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Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by amorphid on Monday March 27, 2017 @12:59PM (#13969465)
Get everyone focused on thinking about the team's mission, role, and what it takes to get the job done. Drill that into everyone's head and stick to it. Let everything else go.

A mentor once told me that business fundamentally revolves around making money, saving money, saving time, and making customers happier. I like thinking about work that way, as it has nothing to do with religion, sex, gender, age, height, phase of the moon (maybe you employ werewolves), etc.

Focusing on work can be hard though, because it might mean you will encounter a conflict when it comes to supporting a cause with good intentions. Say the MinorityCodingClub wants to host an event in your office. Personally, I think promoting diversity is generally a healthy thing. But what if MinorityCodingClub doesn't allow people not in that minority to participate in the event? You may find part of your staff wants to allow it, and part of your staff opposes it (perhaps silently).

Staying focused on making money, saving money, saving time, and making customers happier. It's hard enough to get people to come together on doing that, so don't tolerate a culture that gets in the way of making that happen.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by simplyluke on Monday March 27, 2017 @03:24PM (#13970843)
Except all of this fallout is because Uber HR determined employee x with a harassment issue is valuable enough to making money that the potential to lose employees y and z is an acceptable risk.

Ethics do not logically fall into place magically because the ultimate goal is making money. It's easy to say "ignore those factors in favor of making money" but the reality of the world isn't that simple. Uber didn't tolerate a culture that got in the way of making money, and now they're here.

"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by belorn on Monday March 27, 2017 @05:01PM (#13971744)
Focusing on work and allowing harassment is polar opposites. Harassment is by definition something personal and not professional, and outside of those supporting hazing there is not much support that harassment has any place in the work place.

Reading the stories about uber, I keep hearing that the woman wanted to focus on work but the harassing person interfered. That is exactly what amorphid suggest that a company should work to prevent, fostering a culture that focus on making customers happier and getting people working together for that a common goal.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by greenhatman on Monday March 27, 2017 @08:15PM (#13972926)
As long as the demand for engineers stay higher than supply, everything should fall magically into place, actually, according to economic theory.

Developer turnover is very costly.

What I got from these womens' answers is that their motivations are pretty much exactly the same as men's. Maybe with the exception of serial harassment cases.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by deathanatos on Monday March 27, 2017 @08:46PM (#13973055)
> everything should fall magically into place

I'm not so certain. I agree, it should. But engineers don't like to talk about their salary; I have no idea what my peers earn, and it isn't easy to find out. Researching data such as discussion on HN, Glassdoor, BLS data, surveys from companies that are more open, etc. yield absolutely ludicrous ranges; I might ought to (depending on who and how you ask) be earning anywhere from 60k to 250k+ as an engineer; that includes throwing out some high & low figures. The situation is made worse by the huge disparities in cost of living between various geographies, making it hard to translate salaries in one area into anything sensible in the next. (You're lucky to get a breakdown to one of a geographical area, or actual line of work, but not both. I want to know what a backend vs. mobile vs. PM makes in Boston vs. NYC vs. SF; and ideally, along even more dimensions. Alas, it seems that blog-studies never release the data.)

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by jmcgough on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:15PM (#13969638)
This is the mentality that leads to drama explosions like at Uber. They were all focused on making money and building a big company. Because of this, they ignored the "little things" like building a HR department that could support women when they were put in bad situations.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by true_religion on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:22PM (#13969730)
I think a part of "don't tolerate a culture that gets in the way of making that [making money] happen" is not tolerating sexism, juvenile behaviour, harassment, or bullying in the workplace.

All of those factors make some of your employees less productive.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by jmcgough on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:43PM (#13969949)
Totally agree. The distinction I'm trying to make is that it's easy to let these things happen when you're focused on building and selling a product. I'm positive that no CEO wants their business to be a place where women are harassed or personnel problems slow down progress. However these things can and do happen without a lot of careful effort spent early on, focused on preventing them. By the time the problems become visible (e.g. through a shocking public blog post), it will be significantly harder to fix the underlying causes, which is very costly to the company in terms of attracting and keeping talent and maintaining focus on objectives.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by michaelchisari on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:17PM (#13970253)
You would think so, but people are very often willing to damage their own financial self-interest in favor of prejudices, especially when the former is long-term and the latter short-term.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by ori_b on Monday March 27, 2017 @04:12PM (#13971278)
That would fall under "tolerating a culture that gets in the way of making money".
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by grad_ml on Monday March 27, 2017 @03:03PM (#13970669)
Nope. Uber case was plain simple case of sexual harassment. My question is, would Uber have arbitrated in same manner if female employees were accused of harassment? yes, they would have. It's not about women,men or trans. It's about equality at workplace. Should one be more sensitive to women employees concern than men? If yes, where is the equality?
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by amorphid on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:48PM (#13969994)
My comment was a comment, not an employee handbook.

