News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by zebomon on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:25PM (#42473442)
My initial impression: it's very impressive and very exciting.

My skeptical impression: it's complete hubris to conflate ARC or any benchmark with truly general intelligence.

I know my skepticism here is identical to moving goalposts. More and more I am shifting my personal understanding of general intelligence as a phenomenon we will only ever be able to identify with the benefit of substantial retrospect.

As it is with any sufficiently complex program, if you could discern the result beforehand, you wouldn't have had to execute the program in the first place.

I'm not trying to be a downer on the 12th day of Christmas. Perhaps because my first instinct is childlike excitement, I'm trying to temper it with a little reason.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by hansonkd on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:30PM (#42473481)
It doesn't need to be general intelligence or perfectly map to human intelligence.

All it needs to be is useful. Reading constant comments about LLMs can't be general intelligence or lack reasoning etc, to me seems like people witnessing the airplane and complaining that it isn't "real flying" because it isn't a bird flapping its wings (a large portion of the population held that point of view back then).

It doesn't need to be general intelligence for the rapid advancement of LLM capabilities to be the most societal shifting development in the past decades.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by wruza on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:06PM (#42473858)
And look at the airplanes, they really can’t just land on a mountain slope or a tree without heavy maintenance afterwards. Those people weren’t all stupid, they questioned the promise of flying servicemen delivering mail or milk to their window and flying on a personal aircar to their workplace. Just like todays promises about whatever the CEOs telltales are. Imagining bullshit isn’t unique to this century.

Aerospace is still a highly regulated area that requires training and responsibility. If parallels can be drawn here, they don’t look so cool for a regular guy.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by Workaccount2 on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:27PM (#42474104)
What people always leave out is that society will bend to the abilities of the new technology. Planes can't land in your backyard so we built airports. We didn't abandon planes.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by wruza on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:51PM (#42474346)
Yes but the idea was lost in the process. It became a faster transportation system that uses air as a medium, but that’s it. Personal planes are still either big business or an expensive and dangerous personal toy thing. I don’t think it’s the same for LLMs (would be naive). But where are promises like “we’re gonna change travel economics etc”? All headlines scream is “AGI around the corner”. Yeah, now where’s my damn postman flying? I need my mail.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by ben_w on Friday December 20, 2024 @04:58PM (#42475478)
> It became a faster transportation system that uses air as a medium, but that’s it.

On the one hand, yes; on the other, this understates the impact that had.

My uncle moved from the UK to Australia because, I'm told*, he didn't like his mum and travel was so expensive that he assumed they'd never meet again. My first trip abroad… I'm not 100% sure how old I was, but it must have been between age 6 and 10, was my gran (his mum) paying for herself, for both my parents, and for me, to fly to Singapore, then on to various locations in Australia including my uncle, and back via Thailand, on her pension.

That was a gap of around one and a half generations.

* both of them are long-since dead now so I can't ask

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:45PM (#42474274)
Sure, but that also vindicates the GP's point that the initial claims of the boosters for planes contained more than their fair share of bullshit and lies.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by oblio on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:50PM (#42474892)
We are slowly discovering that many of our wonderful inventions from 60-80-100 years ago have serious side effects.

Plastics, cars, planes, etc.

One could say that a balanced situation, where vested interests are put back in the box (close to impossible since it would mean fighting trillions of dollars), would mean that for example all 3 in the list above are used a lot less than we use them now, for example. And only used where truly appropriate.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by ForHackernews on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:29PM (#42474721)
This is already happening. A few days ago Microsoft turned down a documentation PR because the formatting was better for humans but worse for LLMs: https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/WSL/pull/2021#issuecomment-...

They changed their mind after a public outcry including here on HN.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by tivert on Friday December 20, 2024 @04:26PM (#42475207)
> What people always leave out is that society will bend to the abilities of the new technology.

Do they really? I don't think they do.

> Planes can't land in your backyard so we built airports. We didn't abandon planes.

But then what do you do with the all the fantasies and hype about the new technology (like planes that land in your backyard and you fly them to work)?

And it's quite possible and fairly common that the new technology actually ends up being mostly hype, and there's actually no "airports" use case in the wings. I mean, how much did society "bend to the abilities of" NFTs?

And then what if the mature "airports" use case is actually something most people do not want?

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by moffkalast on Friday December 20, 2024 @05:05PM (#42475532)
No, we built helicopters.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by skydhash on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:18PM (#42474005)
This pretty much. Everyone knows that LLMs are great for text generation and processing. What people has been questioning is the end goals as promised by its builders, i.e. is it useful? And from most of what I saw, it's very much a toy.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by MVissers on Friday December 20, 2024 @10:10PM (#42477252)
What would you need to see to call it useful?

To give you an example– I've used it for legal work such as an EB2-NIW visa application. Saved me countless of hours. My next visa I'll try to do without a lawyer using just LLMs. I would never try this without having LLMs at my disposal.

As a hobby– And as someone with a scientific background I've been able to build an artificial ecosystem simulation from scratch without programming experience in Rust: https://www.youtube.com/@GenecraftSimulator

I recently moved from fish to plants and believe I've developed some new science at the intersection of CS and Evolutionary Biology that I'm looking to publish.

This tool is extremely useful. For now– You do require a human in the loop for coordination.

My guess is that these will be benchmarks that we see within a few years: How good an AI coordinate multiple other AIs to build, deploy and iterate something that functions in the real world. Basically manager AI.

Because they'll literally be able to solve every single one shot problem so we won't be able to create benchmarks anymore.

But that's also when these models will be able to build functioning companies in a few hours.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by skydhash on Friday December 20, 2024 @11:26PM (#42477551)
> ...me countless of...would never try this without having LLMs...is extremely useful...they'll literally be able to solve...will be able to... in a few hours.

That's marketing language, not scientific or even casual language. So much outstanding claims, without even some basic explanations. Like how did it help you save you these hours? Terms explanations? Outlining processes? Going to the post office for you? You don't need to sell me anything, I just want the how.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by wruza on Saturday December 21, 2024 @12:26PM (#42480922)
My issue with LLMs is that you require a review-competent human in the loop, to fix confabulations.

Yes, I’m using them from time to time for research. But I’m also aware of the topics I research and see through bs. And best LLMs out there, right now, produce bs in just 3-4 paragraphs, in nicely documented areas.

