or monster incentives since most of that industry is full of ICE heads who hate EVs. They are now, but that's because of Tesla. I'm worried that if Tesla fails all these other EV projects will be scaled back since the ICE and oil crowd will leap on it to push an EVs have failed narrative.

Elon seems to have fucked up with this one, but I dont think it diminishes what he has accomplished.

Normally the only way to smash a mediocre Nash equilibrium is with the power of government-- either big government spending or legislation (regulation, anti trust, etc). It's normally the only hammer big enough. I have a lot of respect for anyone in the private sector who is able to pull it off. Musk and the teams he assembled broke two. That's just insane. Hell maybe it is literally insane. Maybe he's nuts.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by hef19898 on Friday September 28, 2018 @01:06AM (#18091218)
A agree wizh you on the Tesla part, there Musk really forced very positive development. One could argue of course if that development wouldn't have taken place as well without Tesla. But even then it is clear that Musk / Tesla moved things along a lot faster.

SpaceX is an incredible achievement. The reusable rockets are a point I really need to dig deeper into, especially the financial aspects of it. Because there a pretty convincing argument is that peivate SpaceX launches are subsidized by government launches. I really have to go hunting for some numbers there more I think about it. And even then, building competitive rockets, not just one, in a private endevour is incredible.

I'm just wondering if Musk is not getting to much credit and hype. Not that he would need it, even the smallest common ground regarding Musk's achievements is more than enough for a lifetime. Unless he throwing all of it away over some paranoid obsession about short sellers and a loose Twitter finger...

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by api on Friday September 28, 2018 @09:31AM (#18093145)
I think Musk sometimes does get too much credit, but the opposite -- that he deserves none and is a fraud -- is equally ridiculous.

Gwynne Shotwell deserves a lot of credit for leading SpaceX in its day-to-day operations. Without her I doubt it would be working as well. Everyone else on these teams also deserves a great deal of credit. They are teams, of course.

On SpaceX being government funded -- yes, that's true to an extent, though they have made a lot of money off private satellite launches too. The fact is that the entire aerospace industry has been deeply embedded with the military and other government agencies since its inception. It's a very heavily subsidized and regulated industry.

But team building and capital raising is a skill, and Musk seems good at it -- at least at the beginning. He's great at getting things off the ground (pun intended?) and breaking through barriers of technological learned helplessness. I do get the sense though that he's less of an effective leader as things get more established. Tesla's problems are too boring for him at this point.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by dingaling on Friday September 28, 2018 @01:07AM (#18091226)
> but nothing pushing to break into any mass market.

Nissan Leaf 2010

Tesla Model S 2012

Renault Zoe 2013

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by King-Aaron on Friday September 28, 2018 @03:42AM (#18091659)
> Tesla Roadster 2008
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by hef19898 on Friday September 28, 2018 @09:47AM (#18093282)
Nissan Altran EV, sold in California and fleet-tested, 1998. Nissan Garbage Collecting Truck, mainly sold to the Yokohama city government, 1988. Just saying.

https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/ZEROEMISSION/HISTORY/

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by King-Aaron on Monday October 01, 2018 @10:54PM (#18118499)
Just to continue this thread, because it's interesting...

Walter C. Bersey's Hummingbird - 1897

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by api on Friday September 28, 2018 @06:05PM (#18097434)
Those were "compliance cars," not attempts to seriously invade the mass market with an EV.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by yzh on Friday September 28, 2018 @04:48AM (#18091887)
Well, I actually agree with you. But John Carmack's armadillo aerospace was founded 2 years before SpaceX.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by qaq on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:11PM (#18088721)
Well let's just put it this way after trying out new MBP I just bought my first non Apple notebook since 2006. I also have 0 intention of buying any iPhone models with notch. On space X a son of a friend who actually works at Space X as eng. mentioned that Musk gets pretty involved on eng. side of things (obviously pretty anecdotal evidence). I also seen many times Musk praising a team at Space X and Tesla so drawing far reaching conclusion from a single interview of a dude who is obviously under a ton of pressure and is physically and mentally exhausted is a bit strange.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by emodendroket on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:16PM (#18089716)
I said it before, but: ever read War and Peace? I think you could easily adapt Tolstoy's thesis to business: executives are mostly there to ratify the decisions their subordinates made on the spot. Tolstoy stakes out the most extreme position, but I think we could at least say executive control is more attenuated than executives would like to believe.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by the_rosentotter on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:16PM (#18088766)
> I don't doubt he's capable of doing that with his background

Which background is that? He has an undergraduate degree in economics and a bachelor's degree in physics.

I respect the guy but he clearly puts a lot into managing his image. As a relevant example, he used to claim to have been in the Ph.D. program at Stanford, but had to retract that (I leave it as an exercise to the reader to find that on Google).

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by paulsutter on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:14PM (#18089704)
I met Elon just after he raised $3M for Zip2[1]. He had moved to Palo Alto to enroll at Stanford, but then got sidetracked into Zip2 (later sold for $300M+). The company was about 8 people in one small room at the time.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip2

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by pbhjpbhj on Friday September 28, 2018 @06:59AM (#18092412)
>undergraduate degree in economics and a bachelor's degree in physics.

I'm in the UK my understanding is a bachelor's is a synonym for an undergraduate degree; so why did you use the different terms here?

Ah, I think I see it: you copied from Wikipedia; wherein it says he did a bachelors degree in Economics (BA?) and a further bachelors in physics (BS/BSc) whilst he was a graduate. Two undergraduate degrees.

Other sources suggest he did the degrees coterminously:

>"Musk graduated from UPenn in 1994, with double bachelor degrees in Physics (from the College of Arts and Sciences) and Economics (from the Wharton School)." (http://studyadvantage.co/elon-musk-education-study/)

That sources says he had 2 days in a PhD program.

https://www.wharton.upenn.edu/academic-programs/ suggests he did what they call a "dual degree". Making Wikipedia wrong, he didn't "stay" for his second degree he did the two together.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by quenstionsasked on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:48PM (#18089085)
I'm very curious about the Stanford thing. Do you mean that he was never admitted? Or simply that he never officially enrolled?

I tried my hand at googling this but found nothing but re-hashes of the same story of how he left after two days.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by snake117 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:47PM (#18089546)
I remember reading in Elon Musk: Tesla, SpaceX, and the Quest for a Fantastic Future something that Elon had been formally admitted to the PhD program at Stanford, but dropped out after three days. Vance contacted the Registrar's Office (or the graduate department itself?, I cannot remember) and received the confirmation that he was admitted.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by iamcreasy on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:35PM (#18089813)
He wanted to work on super capacitors in his PhD, but he realized that somebody would work on it anyways, and it's better for him to work on Paypal.

Watch the video of Sal Khan(fron Khan Academy) interviewing Elon musk.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by JoshCole on Friday September 28, 2018 @03:27PM (#18096307)
Mostly right :). He actually thought it better to be involved in creating an internet company. This led to the founding of Zip2 (a kind of precursor to Yelp whose pivots ended up trying to help newspapers get online). The money from that led to the founding of X (think, transaction), which later took over and ultimately merged with its competitor, PayPal.

I second the recommendation of watching the interview. There is way too much misinformation surrounding Tesla and Elon Musk.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by iamcreasy on Friday September 28, 2018 @04:28PM (#18096769)
Yes, I recall him saying something similar. I was writing from my memory.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by jkqwzsoo on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:04PM (#18089200)
I couldn't find anything either.

My guess would be that you aren't technically in the PhD program until you've passed your qualifying exam. Until that point, you're a graduate student but not a PhD student. After you pass your preliminary exam, you're a PhD/Doctoral candidate.

Also, it's a moot point. There are no bragging rights to be found in simply being admitted to a PhD program. Plenty of very intelligent people fail to complete a PhD program (usually, IME, because of personality issues/conflict with the advisor (sadly extremely common), inflexibility of the advisor and/or department, or personal reasons (economic, social, health)).

