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Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by throwaway2037 on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @10:00AM (#42184127)
You raise some very important points.

Specifically, this one:

    > browsers aren't really a self funding product
I feel the same. I also feel the same about a modern C library and C compiler (and C++, if you like). They are essential to build any modern system and applications. Yet, those are also (mostly) no longer self-funding products.

What do you think will happen if Google is forced to divest Chrome?

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by niutech on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @12:18PM (#42185845)
Browsers can be profitable, see Opera: https://investor.opera.com/news-releases/news-release-detail...

But not everything must be for-profit. Free/Libre/Open Source Software is a prime example. Projects like GNU, Linux, GNOME, KDE, WebKitGTK, LibreOffice are sustainable for a long time.

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by madeofpalk on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @12:32PM (#42186019)
I guess its easy to be a profitable company when you're getting into predatory payday loans! https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/opera-defends-its-android-a...
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by dismalaf on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @12:36PM (#42186063)
Every browser also gets a significant amount of money from Google. Mozilla is profitable too. But when Google is forced to stop paying browsers to use their search, it'll put Apple and Microsoft at an even wider advantage since they're the ones that can afford to push their own browsers at a loss...
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by niutech on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @02:24PM (#42187106)
Not every web browser gets money from Google - Brave, Vivaldi, Pale Moon, Konqueror, Epiphany, Ladybird, Servo, to name a few.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by madeofpalk on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @03:04PM (#42187520)
Do Brave and Vivaldi fund actual browser (engine) development, or are they just using open source Chromium (as they're able to)?

Konqueror and Epiphany are Webkit based, so presumably benefit from Apple's funding of Webkit.

Ladybird and Servo aren't real browsers yet, and have so far been funded by grants which doesn't seem to be long-term stable.

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by dismalaf on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @03:03PM (#42187503)
Vivaldi's business model is primarily revenue from deals with search providers. they don't exclusively get money from Google, they get money from all their search partners, including Google.

Brave is into crypto scams and advertising scams, so I guess you're right there. Their revenue is also tiny.

The rest aren't what I'd call "real" browsers, most don't have the same level of functionality and compatibility as Chrome, Firefox, Safari, Edge... Servo for example is literally just the rendering engine Firefox gave up on.

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by ryho on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @03:22PM (#42187690)
Brave is just Chrome in a trench coat. I am pretty sure all the others are based on something else or are not actually a fully robust browser.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by niutech on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @05:23AM (#42192495)
Konqueror, Servo and Ladybird have their own web engine.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by dismalaf on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @02:44PM (#42197402)
Servo isn't a web browser, its just an engine. Ladybird isn't close to usable and Konqueror well, feels like 2005...
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by niutech on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @03:59PM (#42198047)
Technically Servoshell is a browser bundled with Servo engine.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by willywanker on Thursday November 21, 2024 @12:36AM (#42201447)
What's wrong with 2005 where desktop user experience goes? Why is the new sexy only 'let us remove all user choice and customization, throw decades of stable desktop UI features like menu bars, tooltips, keyboard shortcuts and mouse optimized icons, simply stretch a mobile touchscreen onto a widescreen display with gigantic fonts and dumbed down icons and call it a day'?
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by jenadine on Thursday November 21, 2024 @01:31AM (#42201705)
Because you can only browse pages from 2005 with KHTML (Standards evolves and KHTML hasn't been kept up to date in that respect)
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by BrendanEich on Friday November 22, 2024 @09:51PM (#42218862)
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by est31 on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @07:50PM (#42189721)
Opera is not a browser at this point but a chrome skin. Yes, there is some engineering still going on, but they don't run as much engineering as would be needed to build world-class browser software.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by niutech on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @05:27AM (#42192526)
Opera is the fifth contributor to Chromium: https://www.igalia.com/assets/i/news/ranking-chromium.svg
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by wongarsu on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @11:24AM (#42185192)
Netscape used to cost the equivalent of $100 inflation-adjusted dollars and was only forced to go free to compete with Internet Explorer. Now the genie can't be put back in the bottle, and anyone trying to sell you a browser would become irrelevant the same way Delphi's paid compiler lost out to free C compilers.

Maybe you could carve out a niche that's willing to pay, the same way C# did before dotnet core. But for a mass product the best-case scenario would be something similar to today's Opera.

However what it would do is open up the market to competition. Right now Google is spending a lot on Chrome development and Chrome advertisement. Opera and Edge both have given up on their own engines because they couldn't keep pace with Chrome development, and Firefox kept its engine but can't compete with Chrome's ad spend. If Chrome had to compete on a more even playing field there would be more room for diversity and competition. That could be a net positive, even if it makes Chrome worse.