Boss: "Hey, my partner​ and I would love it if you'd like to join us for drinks at my place on Saturday night."

Employee (replies & CC's boss's boss): "I'm here to work, and this is making me extremely​ uncomfortable."

^^^ strive for that.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by devereaux on Monday March 27, 2017 @03:37PM (#13970965)
Seriously? What an ass move.

I would have replied saying I will be coming with my partner and look forward having a good time.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by r00fus on Monday March 27, 2017 @07:12PM (#13972646)
If this was not a pass, the manager should have explicitly invited the employee's S.O. and indicated a venue that has no beds in it (bar or restaurant).

Too much vague-ry here, which, on a sensitive topic, is asking for trouble.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by Chris2048 on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:08PM (#13970181)
CC's boss's boss?

A bit passive-aggressive for a friendly gesture isn't it?

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:10PM (#13970202)
Do you think a male boss inviting a female employee over for "drinks" on a Saturday night at his home is nothing more than a "friendly gesture"?
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by prolly_a_moron on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:20PM (#13970279)
Way more often than not, yes.

Is your default position to assume there's an agenda behind every invitation?

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by throwanem on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:25PM (#13970336)
You don't need to see an agenda behind every invitation to recognize the agenda behind this one.

For those genuinely unclear, it's a combination of things - the individual nature of the invitation, the private nature of the venue, the timing and explicit involvement of libations whose effects often include the lowering of inhibitions - all in all it's just a super sketchy thing to all of a sudden pop up in a previously professional relationship. Any one of those would be fine; any two would be a little questionable but probably okay; all three at once constitute a great big flashing neon sign that spells out "YOUR BOSS IS TRYING TO LAY YOU".

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by vidarh on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:52PM (#13970563)
And if said boss isn't trying anything, he still ought to understand the signals it sends sufficiently well to either 1) not do it, 2) invite more people (and make that clear in the e-mail), or 3) make it something much more casual than drinks on a Saturday night.

If he doesn't understand that, he'll be the kind of manager that creates liabilities by leaving e-mail trails of questionable invitations that might get caught up in discovery if/when something happens.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by webkike on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:38PM (#13970449)
I mean that's the thing, I don't deny that if this a purely professional relationship then this comment is incredibly out of place. But often times professional relationships become less professional and more friendly. I don't deny that it is creepy from your perspective.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by throwanem on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:42PM (#13970486)
I mean sure, but if that's the nature of the relationship, nobody's going to be made uncomfortable by the invitation - that's probably why the context in which it was mentioned makes clear that's not the case in this hypothetical. My comments are addressed more toward the "what could possibly be wrong with that?" kind of response it seems to have elicited, and intend to supply that question an answer.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by webkike on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:45PM (#13970512)
I see
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:23PM (#13970321)
No, of course I do not assume there is an ulterior motive behind "every" invitation, but there is a strong sexual undercurrent to the invitation we're talking about.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by amorphid on Monday March 27, 2017 @03:40PM (#13970999)
People hear what they want to hear. As a boss, you can choose to say what you want and see what happens. It might be wiser to choose words carefully, so your subordinates don't get the wrong message.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by Chris2048 on Monday March 27, 2017 @06:06PM (#13972251)
OP says:

> Boss: "Hey, my partner​ and I would love it if..

So, you think the partner being there is just a premise?

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Monday March 27, 2017 @07:31PM (#13972748)
I don't know. The Uber post involved a manager talking about swinging.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by Chris2048 on Monday March 27, 2017 @09:32PM (#13973267)
Big assumption then..
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Tuesday March 28, 2017 @04:49AM (#13975079)
I don't think the presence of the man's partner is enough to make the invitation not seem sexual in nature, is what I'm getting at.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by Chris2048 on Tuesday March 28, 2017 @06:55AM (#13975540)
What makes it seem sexual in nature?

Surely inviting a female employee, alone, is the unusual aspect that would make it appear suspect?