(to be clear, Musk didn't brag that he was admitted to Stanford - he suggested that he felt dropping out was more useful than continuing. His fans often hold up being admitted to a PhD program as evidence of his engineering background)

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by chriskanan on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:37PM (#18089824)
In the USA, this is how it typically works. People who are enrolled in PhD programs are called "PhD students." Once they pass their advancement to candidacy exam, they are called "PhD Candidates." In both cases, they are enrolled in a PhD program. Typically people are accepted directly to PhD programs and they are not just admitted as generic graduate students.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by mellow-lake-day on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:57PM (#18090645)
The biography of Elon Musk by Ashlee Vance talks about this. Which I recommend everybody read. I don't remember the details but I think he was admitted but not enrolled. He ended up not going because he thought pursuing an internet company in Silicon Valley was more valuable than research work at the time.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by jiveturkey on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:10PM (#18088714)
> Are Apple products different now that Jobs are gone?

The better question would be, would Apple products be what they are today, without Jobs.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by headgasket on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:28AM (#18091080)
The real question is what Apple products do not exist because Steve is not around anymore.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by Symmetry on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:13PM (#18089697)
Well, to quote Mueller:

>It’s really— it’s quite a trip, working for Elon. It’s different every day [laughter] because it all depends on what mood he’s in [laughter] — they think he’s joking> You know, he’s been in a great mood lately; we’ve been very successful, and Tesla’s been doing quite well. So it’s been good recently. Um, he still; he’s still extremely demanding. One thing I tell people often is that— I’ve seen this happen quite a few times in the fifteen years I’ve worked for him. We’ll have, you know, a group of people sitting in a room, making a key decision. And everybody in that room will say, you know, basically, “We need to turn left,” and Elon will say “No, we’re gonna turn right.” You know, to put it in a metaphor. And that’s how he thinks. He’s like, “You guys are taking the easy way out; we need to take the hard way.”

>And, uh, I’ve seen that hurt us before, I’ve seen that fail, but I’ve also seen— where nobody thought it would work— it was the right decision. It was the harder way to do it, but in the end, it was the right thing. One of the things that we did with the Merlin 1D was; he kept complaining— I talked earlier about how expensive the engine was. [inaudible] [I said,] “[the] only way is to get rid of all these valves. Because that’s what’s really driving the complexity and cost.” And how can you do that? And I said, “Well, on smaller engines, we’d go face-shutoff, but nobody’s done it on a really large engine. It’ll be really difficult.” And he said, “We need to do face-shutoff. Explain how that works?” So I drew it up, did some, you know, sketches, and said “here’s what we’d do,” and he said “That’s what we need to do.” And I advised him against it; I said it’s going to be too hard to do, and it’s not going to save that much. But he made the decision that we were going to do face-shutoff.

>So we went and developed that engine; and it was hard. We blew up a lot of hardware. And we tried probably tried a hundred different combinations to make it work; but we made it work. I still have the original sketch I did; I think it was— what was it, Christmas 2011, when I did that sketch? And it’s changed quite a bit from that original sketch, but it was pretty scary for me, knowing how that hardware worked, but by going face-shutoff, we got rid of the main valves, we got rid of the sequencing computer; basically, you spin the pumps and pressure comes up, the pressure opens the main injector, lets the oxygen go first, and then the fuel comes in. So all you gotta time is the ignitor fluid. So if you have the ignitor fluid going, it’ll light, and it’s not going to hard start. That got rid of the problem we had where you have two valves; the oxygen valve and the fuel valve. The oxygen valve is very cold and very stiff; it doesn’t want to move. And it’s the one you want open first. If you relieve the fuel, it’s what’s called a hard start. In fact, we have an old saying that says, “[inaudible][When you start a rocket engine, a thousand things could happen, and only one of those is good]“, and by having sequencing correctly, you can get rid of about 900 of those bad things, we made these engine very reliable, got rid of a lot of mass, and got rid of a lot of costs. And it was the right thing to do.

>And now we have the lowest-cost, most reliable engines in the world. And it was basically because of that decision, to go to do that. So that’s one of the examples of Elon just really pushing— he always says we need to push to the limits of physics.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by kamaal on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:39PM (#18090843)
Interesting interview. Where can we read the full version of this?
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by Symmetry on Friday September 28, 2018 @09:16AM (#18093036)
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by _Microft on Friday September 28, 2018 @02:05AM (#18091381)
The posting you replied to reminded me of the following Skype interview. It might or might not be it but it's interesting anyways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH9uf7p4jb0

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by ubernostrum on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:37PM (#18089460)
I really hate this idea of the grand visionary.

Which is amusing in the case of Musk. As I've said over and over, his approach is to find an industry where most or all of the hard, expensive fundamental R&D has already been done (and paid for) by someone else, and then start a company to incrementally improve it and promise vast cost reductions from economies of scale.

That's what SpaceX is. That's what Tesla is. There's not really staggering heart-breaking Copernican-revolution work being done at either company. They're just applying incremental improvement and economies of scale to problems where the hard fundamental work was already done. The idea that it requires some special sort of unbelievable genius to come up with that plan, or that it's impossible to do without this specific (alleged) genius, is baffling to me.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by dnautics on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:30PM (#18089794)
I think also he's applying many forms of incremental improvement all at once, and also in a field where the other players are stultified.

To some degree, you could say the same criticisms about Linus Torvalds (or, say, Rob Pike).

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by api on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:07PM (#18090232)
He does what any good businessman would do. He looks for money on the table. In this case its areas where research has been done but it hasn't been operationalized.

That being said I dont mean to minimize what Musk or the teams he has assembled have done. The first 90% of the work toward a new innovation is 90% of the work, then the last 10% is 90% of the work.

SpaceX basically finished the Delta Clipper project.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by mellow-lake-day on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:59PM (#18090654)
A businessman who actually wants to make money wouldn't start a rocket company. The return on rocket companies is nil.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by katmai on Friday September 28, 2018 @09:21AM (#18093064)
If it's that easy why didn't you do it then? We should have plenty of competitors to SpaceX and Tesla with loads of reusable rockets and amazing self driving cars RIGHT NOW if everything seems so trivial in your opinion. Any dumbass can do it, including you! Time to get dirty and stack up on those millions of $ since things are so easy to pull off.

That's why Elon sleeps under the desk and works 18 hours a day because it's all very very easy.

I almost forgot how easy it was to sit on the sideline and critique someone else's work :) It's cute.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by ubernostrum on Friday September 28, 2018 @08:23PM (#18098022)
There's a difference between:

"This is not the revolutionary act of genius people portray it as"

and

"This is so trivially easy anyone could do it"

Tesla and SpaceX are trying to do things that have potential utility. Things which will advance the state of their respective arts even if they fail. There is no shame in "merely" doing that! There's also no need to inflate it into something it isn't.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by resu_nimda on Friday September 28, 2018 @03:16AM (#18091574)
What is baffling to me is the length that some HN commenters will go to to tear down people like Elon and Steve Jobs.

Maybe you don't like him, maybe you don't like how much attention and praise he gets. But to be so dismissive of what those companies have accomplished with him at the helm, to me is just unwarranted bitter negativity.

In your mind, what companies are doing staggering heart-breaking Copernican-revolution work? What bar must be reached to not be "just applying incremental improvement and economies of scale?" Pretty bleak outlook if pushing the bleeding edge of rocket technology forward is humdrum small potatoes.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by ubernostrum on Friday September 28, 2018 @05:20AM (#18092027)
the length that some HN commenters will go to to tear down people like Elon

I suppose if you read literally anything other than absolutely fawning worship of Elon Musk as history's most titanic genius as a "tear down", I could see that.

But... it is absolutely true that his business model is incremental improvements + economies of scale. Tesla and SpaceX aren't in the business of inventing fundamentally new things. They're in the business of making improvements to already-invented things, and mass-producing them to try to bring costs down. This is only a troubling thing to read if you're deeply invested in his cult of personality.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by resu_nimda on Friday September 28, 2018 @01:34PM (#18095252)
We're clearly talking past each other and we may have to agree to disagree. You didn't address my question at all, just restated your comment and implied that I'm a fanboy if I disagree.