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by scarface_74 on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @03:04PM (#42187518)
There was never a time that you as individual couldn’t use an ftp client back in the day and download a free version of Netscape.

So who would buy “Chrome” when they can get Chromium for free and fork it?

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by redblacktree on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @03:12PM (#42187598)
I am confused by this comment too. I don't recall ever being asked to pay for Netscape. (not that I would have, at 12ish)
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by throwaway888889 on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @02:13AM (#42191460)
I remember it was originally paid for (i vaguely remember seeing an ad in a pc mag) but by 1996 I got it for free
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by gbeeson on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @11:28AM (#42195529)
I clearly remember it being boxed and on a shelf along side Internet Explorer for like $40 at CompUSA. Nearly an entire isle for browsers.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by scarface_74 on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @06:29PM (#42199252)
Yes, that was for people who didn’t know how to connect to Netscape’s official FTP server and download it directly
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by scsh on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @12:56PM (#42196507)
It was never required to pay for it. As was common with software back then, the free download was a fully featured "evaluation" version denoted by an "N" appended to the version number. That didn't last long though and it just stayed free.

There was a "Gold" version they sold at retail for some time that had a WYSIWYG editor in it, until they made it standard as part of the Communicator suite.

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by askvictor on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @03:45PM (#42187906)
Windows is a paid-for product; either enterprise licenses or via the manufacturer. Yet few people (mainly those who build PCs themselves) realise this.

What if the browser had a similar model? The manufacturer pays a certain 'browser development fee' into escrow, then on first boot, the copmuter shows a browser ballot, which gets set as the default, and the fee goes to the chosen browser developer? There's probably a bunch of problems with this approach, and, at least initially, wouldn't break the monoculture, but it might be a good starting point for how to fund browser development.

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by criddell on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @10:11AM (#42184249)
> What do you think will happen if Google is forced to divest Chrome?

The new Chrome company will struggle for a year or two then Apple will try to buy it but lose out after Oracle submits a higher bid.

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by wongarsu on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @12:04PM (#42185645)
Oracle Chrome would remain free at first, but one year down the road all new versions would become free for home use but $50 per seat yearly for commercial use, with a clause that allows Oracle to enter your offices to audit your compliance at any time
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by Suppafly on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @11:45AM (#42185437)
>The new Chrome company will struggle for a year or two then Apple will try to buy it but lose out after Oracle submits a higher bid.

We're in the worst timeline, so I could see that happening.

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by gambiting on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @03:05PM (#42187536)
Elon buys it to "preserve free speech everywhere" then turns it into the same swamp twitter is. So you know, could be worse.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by polishTar on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @10:32AM (#42184575)
Oracle Chrome, Ha! I wouldn't even be surprised if that's exactly how it plays out.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by fragmede on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @11:29AM (#42185260)
I'm sure Meta is doing some math on what they can afford.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by docmars on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @10:43AM (#42184713)
God help us, haha!
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by lenerdenator on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @01:02PM (#42186376)
If the choice is no internet, forever, or giving Oracle money, I'm gonna live in 1990 from here on out.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by hypercube33 on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @02:10PM (#42186997)
Return to Konqueror Browser from KDE - the grandfather webkit browser.

In all seriousness, I kind of wish that someone could build a sustained non profit like apache to take over chromium - if Google or Microsoft or others want to custom roll their own flavor fine, but Google being for-profit has been making decisions against the best for everyone browsing the web (such as the new plugin stuff around adblocks) (conflict of interest)

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by boppo1 on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @02:47PM (#42187354)
What did Oracle do?
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by quickthrowman on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @04:52PM (#42188490)
The Chief Legal Officer is probably the most powerful person at Oracle after Larry the Lawnmower.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by lenerdenator on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @09:33PM (#42190335)
Besides gutting my former employer so that Larry can have even more money than he could hope to spend in a human lifetime?
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by niutech on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @05:45AM (#42192639)
Did you know that Oracle used to have its own web browser PowerBrowser? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_PowerBrowser
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by more_corn on Thursday November 21, 2024 @11:11AM (#42205762)
This sounds surprisingly likely.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by baq on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @12:05PM (#42185662)
> They are essential to build any modern system and applications. Yet, those are also (mostly) no longer self-funding products.

so, an utility.

create a (partially?) state-owned steward with a legislated mandate to develop the browser, self-funded via extra tax on digital goods and services.

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by changoplatanero on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @12:15PM (#42185808)
Currently, talented engineers flock to google to contribute their skills to making the best web browser. My concern for a publicly owned utility is that the top talent won't want to work there.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by astrange on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @12:42PM (#42186138)
Many of them have left Google (and competitors) and work for a consulting firm called Igalia that contributes to all browser engines.

https://www.igalia.com/technology/browsers

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by kergonath on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @01:43PM (#42186776)
> Currently, talented engineers flock to google to contribute their skills to making the best web browser.