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Tuesday March 28, 2017 @10:00AM (#13976611)
I'm not going to explain it any better than the other guy. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13970336
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by Chris2048 on Tuesday March 28, 2017 @11:21AM (#13977330)
First things in that post:

> the individual nature of the invitation, the private nature of the venue

also:

> You don't need to see an agenda behind every invitation to recognize the agenda behind this one.

How does "that guy" know what agenda there is?

If you can't explain any better then I can't accept your argument.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Tuesday March 28, 2017 @08:31PM (#13982218)
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by webkike on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:36PM (#13970430)
It could be. There's no context here. In this constructed example sure, it's not a friendly gesture. But it is a poor example. Here's the one I'd use:

"Hey employee #333 want to sex"

See? No context necessary

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:40PM (#13970464)
Which one of these e-mails do you think a boss looking to seduce his employee is more likely to send?
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by webkike on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:44PM (#13970509)
I'm saying that it's unhelpful in this example to not be more clear.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:47PM (#13970524)
I don't think so. I think using a more realistic example makes the point clearer.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by misnome on Monday March 27, 2017 @08:43PM (#13973043)
I agree that there isn't enough context. The example doesn't even specify that it's being sent to a female employee (that's an assumption everyone is making) and I can imagine plenty of scenarios - with context - where it wouldn't necessarily be inappropriate.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by vidarh on Monday March 27, 2017 @11:58PM (#13973940)
The context here includes the parent comment to the one setting out the scenario, and the reaction of sending a message copied to the boss's boss complaining about it.

They make it clear that it was sent to a woman, and that the scenario at the very least was interpreted by the recipient as inappropriate.

Yes, there are scenarios where it could be acceptable, but consider that they are (much) narrower than you might think:

* Men can be sexually harassed too.

* Sexual harassment is not the only problem with an e-mail like that. It may also create drinking pressure, or a feeling that you are forced to socialise with your boss. Of course that is context-dependent too, but for my part, as a man who doesn't enjoy drinking and doesn't want to spend my Saturdays with the boss, I'd fell put under inappropriate pressure by an e-mail like that as well, because I'd be concerned that a rejection could impact work.

A lot of behaviour like that is fine when it is not between subordinates, and can be fine with subordinates too if it is someone you know very well.

But even then you need to consider that e.g. it may negatively affect team dynamics or may be unintentionally discriminatory or become seen as discriminatory purely by e.g. including only those the manager knows well too.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by Chris2048 on Tuesday March 28, 2017 @06:58AM (#13975559)
> or a feeling that you are forced to socialise with your boss

Would you feel you'd be fired? Because sometimes getting to know someone is an appropriate pathway to success.

Scenarios like this are more common at start-ups, aren't they? If you just want to drone through work, with no social connections, the average american mega-corp might be more appropriate.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by vidarh on Tuesday March 28, 2017 @04:31PM (#13980375)
My experience is that it seems less common at start-ups, with the caveat that it's my experience and so definitively biased. At least the startups I've been in have been small, tight-knit groups where any socialisation have tended to be group activities, and where there's been little implicit imposing hierarchy, and standing up for yourself tends to be appreciated.

In larger companies, on the other hand, you get all kinds of weird little fiefdoms where getting on your managers bad side is potentially far more damaging because if your boss has sufficient support he will be able to musster a much bigger support system.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by throwanem on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:12PM (#13970213)
That reads to me more like a pass. If a boss made a pass at me, you better believe I'd be looping in someone higher up on that, too, because that whole territory is extremely fraught no matter the response.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by xyzzy_plugh on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:49PM (#13970011)
All work and no play makes Jill and Jack dull.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:10PM (#13970197)
Office dating is dicey but, I think, workable, but the issues with a superior asking a subordinate out on a date are so obvious that I don't see how you can think it's OK.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by amorphid on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:54PM (#13970052)
Get your work done and you can go home early.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by eli_gottlieb on Monday March 27, 2017 @03:34PM (#13970930)
I don't see what popping into stairways in the company building to have sex has to do with making money. From the outside, Uber seems to have gotten focused on a blatantly unsustainable, ultra-exploitative business model and on frat-boy hijinks at the office.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by scandox on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:06PM (#13969538)
This is a wonderful message for those for whom the Status Quo works. It's what we'd like to hear and allows us to ignore tiresome issues.