"Absolutely fawning worship" is unnecessary hyperbole, there is a vast amount of middle ground between that and your position. But I suppose if you can't make a reasoned argument, you have to resort to that (and we're off to the ad hominem races!).

"Most titanic genius" is more telling hyperbole, reiterated from your first post apropos of nothing. I didn't say anything about him or his genius, but you continue to mock and, yes, tear down.

When you say "Tesla is just [this]. SpaceX is just [that]," that's a tear down. You're reducing and diminishing companies that have undoubtedly made real impact, but why? Forget about Elon the Magnificent for a second, I would guess that you have similar things to say about Google, Apple, and the rest.

So I ask again, what company is doing things worthy of your respect? You're very good at reducing big things to nothing, but can you prop anything up? Can you support something? Maybe you're afraid to, because you know I can reduce and diminish it. That's easy, anyone can do it. But there's nothing interesting about it, there's no value, all it does is reveal insecurity.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by ubernostrum on Friday September 28, 2018 @08:27PM (#18098033)
Would you agree that SpaceX and Tesla are not inventing any fundamentally new technology? That they are engaged in evolutionary, rather than revolutionary, work?

One can say "this is not a revolutionary thing" without simultaneously saying "this is utterly worthless". Avoiding the hero worship and the personality cult does not require throwing out any idea of useful things coming from SpaceX or Tesla.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by emptyfile on Friday September 28, 2018 @04:13AM (#18091754)
>Pretty bleak outlook if pushing the bleeding edge of rocket technology forward is humdrum small potatoes.

Yes, the world's outlook is pretty bleak.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by resu_nimda on Friday September 28, 2018 @04:49PM (#18096951)
Well I genuinely hope you find something that gives you enough joy to change your perspective.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by maxxxxx on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:13PM (#18088742)
Totally agree. He makes it sound like he is the guy who figures out all that stuff in his basement. It's hard to imagine that a CEO of two companies that size has the time to do any real engineering. He seems more the type who has good memory and can repeat what the engineered are telling him. My VP is like that. He immediately comprehends and remembers what you tell him but he is not doing any development work.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by reanimated on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:34PM (#18089436)
So you want to say if you can understand, can discuss with engineer leeds, can make a decision and accept or decline a solutions to the problem which your company is making, you're not involved in the development work?
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by maxxxxx on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:46PM (#18089535)
Not in the sense that he is doing active development work.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by erikpukinskis on Friday September 28, 2018 @11:08PM (#18098505)
Would you call it passive?

You still need to understand all the details. You just didn’t necessarily need to do the grinding on iterations, schematics, math, etc.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by throwaway0255 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:41PM (#18090117)
> I really hate this idea of the grand visionary. ... I listened to a bit of his Joe Regan interview and when Regan asked him how he has the time to do all of the things he does, there are smoke jokes about him being an alien, but not once did he say, "Well I have an amazing team of engineers" and credit all the thousands of people in his organizations that actually do the work.

I think Elon's active perpetuation of the myth is kind of a red herring.

Promoting Elon Musk as a grand visionary is how Tesla will maximize its brand value, and contribute to a self-sustaining lore around their founder 50 years from now. It's the same story for Apple and Steve Jobs, and thousands of other companies (tech and otherwise).

People aren't capable of idolizing 200 mechanical engineers. They are very capable of idolizing a single visionary. A story with 200 protagonists would be far less compelling, which is why most stories only have 1. If you want to be as competitive as possible, and you have a leader capable of exploiting that aspect of human nature, then that's what your company should do.

Permitting and perpetuating this kind of myth-making is practically part of Elon's fiduciary duty to his shareholders at this point. You can't fault him for doing it, because he has to.

I think what's really at issue is the aspect of human nature that it's exploiting.

I think it's closely tied to hierarchy and pecking order instincts observed in all mammals. We always need to be identifying and reacting to an alpha, and using that to inform our choices and behaviors so we can stay competitive on a biological level. The same instinct might also be what causes people to immediately perceive this as an issue of Elon's individual behavior, and makes them feel so strongly about it.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by pvelagal on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:07PM (#18090228)
I have to completely disagree with you on Elon not giving credit to others. If you have closely followed Elon Musk, ( please check his videos on youtube) even during unveiling Tesla’s new models you will find irrefutable evidence on how he credits his other team members , especially reiterating that people just think its just him but there are many others behind him who do the amazing stuff.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by GreeniFi on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:36PM (#18090333)
Insightful post. Musk has successfully built a cult around his personal brand,for the specific reason of super-charging his ability to raise capital. A poster above provides news coverage about him memorizing rocket science books. I suspect this was part of a well-orchestrated PR campaign and unlikely. I find it difficult to believe that anyone could or want to do this, let alone achieve it. Particular when that person later makes a schoolboy error exposing himself to fraud which could result in him going to prison, presumably.

That said, and being an entrepreneur and having spent time in negotiations with entrepreneurs, when people start talking about money, everyone hears what they want to hear regardless of what is said. Which is why lawyers can charge what they do. And why - in this - Musk looked a bit inexperienced IMHO.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by cookiecaper on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:57PM (#18090396)
Yes. Elon is not naive and no one thinks that Joe Rogan is just some secret thing that nobody watches. He went on Rogan with the intention to spread a specific message.

Practically the entire value of Musk projects is based on the myth that Elon is a mystical being bringing advanced technology to humanity. Going on Rogan and doing something to harm that belief, like diverting all credit to his "amazing team of engineers", would be far more damaging than anything else he's done.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by GW150914 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:51PM (#18090163)
Permitting and perpetuating this kind of myth-making is practically part of Elon's fiduciary duty to his shareholders at this point. You can't fault him for doing it, because he has to.

Plus he clearly lives for it, and when anyone makes even reasonable points against him, he loses his mind on a Twitter. That is after all what happened with “pedo guy” re the Thai cave rescue. Musk made an ass of himself by trying to inject himself into a potential tragedy for some PR and a man who actually helped to save the day called him on it.

I’m also not sure that it would be hard to idolize a group, people manage it for sports teams. Maybe if Musk put the effort he spends into grooming his ego into promoting his team he wouldn’t need to be the center of a cult of e-sychophants.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by kamaal on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:26PM (#18090782)
>>A good friend of mine who is a mechanical engineer despises Musk.

A lot of people despise Musk.

Its because the society in general hates these kind of successful non-conformist. No one likes to see a hugely successful anti-pattern to their whole life.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by wilsonnb3 on Saturday September 29, 2018 @08:27AM (#18099975)
> Its because the society in general hates these kind of successful non-conformist. No one likes to see a hugely successful anti-pattern to their whole life.

This is just wrong. There are plenty of reasons to dislike Musk that have nothing to do with him being a "successful noncomforist", whatever that means.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by andrepd on Friday September 28, 2018 @09:23AM (#18093079)
I'm in the same camp. I'm going to be happy if at the end of this we've managed to get a better (cleaner, safer, more reliable, cheaper) car or a better rocket or whatever, but I don't buy the whole "rocket jesus" worshipping, like I don't buy the whole guru worshipping in startup culture in general.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by erikpukinskis on Friday September 28, 2018 @10:42PM (#18098417)
I don’t understand what’s so unusual that there would be Jesuses walking around. Like a billion people are trying to imitate Jesus. Also we have the benefit of centuries of reflection in his teachings.

I would expect there to be dozens of Jesuses. Rocket Jesus. Pizza Jesus. Star Wars Jesus. Etc.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by mlazos on Friday September 28, 2018 @03:01AM (#18091528)
I think that Apple products have gotten noticeably buggier since Jobs has gone, I honestly think the horror of getting a 3am call from him about your feature was a legitimate fear engineers had at Apple and drove quality up. Not advocating for that work environment but I definitely think it had an effect.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by sizzle on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:57PM (#18090392)
Are Apple products different now that Jobs are gone?

https://www.fastcompany.com/3053406/how-apple-is-giving-desi...

