It is like negotiating with a terrorist that wants to kill you and this is his starting position and then he wants to agree on some compromise, like seriously beating you. There is no negotiation.
That exists and is called "self defense", no?
That data leaks out is always a given. So, gather less data. Ideally none. But this is not a discussion about data. This is a discussion as to what state actors think they are allowed to do. It is an attack on private life of people. See the combined strike against VPNs.
PS I'm referring to bail reform here.
PPS Just trying to frame what the CA government thinks its allowed to do which is apparently anything it wants.
I can only hope you are correct.
Obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/2521/
but... I would also like to keep my kids from seeing the very worst of the internet before they're ready to handle it. I tried using a PiHole but Firefox DNS-over-HTTPS nullifies that now. It's not realistic for me to be watching over their shoulders 24/7; what can I do to keep them away from stuff 99% of people agree isn't for children to see, without something like this?
# https://doh-int.mydomain.net/dns-query
interface: [ip of lan port]@443
interface: [ip of wifi port]@443
https-port: 443
http-max-streams: 220
tls-service-key: "/etc/unbound/keys.d/unbound_server.key"
tls-service-pem: "/etc/unbound/keys.d/unbound_server.pem"
ip route add blackhole "${IP}" 2>/dev/null
If the childs account is not able to gain admin privs then their ability to change settings can be disabled.
I personally think this current version of the legislation is a good compromise. Tech workarounds are fine for the few of us that understand the relevant technology (though I have never bothered to compile DNS in my life and have no plans to do so in the future), but they are simply not practical for most people. Every time I hear someone suggesting this sort of thing I find myself tempted to say 'why worry about legislation? If you don't like what it mandates you can just write your own operating system.'
Of course this would not be helpful because writing your own OS is extremely hard beyond classroom/toy examples. And likewise, tech workarounds and even parental controls are hard for most consumers - partly by design. I have an xbox console and have been trying to figure out why it keeps freezing on certain apps for months now. I suspect a telemetry problem but it's just a guess, there isn't really any way to look at logs so it's a trial and error process because most consumer hardware/application vendors want their products to be black boxes.
I don't think it is a good compromise. It seems to cover the wrong use cases.
My use cases have nothing to do with children on any level. Why would I want to submit to government restrictions? That makes zero sense.
It's as if the right-to-repair-movement would suddenly be undermined by a lobbyist advocating how restrictions are great. Or Jackie Chan suddenly praising the sinomarxist mono-party.
Like no past generation could stop their kids.
Past generations absolutely protected their kids from cigarettes and alcohol. A gate doesn’t have to be 100% effective to have net benefits.
No. Like, obviously no. That’s not how effectiveness is ever measured.
Some kids getting access to booze here and there with planning and coordination is different from kids walking into a liquor store or bar whenever they want.
But like your examples, it's not guaranteed to work.
Install a DNS filter. Firefox circumvented that? Smart kid :)
Censorship circumvention might be a good skill to have in the near future.
I'm sorry, but what? Cigarettes, sure. Alcohol? Binge drinking was absolutely rampant at my school, and I don't think I'm alone. Don't get me wrong, some parents just buried their heads in the sand, but unless you're giving them a breathalyzer when they get home and severely punishing them all the time it's pretty hard to prevent.
(Yes, you might get carded before you can go into a bar or a club, but we're talking about every possible device that can connect to the internet here; that's a lot closer to the grocery store than a bar or club terms of how much of a staple this is for most people's daily lives at this point. Cutting off my ability to access to my bank account, contact doctor, or pay my bills should not be something that should require additional steps because my devices which no children ever used could theoretically be used for a child to try to watch porn).
I agree these proposals are garbage. But if everyone who can credibly say that is busy trying to block any age gating, this is what we’re going to get.
I'm certainly not busy trying to block a bunch of hypothetical policies that no one has proposed when there are garbage ones that are literally getting pushed right now. It sounds more like too many of the people who recognize the harm of this policy are too busy trying to claim that the burden for coming up with a non-garbage policy should be on the people who fundamentally disagree with that framing.
Things a good way to put it. Yes. Regardless of whether you disagree with that framing, that is the frame that’s been set and is being run with. So you can make theoretical arguments against the framing. Or practical arguments against the policies within the frame.
Fluent in pod tide trends and latest sticker packs, but utterly unable to comprehend anything not working, be it wifi, proxy, dns, their phone's mobile connection. Unable to even ask the question "_why_ is something not working" or "what can I possibly do with this arcane message obscuring my $app's screen".
