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Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by distances on Monday February 12, 2018 @01:38PM (#16360789)
This is a major issue with streaming services. Netflix usually doesn't offer even English subtitles to an English-speaking movie if you're in a non-English speaking country! At least with DVDs you could rip it and add subtitles yourself if needed.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by jedberg on Monday February 12, 2018 @01:50PM (#16360889)
> Netflix usually doesn't offer even English subtitles to an English-speaking movie if you're in a non-English speaking country!

Sadly, this has nothing to do with streaming and everything to do with rightsholders (aka "Hollywood").

The rights on the subtitles are held by the company that makes them, are then sold to the company that distributes the movie, which are then resold to regional distributors, separately from the rights to show the movie. This means that if you want to show, say Transformers, you have to negotiate with one company to show the picture, another company to license the sound, and yet another company for each set of subtitles.

It just isn't worth the effort in most cases to negotiate the Transformers English titles in France, for example.

Movie industry licensing and asset packaging are stuck in a time when you had to move physical reels of tape and film around, and still haven't caught up to digital technology.

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by r00fus on Monday February 12, 2018 @02:50PM (#16361449)
> Movie industry licensing and asset packaging are stuck in a time

Relevant quote: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair

Until they see disruption or increased profits, I don't expect they'll change. I expect them to actually be disrupted before seeing it coming.

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by lmm on Monday February 12, 2018 @06:04PM (#16363198)
It's already happening. Netflix and Amazon have both got into the content-production game, and one of their stated reasons is that when they make their own content they don't have to deal with region-specific licensing issues.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by tomp on Monday February 12, 2018 @03:25PM (#16361745)
I don't see how English subtitles for an English movie can even be copyrighted... they're definitely not a work of art, not transformative, just a plain old transcript.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by MereInterest on Monday February 12, 2018 @03:38PM (#16361859)
I could see an argument made that the placement of the subtitles in an arrangement for ease of reading, without blocking key visual information, placed such that a viewer can identify which subtitle is spoken by which character, timed such that jokes are not given away prematurely, has a creative aspect in order to make sure that all such constraints are met when creating subtitles.

It isn't a good argument, but I could see it being made.

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by gamblor956 on Monday February 12, 2018 @04:48PM (#16362604)
Subtitles are literally just the scripted dialogue in textual form, so the copyright would belong to the studio (having purchased the script from the screenwriter).

Translated subtitles would be copyrighted by the translator under a derivative license from the studio owning the film.

Subtitles of the type you suggest don't currently exist as standalone products; the level of detail and information you are describing would require the subtitles to be part of the film itself (see e.g., Atomic Blonde or John Wick for good examples).

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by freeone3000 on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @11:05AM (#16368148)
ASS subtitle format is rich enough to encapsulate this. You see it in anime subs. They're distributed with the product, but it's a separate stream in the MKV.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by ClassyJacket on Monday February 12, 2018 @03:40PM (#16361877)
Well, yeah, the script of the movie is copyrighted.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by PeterisP on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:45PM (#16364351)
The copyright of the movie script & audio track extends to the subtitles. It's not an independent work of art, but it's part of one - and the copyright holder certainly can licence you only part of their work or only certain forms of their work, and they've chosen to grant you one transformation and not another.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by burntwater on Monday February 12, 2018 @03:02PM (#16361525)
I guess all that licensing explains why airlines so rarely have English captioning for English-speaking movies. Which really sucks for the deaf and hearing-impaired.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by gsich on Monday February 12, 2018 @04:14PM (#16362225)
Like the enduser cares about whos fault it is. Netflix could at least allow the loading of custom subtitles.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by wpietri on Monday February 12, 2018 @04:32PM (#16362439)
Nah. Netflix has been enormously disciplined about preventing feature bloat, and I really admire them for it. When this problem gets high enough on their list to solve, I'd much rather they did it right (buying the rights or doing their own subtitles) than some sort of half-assed thing that 90% of humanity won't be able to get to work.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by gsich on Monday February 12, 2018 @04:36PM (#16362486)
It is very easy actually. Drag and Drop the subtitle onto the screen. MPC-HC and VLC do this. I would safely assume that Netflix could achieve such simplicity too. And even if it's for 10% of the users, people with hearing problems are more in percentage.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by salvar on Monday February 12, 2018 @05:16PM (#16362847)
There's a lot more to it than that though, especially if you're targeting normal people and not the HN crowd. What if the subtitles are delayed? What if there are problems with the encoding and there are question marks all over the place? All of this is very solvable, but you can't just say "it's very easy actually, just drag and drop".
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by gsich on Monday February 12, 2018 @06:13PM (#16363255)
I can, because it is. Normal people can do that too. I would argue that VLC is mass-compatible.