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by saiya-jin on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:15PM (#18088761)
Sour comment for whatever reason... It's actually pretty simple - imagine the world that is and probably will be with him, and then one without him.

We underdogs hate to be not credited for the hard work we do, but his positive impact on mankind as a whole is quite substantial, and as time goes by it will be only magnified. Hard to argue with this. SpaceX and Tesla are really a bit more than just a sum of all the engineers (and other folks) involved.

If you like to pick negative things on people, then there are no heroes, there are no ideals to look up to. Every single great person in history had a dark side, like it or not. I guess that's part of what makes us humans.

Personally, I like him. With all the warts, emotions and whatnot. Results matter, rest are details for pub discussion after 5th beer. World generally thinks similarly on this topic.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by bilbo0s on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:24PM (#18088844)
The world with him, is a whole lot like the world without him though.

I mean, I did the thought experiment, and I honestly don't see many things that would be different?

Are you arguing that without Musk, we wouldn't have commercial space companies, or electric cars? If so, I find that a bit difficult to believe.

The part of your comment about no one being a hero is correct. None of us are any better than anyone else, that's for sure. (It's the main reason I try never to point fingers in life actually.) But the idea that we would be worse off without Musk is just a bridge too far.

Even a world absent Steve Jobs, would have created PCs and smart phones. And, with respect to impact, Musk is no Steve Jobs.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by Roritharr on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:49PM (#18089091)
I, living in Germany and having worked with and for our car companies, am completely convinced that without him we wouldn't have the electric shift we're seeing right now. We'd have another two decades of half hearted attempts at all kinds of technologies, especially bio fuels but no real progress. Tesla changed the game and I can only imagine it's the same with SpaceX.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by JoshCole on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:51PM (#18090617)
Thank God for that. I don't mean anything bad about Germany when I say that. It's just that I don't think people realize how important it is to have good incentives. Getting rich on the basis of successfully electrifying the world is a very good incentive to have. Legacy automakers have to fight their own incentives. As a consequence, they can't quite manage to make the full turn. Regulation has helped curb this a little, but Elon Musk founded the company without the corrupted incentives. Their market capitalization in the electrical energy sector is a direct consequence of this. Anyone who knows about climate science ought to be happy with his accomplishments.

There is a causal link between Elon Musk putting all his money into SpaceX and Tesla and their successes. This is true from the obvious way (they were literally close to death with his last infusion), but its a truth that is more than superficial.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by blkhawk on Friday September 28, 2018 @02:33AM (#18091442)
And at least 15 Years of "clean diesel" marketing.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by DennisP on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:00PM (#18089171)
Tesla completely changed the public perception of electric cars, from slow eco-friendly compacts to high-performance sports cars. Without Tesla I doubt that Mercedes would be spending $12 billion on electric cars, or Porsche would be releasing an electric car next year with a 0-60 time of 3.5 seconds and a nationwide fast charging network in the U.S. Tesla proved that it's possible and that there's demand for it.

SpaceX significantly lowered launch costs even before achieving reusability, and with reusability is changing the game completely. However, Jeff Bezos isn't that far behind with Blue Origin, and probably wasn't inspired by SpaceX; he started a long time ago and was a space nut from an early age. Still, it's better to have two great companies with cheap reusable rockets, rather than just one, and the two companies have somewhat different long-term goals.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by vital_sol on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:41PM (#18089839)
Well, Jeff Bezos with Blue Origin is so far behind that they haven't launched anything to the Low Earth Orbit yet, and as far as I know they don't have plans to launch to LEO for the next few years. So wrg to reusable launch vehicles, so far SpaceX is the only game in town. OTOH, Jeff Bezos has more money and can speed things up if he wants.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by DennisP on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:05PM (#18089942)
Sure, I'm just saying that without Musk we'd still get reusable launch, just a few years later. Blue Origin is definitely behind but they've been focusing on advanced engines, and just licensed one to ULA, which is flying it in 2020. And of course BO is planning to fly suborbital passengers next year. Suborbital is way easier the LEO, but flying passengers at all is something SpaceX hasn't gotten to yet.

I'm a huge SpaceX fan and until recently I kinda scoffed at Blue Origin, but after seeing more about it I was more impressed. (On the other hand, the New Glenn is only first-stage reusable, so they might need to get that flying well before the BFR is ready.)

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by hef19898 on Friday September 28, 2018 @01:13AM (#18091241)
SpaceX is the only serious private company. And without government launches they would have a hard time as well. In the de-facto public sector you have the Russians, Ariane, the Chinese, the Indians... It's not that there wouldn't be anything in space without SpaceX. The thing I love about SpaceX is how they showed what can be done without the over abundance of bureaucracy you see elsewhere. Not that programs like Ariane would have learned the smallest bit from it.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by DennisP on Friday September 28, 2018 @07:32AM (#18092543)
What's really different about SpaceX is the cost of launch. Governments and their contractors are happy to launch your stuff into space for thousands of dollars per pound, but nobody was putting significant work into reusable rockets. Just a reusable first stage drops the cost by about 80%, and the BFR is supposed to take the cost down to about $50/lb once it's flying at high volume. That completely changes what we're able to do in space.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by hef19898 on Friday September 28, 2018 @09:26AM (#18093102)
Refcently I stumbled over an article regarding SpaceX cost structure raising the theory that commercial launches are subsidized by government launches. Also that reusing stages is not such a relevant cost driver. I simply don't know enough about rocket technology and costs to actually judge the validity of these points, but they seemd plausible. As this point is coming up regularly I really have to take a deper look SpaceX costs and launch costs in general.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by DennisP on Friday September 28, 2018 @11:01AM (#18093906)
There's a reason we don't throw away a 747 after one flight.

Fuel is only a couple percent of the cost of a rocket launch. Rockets are expensive, and on the Falcon 9 the first stage is 80% of the cost of the rocket.

In the early days of SpaceX I saw claims that expendables were more economical because you could build them cheaper, but then SpaceX went and build reusable rockets that are also cheap; their rockets cost less than competitors even without reuse.

They're getting government business because they charge the government less than their competitors charge. The subsidy argument doesn't make sense unless it's only the commercial launches that are cheap.

There are a lot of vested interests in this industry that are strongly incentivized to say reusable rockets are no big deal. I think they'll continue to say that until the BFR flies and SpaceX drops their rates to levels far below what disposables could ever achieve.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by hef19898 on Friday September 28, 2018 @11:29AM (#18094182)
Well, one point made in the article I mentioned above was that thermal stress limits the life time of a reusable rocket. Plus the lost payload as you need fuel to land the rocket again. Also, and at least that part I can confirm, a missile is tube is not a lot more than a aluminium tube. So, there is my home work for the weekend: rocket science and LEO launch economics!
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by DennisP on Friday September 28, 2018 @11:59AM (#18094453)
There's also the rocket engine, which is a lot more than a tube. Disposables throw that away too. You can just look at the cost of the rocket to see how much expensive stuff is getting thrown away.

SpaceX does still use the Falcon 9 as a disposable for extra-heavy payloads. That doesn't mean you have to throw your rocket away for all payloads, and the capacity difference isn't dramatic. And there won't be that many payloads too big for the BFR in reusable mode.

It's true that the rocket wears out eventually. SpaceX is aiming for about ten reuses initially, thus lowering hardware costs by 90%. They hope to do much better than that later.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by hef19898 on Friday September 28, 2018 @01:54PM (#18095443)
We agree on the hardware cost side. The missing step now is to compare these saved hardware costs against the lost payload and the revenue value of that payload. Averages will be fine I think.

Just looking at the hardware side without opportunity cost aonewhat misses the point. A really thorough cost analysis would need to factor in the impact on reliability, the risk of failed launches due to reused rocket stages. I assume these numbers are impossible to come by.

