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Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by LukaszWiktor on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @03:47AM (#42124111)
Very few Android phones have a pressure sensor.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by plantain on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @04:14AM (#42124325)
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by LukaszWiktor on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @04:53AM (#42124570)
> Your search returned 653 results.

When you remove the filter, it returns 12177 results. So only ~5% of phone models include a barometer.

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by yccs27 on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @05:34AM (#42124828)
That's all phones ever, not current/popular models. When you restrict it to the last 10 years, you get about 12%, and of the 70 most popular models almost a quarter are equipped with a barometer.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by antonkochubey on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @06:13AM (#42125008)
Huh? I restricted it to 2023-now, and got 146 results. 80 for 2024 only.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by jrvieira on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @06:37AM (#42125160)
146 in how many? 80 in how many?
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by nielsole on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @06:53AM (#42125255)
80/557

146/1109

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by jrvieira on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @07:04AM (#42125313)
that's above 12% on both.

now correct it for number of sold phones each (estimated by looking at the 70 most popular models) and we'll get why they said 1/4.

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by lolinder on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @09:40AM (#42126448)
For an app as popular as Transit this is a purely academic exercise—25% of the most popular models is way too low to be worth building their detection around, even if they could assume that all of their customers use the most popular models (which they obviously can't).
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by stavros on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @10:20AM (#42126777)
25% of popular models doesn't mean 25% of phones currently in circulation. If the iPhone has a barometer (which it does), that's already a huge share of phones out there.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by hluska on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @11:02AM (#42127204)
The conversation was about Android.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by azinman2 on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @11:36AM (#42127548)
But the point stands, it’s about the distribution of phones not how many models support it.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by lolinder on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @01:27PM (#42128603)
I'm in favor of Transit trying to reach more than 25% of the most popular phone models even if doing so would get them 75% of the population.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by michaelmior on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @11:07AM (#42127245)
It may be too low, but I'd imagine the app could also look for other Transit users nearby and as long as one of them has the appropriate sensor, this might be sufficient. Probably still not something you want to rely on since it would be pretty annoying to have a feature not work when you're alone on a train.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by cbhl on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @12:36PM (#42128155)
> the app could also look for other Transit users nearby

That seems unlikely in an environment with no cellular / wifi signal. Theoretically possible, but expensive for battery and probably disallowed by the OS.

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by thruway516 on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @12:39PM (#42128187)
Does the current version of their app run on 25% of the most popular models? This update runs a classifier on your phone. I imagine that would be no less restrictive than the barometer requirement.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by lolinder on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @01:28PM (#42128607)
Most classifiers are nowhere near as heavy as the LLMs that are trending right now. The article doesn't specify, but I would be surprised if the resource requirements are especially onerous.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by douglaskayama on Friday November 15, 2024 @02:35AM (#42144679)
This GSM Arena search brought a Galaxy S25 Ultra in the results, an unannounced phone.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by rossant on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @04:06AM (#42124260)
Maybe premium Android smartphones do? My Galaxy S24+ seems to have one.

Edit: at least the excellent Physics Toolbox Sensor Suite gives me a barometer signal indicating 102570 Pa right now.

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by LukaszWiktor on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @05:02AM (#42124631)
True. Flagship smartphones, and some rugged models do have a pressure sensor.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by sliken on Thursday November 14, 2024 @12:24AM (#42133357)
I was pleasantly surprised to note my pixel 9 has a barometer, 81,500 or so right now, I'm at 6,000 feet of elevation.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by fragmede on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @04:15AM (#42124330)
you wouldn't need all of them to have it, just enough so that wifi beacons in-between train stations could get added to the bssid - gps coordinate map. Though if the vendors wanted work with you, you could just tell them wifi bssid and the gps coordinates of them and the rest of it would just work.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by Normal_gaussian on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @04:17AM (#42124342)
There are unlikely to be wifi basestations detectable in between stations, because these are underground trains.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by _kb on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @05:50AM (#42124905)
You don’t need fixed base stations. Just infra on the train that rolls bassid based on location data the train already has. This would silently hook into native location services already on devices without additional sensing or models trained on other sensor data.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by ssl-3 on Thursday November 14, 2024 @07:37AM (#42135626)
That's... actually pretty brilliant.