Since using your own subtitle file, Netflix just doesn't have to do anything besides displaying them. Finding the correct subtitle is the users job, not Netflix. After all this would be called "use your own subtitle here" and I think Netflix can handle Unicode. Not everything has to be spoonfed for the dumbest user alive. Also, I don't think there is a reliable way to detect delays in the subtitle, especially if it's in a different language then the audio track. If you have a reference subtitle track, this might work, comparing time of first appearance. Any subsequent offset might be due to 25/23,976 which could be detected, but again, this is not Netflix's problem.

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by dalbasal on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @08:36AM (#16366980)
To me, whenever I hear someone (seems to have died down) about abundance/scarcity economics, that's exactly is exactly what I think of.

Everyone could have access to all movies/songs/books ever written with every subtitle file, dvd-only extra and whatnot they want. Could in the sense that it already exists and the marginal cost of delivering it to people is 0.

All that dealmaking, liscencing and such that you are describing... They're not strictly necessary. At least, they are not required to deliver the "goods." They are required in order to get revenue. Revenue requires pricing which requires exclusion, scarcity.

Not giving everyone everything is wasteful.

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by gamblor956 on Monday February 12, 2018 @04:42PM (#16362531)
This means that if you want to show, say Transformers, you have to negotiate with one company to show the picture, another company to license the sound, and yet another company for each set of subtitles.

Sound is part of the film license in the US and Europe. This includes music and songs within the film. Studios pay out big bucks to license songs for films.

For example: my current employer would pay a license of approximately $500 to license major label music that will be played at an event to a live audience, broadcast globally, and streamed to 10 million viewers. (The total music budget for a 3-day event is maybe $5000, and that covers hours of music.) A movie studio licensing that same song for a movie would pay a minimum of $25,000, just for that song, assuming that it's part of the back catalog. A song that made the top 100 of the Billboard lists when it was released could command more than $100,000.

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by jedberg on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:18PM (#16363660)
That's not entirely accurate. The song is only licensed for certain uses. For old TV shows especially, digital streaming wasn't a thing, so it wasn't included in the license. They have to be renegotiated for streaming.

That's why sometimes the songs in the shows on Netflix are different than the ones on the DVDs, for example.

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by pietjepuk88 on Monday February 12, 2018 @02:02PM (#16361020)
But they always seem to offer English CC though, just not the regular ones (for many movies). And the regular ones should just be a simple transformation of the CC ones (strip all "\[.*?\]" stuff). That said, the other day I watched the movie "Easy A" which did happen to have both English CC and normal English subtitles. Still the only one I've found so far though.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by distances on Monday February 12, 2018 @02:50PM (#16361448)
English CC is offered in English speaking countries probably for legal reasons. They are not available elsewhere in the world. In Germany you get only German subtitles.

For whatever reason this is not the case for series in Netflix, which most of the time contain also in English subtitles. Wouldn't have helped the original commenter's case of course.