One other data point would be, if that's the case, how much premium SpaceX is asking for the use of virgin rockets as compared to reused ones. This would allow a rough estimation of the increase risk for failure and other costs. Again, I don't expect these numbers to be available.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by dasmoth on Friday September 28, 2018 @02:45AM (#18091482)
Jeff Bezos has more money and can speed things up if he wants.

The first part is obviously true. The latter, I’m not so sure —- Blue’s budget has increased dramatically over the past few years, but New Glenn flights remain rare, and New Shepard remains well in the future.

It’s interesting to ponder where Blue would have gone if SpaceX (which was founded later) hadn’t happened. I think there’s a very real chance they’d still be thrashing, talking up bits and pieces of technology but without any complete vehicles (even of New Glenn size).

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by tigershark on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:58PM (#18089154)
As far as I remember he was laughed at for just thinking to build reusable rockets or to sell electric cars. Either I or you have very serious memory problems. But I’m pretty confident that I can link several sources to corroborate my recalling of the events, can you do the same? If you can prove that the people that were laughing at him would have brought the electric car mainstream and would have invented reusable rockets without him than you are right. I’m eagerly waiting for your ironclad proof.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by saiya-jin on Friday September 28, 2018 @04:26AM (#18091809)
It's hard to not admire somebody who get all those laughs and delivered in very short time span. Not only that, we don't only have reusable rockets, we have freakin' vertical landing! Thought to be unrealistic by proper NASA engineers. For a very long time people didn't have that WOW experience for space technologies, and this one delivered.

Mankind needs people like him - with all ecological doom and gloom slowly unfolding, next mandatory frontier is clearly space. Also, disrupting entrenched monopolies/oligopolies that got just too comfortable milking people of their money for very minor improvements of their products.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by guiomie on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:43PM (#18090122)
I was thinking the same when I listened to Joe Rogan podcast. And the topic came up multiple times where he could have said he has a great team to support him. I was really disappointed in Musk.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by ramblerman on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:09AM (#18090997)
Of course he has an amazing team of engineers.

But if Mush hadn't been born, they would have never come together to create Tesla.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by dingaling on Friday September 28, 2018 @01:00AM (#18091207)
> they would have never come together to create Tesla.

They already did, since Tesla predates Mr Musk's involvement

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by datavirtue on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:47PM (#18089076)
The engineers created the iPhone and had to beg Jobs to fund the product launch. Well documented.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by repolfx on Friday September 28, 2018 @08:30AM (#18092781)
Really? Where can I read about this?

What I recall is that Jobs tasked Apple to create a phone and had a bake-off between the iPod guy (Tony something) and Federighi, and the iPod side of the firm created a device with a click wheel, Federighi's team created a device with a touch screen and Jobs made the call to go with the touch screen. It'd be weird if it went from that to Jobs having to be begged to launch it, especially as it was clearly awesome and Jobs himself had been so deeply involved in the design.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by ouid on Friday September 28, 2018 @01:48PM (#18095366)
>Are Apple products different now that Jobs are gone?

Air pods.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by stcredzero on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:06PM (#18088671)
Are Apple products different now that Jobs are gone?

Yes. Jobs as local despot acted as a curb to bad decisions. Jobs had a vision which acted as a countervailing force to keep Apple from being completely sucked into being a money grubbing luxury goods company.

the core people that make and design all their overpriced, planned obsolescence devices are still there, often uncredited, while everyone else likes to focus on the captain of a ship.

We know from the historical record that Jobs had quite good judgement, even in technical fields, and we know that he countermanded and convinced executives and managers to steer them in the right direction. I suspect that the Apple of today is descending into being just a money-grubbing luxury goods company.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by threeseed on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:19PM (#18088788)
This is just revisionist history and completely wrong.

Steve Jobs pretty much set Apple on the premium goods track when he returned. The iMac, iPod, iPad, iPhone were all developed under his watch and all were premium priced.

Apple has pushed the margins higher but that's only because the market can absorb it. Computing is more central to people's lives and they are willing to pay a premium for a good experience.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by stcredzero on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:32PM (#18088935)
This is just revisionist history and completely wrong.

Steve Jobs pretty much set Apple on the premium goods track when he returned

You are revising what I actually said, and about that you are completely wrong. I never denied that Jobs set Apple on the premium goods track. However, he was one of the major forces keeping it from devolving into being only a peddler of luxury goods.

Tech innovation does better with good margins, and good margins come easier for more upscale products. But doing that is better as an adjunct which increases your margins, and winds up empty as an end to itself.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by btown on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:47PM (#18090149)
People responding in this thread are failing to realize that there are two types of luxury goods (to obviously oversimplify): luxuries built on hype, and luxuries built on quality/craftsmanship. (Said craftsmanship can be innovative or traditional, but there's the sense of pride in the work that carries through in both situations.) One (though not all) of the nuances that the parent post evokes is that Jobs challenged the company to be more than just a hype machine.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by jonathankoren on Friday September 28, 2018 @02:38AM (#18091461)
I've heard the difference is between luxury goods, and premium goods. A luxury good is a swarovski crystal encrusted anything. It's only expensive because for some reason, people think glass should be expensive. A premium good costs more because it's actually better.

Of course, if you never use premium features, then it's a luxury good.

[dead]
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by stcredzero on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:56PM (#18089610)
Apple produces better products than google and microsoft, get over it.

It sounds like you're the one who needs to get over something.

For the record, I've been an iPhone user since the 2nd iPhone. I'm typing this on a Macbook Pro, and I bought the 1st unibody Macbook. I've developed iPhone apps and I've been an Apple user since 1980.

Yes, Apple produces better products for now. However, as the years pass, those products might remain recognizably luxury, but become increasingly irrelevant, like a watch fob. Apple now is to Apple in the several years before Steve Jobs died as Pixar now is to Pixar in the days when they came out with Toy Story and Up.

The market decided. Here's the thing. It never stops deciding.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by threeseed on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:01PM (#18089635)
So Apple products are purely luxury goods and serve no utility. I think that's more than a little ridiculous.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by andybak on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:13PM (#18089984)
You seem to be willfully interpreting the parent post. It's more nuanced than you are claiming.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by rfrey on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:34PM (#18090550)
I had to go back and re-read, your comment was so unexpected... but nowhere did I see anybody say Apple products had no utility.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by asn0 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:56PM (#18089615)
I've started to think Apple is more competitive on laptops than it looks from the price.

Every time I've priced out a laptop with similar configuration to my MBP (including a good-quality display, NvME SSD, good battery life), it always ends up costing about the same as an MBP. And then Apple's customer service definitely tips in their favor (I've been spoiled by fast, convenient, competent repair service at the Apple store).

So either everyone is making big margins on well-configured laptops, or the perception of over-priced MBP's is misplaced.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by chrisweekly on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:21PM (#18090283)
I was just commenting to my wife how remarkable I find it that my 2012 Macbook Pro 15 Retina is meeting all my needs as a software consultant. I used to think 3 years, maybe 4, was the useful lifespan of a high-end machine for daily professional use. In a few months it'll be 7 (seven) years old. It has 3 or 4 dead pixels, but everything else about it is working flawlessly. Maybe they don't make em like they used to, but man have I gotten my money's worth out of this one.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by volkl48 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:09PM (#18090685)
That's mostly a function of the general slowdown in the hardware cycle (for most applications).

I have both a Mac and a PC laptop of that vintage and they're both still perfectly suitable for anything short of current gaming or other extreme tasks.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by snowwrestler on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:57PM (#18090642)
I'm posting this from a Macbook Pro I bought in November 2008. My family uses it daily.

My daily work computer is a 2012 Macbook Air which I dropped from a standing height 4 years ago. It has one bent corner but still runs great.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by visarga on Friday September 28, 2018 @02:16AM (#18091401)
I still have iMacs from 2007 that are being used by my kids. I only upgraded the HDD to SSD a couple of years ago and they work flawlessly. No viruses, no tech support needed for 10 years.