A recent example is my question on how to run N vpn servers on N ips on the same eth with ip binding (in ip = out ip, instead of using a gw with the lowest metric). I had no idea but I know how networks work and the terminology. It started helping, created a namespace, set up lo, set up two interfaces for inner and outer routing and then made a couple of crucial mistakes that couldn’t be detected or fixed by someone even a little clueless (in routing setup for outgoing traffic). I didn’t even argue and just asked what that does wrt my task, and that started the classic “oh wait, sorry, here’s more bs” loop that never ended.

Eventually I distilled the general idea and found an article that AI very likely learned from, cause it was the same code almost verbatim, but without mistakes.

Does that count as helping? Idk, probably yes. But I know that examples like this show that you cannot not only leave an LLM unsupervised for any non-trivial question, but have to leave a competent role in the loop.

I think the programming community is just blinded by LLMs succeeding in writing kilometers of untalented react/jsx/etc crap that has no complexity or competence in it apart from repeating “do like this” patterns and literally millions of examples, so noise cannot hit through that “protection”. Everything else suffers from LLMs adding inevitable noise into what they learned from a couple of sources. The problem here, as I understand it, is that only specific programmer roles and s{c,p}ammers (ironically) write the same crap again and again millions of times, other info usually exists in only a few important sources and blog posts, and only a few of those are full and have good explanations.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by throwaway4aday on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:14PM (#42474573)
Your point is on the verge of nullification with the rapid improvement and adoption of autonomous drones don't you think?
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by wruza on Friday December 20, 2024 @06:44PM (#42476265)
Sort of, but doesn’t that sit on a far-fetch horizon? I doubt that drone companies are all the same who sold aircraft retrofuturism to people back then.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by surgical_fire on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:48PM (#42473687)
> to me seems like people witnessing the airplane and complaining that it isn't "real flying" because it isn't a bird flapping its wings

To me it is more like there is someone jumping on a pogo ball while flapping their arms and saying that they are flying whenever they hop off the ground.

Skeptics say that they are not really flying, while adherents say that "with current pogo ball advancements, they will be flying any day now"

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:46PM (#42474299)
An old quote, quite famous: "... is like saying that an ape who climbs to the top of a tree for the first time is one step closer to landing on the moon".
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by intelVISA on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:07PM (#42473872)
Between skeptics and adherents who is more easily able to extract VC money for vaporware? If you limit yourself to 'the facts' you're leaving tons of $$ on the table...
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by surgical_fire on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:27PM (#42474099)
By all means, if this is the goal, AI is a success.

I understand that in this forum too many people are invested in putting lipstick on this particular pig.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by DonHopkins on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:10PM (#42474541)
Is that what Elon Musk was trying to do on stage?
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by zebomon on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:32PM (#42473519)
I agree. If the LLMs we have today never got any smarter, the world would still be transformed over the next ten years.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by handsclean on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:48PM (#42473685)
People aren’t responding to their own assumption that AGI is necessary, they’re responding to OpenAI and the chorus constantly and loudly singing hymns to AGI.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by billyp-rva on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:57PM (#42473771)
> It doesn't need to be general intelligence or perfectly map to human intelligence.

> All it needs to be is useful.

Computers were already useful.

The only definition we have for "intelligence" is human (or, generally, animal) intelligence. If LLMs aren't that, let's call it something else.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by throwup238 on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:03PM (#42473828)
What exactly is human (or animal) intelligence? How do you define that?
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by billyp-rva on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:09PM (#42473903)
Does it matter? If LLMs aren't that, whatever it is, then we should use a different word. Finders keepers.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by throwup238 on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:15PM (#42473966)
How do you know that LLMs “aren’t that” if you can’t even define what that is?

“I’ll know it when I see it” isn’t a compelling argument.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by grahamj on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:46PM (#42474305)
they can't do what we do therefore they aren't what we are
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by layer8 on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:09PM (#42474521)
And what is that, in concrete terms? Many humans can’t do what other humans can do. What is the common subset that counts as human intelligence?
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by dimitri-vs on Friday December 20, 2024 @11:37PM (#42477580)
Process vision and sounds in parallel for 80+ years, rapidly adapt to changing environments and scenarios, correlate seemingly irrelevant details that happened a week ago or years ago, be able to selectively ignore instructions and know when to disagree
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by jonny_eh on Friday December 20, 2024 @04:23PM (#42475185)
> “I’ll know it when I see it” isn’t a compelling argument.

It feels compelling to me.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by Aperocky on Friday December 20, 2024 @04:48PM (#42475395)
I think a successful high level intelligence should quickly accelerate or converge to infinity/physical resource exhaustion because they can now work on improving themselves.

So if above human intelligence does happen, I'd assume we'd know it, quite soon.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by alexalx666 on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:46PM (#42474301)
If I could put it into Tesla style robot and it could do dishes and help me figure out tech stuff, it would be more than enough.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by skywhopper on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:50PM (#42474890)
On the contrary, the pushback is critical because many employers are buying the hype from AI companies that AGI is imminent, that LLMs can replace professional humans, and that computers are about to eliminate all work (except VCs and CEOs apparently).

Every person that believes that LLMs are near sentient or actually do a good job at reasoning is one more person handing over their responsibilities to a zero-accountability highly flawed robot. We've already seen LLMs generate bad legal documents, bad academic papers, and extremely bad code. Similar technology is making bad decisions about who to arrest, who to give loans to, who to hire, who to bomb, and who to refuse heart surgery for. Overconfident humans employing this tech for these purposes have been bamboozled by the lies from OpenAI, Microsoft, Google, et al. It's crucial to call out overstatement and overhype about this tech wherever it crops up.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by noFaceDiscoG668 on Saturday December 21, 2024 @12:38PM (#42480987)
I don’t understand how or why someone with your mind would assume that even barely disclosed semi-public releases would resemble the current state of the art. Except if you do it for the conversations sake, which I have never been capable of.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by AyyEye on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:43PM (#42473637)
> Reading constant comments about LLMs can't be general intelligence or lack reasoning etc, to me seems like people witnessing the airplane and complaining that it isn't "real flying" because it isn't a bird flapping its wings (a large portion of the population held that point of view back then).

That is a natural reaction to the incessant techbro, AIbro, marketing, and corporate lies that "AI" (or worse AGI) is a real thing, and can be directly compared to real humans.

There are people on this very thread saying it's better at reasoning than real humans (LOL) because it scored higher on some benchmark than humans... Yet this technology still can't reliably determine what number is circled, if two lines intersect, or count the letters in a word. (That said behaviour may have been somewhat finetuned out of newer models only reinforces the fact that the technology inherently not capable of understanding anything.)