I know that's a quite broad generalisation but I see this in my kids' school across basically all their peers, and I can observe it online.
Anything broken -> passive hang up until fixed (of course if they cna talk to their bestie about the issue, this is what they do).
Nothing. VPNs exist (including free ones), some of classmates will have unlocked devices, etc.
Next question?
Also make sure to block all OSes allowing to install apps from outside the app store, lest someone uses a private socks proxy on their free Cloudflare Worker account.
Make sure to ban/backdoor all the encryption protocols so the traffic not yet blocked can be analysed. And ban all free OSes or someone will write a "black market" encryption/communication protocol.
There's insanity in your request and it needs to be called out.
Here we talk about use cases for EVERYONE. I don't see how your use case is fine for me, because I personally do not agree with it on any level at all whatsoever. You believe in restriction. I don't. There is no common ground here.
> It's not realistic for me to be watching over their shoulders 24/7
Is this your job? At which age will you stop monitoring them?
> what can I do to keep them away from stuff 99% of people agree isn't for children to see
99%? Where do you get those numbers from?
Besides, what stuff anyway? Even then the issue isn't about your kids. It is about laws for EVERYONE.
This is the main problem that needs to be addressed. Everything else is just a byproduct of it. If you support the by product of what was created by conditions that are not being address, you only make the problem worse.
However DoH isn't obfuscated and in order to operate the list of resolvers that firefox uses must be published somewhere. It follows that you should be able to filter the major DoH providers at your gateway.
The better question is "Why do I need to give up privacy on my devices that no children ever use and are used for all sorts of mundane things that are entirely unrelated to what you're trying to protect your children from to solve this problem?" The solution being proposed here is to require ID checks at the OS installation level; this would be like requiring me to flash my ID when I walk out of my house because kids would have to go outside if they were going to try to buy alcohol.
> before they're ready to handle it
You can restrict any access for the network to them. Extra bonus, this will save your child from addiction.
I understand that this is not always possible, but... it's spectrum - try to reach maximum and do your best.
Also, consider that I don't have any experience in raising a little human, so, probably, I'm talking nonsense
How do you propose doing age restrictions for social media?
These are broadly popular. (And the evidence supports them.) They are happening. So the question is how to do it best. The project for reversing the consensus isn’t worthless. But it’s a long-term project that will have to bear fruit after these restrictions go into effect, if ever.
Voters are collectively deciding for all of our children. And there are absolutely group dynamics that require cooperation. It’s why rich communities ban phones in classrooms while in poor communities, the one family that tries doing it alone is probably going to be less successful.
Again, I’m not saying you’re fundamentally wrong. Just that this debate has been had and the polling is massively in favor of bans for under-14 year olds and strongly in favor for under-18s. (And to the degree I’ve connected with electeds, the folks calling in and writing were almost 100% one way. The civically-engaged electorate is practically at consensus.)
Huh?
"lolbertarian - A disparaging term for internet libertarians, used jokingly or not."
[1] - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lolberts
I want government bureacrats, empowered by the stupid median voter, to be as far away as possible from things that I (and any other parent) are perfectly capable of solving by ourselves.
I want more freedom
Sure. Call your electeds next time this comes up. Right now, the ship has sailed. Jurisdictions are debating methodology.
The idea is broadly popular but the second you start asking about implementation details (ie showing your ID to post on the web), the actual approval percentage tanks down to the single digits.
But you knew that which is why you construct this rhetorical motte-and-bailey about it being "broadly popular"
Source?
> But you knew that
I genuinely don’t. I don’t think many electeds do, either.
The playing field is currently lots of angry non-technical parents looking at Silicon Valley leadership not doing anything remotely reassuring when it comes to taking care of their children. And then a good fraction of them being drawn into a proper pantheon of idiot conspiracy theories. (They’re really stupid.) I would love to see polls considering implementation details because that would at least imply somebody is thinking of them.
Right now, honest answer, I don’t think anyone in government is. Electeds see an easy win—or more accurately, a patchwork of angry, mobilized voters they can scoop into their election-year campaigns with a rushed-out bill that pins them to the issue but which neither they nor those voters really have the technical chops to parse.
Best case, we get tripe. Worst, the process gets hijacked.
What it fails to account for is that today's internet is qualitatively different from the pre-social-media, pre-smartphone internet. The vast majority of the internet audience, too, is qualitatively different. Incentives are misaligned for an average parent who might want to keep a tight leash on smartphone internet access for their kids, when attempting to do so will generate fierce opposition from their kids and leave them socially out of the loop.