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by taternuts on Monday February 12, 2018 @03:03PM (#16361545)
English CC for English speaking countries is actually for deaf people. There's some new rule/law that is actually making websites include English CC's in order to be compliant, though I'm not sure what the penalty is for ignoring that (probably fines).
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by thesumofall on Monday February 12, 2018 @03:39PM (#16361863)
That’s not correct. All recent shows I watched on Netflix in Germany (on a German account) had English CC subtitles in addition to typically a range of others. This includes Originals and external content such as Star Trek TNG
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by distances on Monday February 12, 2018 @04:27PM (#16362373)
Yes as I mentioned most series have English subtitles, while movies do not. I don't have a clue what's behind this difference.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by jedberg on Monday February 12, 2018 @02:24PM (#16361205)
Technically it is easy to create the subtitles, but legally that would be a derivative work of the CC subtitles, so again, it comes down to copyright law. :(
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by gregschlom on Monday February 12, 2018 @02:57PM (#16361494)
Wouldn't it be a derivative work of the original movie instead? (Assuming that the person creating them didn't use the CC subtitles as a reference point)

Just curious about the technicalities of copyright law.

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by jedberg on Monday February 12, 2018 @04:08PM (#16362172)
Well I only phrased it that way because OP suggested running a regular expression on the English CC subtitles. :)
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by ProfessorLayton on Monday February 12, 2018 @02:14PM (#16361129)
Netflix seems to be pretty opinionated about subtitles. Try watching Narcos without subs, you can't. "Off" means the Spanish parts are subbed, and switching it to Spanish means the English parts are subbed!

Netflix, a Californian company, simply couldn't fathom that some people might understand English and Spanish.

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by kbenson on Monday February 12, 2018 @03:02PM (#16361528)
> Netflix, a Californian company, simply couldn't fathom that some people might understand English and Spanish.

Or they just decided the path that serves the most people without complicating matters is to assume you want subtitles for any language not selected as the primary audio language.

I think the relevant question here is how would you design a control panel that allowed you to define which of the many languages which might be in the movie should be subtitled or not? I think the people that care about this (that is, those that speak both languages and find it annoying) is vanishingly small.

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by ProfessorLayton on Monday February 12, 2018 @05:02PM (#16362740)
I don't agree that adding Off/Auto/Language-of-choice setting is complicating matters. Having an "Off" setting that isn't actually off is not good UX. A huge portion of Spanish speakers in the US also speak English, so I wouldn't say this is a niche feature.

44% of Californians speak a language other than English at home, and 1/5 nationwide [1], yet Netflix' product doesn't seem to cater particularly well to those audiences.

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/censu...

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by wpietri on Monday February 12, 2018 @04:36PM (#16362478)
Yes, exactly. Netflix is militantly opposed to feature bloat. That means picking the case that works well for most people.

And I'd add that what to subtitle is an artistic choice; directors carefully decide what languages to use and what they want to subtitle or leave untranslated. Plus Netflix have to deal with source material from hundreds of companies. Creating clever subtitle features quickly gets out into very deep waters.

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by ekianjo on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:59PM (#16363886)
> That means picking the case that works well for most people.

On the web, you can serve customized content to every single client, because the tech enables it. It's just wrong to go for "one size fits all".

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by mulmen on Monday February 12, 2018 @03:15PM (#16361649)
In the app settings you have a list of languages and the user selects the ones they speak. When CC is on subtitle everything, when CC is off subtitle what is not selected.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by takeda on Monday February 12, 2018 @04:45PM (#16362571)
Yes, that's probably the right way to implement this, but it is still more complex.

No one on this site will have problem with that UI, but I personally know people who have issues with much simpler things.

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by mulmen on Monday February 12, 2018 @04:47PM (#16362594)
Sane defaults are easy to set in this scenario so the average user gets the same behavior as today but those people who want more control can still do so.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by thomastjeffery on Monday February 12, 2018 @05:39PM (#16363036)
Add an English and Spanish audio language.

It's really not hard. The real problem is that because it's closed-source software, the user must rely on the creator to think of every edge case.