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by IanCal on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:25PM (#42474076)
I encounter "spicy auto complete" style comments far more often than techbro AI-everything comments and its frankly getting boring.

I've been doing AI things for about 20+ years and llms are wild. We've gone from specialized things being pretty bad as those jobs to general purpose things better at that and everything else. The idea you could make and API call with "is this sarcasm?" and get a better than chance guess is incredible.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by surgical_fire on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:56PM (#42474939)
Eh, I see far more "AI is the second coming of Jesus" type of comments than healthy skepticism. A lot of anxiety from people afraid that their source of income will dry and a lot of excitement of people with an axe to grind that "those entitled expensive peasants will get what they deserve".

I think I count myself among the skeptics nowadays for that reason. And I say this as someone that thinks LLM is an interesting piece of technology, but with somewhat limited use and unclear economics.

If the hype was about "look at this thing that can parse natural language surprisingly well and generate coherent responses", I would be excited too. As someone that had to do natural language processing in the past, that is a damn hard task to solve, and LLMs excel at it.

But that is not the hype is it? We have people beating the drums of how this is just shy of taking the world by storm, and AGI is just around the corner, and it will revolutionize all economy ans society and nothing will ever be the same.

So, yeah, it gets tiresome. I wish the hype would die down a little so this could be appreciated for what it is.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by williamcotton on Friday December 20, 2024 @04:47PM (#42475392)
We have people beating the drums of how this is just shy of taking the world by storm, and AGI is just around the corner, and it will revolutionize all economy and society and nothing will ever be the same.

Where are you seeing this? I pretty much only read HN and football blogs so maybe I’m out of the loop.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by sensanaty on Friday December 20, 2024 @05:22PM (#42475679)
In this very thread there are multiple people espousing their views that the high score here is proof that o3 has achieved AGI.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by AyyEye on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:15PM (#42474587)
Nobody is disputing the coolness factor, only the intelligence factor.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by hansonkd on Friday December 20, 2024 @05:40PM (#42475826)
I'm saying the intelligence factor doesn't matter. Only the utility factor. Today LLMs are incredibly useful and every few months there appears to be bigger and bigger leaps.

Analyzing whether or not LLMs have intelligence is missing the forest from the trees. This technology is emerging in a capitalist society that is hyper optimized to adopt useful things at the expense of almost everything else. If the utility/price point gets hit for a problem, it will replace it regardless of if it is intelligent or not.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by Jensson on Friday December 20, 2024 @07:52PM (#42476616)
But if you want to predict the future utility of these models you want to look at their current intelligence, compare that to humans and try to figure out roughly what skills they lack and which of those are likely to get fixed.

For example, a team of humans are extremely reliable, much more reliable than one human, but a team of AI's isn't mean reliable than one AI since an AI is already an ensemble model. That means even if an AI could replace a person, it probably can't replace a team for a long time, meaning you still need the other team members there, meaning the AI didn't really replace a human it just became a tool for huamns to use.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by MVissers on Friday December 20, 2024 @10:17PM (#42477278)
I think this is a fair criticism of capability.

I personally wouldn't be surprised if we start to see benchmarks around this type of cooperation and ability to orchestrate complex systems in the next few years or so.

Most benchmarks really focus on one problem, not on multiple real-time problems while orchestrating 3rd party actors who might or might not be able to succeed at certain tasks.

But I don't think anything is prohibiting these models from not being able to do that.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by shadowerm on Sunday December 22, 2024 @08:10AM (#42486072)
I agree and as a non-software engineer, all that matters to me right now is how much can these models replace software engineering.

If a language model can't solve problems in a programming language then we are just fooling ourselves in less defined domains of "thought".

Software engineering is where the rubber meets the road in terms of intelligence and economics when viewing our society as a complex system. Software engineering salaries are above average exactly because most average people are not going to be software engineers.

From that point of view the progress is not impressive at all. The current models are really not that much better than chatGPT4 in April 2023.

AI art is a better example though. There is zero progress being made now. It is only impressive at the most surface level for someone not involved in art and who can't see how incredibly limited the AI art models are. We have already moved on to video though to make the same half baked, useless models that are only good to make marketing videos for press releases about progress and one off social media posts about how much progress is being made.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by jasondigitized on Friday December 20, 2024 @04:29PM (#42475237)
This a thousand times.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by colordrops on Friday December 20, 2024 @04:39PM (#42475322)
I don't think many informed people doubt the utility of LLMs at this point. The potential of human-like AGI has profound implications far beyond utility models, which is why people are so eager to bring it up. A true human-like AGI basically means that most intellectual/white collar work will not be needed, and probably manual labor before too long as well. Huge huge implications for humanity, e.g. how does an economy and society even work without workers?
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by vouaobrasil on Friday December 20, 2024 @05:36PM (#42475789)
> Huge huge implications for humanity, e.g. how does an economy and society even work without workers?

I don't think those that create AI care about that. They just to come out on top before someone else does.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by colordrops on Tuesday December 24, 2024 @01:46PM (#42503940)
Yes and we should be super worried about that.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by sigmoid10 on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:38PM (#42473576)
These comments are getting ridiculous. I remember when this test was first discussed here on HN and everyone agreed that it clearly proves current AI models are not "intelligent" (whatever that means). And people tried to talk me down when I theorised this test will get nuked soon - like all the ones before. It's time people woke up and realised that the old age of AI is over. This new kind is here to stay and it will take over the world. And you better guess it'll be sooner rather than later and start to prepare.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by ben_w on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:10PM (#42473915)
> It's time people woke up and realised that the old age of AI is over. This new kind is here to stay and it will take over the world. And you better guess it'll be sooner rather than later and start to prepare.

I was just thinking about how 3D game engines were perceived in the 90s. Every six months some new engine came out, blew people's minds, was declared photorealistic, and was forgotten a year later. The best of those engines kept improving and are still here, and kinda did change the world in their own way.

Software development seemed rapid and exciting until about Halo or Half Life 2, then it was shallow but shiny press releases for 15 years, and only became so again when OpenAI's InstructGPT was demonstrated.

While I'm really impressed with current AI, and value the best models greatly, and agree that they will change (and have already changed) the world… I can't help but think of the Next Generation front cover, February 1997 when considering how much further we may be from what we want: https://www.giantbomb.com/pc/3045-94/forums/unreal-yes-this-...