That is just amazing hardware, but on the other hand, I have a pair of AirPods that just can't autoconnect to my MacBook unless I fiddle with the Bluetooth and speaker icons in the toolbar every time. And AirPods were fucking expensive and both are produced by Apple. What gives? How can they be so incompetent in making a wireless device connect to another wireless device?

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by chrisweekly on Friday September 28, 2018 @07:33AM (#18092545)
Yeah Bluetooth sucks, and this is compounded by Apple's subpar BT handling in macOS.

That said, my Sennheiser HD1 headphones are absolutely amazing, and I don't miss being physically tethered to my laptop.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by prewett on Friday September 28, 2018 @03:06AM (#18091546)
I think the problem with the AirPods is Bluetooth. I refuse to use any Bluetooth device because I've never had a pleasant experience with it.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by gambiting on Friday September 28, 2018 @04:51AM (#18091899)
Yep, I'm still using a 2008 MacBook Pro daily - I only replaced the HDD with an SSD and it runs great.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by econ_th0 on Friday September 28, 2018 @06:09AM (#18092193)
i am still using my t420 think pad from 2008

runs perfect

just saying...

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by realharo on Friday September 28, 2018 @03:11AM (#18091562)
I'm still using my mid-2012 Asus laptop that was like €1300 at the time.

I did buy a few upgrades since then (16GB RAM, bigger SSD, new battery) but given that I don't do any gaming, there is very little that a new purschase would get me.

So this is definitely not a Mac-specific thing.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by dpwm on Friday September 28, 2018 @08:18AM (#18092723)
Just to add another datum: Thinkpad T420, 2011. Bought used two years ago and still the best laptop I've ever owned.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by godzillabrennus on Friday September 28, 2018 @01:15AM (#18091248)
I have owned four MacBook Pros since the introduction of the 2012 retina.

The years being 2012, 2014, 2015, and 2017.

The only two working still are the 2012 and the 2017 but I had a warranty swap on the 2017 in early 2018.

That 2012 model is incredible.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by hinkley on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:40PM (#18090107)
Tim Cook was in charge of this sort of logistics when Steve was alive. There are worse people to be left in charge.

When I bought a Cinema Display I figured out that a display with the same response time and color gamut would run about $75 cheaper and have a plastic case.

$75 for aluminum, more ports and being able to pick it up that day was more than fair.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by kayoone on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:56AM (#18091187)
This has been true for me until the last generation (Touchbar) Macbooks came out in 2016. They seem to be vastly more expensive than the older generation was and are usually quite a bit more than a comparable non-Apple Laptop. A well equipped 15" used to be around 2500 EUR, nowadays it's 600+ EUR more.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by Cthulhu_ on Friday September 28, 2018 @06:42AM (#18092331)
Yeah the touchbar really drives up the price, it's basically an apple watch built into a macbook (big oled screen, fingerprint reader and the apple watch's chip, plus all the interconnects required). So adding the price of an apple watch to a macbook pro makes sense.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by kayoone on Friday September 28, 2018 @06:12PM (#18097481)
sadly it's mostly useless
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by bioxeed on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:36PM (#18089820)
This depends a lot where you live. Possibly in the US this is true but currently here in Australia to get an MBP that matches the top spec Dell XPS15 would cost at least $1k aud more. And still not have the touchscreen the dell has.

That didn't always used to be the case. Previously at launch an MBP was often quite keenly priced for the specs. But the last couple of generations have been badly overpriced.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by wink on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:36PM (#18090088)
Same for Germany, I actually have to go out of my way to add bonus stuff to reach the price point of an MBP (I use ThinkPads).
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by visarga on Friday September 28, 2018 @02:25AM (#18091420)
No problem for me - I only buy used MacBooks lately. They work just as well and are cheap and you can always find one. As a side benefit, I prefer to prop up the second hand market today than the producer. I only have a new MacBook at work and I hate its keyboard and lack of varied ports (I always need to use a fugly dongle with it). Unfortunately the company can't buy second hand :-(
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by brandonjm on Friday September 28, 2018 @01:47AM (#18091324)
> the last couple of generations have been badly overpriced.

Which ties back into the earlier comment on this thread that after Jobs died, the company has gradually devolved into a 'premium cost for not quite as premium hardware' tech company. Previously MacBooks were well priced for what you got (Australian here also), nowadays they are more expensive that equivalent laptops which have more connectivity, touch screen etc.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by H1Supreme on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:39AM (#18091135)
> Every time I've priced out a laptop with similar configuration to my MBP

Which one is that? Until this past July, they were consistently a CPU generation behind every other brand on the market.

I paid $800 (I think it was $899 retail) for my current 13" Dell Inspiron 7000 laptop. It has an i7/DDR4 RAM vs the i5/DDR3 in the MBP, but given the slower hard drive, let's call it even.

The comparable MBP is $600 more at $1,499.00. The display is no doubt better, but I don't know that it justifies that much more money.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by imron on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:43PM (#18090589)
This has been true for at least as long as I've been buying apple laptops (over a decade).

If you want something with a similar form factor (light and thin) then anything with similar hardware specs from another company has always been around the same price, or more expensive.

I think the perception of over priced laptops is misplaced because people look at base specs, but ignore form factor. And, yes you could argue that you don't need something so thin and light, and maybe that's true for some people, but if it's a feature you want then apple laptops are competitively priced.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by umichguy on Friday September 28, 2018 @05:37AM (#18092087)
I like Apple too - writing this on a 2013 rMBP. Works flawlessly (touch wood).

But the new Pro series is just not pro enough for me. Why the hell should I buy a dongle for everything? It's supposed to be pro - you shouldn't have to basically carry a whole bunch of dongles to get stuff done. I don't know, maybe I am technophobe, but sometimes taking away the stuff which works and useful to shave a mm in height is just stupid from my perspective. If I want a super light laptop without the need for ports etc. I would go for an Air.

Dunno what's going to happen but will stick to my 2013 till it literally won't work anymore.

/end of rant

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by Cthulhu_ on Friday September 28, 2018 @06:43AM (#18092340)
Apple's long been a proponent of doing things wirelessly; the main problem is that both power and displays aren't yet wireless. I wouldn't mind if Apple came out with a new display or 'docking station', I think they would need only one cable to connect the screen + provide power. USB-C is really versatile like that.

A shame they got rid of the SD card slot though, and I will be very upset if they get rid of the 3.5mm as well.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by lmm on Friday September 28, 2018 @06:25AM (#18092246)
If one of the three or four configurations Apple sells is exactly the one you want, there isn't much or any premium. But if you make a fair comparison by picking a configuration at random (or e.g. pick a particular program that you want to run) then you can easily end up paying 50-100% more to get an Apple that does what you need.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by ac29 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:15PM (#18090264)
Out of curiosity, I specc'd out a Thinkpad T480 as close as I could to the base model MBP, and they are reasonably similar in price (the Thinkpad is $2100 to the MBP's $2400).

Thing is, if you drop a few upgrades, such as dropping the CPU speed by a few percent, dropping the dGPU, going to a 1080P screen, and using a SATA instead of NVME drive, you're down to $1400 for largely minor decreases in performance and capability (none of those things would affect my use cases appreciably, you might be different). Apple doesn't give you those options in a MBP, and the standard MacBook is pretty outdated, topping out at an old dual core i7.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by isatty on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:45PM (#18090354)
I’m sorry but dropping to a 1080p after using a Retina display or even a 2K dell screen is absolutely horrible. If you’re a programmer you spend your day looking at screens - make it nice.

Also, the difference between a SATA SSD and NVMe is night and day.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by kbenson on Friday September 28, 2018 @02:27AM (#18091425)
...that's largely irrelevant to what was said.

A similar model to the base MBP is ~$300 (~12%) cheaper, but by also dropping some other features they didn't feel were important for their use case, they could get the price close to $1400 (40% cheaper), but Apple doesn't even offer those options.