Eventually it's Versailles time and everybody has to have their heads cut off. So you need to balance this "focused" (i.e. ignore the problem) approach with a longer term plan.

Or rather someone needs to. Or maybe we should just accept getting our heads cut off.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by LukaAl on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:53PM (#13970045)
That's a recipe for disaster!

It works well for delivering your MVP and maybe the first version of your product. But then you want your employee to be empowered, to feel relevant and be able to take matters into their hands. Otherwise it doesn't scale. But happy and satisfied worker could step up to this level. Unsatisfied and soldier like employees cannot do that, they will be just soldiers that fear for their position. And not having even patriotism (that is what bond soldiers) work for them, the best will leave your company, the worst will stay.

That's one of the differences between being a manager and being a leader. A leader takes the hard questions into his hands.

But don't trust me, there are years of research in company organization saying that. Go out and read any article on HBS on the topic of leadership, workplace organization or CSR and you'll see that.

So, your mentor was wrong, sorry about that.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by madsbuch on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:09PM (#13969581)
I think this thinking is discouraging. Bot to men but even more to women and it might be the reason why there are so few women in STEM fields.

I think generally work places should be much more well rounded. We spend a considerable amount of time there, so why not allow it to be a place where we expand our lives instead of a place where we only "make money, save money, save time, and make customers happier"?

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by tptacek on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:28PM (#13969816)
Careful. Plenty of STEM fields have much better gender parity than tech. Tech is singularly bad among the STEM fields; only physics is competitively bad. Mathematics, molecular biology, stat --- all have strong female participation. Worth noting: all these other STEM fields are also heavily dependent on software and computer technology, and women do fine in them.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by mpweiher on Monday March 27, 2017 @03:27PM (#13970866)
Actually, that's not true.

Generic "Engineering" is just as bad as CS. In fact, CS is slowly approaching the Engineering level (from the top).

What's interesting is that the graph that's often bandied about left off engineering, to show CS as the sole outlier.

Things that make you go "hmmm...."

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by tptacek on Monday March 27, 2017 @04:01PM (#13971178)
I just said CS isn't the sole outlier. But exclusion of women is an anomalous state for STEM, whether or not you include "generic engineering" in the mix.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by nialo on Monday March 27, 2017 @06:55PM (#13972565)
I went to Georgia Tech for Mechanical Engineering, I think generic engineering has approximately the same set of sexism problems as CS. I wouldn't try to use it as a way to say that CS doesn't have a problem
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by bigger_cheese on Monday March 27, 2017 @08:04PM (#13972887)
My sister and I(male) are both engineers, she is a mechanical engineer and has related to me a lot of the difficulties she has faced with this career.

I think engineering is probably worse than CS because there is discrimination from technical as well as non technical peers.

Among non technical peers (Operators, fitters, boilermakers etc) side of things there is a tendency for people to assume female engineers lack physical capabilities I see it out on mine/construction sites etc workers will refuse to let female engineers carry tool bags etc. They won't look twice when I heft a bag full of Stillson wrenches around yet I've seen on occasions they'll almost snatch the bags out of female colleague's hands.

As a male I'm pretty much left to my own devices when I'm out on site the workers assume I'm competent. For females there is a tendency for workers to "hover" they won't trust her ability until she demonstrates it. The culture out on construction sites etc is not really all that female friendly in general. I mentioned it to my sister once and she was pretty dismissive her response was something along the lines of "That's just the way things are they assume I'm just a clueless girl until I prove to them I know what I'm doing".

On the technical side I see it a lot with external clients when they visit the office sometimes they'll do things like assume a female engineer is a secretary.

Most of the diversity efforts are focused on technical side of things around inclusive office culture and things like that. There are not a lot of initiatives targeted towards non technical peers other than very token stuff like "Don't put up pornography in site sheds and crib rooms".

My sister ended up quitting her job at a power plant and works in government now she seems much happier there.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by madsbuch on Tuesday March 28, 2017 @02:36AM (#13974579)
I think this is spot on. But I also think it is a structural thing: We have always been told "children and women first to the lifeboat, then men". I think this is a bi-product of the spare-the-women culture we are living.

Maybe men are more trying to be polite than hostile when they won't let women carry heavy loads?