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by hansonkd on Friday December 20, 2024 @04:14PM (#42475108)
> how much further we may be from what we wan

The timescale you are describing for 3D graphics is 4 years from the 1997 cover you posted to the release of Halo which you are saying plateaued excitement because it got advanced enough.

An almost infinitesimally small amount of time in terms of history human development and you are mocking the magazine being excited for the advancement because it was... 4 years yearly?

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by ben_w on Friday December 20, 2024 @04:34PM (#42475285)
No, the timescale is "the 90s", the the specific example is from 1997, and chosen because of how badly it aged. Nobody looks at the original single-player Unreal graphics today and thinks "this is amazing!", but we all did at the time — Reflections! Dynamic lighting! It was amazing for the era — but it was also a long way from photorealism. ChatGPT is amazing… but how far is it from Brent Spiner's Data?

The era was people getting wowed from Wolfenstein (1992) to "about Halo or Half Life 2" (2001 or 2004).

And I'm not saying the flattening of excitement was for any specific reason, just that this was roughly when it stopped getting exciting — it might have been because the engines were good enough for 3D art styles beyond "as realistic as we can make it", but for all I know it was the War On Terror which changed the tone of press releases and how much the news in general cared. Or perhaps it was a culture shift which came with more people getting online and less media being printed on glossy paper and sold in newsagents.

Whatever the cause, it happened around that time.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by TeMPOraL on Friday December 20, 2024 @05:57PM (#42475941)
I'm still holding on to my hypothesis in that the excitement was sustained in large part because this progress was something a regular person could partake in. Most didn't, but they likely known some kid who was. And some of those kids run the gaming magazines.

This was a time where, for 3D graphics, barriers to entry got low (math got figured out, hardware was good enough, knowledge spread), but the commercial market didn't yet capture everything. Hell, a bulk of those excited kids I remember, trying to do a better Unreal Tournament after school instead of homework (and almost succeeding!), they went on create and staff the next generation of commercial gamedev.

(Which is maybe why this period lasted for about as long as it takes for a schoolkid to grow up, graduate, and spend few years in the workforce doing the stuff they were so excited about.)

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by ben_w on Friday December 20, 2024 @06:33PM (#42476214)
Could be.

I was one of those kids, my focus was Marathon 2 even before I saw Unreal. I managed to figure out enough maths from scratch to end up with the basics of ray casting, but not enough at the time to realise the tricks needed to make that real time on a 75 MHz CPU… and then we all got OpenGL and I went through university where they explained the algorithms.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by torginus on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:26PM (#42474094)
The weird thing about the phenomenon you mention is only after the field of software engineering has plateaued 15 years ago, as you mentioned, that this insane demand for engineers did arise, with corresponding insane salaries.

It's a very strange thing I've never understood.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by dwaltrip on Friday December 20, 2024 @04:10PM (#42475069)
My guess: It’s a very lengthy, complex, and error-prone process to “digitize” human civilization (government, commerce, leisure, military, etc). The tech existed, we just didn’t know how to use it.

We still barely know how to use computers effectively, and they have already transformed the world. For better or worse.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by TeMPOraL on Friday December 20, 2024 @05:40PM (#42475832)
> Software development seemed rapid and exciting until about Halo or Half Life 2, then it was shallow but shiny press releases for 15 years

The transition seems to map well to the point where engines got sophisticated enough, that highly dedicated high-schoolers couldn't keep up. Until then, people would routinely make hobby game engines (for games they'd then never finish) that were MVPs of what the game industry had a year or three earlier. I.e. close enough to compete on visuals with top photorealistic games of a given year - but more importantly, this was a time where you could do cool nerdy shit to impress your friends and community.

Then Unreal and Unity came out, with a business model that killed the motivation to write your own engine from scratch (except for purely educational purposes), we got more games, more progress, but the excitement was gone.

Maybe it's just a spurious correlation, but it seems to track with:

> and only became so again when OpenAI's InstructGPT was demonstrated.

Which is again, if you exclude training SOTA models - which is still mostly out of reach for anyone but a few entities on the planet - the time where anyone can do something cool that doesn't have a better market alternative yet, and any dedicated high-schooler can make truly impressive and useful work, outpacing commercial and academic work based on pure motivation and focus alone (it's easier when you're not being distracted by bullshit incentives like user growth or making VCs happy or churning out publications, farming citations).

It's, once again, a time of dreams, where anyone with some technical interest and a bit of free time can make the future happen in front of their eyes.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by ignoramous on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:33PM (#42474164)
> These comments are getting ridiculous.

Not really. Francois (co-creator of the ARC Prize) has this to say:

  The v1 version of the benchmark is starting to saturate. There were already signs of this in the Kaggle competition this year: an ensemble of all submissions would score 81% ... Early indications are that ARC-AGI-v2 will represent a complete reset of the state-of-the-art, and it will remain extremely difficult for o3. Meanwhile, a smart human or a small panel of average humans would still be able to score >95% ... This shows that it's still feasible to create unsaturated, interesting benchmarks that are easy for humans, yet impossible for AI, without involving specialist knowledge. We will have AGI when creating such evals becomes outright impossible.

  For me, the main open question is where the scaling bottlenecks for the techniques behind o3 are going to be. If human-annotated CoT data is a major bottleneck, for instance, capabilities would start to plateau quickly like they did for LLMs (until the next architecture). If the only bottleneck is test-time search, we will see continued scaling in the future.
https://x.com/fchollet/status/1870169764762710376 / https://ghostarchive.org/archive/Sqjbf
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by lawlessone on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:55PM (#42473758)
Failing the test may prove the AI is not intelligent. Passing the test doesn't necessarily prove it is.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by NitpickLawyer on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:02PM (#42473826)
Your comment reminds me of this quote from a book published in the 80s:

> There is a related “Theorem” about progress in AI: once some mental function is programmed, people soon cease to consider it as an essential ingredient of “real thinking”. The ineluctable core of intelligence is always in that next thing which hasn’t yet been programmed. This “Theorem” was first proposed to me by Larry Tesler, so I call it Tesler’s Theorem: “AI is whatever hasn’t been done yet.”

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:32PM (#42474158)
I've always disliked this argument. A person can do something well without devising a general solution to the thing. Devising a general solution to the thing is a step we're talking all the time with all sorts of things, but it doesn't invalidate the cool fact about intelligence: whatever it is that lets us do the thing well without the general solution is hard to pin down and hard to reproduce.