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by ekianjo on Monday February 12, 2018 @08:00PM (#16363896)
It would be so much better if the user could just watch the encrypted video feed in just any player they want (provided they interface with a libnetflix library...)
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by thomastjeffery on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @04:37PM (#16371025)
Absolutely.

The only reason I have left to pirate a movie that is available to me on netflix is to get more stable playback, the ability to play slightly faster, and the ability to use Smooth Video Project.

It's obvious that DRM-based platforms have driven TV manufacturers to implement expensive frame-interpolation into their displays, when it can be done much more efficiently at the decoder level, on machines where it makes sense to already have a fast GPU. This is the thing I find most frustrating with this situation.

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by nkrisc on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @09:36AM (#16367380)
If the show or movie has both Spanish and English subtitles, when you go to turn subtitles on/off just show each language with its own toggle. There could also be master toggle to show turn all on/off. I doubt most shows would have more than two, if at all.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by Lewton on Monday February 12, 2018 @02:43PM (#16361388)
That’s a far far saner interpretation of “off” than the alternative

On hbo Nordic, (The Scandinavian hbo go) off means -OFF- and it’s absolutely infuriatingly stupid to expect that I can speak Spanish, or Russian, just because I don’t want Scandinavian subtitles when watching an English movie

Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by YawningAngel on Monday February 12, 2018 @05:57PM (#16363162)
I feel like English-speaking product design in general has not caught up with the idea that there is a substantial audience of very competent second language speakers. Most educated Continentals I know have similar complaints.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by xxs on Monday February 12, 2018 @06:04PM (#16363196)
To help out: in the most of Hollywood movies spoken Russian is usually beyond unnatural with a heavy accent... to a point computer synthesized voice acting would be an improvement.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by ekianjo on Monday February 12, 2018 @08:01PM (#16363899)
Do the same thing happen in Russia when they feature spoken English?
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by xxs on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @04:44AM (#16365914)
(Likely) it used to in the 80s when I was exposed to Russian movies but nowadays I cannot judge due to lack of exposure. (Russian is my 3rd language.)
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by jedberg on Monday February 12, 2018 @02:30PM (#16361281)
Heh, that's actually funny. I'll be that is a technology issue and not a rights issue. The again, how do you indicate that you understand both languages? For a standard movie, the "foreign" language is always subtitled (unless the director specifically sats not to), even with subs off.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by djsumdog on Monday February 12, 2018 @02:40PM (#16361356)
But that's the same for BluRay and DVDs. It's just a limited use case and probably just difficult to program for.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by kodt on Monday February 12, 2018 @02:52PM (#16361462)
edit: never-mind I responded to the wrong post
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by markc on Monday February 12, 2018 @05:24PM (#16362924)
You'd need more "settings" too because some people want only foreign language subtitles turned on (language impaired) and others want subtitles for everything (hearing impaired). And what if you're multi-lingual but hearing impaired? You might want all subtitles for languages you speak in the original language.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by oh_sigh on Monday February 12, 2018 @03:01PM (#16361513)
Perhaps they can fathom it, but the percent of the audience that is spanish/english bilingual and cares about subtitles was too small for them to care about.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by gsich on Monday February 12, 2018 @04:15PM (#16362242)
Burned in subtitles maybe?
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by Larrikin on Monday February 12, 2018 @01:54PM (#16360925)
Netflix and their subtitles is so strange. I have an account but the subtitle selection is so limited. The rip of a Netflix show, especially recently, will have upwards of twenty subtitles, I assume from every region they're allowed to show the movie. In the actual app, you're lucky to have more than four, with two of those being English and English for the hearing impaired.
Re:The Long, Slow Decline of BitTorrent (2017) by oelmekki on Monday February 12, 2018 @02:54PM (#16361480)
It may depends on the country. I'm in France, and I almost always have english subtitles. On the rare occasions there is no english subtitles, I always have french subtitles. I never had to watch anything without subtitles on netflix (which btw, is one of the clear wins of netflix to me compared to pirate streaming).