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by madsbuch on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:50PM (#13970028)
Sorry, you are completely right.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by tnecniv on Monday March 27, 2017 @03:19PM (#13970790)
Are you sure math is doing much better than tech? The others I know are much more balanced but I thought that women were underrepresented in math as well.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by tptacek on Monday March 27, 2017 @04:01PM (#13971179)
Yes. You can look up the stats yourself; they're not hard to find.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by Chris2048 on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:13PM (#13970219)
Isn't 'tech' a broader term than those other subjects though?
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by Chris2048 on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:11PM (#13970207)
> might be the reason why there are so few women in STEM fields

It might be, as is repeatedly suggested; but it probably isn't. If it was, we'd see more women study STEM in the first place.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by mememachine on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:16PM (#13969655)
Many of us don't want it to be anything more than that. That's what the rest of our life is for.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by madsbuch on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:50PM (#13970020)
That's completely fair. But my proposition was not about your preferences. I conjectured that a shift to a more whole view of employers (rather than just machines) would be beneficial for most people.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by brianmurphy on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:33PM (#13970408)
The purpose of my life outside of work right now is dating women so I think you are treading dangerous waters by asking people to bring a more "whole" view of themselves into the workplace when that is perceived to be the problem in the first place.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by madsbuch on Tuesday March 28, 2017 @02:31AM (#13974559)
Again, a "more whole view" is not a complete view. I didn't suggest that we bring in all aspects of life. Why is it that people purposely misunderstand my words / does not see the scope? (I talked generally, not individually, and I did not talk about bringing all aspects in)
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by stackptr on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:48PM (#13970537)
Sounds like the convenient POV from someone already well represented in the industry. Dismissing issues of diversity as being tangential to the core business of, well, business, is sensible from an, ahem, business-perspective. And from a human perspective, really flawed and problematic.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by humanrebar on Monday March 27, 2017 @03:03PM (#13970663)
From a human perspective, humans are really flawed and problematic.

That extends to even the most well-meaning diversity initiative. If nothing else, diversity initiatives create implicit filters for the types of people that are excited-to-ambivalent about diversity initiatives.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by travisjungroth on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:09PM (#13969576)
Wait, how does your advice answer your question about the event? Are you saying that you shouldn't host a diversity event because it doesn't explicitly match the four things you listed? Because someone might not like the event? I don't get it.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:13PM (#13969616)
It seems like what he's saying is that you shouldn't allow it to happen because it's not strictly work-related but I find it hard to agree with that thinking.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by peterwwillis on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:15PM (#13969641)
The whole position is summed up as "Be a corporate drone." I think a lot of us would disagree with it.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by ruleabidinguser on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:23PM (#13969751)
Many of us don't care.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:32PM (#13969859)
If you don't care then it seems like allowing people who do care to hold their women in technology groups or whatever would be fine.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by ruleabidinguser on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:53PM (#13970570)
except when its disruptive, which is when i do care.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by peterwwillis on Monday March 27, 2017 @03:54PM (#13971111)
I thought silicon valley loved disruption.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Monday March 27, 2017 @04:12PM (#13971270)
For instance?
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by ruleabidinguser on Monday March 27, 2017 @05:27PM (#13971926)
Well I was just thinking of it interfering withwork
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Monday March 27, 2017 @06:04PM (#13972241)
In what way would it interfere with work?
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by ruleabidinguser on Monday March 27, 2017 @07:15PM (#13972665)
its happening at work no? what does it have to do with work otherwise?
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Monday March 27, 2017 @07:33PM (#13972761)
Ok, it's happening at the office. So how is it interfering with anyone's work?
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by ruleabidinguser on Monday March 27, 2017 @09:18PM (#13973194)
Just like any in-office demonstration interferes. Its not special in any way you know.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Tuesday March 28, 2017 @04:52AM (#13975086)
"Demonstration"? I've never met anyone who opposes any kind of workplace activity (say, charitable giving or birthday parties) whatsoever.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by ruleabidinguser on Tuesday March 28, 2017 @02:30PM (#13979284)
Now you have
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by Jemmeh on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:17PM (#13969663)
So put your head down and ignore the fact that women make up a small portion of people in STEM fields and are leaving those jobs once they get them?

That's not a solution, it's what most places are already doing.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:10PM (#13969585)
I mean these Silicon Valley firms keep getting caught in blatant sexual harassment cases. I think a lot of them need, like, basic remedial education.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by vkou on Monday March 27, 2017 @06:43PM (#13972495)
I am positive that many (But not all) of these firms put their managers through sexual harassment training. I went through it before I received reports.