All that's invalidated each time is the idea that a general solution to that task requires a general solution to all tasks, or that a general solution to that task requires our special sauce. It's the idea that something able to to that task will also be able to do XYZ.

And yet people keep coming up with a new task that people point to saying, 'this is the one! there's no way something could solve this one without also being able to do XYZ!'

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by 8note on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:48PM (#42474867)
id consider that it doing the test at all, without proper compensation is a sign that it isnt intelligent
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by esafak on Saturday December 21, 2024 @09:46AM (#42479978)
Motivation is not hard to instill. Fortunately, they have chosen not to do so.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by jcims on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:07PM (#42473884)
I agree, it's like watching a meadow ablaze and dismissing it because it's not a 'real forest fire' yet. No it's not 'real AGI' yet, but *this is how we get there* and the pace is relentless, incredible and wholly overwhelming.

I've been blessed with grandchildren recently, a little boy that's 2 1/2 and just this past Saturday a granddaughter. Major events notwithstanding, the world will largely resemble today when they are teenagers, but the future is going to look very very very different. I can't even imagine what the capability and pervasiveness of it all will be like in ten years, when they are still just kids. For me as someone that's invested in their future I'm interested in all of the educational opportunities (technical, philosphical and self-awareness) but obviously am concerned about the potential for pernicious side effects.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by QuantumGood on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:07PM (#42473880)
"it will take over the world"

Calibrating to the current hype cycle has been challenging with AI pronouncements.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by philipkglass on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:10PM (#42473910)
If AI takes over white collar work that's still half of the world's labor needs untouched. There are some promising early demos of robotics plus AI. I also saw some promising demos of robotics 10 and 20 years that didn't reach mass adoption. I'd like to believe that by the time I reach old age the robots will be fully qualified replacements for plumbers and home health aides. Nothing I've seen so far makes me think that's especially likely.

I'd love more progress on tasks in the physical world, though. There are only a few paths for countries to deal with a growing ratio of old retired people to young workers:

1) Prioritize the young people at the expense of the old by e.g. cutting old age benefits (not especially likely since older voters have greater numbers and higher participation rates in elections)

2) Prioritize the old people at the expense of the young by raising the demands placed on young people (either directly as labor, e.g. nurses and aides, or indirectly through higher taxation)

3) Rapidly increase the population of young people through high fertility or immigration (the historically favored path, but eventually turns back into case 1 or 2 with an even larger numerical burden of older people)

4) Increase the health span of older people, so that they are more capable of independent self-care (a good idea, but difficult to achieve at scale, since most effective approaches require behavioral changes)

5) Decouple goods and services from labor, so that old people with diminished capabilities can get everything they need without forcing young people to labor for them

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by reducesuffering on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:51PM (#42474899)
> If AI takes over white collar work that's still half of the world's labor needs untouched.

I am continually baffled that people here throw this argument out and can't imagine the second-order effects. If white collar work is automated by AGI, all the RnD to solve robotics beyond imagination will happen in a flash. The top AI labs, the people smartest enough to make this technology, all are focusing on automating AGI Researchers and from there follows everything, obviously.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by brotchie on Friday December 20, 2024 @04:05PM (#42475019)
+1, the second and third order effects aren't trivial.

We're already seeing escape velocity in world modeling (see Google Veo2 and the latest Genesis LLM-based physics modeling framework).

The hardware for humanoid robots is 95% of the way there, the gap is control logic and intelligence, which is rapidly being closed.

Combine Veo2 world model, Genesis control planning, o3-style reasoning, and you're pretty much there with blue collar work automation.

We're only a few turns (<12 months) away from an existence proof of a humanoid robot that can watch a Youtube video and then replicate the task in a novel environment. May take longer than that to productionize.

It's really hard to think and project forward on an exponential. We've been on an exponential technology curve since the discovery of fire (at least). The 2nd order has kicked up over the last few years.

Not a rational approach to look back at robotics 2000-2022 and project that pace forwards. There's more happening every month than in decades past.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by philipkglass on Friday December 20, 2024 @04:19PM (#42475158)
I hope that you're both right. In 2004-2007 I saw self driving vehicles make lightning progress from the weak showing of the 2004 DARPA Grand Challenge to the impressive 2005 Grand Challenge winners and the even more impressive performance in the 2007 Urban Challenge. At the time I thought that full self driving vehicles would have a major commercial impact within 5 years. I expected truck and taxi drivers to be obsolete jobs in 10 years. 17 years after the Urban Challenge there are still millions of truck driver jobs in America and only Waymo seems to have a credible alternative to taxi drivers (even then, only in a small number of cities).
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by levocardia on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:10PM (#42473916)
I'm a little torn. ARC is really hard, and Francois is extremely smart and thoughtful about what intelligence means (the original "On the Measure of Intelligence" heavily influenced my ideas on how to think about AI).

On the other hand, there is a long, long history of AI achieving X but not being what we would casually refer to as "generally intelligent," then people deciding X isn't really intelligence; only when AI achieves Y will it be intelligence. Then AI achieves Y and...

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by Workaccount2 on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:30PM (#42474132)
You are telling a bunch of high earning individuals ($150k+) that they may be dramatically less valuable in the eat future. Of course the goal posts will keep being pushed back and the acknowledgements will never come.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by samvher on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:39PM (#42473592)
What kind of preparation are you suggesting?
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by johnny_canuck on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:56PM (#42473764)
Start learning a trade
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by whynotminot on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:07PM (#42474507)
I feel like that’s just kicking the can a little further down the road.

Our value proposition as humans in a capitalist society is an increasingly fragile thing.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by jorblumesea on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:07PM (#42473881)
that's going to work when every white collar worker goes into the trades /s

who is going to pay for residential electrical work lol and how much will you make if some guy from MIT is going to compete with you

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by sigmoid10 on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:46PM (#42473668)
This is far too broad to summarise here. You can read up on Sutskever or Bostrom or hell even Steven Hawking's ideas (going in order from really deep to general topics). We need to discuss everything - from education over jobs and taxes all the way to the principles of politics, our economy and even the military. If we fail at this as a society, we will at the very least create a world where the people who own capital today massively benefit and become rich beyond imagination (despite having contributed nothing to it), while the majority of the population will be unemployable and forever left behind. And the worst case probably falls somewhere between the end of human civilisation and the end of our species.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by astrange on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:34PM (#42474176)
One way you can tell this isn't realistic is that it's the plot of Atlas Shrugged. If your economic intuitions produce that book it means they are wrong.