Maybe we should teach parents how to be parents instead of imposing draconian age checks (read: mass surveillance).
The first example is bad, the second is tolerable.
But the reason most kids don't smoke is that the parents and the teachers instilled in them that it was bad. If a kid wants to smoke or drink, they can surely get an older friend or a friend of a friend to sell them the cigarettes or alcohol. Anyone can buy 20 bottles of hard liquor and 50 packs of cigarettes, sell them to a 15 year old who can then sell them to their friends. That doesn't happen often not because a surprise police raid will show up and bust the seller but because there isn't enough demand. If there is demand from the kids and the parents don't care, kids will get their hands on drugs. Maybe not 9 year olds but certainly the teens.
Big honking "citation needed" there. I think it's far more likely that laws against advertising to minors, and tightening enforcement of prohibiting the sale to minors, is what did it.
On top of it all, smoking has decreased among adults too. Part of that is certainly cutting off a big chunk of the teen-to-adult smoking pipeline, but part of it is also just that adults don't think it's so cool anymore (and "going out for a smoke" is no longer a social or even professional activity), and are more aware of the health risks.
Low-tech Magazine (https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/) has enough articles to publish a thematic book, “How To Build a Low-tech Internet?”. There are other books with concrete proposals: pretty sure Cory Doctorow's published a few (Chokepoint Capitalism, also by Rebecca Giblin; Enshittification; possibly others). You can read these if you would like. But the important part is using and maintaining credible alternatives, reducing both our dependence on and support of these companies.
[1]: although more work is needed to reduce the addictiveness / increase the humanity of Fediverse UIs (which are largely modelled on the corresponding Big Tech social media systems): websites are still the way to go, if you can.
[0] I also know home-schooled people whose parents are far better than any teacher I've ever had and whose education and achievements reflect that obvious fact. Home-schooling itself isn't the issue, and I'd prefer that it remain possible.
The home-educated typically score 15 to 25 percentile points above public-school students on standardized academic achievement tests.
-- https://nheri.org/research-facts-on-homeschooling/#Academic
First independent search result:
> The US-based NHERI describes itself as a leading research institute in the field of homeschooling. However, its neutrality is often questioned.
In all three scenarios (but especially in the first two) there is a sizeable population of parents who know their kid is several years behind grade level, but they tolerate it because they think kids learn at different paces. Or that it's fine for a kid to love one particular thing (cooking, machine repair, art) at the expense of a well-rounded education. And that's not even getting into the 'unschoolers' who treat never opening a textbook as a point of pride.
If you're well-educated and run in circles of people like you then you'll find the homeschoolers who also value education. But if you expose yourself to a wider variety of people your conclusions may change.
Anecdotes like this don't help the case much when government schools in a lot of places "graduate" large proportions of their pupils who are functionally illiterate and innumerate. Then you get misconduct, bullying, abuse that goes on in government schools. Who should "step in" on the government?
Home schooled people do fine, statistically.
Back on the first hard, I'd argue that most of those people might have benefited from having more access to the internet, as it sounds like at least part of the problem was that they had severely limited experience for how to navigate the world outside of small amount their parents allowed them to be exposed to. I'm on board with the government being involved in ways that are beneficial, but "make anyone using an internet-connected device plug in their ID first" just feels like an absurd overreach for what it's trying to solve.
We really can't have it both ways, that every failure of the child is blamed on the parent for lapsing in their almost totalitarian oversight, while also idealizing the idea that children must make their own mistakes and gradually growing into responsibilities and self-governance. Except having access to the Internet, apparently.
Taking a step back, this all smells like madeleines and a yearning for the good old days when everyone rode bikes and nobody owned smartphones. That's not really a productive stance on anything.
(If you would ask me, and I'm sure nobody would, I would think that there is a sort of trade-off here but with a clear answer: Make clear restrictions about buying cigarettes, alcohol, abusive content and extreme porn. But these restrictions aren't meant to be technically perfect. It's ok that some kids will learn to lift the limits and explore what is forbidden. At least then they would know that there is some reason society collectively considers these things off-limits, and that they soon will be in a mistake of their own making.)
The potentially all-powerful government shouldn't know:
- what vices a person has
- what religion a person has or doesn't have
- what porn you watch
- what alcohol and drugs you buy
PERIOD.