The point is not to say that a $1400 laptop is equivalent to the base MBP, but that a $2100 laptop is, and a cheaper MBP might be possible if apple was willing to offer some lower end/dated features. But they aren't.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by carlob on Friday September 28, 2018 @04:18AM (#18091776)
FWIW I specced out a T480s and I got something that in terms of RAM wasn't even available on macs at the time (24 GB), weights under 1.5kg, has HDMI, ethernet USB and USB-C, a matte HIDPI display and a proper keyboard (and it came out costing like a top of the line MBP).
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by voltagex_ on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:04PM (#18090436)
How heavy are both of those laptops, though?
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by wpietri on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:41PM (#18090578)
And I would add that although some people see Apple's recent lack of innovation as proof that you need an asshole dictator at the top, I take it as proof that putting abusive people on top harms those under them, preventing people from really owning what they're doing or learning to innovate collaboratively.

It's basically "après moi, le déluge" as self-fulfilling prophecy. Real leaders create something that lasts beyond their deaths. Contrast this to George Washington, who could have ended up king but worked hard to make America about institutions, not men. Or, in business we can look at places like Toyota, which have remarkable cultural consistency and continuing innovation across the decades.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by eecc on Friday September 28, 2018 @04:20AM (#18091780)
Premium, not luxury. There's a significant difference.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by m3kw9 on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:18AM (#18091040)
Can a premium priced goods be different than luxury goods? Yes. Prime example is an iPhone vs a name brand hand bag. The utility difference is massive.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by EGreg on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:22PM (#18089753)
You are wrong. Apple’s pace of innovation has slowed dramatically. This latest phone is but one example.

Here is what would have happened under Jobs:

http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=234

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by arcticbull on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:23PM (#18090026)
Ah it’s every second year again huh? When innovation is dead and nobody knows if it’ll ever be back. Until next September that is...
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by brisance on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:24PM (#18090302)
Really? Name another smartphpone maker that ships as many VCSELs as Apple did last year. And name a wearable that does as much as the new Apple Watch.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by snaky on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:11AM (#18091012)
> With only seven million iPhones sold in China during the second quarter of 2018, Apple's market share in the country dropped by 12.5 percent year on year to 6.7 percent, according to a report by the International Data Corporation (IDC)

> If you head over to Xiaomi China’s official store (via XDA-Developers) you’ll see three new bundles unsubtly named the XS, XS Max, and XR sets. Included in each bundle is a new Xiaomi phone — either the Mi Mix 2S, Mi 8, or Mi 8 SE, respectively — a Xiaomi Notebook, a Mi Band 3, and a Bluetooth earpiece/earphones, all for the same price as their namesake iPhones.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by brisance on Sunday September 30, 2018 @10:11PM (#18109561)
What's that got to do with VCSELs?
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by SkyMarshal on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:19PM (#18088786)
I don’t think Apple products are any different without Jobs, the problem is they’re nothing new either. With Jobs you knew he loved and lived technology and was always looking for cool new things to do with it. Most of his product launches did just that and brought some excitement about possibilities.

Current Apple products are meticulously, exactingly designed and built, but they’re losing the excitement and expectation of something truly new and original that Jobs brought. That’s the big difference I think a visionary leader can make.

Musk is doing the same thing with electric cars and space. Tesla and SpaceX could survive without him for a time, and since they’re very different industries than consumer electronics, maybe even thrive under a Tim Cook-like operator par excellence. But no guarantee.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by rl3 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:45PM (#18089054)
>Current Apple products are meticulously, exactingly designed and built, ...

I disagree. Look at the MBP keyboard issues, or the declining quality of OS X.

Under Jobs that shit wouldn't fly. Other roles aside, one of Jobs' most important functions was that of acting as a sanity check to ensure that the constiuent parts of any given product came together as a cohesive whole.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by threeseed on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:04PM (#18089650)
Again with the revisionist history.

Did you ever use the first 3 versions of OSX ? Because I did. And the quality was pretty unacceptable compared to OS9 or Windows. On the hardware side how long did Apple stick with the coffee puck mouse. Or how about the iPhone 1 never even having 3G or MMS or how about all of the issues with the GPU.

But yet Steve Jobs still shipped it all. Why ? Because his slogan was always "real artists ship".

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by philwelch on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:03PM (#18089930)
Mac OS 9 didn’t even have memory protection, what are you talking about? The problem with early versions of Mac OS X were feature completeness, software support, and performance, not quality.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by jhabdas on Friday September 28, 2018 @08:00AM (#18092654)
When did HN turn into Reddit?
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by davidcbc on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:25PM (#18089763)
Apple had issues like this when Jobs was there too. He's the reason "You're holding it wrong" is a common phrase
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by arcticbull on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:27PM (#18090042)
Yeah, it would have flown, and did. Remember when the MacBook first came out and every 5th it 6th white one had a dark yellow film? Or how the touch pads had waves and wobbles in them? The MacBook Pro exploding and misshapen batteries? The MacBook Pro thermal paste issues and how they ran at up to 100C and shut themselves down? Every time some big new production change happens there are teething problems no matter who’s in charge.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by hinkley on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:45PM (#18090141)
From what I understand Ives was distracted during this design cycle. Now that the headquarters are built I’m waiting to see if all of this crap is fixed in the next iteration.

But it’s getting easier and easier to skip a generation of laptop these days. My old machine is just starting to get slow enough that I notice. That’s a big problem for manufacturers.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by baddox on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:18PM (#18090729)
You’re just listing things that have been described as product failures since Jobs died. Sure. But anyone can also make such a list from when Jobs was CEO.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by appleiigs on Friday September 28, 2018 @01:00AM (#18091204)
For me the best examples of shit that wouldn't fly is the the iphone's protruding camera and the notch.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by adrian_mrd on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:35PM (#18089815)
Me.com launch? That happened under Jobs' watch...
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by baxtr on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:27PM (#18088874)
Why would you say that for example the Apple Watch is "nothing new"?

Or: what is the difference between jumping from an iPhone to an iPad (considered as genius by Jobs) and jumping from a fingerprint ID to a 3D face recognition.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by Animats on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:35PM (#18088972)
Why would you say that for example the Apple Watch is "nothing new"?

Pebble.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by baxtr on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:37PM (#18088987)
So then the iPhone was nothing new either?
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by isostatic on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:30PM (#18089405)
Indeed, and the ipod had no wireless and less space than a nomad, it was lame.

Oh wait, while Malda was technically right, it turned music files mainstream, and the iPhone turned touchscreen phones mainstream

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by stevew20 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:40PM (#18089019)
Affirmative.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by reanimated on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:06PM (#18089218)
Yes it wasn't new per se, they didn't created first mobile phone with a touchscreen, but you can't deny that this one device single handedly shifted direction of entire industry. Similar things, just not in that scale is happening with watch. In reality no other smartwatch is even close to the Apple Watch. There is no competition. Same as with an iPad or the iPods before that.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by reanimated on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:24PM (#18089353)
but they’re losing the excitement and expectation of something truly new and original

It's just the technology which has matured. The innovation slows and becomes more incremental so certainly the excitement goes down. Jobs wouldn't have been able to change that. Maybe the quality of new Macs would be better or maybe he would have pushed his engineers more to make more elegant way to solve the notch problem, but that's it. Don't make a mistake, he was insightful executive, not the miraculous engineer inventing new technologies. At this stage of the company he would probably just pushed more to the services and content deals.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by ForrestN on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:22PM (#18088823)
Your argument is fundamentally unconvincing because you're using unsubstantiated, subjective claims that anyone can disagree with and thereby nullify.

While you say that Jobs curbed "bad" decisions, and that now the company is "money grubbing," and that he alone kept Apple going in the "right" direction, you don't explain why you think so.

Someone could say the opposite (I don't have an opinion).

For example, far more people choose to purchase iPhones for far more money than they did during Steve Jobs' tenure, so there is some evidence that "bad" product decisions from your perspective are actually good product decisions in the eyes of Apple's customers.