The problem is that it only takes one idiot to cause a problem... And the odds of at least one manager being an idiot approach 100%, as your company grows.

(In a place like Uber, though, the problem seems systemic.)

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by briandear on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:16PM (#13969651)
The irony is that these are "progressive" companies.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:21PM (#13969716)
Well, that's a whole different rant but, really, you read about grown men texting their female coworkers incessantly with crude sexual propositions and you have to wonder how they ever came to believe this was acceptable behavior.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by Jach on Monday March 27, 2017 @03:06PM (#13970699)
Presumably it's like spam, it works some percentage of the time and the consequences for it not working aren't severe.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Monday March 27, 2017 @04:26PM (#13971431)
Well, until your behavior is the cause for a massive lawsuit, anyway.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by amyjess on Monday March 27, 2017 @06:03PM (#13972236)
I'd say that the reason why sexual harassment is such a problem at SV unicorns is because of the SV startup culture, not despite it.

SV encourages people to move fast, be aggressive, don't be afraid to break things, ignore regulations, disrupt all the things, etc. There are substantial similarities to the way a VC-funded startup operates and the way a pick-up artist operates.

You'll notice that Susan Fowler's blog post also goes into detail about the Game of Thrones-esque culture with middle managers constantly and openly plotting to overthrow their superiors and take their jobs. A culture that encourages you to figuratively fuck your boss also encourages you to literally fuck your subordinates. It's a culture of aggression and proving your dominance.

Big traditional conservative companies on the other hand... well, they just don't have that culture. Their culture discourages people from taking risks at every level. In order to get anything done, you have to go through several layers of bureaucracy, put everything in writing, make sure your is are dotted and your ts crossed. It discourages aggressive, disruptive risk-takers from coming near the company. And without aggressive, disruptive risk-takers, you don't have nearly the amount of sexual harassment. Yes, it still happens on occasion, but it isn't nearly as systemic or as blatant as in a VC-funded startup.

So it leads to the seemingly-paradoxical situation where the best companies for women and LGBT people to work at are the kind of "conservative" companies that you can imagine Ned Flanders working at. But culturally conservative isn't the same thing as politically conservative; I've said this before, but I have a lot of politically liberal friends (most of them enthusiastic Clinton voters) who live in the suburbs, work 9-5 at traditional large corporations, and have traditional families.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by emodendroket on Monday March 27, 2017 @08:11PM (#13972916)
Surely part of it has to be how many people in these companies are fresh out of college.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by adrienne on Monday March 27, 2017 @09:10PM (#13973160)
You might be shocked at the amount of misogyny men in their 30s and 40s think is acceptable. (Also, contra 'amyjess - some of the conservative fields, in particular finance and law, are also hideously sexist & contain a ton of harassment.)
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by zem on Monday March 27, 2017 @03:08PM (#13970710)
no, that's how you get status quo bias. the current system makes money, so if that's all you focus on, you'll never address the fact that it treats some demographics worse than others.

also, this sort of "extrapolate to the absurd" list ("religion, sex, gender, age, height, phase of the moon (maybe you employ werewolves), etc.") is a classic red flag for someone not caring about the very real inequalities in the system - the most common variant is "i don't care if you're white, black, green or purple...", but what it really works out to is "i think we can just brush any black-person-specific problems under the carpet and everything will be fine".

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by nothrabannosir on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:33PM (#13970413)
This is either ignoring the problem, or circular reasoning. "Oh well of course don't allow that kind of behaviour; it makes employees uncomfortable and that doesn't help make money." Ok, but how do you define that?
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by decker on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:18PM (#13970268)
Based on your statement, if the company gets more money by doing all sorts of terrible things to its contractors and employees then that's the right thing to do? There's going to be a ton of local minima in decisions and gray areas in things that you can't accurately value if you reduce it all to money. I think you haven't quite thought through this one completely.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by tbabb on Monday March 27, 2017 @07:16PM (#13972673)
If you think that interpersonal and morale issues don't affect how effectively a company functions, I kind of think you don't get how companies function.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by danaliv on Monday March 27, 2017 @02:39PM (#13970458)
If nothing changes, nothing changes.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Techn... by st3v3r on Monday March 27, 2017 @01:11PM (#13969598)
"Staying focused on making money, saving money, saving time, and making customers happier."

To be perfectly honest, that sounds like a recipe for a dull ass, penny pinching, unenjoyable work environment. The kind where you're treated as a cost center.