All of these things can be exploited. To control jobs, to control finances, to extort influence, to shape ideology, etc.
The government shouldn't be able to catalog those things in a database for later misuse.
The government shouldn't be able to install friction or barriers that make it easy to cordon off and kill these things at a later time.
The "think of the kids" argument can go to straight to hell. Nobody's having children anyway.
This is a very real (not logically fallacious) slippery slope right into the pages of 1984.
It's not about kids. It's about control over society as a whole. They're going to force you to use your ID to access the internet, force you to use an approved device, and the minute you step outside of allowed behavior, you'll be punished.
Shackles and telescreens are coming, and they're using this argument to build it.
Would it be acceptable for a private company to own this information? Perhaps sell it to others?
Private companies should also be regulated with regards to data sales of private information, yes.
Are you suggesting we remove current laws making it illegal for children to purchase these things?
That's besides the point though because this legislation doesn't check people's IDs when they're trying to purchase porn or alcohol, but as soon as they walk out the door, and if they refuse to show it, they have someone following then around even if they just go to the ATM and to the doctor.
With online services, there's no way to ensure your information isn't permanently stored and associated with the transaction for later misuse.
This broad rejection without good reasons is borderline sociopathic. ... and parental control is not the gov raising anyone.
- keeping class sizes small - keeping class within similar development range ( AP with AP. short bus with short bus )
None of it is a secret, but government can't (edit:or won't) make it happen. Hence regular people just doing the best they can within the system at their disposal.
It's why some schools in (iirc) California did away with higher maths like calculus entirely.
Sadly, it seems there's nothing actually common about common wisdom.
Socialization doesn't have to solely occur in an academic classroom.
> like your "sink it" nugget, they lack decent problem descriptions
Let me be clearer then: The legislation has passed but it is 100% possible to repeal that law. And it should be repealed, and we need to not let up pressure on California until it is rescinded. It was a bad law that was not thought out at all and fails to solve any problems.
I'm not worries about corporate feudalism and app age checks.
I'm not sociopathic, you're just making broad assumptions.
Eg "if you ban cellphones in schools then average test scores (on tests like PISA) will substantially improve". Or something else like that.
>This broad rejection without good reasons is borderline sociopathic.
It's sociopathic to not want the people in control to constantly make up new arbitrary rules? I guess we just need a few more Patriot Acts and Snoopers Charters.
This is only going to cause things you describe to get worse and the U.S. government is complicit in this because we have a two party system that works directly or indirectly for the establishment.
I'm not sure if you are encouraging more government intervention, but its clear this is not working. Its like going to a criminal gang and asking for security while they ransack your community and charge you for it.
Governance only works when it represents the people, that is not what this government does right now and no amount of electing the right candidates is going to fix that until we have those two issues addressed.
It's like saying we should install Flock cameras everywhere so that we can protect consumers from buying harmful products. Corruption and mass-violation of human rights is all that's ever going to come out of it.
If the goal is to stop predatory companies, why not do so? Oh right, because that was never the goal.
It's also the tired old argument that's constantly raised by encryption ban/backdoor proponents too. How many times do they have to be debunked, ugh.
If you're against the EFF on these kind of issues, it's typically a good time to reevaluate your position.
Furthermore, age verification is being pushed at multiple jurisdictions across the globe. They're trying multiple approaches to get this through and seeing what sticks.
Governments are dangerous monopolies on force and the use of that force shouldn't be casually tossed out like candy at a parade on crap like this. If it doesn't matter if you lie, what's the point of even doing this, to prove that we're insane? Or is it the pretext for requiring a remote server id carding service in the future under that guise? Keep driving down this road and you end up with an end game that looks a lot more like North Korea than a free society with limited government.
Do you think the rule that children's toys can't contain lead is equivalent to living in North Korea? That's the same kind of law as this one.
You also have a lot more flexibility to negotiate on product quality. If you have a good reason why you can't meet normal product quality standards because your product is sufficiently different from the normal products in that category, you can usually put a prominent warning label on it to cover your ass and then you're fine.
And if they refuse to do all of this and resist, what happens to them? If you want a sample, stop paying your taxes, stuff your money under your mattress and see what ultimately happens. Just because our government is slow, stupid and incompetent doesn't mean that they don't use the same mechanism of action.
I would love to get into why looking at porno is not even in the same universe of danger as lead poisoning, but I've spent weeks trying to explain harm comparison to people that genuinely think high schoolers using social media is the same thing as them using cigarettes and heroin and I'm just exhausted.