> while the majority of the population will be unemployable and forever left behind

Productivity improvements increase employment. A superhuman AI is a productivity improvement.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by BriggyDwiggs42 on Saturday December 21, 2024 @08:28AM (#42479539)
No, Atlas shrugged explicitly believes that the wealthy beneficiaries are also the ones doing the innovation and the labor. Human/superhuman AI, if not self-directed but more like a tool, may massively benefit whoever happens to be lucky enough to be directing it when it arises. This does not imply that the lucky individual benefits on the basis of their competence.

The idea that productivity improvements increase unemployment is just fundamentally based on a different paradigm. There is absolutely no reason to think that when a machine exists that can do most things that a human can do as well if not better for less or equal cost, this will somehow increase human employment. In this scenario, using humans in any stage of the pipeline would be deeply inefficient and a stupid business decision.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by ben_w on Saturday December 21, 2024 @08:30AM (#42479551)
> Productivity improvements increase employment.

Sometimes: the productivity improvements from the combustion engine didn't increase employment of horses, it displaced them.

But even when productivity improvements do increase employment, it's not always to our advantage: the productivity improvements from Eli Whitney's cotton gin included huge economic growth and subsequent technological improvements… and also "led to increased demands for slave labor in the American South, reversing the economic decline that had occurred in the region during the late 18th century": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_gin

A superhuman AI that's only superhuman in specific domains? We've been seeing plenty of those, "computer" used to be a profession, and society can re-train but it still hurts the specific individuals who have to be unemployed (or start again as juniors) for the duration of that training.

A superhuman AI that's superhuman in every domain, but close enough to us in resource requirements that comparative advantage is still important and we can still do stuff, relegates us to whatever the AI is least good at.

A superhuman AI that's superhuman in every domain… as soon as someone invents mining, processing, and factory equipment that works on the moon or asteroids, that AI can control that equipment to make more of that equipment, and demand is quickly — O(log(n)) — saturated. I'm moderately confident that in this situation, the comparative advantage argument no longer works.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by kelseyfrog on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:48PM (#42473691)
What we're going to do is punt the questions and then convince ourselves the outcome was inevitable and if anything it's actually our fault.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by foobarqux on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:51PM (#42473711)
You should look up the terms necessary and sufficient.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by sigmoid10 on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:58PM (#42473784)
The real issue is people constantly making up new goalposts to keep their outdated world view somewhat aligned with what we are seeing. But these two things are drifting apart faster and faster. Even I got surprised by how quickly the ARC benchmark was blown out of the water, and I'm pretty bullish on AI.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by manmal on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:01PM (#42474447)
Are you like invested in LLM companies or something? You‘re pushing the agenda hard in this thread.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by foobarqux on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:11PM (#42473929)
The ARC maintainers have explicitly said that passing the test was necessary but not sufficient so I don't know where you come up with goal-post moving. (I personally don't like the test; it is more about "intuition" or in-built priors, not reasoning).
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by bluerooibos on Friday December 20, 2024 @04:59PM (#42475486)
The goalposts have moved, again and again.

It's gone from "well the output is incoherent" to "well it's just spitting out stuff it's already seen online" to "WELL...uhh IT CAN'T CREATE NEW/NOVEL KNOWLEDGE" in the space of 3-4 years.

It's incredible.

We already have AGI.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by amarcheschi on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:30PM (#42473478)
I just googled arc agi questions, and it looks like it is similar to an iq test with raven matrix. Similar as in you have some examples of images before and after, then an image before and you have to guess the after.

Could anyone confirm if this is the only kind of questions in the benchmark? If yes, how come there is such a direct connection to "oh this performs better than humans" when llm can be quite better than us in understanding and forecasting patterns? I'm just curious, not trying to stir up controversies

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by zebomon on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:34PM (#42473537)
It's a test on which (apparently until now) the vast majority of humans have far outperformed all machine systems.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by patrickhogan1 on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:36PM (#42473559)
But it’s not a test that directly shows general intelligence.

I am excited no less! This is huge improvement.

How does this do on SWE Bench?

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by og_kalu on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:41PM (#42473613)
>How does this do on SWE Bench?

71.7%

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by throwaway0123_5 on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:01PM (#42473815)
I've seen this figure on a few tech news websites and reddit but can't find an official source. If it was in the video I must have missed it, where is this coming from?
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by og_kalu on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:03PM (#42473836)
It was in the video. I don't know if Open ai have a page up yet
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by Eridrus on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:43PM (#42473635)
ML is quite good at understanding and forecasting patterns when you train on the data you want to forecast. LLMs manage to do so much because we just decided to train on everything on the internet and hope that it included everything we ever wanted to know.

This tries to create patterns that are intentionally not in the data and see if a system can generalize to them, which o3 super impressively does!

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by yunwal on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:14PM (#42473952)
ARC is in the dataset though? I mean I'm aware that there are new puzzles every day, but there's still a very specific format and set of skills required to solve it. I'd bet a decent amount of money that humans get better at ARC with practice, so it seems strange to suggest that AI wouldn't.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by ALittleLight on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:36PM (#42473552)
Yes, it's pretty similar to Raven's. The reason it is an interesting benchmark is because humans, even very young humans, "get" the test in the sense of understanding what it's asking and being able to do pretty well on it - but LLMs have really struggled with the benchmark in the past.

Chollett (one of the creators of the ARC benchmark) has been saying it proves LLMs can't reason. The test questions are supposed to be unique and not in the model's training set. The fact that LLMs struggled with the ARC challenge suggested (to Chollett and others) that models weren't "Truly reasoning" but rather just completing based on things they'd seen before - when the models were confronted with things they hadn't seen before, the novel visual patterns, they really struggled.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by Agentus on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:31PM (#42474145)
how about a extra large dose of your skepticism. is true intelligence really a thing and not just a vague human construct that tries to point out the mysterious unquantifiable combination of human behaviors?

humans clearly dont know what intelligence is unambiguously. theres also no divinely ordained objective dictionary that one can point at to reference what true intelligence is. a deep reflection of trying to pattern associate different human cognitive abilities indicates human cognitive capabilities arent that spectacular really.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by MVissers on Friday December 20, 2024 @10:28PM (#42477321)
My guess as an amateur neuroscientist is that what we call intelligence is just a 'measurement' of problem solving ability in different domains. Can be emotional, spatial, motor, reasoning, etc etc.