Likewise, Apple's efforts to emphasize ethics and responsibility with respect to the environment, diversity and privacy are mostly new to the post-Jobs era. It may prove hard to argue that spending so much money on those priorities amounts to "money-grubbing," but I can't say for sure because you haven't really tried to argue anything at all.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by stcredzero on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:35PM (#18088971)
Your argument is fundamentally unconvincing because you're using unsubstantiated, subjective claims that anyone can disagree with and thereby nullify.

https://m.facebook.com/JamesHBlack/posts/10156560054277932

so there is some evidence that "bad" product decisions from your perspective are actually good product decisions in the eyes of Apple's customers.

Where did I ever say that being luxury was a bad product decision? I never did. It raises margins. That's a very good thing for a company. However, it's empty and hollow as a driver of new product innovation.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by ethbro on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:27PM (#18088883)
I never thought of Apple as the GE (and GE Capital) of the tech world, but the "do more of the thing that makes us the most money, at all costs" metaphor is starting to fit.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by brisance on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:32PM (#18090325)
The NCPPR representative asked Mr. Cook to commit right then and there to doing only those things that were profitable.

What ensued was the only time I can recall seeing Tim Cook angry, and he categorically rejected the worldview behind the NCPPR's advocacy. He said that there are many things Apple does because they are right and just, and that a return on investment (ROI) was not the primary consideration on such issues.[1]

Apple leads in recycling, renewable energy use and privacy as well.

So, no, your thesis is flat out wrong.

[1] https://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/tim-cook-soundly-rej...

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by baddox on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:16PM (#18090720)
I don’t buy that Apple products or Apple as a company is worse off in any measurable way. I’m sure the there are some people who dislike decisions that happened after Jobs, but Apple and their products seem to be doing fine.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by mortdeus on Friday September 28, 2018 @03:49AM (#18091678)
I knew everything was going down hill the second I seen that they weren't going to call it the Apple iWatch.

Like do they not know how important that lower case "i" is for their award winning and trend setting formula!

And I am being serious right now. My ocd is going nuts just thinking about the lost uniformity of the branding. Especially when they still insist on us calling their other products "my iphone, my ipod, my imac, and now we also have to say "my apple watch"?

How do you even tell somebody to pass you your phone, tablet, and watch all at the same time. "Hey man, can you pass me my iphone and ipad. Oh and my APPLE watch. Like do you not realize how much of my life you are wasting when you force me to say one more syllable.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by eksemplar on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:32AM (#18091102)
I think Apple products are actually better, maybe not so much because of Apple but because their competitors suck.

Android is terrible, I mean, it’s looking more and more like iOS, but it’s still not iOS and it has no privacy if you want to use the official play store (which you want, because all the apps that actually make your phone smart, only live there). Android phones still die after a few years, my iPhone 5s is still a beast.

Laptops, well the surface book is arguably a great device, but it’s also more expensive than a MacBook Pro and doesn’t come with a thunderbolt port. The XPS is decent, but it’s build quality is Dell terrible. Lenovo might make good laptops, but working for the government, I’m not allowed to own one.

Apple has the only working Bluetooth devices on the planet. The magic keyboard and especially the AirPods always work, I can’t say that about anything else.

Plug and play egpu, who else has one?

I think the only place Apple isn’t actually best at what they do is in competition on software services like AI. Siri is terrible, Apple maps are terrible (why aren’t they just using OSM at this point? I’m sure OSM and Apple could find a way to benefit from each other, and OSM is currently better than google maps).

I may sound like an Apple fanboy, and I am, but I’ve become that way because their shit always works right out the damn box. And I’ve never had a piece quit on me by it’s own. I bought a MacBook Pro 2018 edition to work with the egpu, but my old 2013 macbook still runs perfectly fine. I can’t say I’ve ever tried any thing similar, except for thinkpads, and I’m not allowed to own one of those. Meanwhile my 1 year old work laptop from Dell is literally falling apart. The keyboard rattles, the battery lock is breaking and the screen can’t keep itself up. It cost almost as much as my MacBook, and it’s just complete shit. You may wonder why I care about cost of my work machine, but I’m a manager, I still pay for it.

As far as OSes go, Linux is still Linux, if you don’t mind spending half your life configuring it to your needs and then doing it every time it breaks then Linux is still awesome. Windows, the only plug and play option, however, has become atrociously bad. I like Microsoft, we use Azure a lot and stuff like AD and ADFS is heaven sent when you operate 500 different IT systems from as many suppliers, but windows 10 is one of the worst OSes I’ve ever operated. So again, Apple has managed to be great at OSes, mainly because their competitors suck.

I do think not having an iPhone SE is a mistake, but I also thought losing the headphone jack was a mistake, and sales have since proved it wasn’t, so who knows.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by carte_blanche on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:56AM (#18091188)
OSM is better than GMaps?

I hate having to go to Google for everything as much as the next guy, but I just can't bring myself to use OSM over Google Maps. GMpas are just.. better in every case.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by eksemplar on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:59AM (#18091201)
I’m Danish, OSM is updated a lot faster than gmaps. Obviously google is better at routing and traffic, but routing doesn’t work if a road is closed for construction and google doesn’t know.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by sho_hn on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:07PM (#18088677)
I get what you mean - but Musk isn't always like that. Not like Jobs.

If you look at the recent BFR video on the SpaceX channel, early on he gives an update on the technology, and there's a part where he takes much longer than the audience cares for to praise the job SpaceX' propulsion engineering team did on the new engine. And you can very easily tell it's genuine respect and gratitude (probably because he had to be more hands-off due to time constraints), not marketing fluff. He's certainly not above crediting people at his company.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by mscasts on Friday September 28, 2018 @03:33AM (#18091630)
Totally agree with the sentiment. I don't despise Musk, I rather like him a lot for all of his work.

BUT I also thought it was weird that, in the podcast, he didn't mention and never has mentioned (of all the appearances I've seen) the entire team of people helping him to the success. Specially in the podcast, because one question that was repeated several times by Joe was like "how do you manage to do all the stuff you do?". I do not like this way of portraying one guy as some sort of alien that does all this when in reality he does very little if you compare it to the work that is done by his employees.

Leadership that goes in the direction that Musk does is really good and very valuable but it's not what creates actual worth.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by pastor_elm on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:27PM (#18088873)
>but not once did he say, "Well I have an amazing team of engineers" and credit all the thousands of people in his organizations that actually do the work.

Engineers are a dime a dozen. They are responsible for the success of these companies in the same way cells are responsible for the formation of a human being.

Why couldn't all those engineers build a cost effective reusable rocket system before Musk came along? Or how about an electric car that could go 400 miles on a battery charge?

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by krapp on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:29PM (#18088914)
>They are responsible for the success of these companies in the same way cells are responsible for the formation of a human being.

So... entirely responsible?

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by pastor_elm on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:31PM (#18088925)
Yo missed my point. Nobody walks around thanking their skin cells for existing.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by krapp on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:43PM (#18089045)
Your point seemed to be that engineers are "a dime a dozen," yet I doubt any "dime-a-dozen" engineer or group of engineers could have accomplished what Tesla's or SpaceX's engineers have.

But let's answer a question you posed in your comment: Why couldn't all those engineers build a cost effective reusable rocket system before Musk came along? Or how about an electric car that could go 400 miles on a battery charge?

They could have, because obviously, they did. Their collective expertise is what made that possible. Elon Musk didn't just draw up all the plans and send it to them to make happen. Elon Musk, however, could never in a million years have done it alone.

So I didn't miss your point, I disregarded it. Those dime a dozen engineers are far more important than Elon.

> Nobody walks around thanking their skin cells for existing.

Well, skin cells are not human beings, so comparing human beings to skin cells is... disturbing at best.

Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by sho_hn on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:16PM (#18089295)
I think OP's point is to credit Musk for the agency in organizing those fine engineers around tackling these problems. Together they had the ability to achieve these things, but that state of togetherness does not arise accidentally. Entirely seperate from his contributions to the engineering going on, building a company is an act.
Re:SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private ... by louisswiss on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:43PM (#18089513)
You would if not thanking them meant you suddenly lost 10% of them though...