I wonder if it'll Just Work [eventually, given enough repetitions], or if the crowd-sourced network location algorithms will filter it because it is dynamic.

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by fragmede on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @04:19AM (#42124356)
unless installed by the system operator, which is why they'd know the gps coordinates for them

I'd have to have missed the title of the post, not read the post itself, not read GP's comment, not thought about why there'd be a pressure change, to have missed that particular detail. I appreciate you trying to be helpful though. :)

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by bluGill on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @08:57AM (#42126134)
There should be - everyone on the train wants connectivity. Even if there is wifi on the train, that wifi needs something to connect to.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by oniony on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @04:38AM (#42124477)
I believe many do because it's used to fix GPS data when at different elevations, if I remember correctly.

https://nextnav.com/why-phones-have-barometers/

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by telgareith on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @08:36AM (#42125946)
Maybe it'll help achieve a lock faster- but theres nothing else needed for GPS besides GPS. The military really doesn't like dependencies.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by traverseda on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @08:59AM (#42126149)
Not a faster lock, air pressure is actually more accurate on the z axis for the most part. GPS is not great at height, and including an extremely accurate barometer is a big help.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by umeshunni on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @10:29AM (#42126860)
Why is GPS not great at height? If you know your location is x,y and you have an elevation map, you can map x,y to an altitude z, right?
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @10:41AM (#42126981)
I know nothing about this, but I imagine two people at the same latitude and longitude could be at different altitudes.

A trivial example would be people on different floors of a skyscraper—although I suppose gps works poorly indoors anyway. Still, even outdoors there are peaks and crevices, and on a steep slope a very trivial change in lat/lon could lead to a major change in altitude.

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by ScottEvtuch on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @12:46PM (#42128254)
I would imagine it's because your distance to the satellites changes more when you move along the ground than when you move up and down the same amount.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by avidiax on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @01:28PM (#42128610)
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by ianburrell on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @01:06PM (#42128424)
One problem is that using position to get altitude would require a detailed elevation map and that would use a lot of storage space or require internet.

But elevation maps are not detailed enough and position is not accurate enough to get accurate elevation. Think about standing on trail along steep slope. The position not being that accurate is fine since you know you are on trail. But altitude could vary wildly going up or down slope, or even up or down trail. It is probably similar to GPS vertical accuracy, but were going for more accuracy that barometer provides.

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by bobmcnamara on Thursday November 14, 2024 @10:35AM (#42137202)
The maps are only used when resolving a 3 bird fix. As soon as you lock a fourth bird you can solve 3D directly rather than leveraging an onboard spheroid. Many receivers refer to a three bird fix as a 2D fix for that reason.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by bobmcnamara on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @01:15PM (#42128497)
> Why is GPS not great at height?

Because the SATs only give you a pseudorange distance between you and the sat, so each say is most accurate solving for distance to/from that sat, and much less helpful resolving angle to the sat.

With a clear SkyView, around just under half of the sats are hidden by the earth.

This means that you get a full 360 degrees of data that can be near the horizon helping resolve lat/long.

But only about half of that sky is helpful for altitude. The birds you can't hear directly below the earth would be the most helpful for improving the altitude fix if you could hear them.

Baro is handy because you can take the absolute altitude from GPS as a low frequency baseline and use the baro for high frequency changes. Then when GPS says we teleported +200 feet when a new sat comes into view, we can temper that that with baro information.

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by sgarman on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @01:53PM (#42128783)
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by sliken on Thursday November 14, 2024 @12:18AM (#42133333)
Sure, assuming you are not in a building, balloon, helicopter, plane, drone, etc. Not to mention interesting topology like a cliff where an error in long/last of even a single foot could mean your altitude would vary by 1000 feet.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by dorfsmay on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @10:39AM (#42126963)
Do you then use the internet to find the local pressure, or only use it to calculate changes in altitude?
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by traverseda on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @05:04PM (#42130588)
It's one factor in estimating altitude you feed into an extended kalman filter. If the GPS altitude is holding steady but there's a sudden jump in pressure that's probably a storm front not indicative of motion.