There is no special sauce in our brain. And we know how much compute there is in our brain– So we can roughly estimate when we'll hit that with these 'LLMs'.

Language is important in a human brain development as well. Kids who grow up deaf grow up vastly less intelligent unless they learn sign language. Language allow us to process complex concepts that our brain can learn to solve, without having to be in those complex environments.

So in hindsight, it's easy to see why it took a language model to be able to solve general tasks and other types deep learning networks couldn't.

I don't really see any limits on these models.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by Agentus on Friday December 20, 2024 @11:03PM (#42477470)
interesting point about language. but i wonder if people misattribute the reason why language is pivotal to human development. your points are valid. i see human behavior with regard to learning as 90% mimicry and 10% autonomous learning. most of what humans believe in is taken on faith and passed on from the tribe to the individual. rarely is it verified even partially let alone fully. humans simple dont have the time or processing power to do that. learning a thing without outside aid is vastly slower and more energy or brain intensive process than copy learning or learning through social institutions by dissemination. the stunted development from lack of language might come more from the less ability to access the collective learning process that language enables and or greatly enhances. i think a lot of learning even when combined with reasoning, deduction, etc really is at the mercy of brute force exploration to find a solution, which individuals are bad at but a society that collects random experienced “ah hah!” occurrences and passes them along is actually okay at.

i wonder if llms and language dont as so much allow us to process these complex environments but instead preload our brains to get a head start in processing those complex environments once we arrive in them. i think llms store compressed relationships of the world which obviously has information loss from a neural mapping of the world that isnt just language based. but that compressed relationships ie knowledge doesnt exactly backwardly map onto the world without it having a reverse key. like artificially learning about real world stuff in school abstractly and then going into the real world, it takes time for that abstraction to snap fit upon the real world.

could you further elaborate on what you mean by limits, because im happy to play contrarian on what i think i interpret you to be saying there.

also to your main point: what intelligence is. yeah you sort of hit up my thoughts on intelligence. its a combination of problem solving abilities in different domains. its like an amalgam of cognitive processes that achieve an amalgam of capabilities. while we can label alllllll that with a singular word, doesnt mean its all a singular process. seems like its a composite. moreover i think a big chunk of intelligence (but not all) is just brute forcing finding associations and then encoding those by some reflexive search/retrieval. a different part of intelligence of course is adaptibility and pattern finding.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by wslh on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:44PM (#42473650)
> My skeptical impression: it's complete hubris to conflate ARC or any benchmark with truly general intelligence.

But isn’t it interesting to have several benchmarks? Even if it’s not about passing the Turing test, benchmarks serve a purpose—similar to how we measure microprocessors or other devices. Intelligence may be more elusive, but even if we had an oracle delivering the ultimate intelligence benchmark, we'd still argue about its limitations. Perhaps we'd claim it doesn't measure creativity well, and we'd find ourselves revisiting the same debates about different kinds of intelligences.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by zebomon on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:46PM (#42473673)
It's certainly interesting. I'm just not convinced it's a test of general intelligence, and I don't think we'll know whether or not it is until it's been able to operate in the real world to the same degree that our general intelligence does.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by m3kw9 on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:44PM (#42473645)
From the statement where - this is a pretty tough test where AI scores low vs humans just last year, and AI can do it as good as humans may not be AGI which I agree, but it means something with all caps
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by manmal on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:14PM (#42474576)
Obviously, the multi billion dollar companies will try to satisfy the benchmarks they are not yet good in, as has always been the case.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by m3kw9 on Friday December 20, 2024 @10:19PM (#42477283)
A valid conspiracy theory but I’ve heard that one everystep of the way to this point
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by manmal on Saturday December 21, 2024 @08:16PM (#42483698)
What made you write this comment, I have a hard time understanding your point.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by FrustratedMonky on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:43PM (#42473640)
" it's complete hubris to conflate ARC or any benchmark with truly general intelligence."

Maybe it would help to include some human results in the AI ranking.

I think we'd find that Humans score lower?

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by zamadatix on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:02PM (#42473824)
I'm not sure it'd help what they are talking about much.

E.g. go back in time and imagine you didn't know there are ways for computers to be really good at performing integration yet as nobody had tried to make them. If someone asked you how to tell if something is intelligent "the ability to easily reason integrations or calculate extremely large multiplications in mathematics" might seem like a great test to make.

Skip forward to the modern era and it's blatantly obvious CASes like Mathematica on a modern computer range between "ridiculously better than the average person" to "impossibly better than the best person" depending on the test. At the same time, it becomes painfully obvious a CAS is wholly unrelated to general intelligence and just because your test might have been solvable by an AGI doesn't mean solving it proves something must have been an AGI.

So you come up with a new test... but you have the same problem as originally, it seems like anything non-human completely bombs and an AGI would do well... but how do you know the thing that solves it will have been an AGI for sure and not just another system clearly unrelated?

Short of a more clever way what GP is saying is the goalposts must keep being moved until it's not so obvious the thing isn't AGI, not that the average human gets a certain score which is worse.

.

All that aside, to answer your original question, in the presentation it was said the average human gets 85% and this was the first model to beat that. It was also said a second version is being worked on. They have some papers on their site about clear examples of why the current test clearly has a lot of testing unrelated to whether something is really AGI (a brute force method was shown to get >50% in 2020) so their aim is to create a new goalpost test and see how things shake out this time.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by og_kalu on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:39PM (#42474228)
Generality is not binary. It's a spectrum. And these models are already general in ways those things you've mentioned simply weren't.

What exactly is AGI to you ? If it's simply a generally intelligent machine then what are you waiting for ? What else is there to be sure of ? There's nothing narrow about these models.

Humans love to believe they're oh so special so much that there will always be debates on whether 'AGI' has arrived. If you are waiting for that then you'll be waiting a very long time, even if a machine arrives that takes us to the next frontier in science.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by Jensson on Friday December 20, 2024 @06:47PM (#42476283)
> There's nothing narrow about these models.

There is, they can't create new ideas like humanity can. AGI should be able to replace humanity in terms of thinking, otherwise it isn't general, you would just have a model specialized at reproducing thoughts and patterns human have thought before, it still can't recreate science from scratch etc like humanity did, meaning it can't do science properly.

Comparing an AI to a single individual is not how you measure AGI, if a group of humans perform better then you can't use the AI to replace that group of humans, and thus the AI isn't an AGI since it couldn't replace the group humans.