I don’t think these engineers have the right incentives, and their interest is not aligned with mine. I don’t really care what they do to Chrome and their efforts benefit me only indirectly. I am also not convinced by the "best browser" thing, even using it every day on my office computer. So, meh. I don’t care too much either way but I won’t lose anything if Google has to spin it off.

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by neodymiumphish on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @06:08PM (#42189042)
Agreed! I was on Arc for a while and really enjoyed it (obviously Chromium-based), but have found that both Orion and Safari are phenomenal choices! I don’t see any reason to switch back, although I will admit that I keep Chrome around in case I need/want to cast content to a Chromecast-enabled device (until I find an inexpensive alternative to that).
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by eqvinox on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @10:15AM (#42194591)
This may have been the case 10 years ago; it isn't anymore. The writing's on the wall on Google going downhill pretty fast.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by marcyb5st on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @12:21PM (#42185882)
The way governments fuck up basically anything (with very few exceptions) IT related I would say no. Personal example: my name is Marcello and I had troubles applying for a permit online because names can't contain musical instruments (Cello in this case).

Create a consortium or interested private entities but let's not give such an important piece of technology to governments where meritocracy is non-existent (also based on personal experiences).

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by baq on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @01:01PM (#42186360)
I generally agree, I don't want this to be government-owned but since it can't be funded privately and is of great public value an utility-like contract would be in order. I don't see it happening with at least initially a stake from the government (maybe I'm wrong, will gladly be!)
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by RHSeeger on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @02:48PM (#42187368)
My experience is that utilities don't innovate at all. In fact, the do their best to get the government to give them funding for innovation ("you know, because we love people") and then just... don't actually do what the money was for.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by lenerdenator on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @01:05PM (#42186403)
> The way governments fuck up basically anything (with very few exceptions) IT related I would say no.

Just wait until you have to justify IT expenditure to a for-profit corporation that isn't solely focused on technology.

Government screws things up because it's (by design) slow. Business screws things up because f*ck your needs, we need to get a check to a retiree who never even worked here.

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by Ferret7446 on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @03:19AM (#42191780)
Free market competition sorts that out right quick.

Either your business is spending the economically optimal amount on IT or you're running at a net deficit disadvantage.

Note that the economically optimal amount may not be what people want or expect, which is why in general we rely on (mostly) free markets and not centralized human planning like the USSR.

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by lenerdenator on Wednesday November 20, 2024 @01:19PM (#42196693)
Free market competition does not sort it out right quick, particularly in an economy where capital has consolidated as much value as they have through an oligopoly.

The problem with this is that people think that the net deficit disadvantage matters.

It doesn't. Companies are now owned by shareholders that are set up to not have to care about that company within a fairly short period of time. They're not owned by people who have any pride in "winning" that market or an existential threat to their finances if things go poorly. Most publicly-traded shares of companies on stock exchanges are owned by pension and retirement funds, and the person at the head of that fund has exactly one job: make money for the members. If that means gutting the company they hold shares in like a fish, while simultaneously setting up to exit the position, that's what that means. The company's net deficit disadvantage is not the fund's net deficit disadvantage, and that's by design.

Now, that has massive economic consequences for the people who are at the company (and, y'know, actually do the work), and for customers who relied on the product or service, but the fund has made money. Whether its members spend it on anything that will create more economic value over time is another matter. For example, fast-rising homeowners insurance rates in places in the Southeastern US that have been popular with retirees over the last few decades would indicate that they aren't spending it wisely, but, hey.

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by scarface_74 on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @03:09PM (#42187569)
You really trust the government to fund a browser without content interference?
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by dboreham on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @03:27PM (#42187737)
Quick note that the first browsers were government funded.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by scarface_74 on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @08:19PM (#42189895)
And at the time, so few people were on the internet, the government didn’t care about it.

But even then one party in the government wanted to defund PBS for being too liberal

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by rileyphone on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @01:26PM (#42186613)
Firefox has made Mozilla billions over its lifetime by selling the default search engine rights to Yahoo and Google. Chrome, having a much greater user base, would demand a correspondingly higher fee (probably around $10b a year). Now, the other problem is there is no other search engine to compete with Google at that level, but that might change with independence of Chrome.
Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by nolist_policy on Tuesday November 19, 2024 @02:02PM (#42186938)
Google's payment to be the default search engine was ruled anti-competitive though.

https://fortune.com/2024/08/05/mozilla-firefox-biggest-poten...

Re:DOJ will push Google to sell off Chrome by robertlagrant on Thursday November 21, 2024 @07:23AM (#42203626)
Great, but now what? What should fund Mozilla?