So for example, if a group of programmers write more reliable programs than the AI, then you can't replace that group of programmers with the AI, even if you duplicate that AI many times, since the AI isn't capable of reproducing that same level of reliability when ran in parallel. This is due to an AI being run in parallel is still just an AI, an ensemble model is still just an AI, so the model the AI has to beat is the human ensemble called humanity.

If we lower the bar a bit at least it has to beat 100 000 humans working together to make a job obsolete, since all the tutorials etc and all such things are made by other humans as well if you remove the job those would also disappear and the AI would have to do the work of all of those, so if it can't humans will still be needed.

Its possible you will be able to substitute part of those human ensembles with AI much sooner, but then we just call it a tool. (We also call narrow humans tools, it is fair)

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by og_kalu on Friday December 20, 2024 @07:19PM (#42476448)
I see these models create new ideas. At least at the standard humans are beholden to, so this just falls flat for me.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by Jensson on Friday December 20, 2024 @07:58PM (#42476644)
You don't just need to create an idea, you need to be able to create ideas that on average progress in a positive direction. Humans can evidently do that, AI can't, when AI work too much without human input you always end up with nonsense.

In order to write general program you need to have that skill. Every new code snipped needs to be evaluated by that system, whether it makes the codebase better or not. The lack of that ability is why you can't just loop an LLM today to replace programmers. It might be possible to automate it for specific programming tasks, but not general purpose programming.

Overcoming that hurdle is not something I think LLM ever can do, you need a totally different kind of architecture, not something that is trained to mimic but trained to reason. I don't know how to train something that can reason about noisy unstructured data, we will probably figure that out at some point but it probably wont be LLM as they are today.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by zamadatix on Saturday December 21, 2024 @10:10AM (#42480104)
I'm firmly in the "absolutely nothing special about human intelligence" camp so don't let dismissal of this as AGI fuel any misconceptions as to why I might think that.

As for what AGI is? Well, the lack of being able to describe that brings us full circle in this thread - I'll tell you for sure when I've seen it for the first time and have the power of hindsight to say what was missing. I think these models are the closest we've come but it feels like there is at least 1-2 more "4o->o1" style architecture changes where it's not necessarily about an increase in model fitting and more about a change in how the model comes to an output before we get to what I'd be willing to call AGI.

Who knows though, maybe some of those changes come along and it's closer but still missing some process to reason well enough to be AGI rather than a midway tool.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by FrustratedMonky on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:25PM (#42474084)
"Short of a more clever way what GP is saying is the goalposts must keep being moved until it's not so obvious the thing isn't AGI, not that the average human gets a certain score which is worse."

Best way of stating that I've heard.

The Goal Post must keep moving, until we understand enough what is happening.

I usually poo-poo the goal post moving, but this makes sense.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by rhomboid0 on Saturday December 21, 2024 @02:31PM (#42481649)
> So you come up with a new test... but you have the same problem as originally, it seems like anything non-human completely bombs and an AGI would do well... but how do you know the thing that solves it will have been an AGI for sure and not just another system clearly unrelated?

We should skip to the end and just define a task like "it's AGI if it can predict, with 100% accuracy the average human's next action in any situation". Anything that can do that is as good as AGI even if people manage to find a proxy for the task.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by kelseyfrog on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:47PM (#42473678)
> truly general intelligence

Indistinguishable from goalpost moving like you said, but also no true Scotsman.

I'm curious what would happen in your eyes if we misattributed general intelligence to an AI model? What are the consequences of a false positive and how would they affect your life?

It's really clear to me how intelligence fits into our reality as part of our social ontology. The attributes and their expression that each of us uses to ground our concept of the intelligent predicate differs wildly.

My personal theory is that we tend to have an exemplar-based dataset of intelligence, and each of us attempts to construct a parsimonious model of intelligence, but like all (mental) models, they can be useful but wrong. These models operate in a space where the trade off is completeness or consistency, and most folks, uncomfortable saying "I don't know" lean toward being complete in their specification rather than consistent. The unfortunate side-effect is that we're able to easily generate test data that highlights our model inconsistency - AI being a case in point.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday December 20, 2024 @02:52PM (#42474351)
> I'm curious what would happen in your eyes if we misattributed general intelligence to an AI model? What are the consequences of a false positive and how would they affect your life?

Rich people will think they can use the AI model instead of paying other people to do certain tasks.

The consequences could range from brilliant to utterly catastrophic, depending on the context and precise way in which this is done. But I'd lean toward the catastrophic.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by kelseyfrog on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:18PM (#42474615)
Any specifics? It's difficult to separate this from generalized concern.
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:34PM (#42474766)
someone wants a "personal assistant" and believes that the LLM has AGI ...

someone wants a "planning officer" and believes that the LLM has AGI ...

someone wants a "hiring consultant" and believes that the LLM has AGI ...

etc. etc.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by kelseyfrog on Friday December 20, 2024 @03:48PM (#42474865)
My apologies, but would it be possible to list the catastrophic consequences of these?
Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by Bjorkbat on Friday December 20, 2024 @05:02PM (#42475506)
I think it's still an interesting way to measure general intellience, it's just that o3 has demonstrated that you can actually achieve human performance on it by training it on the public training set and giving it ridiculous amounts of compute, which I imagine equates to ludicrously long chains-of-thought, and if I understand correctly more than one chain-of-thought per task (they mention sample sizes in the blog post, with o3-low using 6 and o3-high using 1024. Not sure if these are chains-of-thought per task or what).

Once you look at it that way it the approach really doesn't look like intelligence that's able to generalize to novel domains. It doesn't pass the sniff test. It looks a lot more like brute-forcing.

Which is probably why, in order to actually qualify for the leaderboard, they stipulate that you can't use more than $10k more of compute. Otherwise, it just sounds like brute-forcing.

Re:OpenAI O3 breakthrough high score on ARC-AGI-PUB by BriggyDwiggs42 on Saturday December 21, 2024 @08:57AM (#42479700)
I disagree. It’s vastly inefficient, but it is managing to actually solve these problems with a vast search space. If we extrapolate this approach into the future and assume that the search becomes better as the underlying model improves, and assume that the architecture grows more efficient, and assume that the type of parallel computing used here grows cheaper, isn’t it possible that this is a lot more than brute-forcing in terms of what it will achieve? In other words, is it maybe just a really ugly way of doing something functionally equivalent to reasoning?