You also probably want an accelerometer.

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by CamperBob2 on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @10:58AM (#42127164)
GPS itself is one hell of a dependency. What the military (and pretty much everyone else) wants right now is redundancy.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by rightbyte on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @09:51AM (#42126533)
I did an IMU once. You get way better and faster Z position with barometer than with only GPS.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by bigiain on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @06:02PM (#42131187)
Inexpensive barometric sensors are _remarkably_ sensitive too. Like enough precision to detect less than 10cm or 4" changes in height/altitude.

Note that's "sensitive", not "precise". The atmosphere changes pressure with the weather, so you don't get accurate absolute altitude - at least not without knowing the local "pressure altitude". Barometric pressure can vary in a way that represents plus or minus 300 or 400m of altitude, and can swing between high and low fairly rapidly in extreme weather events.

But over short timeframe the change in barometric altitude can be very useful. Glider pilots (including paragliders and even RC gliders) often use very sensitive barometric pressure sensors to detect when they're in rising to sinking air, down at the few meters per minute range of sensitivity.

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by BurningFrog on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @12:05PM (#42127844)
GPS already gives you altitude in addition to longitude and latitude, so I don't understand what the air pressure adds.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by tqi on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @12:16PM (#42127954)
Vertical error for GPS is about 2X to 3X more than horizontal error[1], so the barometer helps correct that.

[1] https://www.nstb.tc.faa.gov/reports/2020_Q4_SPS_PAN_v2.0.pdf...

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by maven29 on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @05:28AM (#42124790)
Just like the heart rate monitor, this was also moved into smartwatches for optimizing revenue from those who truly need it.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by resoluteteeth on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @07:46AM (#42125584)
Are you saying that smartphones used to have heart rate monitors but they were removed to force people to buy smart watches?
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by connicpu on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @08:10AM (#42125754)
I forget which generation it was now, but many years ago I had a Samsung Galaxy phone that had a sensor that could measure your heart rate if you put your finger over it
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by superhuzza on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @08:37AM (#42125962)
The Galaxy S7 definitely had this feature.

The problem is, it was basically useless. The main use case for heart rate monitoring is continuously throughout the day/night, or during exercise. A watch is very good at this. An optical sensor on the back of your phone is not.

Periodically checking your heart rate by holding your phone in a specific way is not a useful feature for that many people.

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by 6510 on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @09:07AM (#42126219)
For me, just having something that you can check 1 time per year is much better than nothing. The anecdote: I was working two heavy manual labor jobs 7 days per week and felt absolutely fantastic, glowing with power. Turned out the heart rate at rest was 180 lmao. Like a rabbit. Took a few days off, it dropped below 70.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by idiot900 on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @09:24AM (#42126321)
If your heart rate at rest is truly 180, you have an arrhythmia and need to see a doctor.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by 6510 on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @10:26AM (#42126838)
It should decline some 60 sec after physical activity. I think I measured after 10-15 minutes. Fatigue, dehydration, lack of sleep, a diet with lots of coffee. I just added those to the todo list. I went home to sleep (and confiscated the heart rate meter), the next morning it was around 100 bpm which is still terrible shape. Over the day it sunk to 80, over the 2nd day to 70, 3rd a bit lower. Back at work it would barely elevate. The moral of the story: Don't work out 11 hours per day for 6 months straight.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by chucksmash on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @12:45PM (#42128245)
+1. If a phone has a stopwatch, you can get your bpm at a given moment with a finger and a multiplication (or patience). Given the limited real estate on a mobile phone it's crazy to devote any space for something so trivial.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by telgareith on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @08:48AM (#42126059)
It's not a separate sensor- 30fps on an iPhone was more than enough.

Turns out, when you have a known luminance, white balance, and frame-rate... the DSP to grab heart rate from a finger is trivial.

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by ssl-3 on Thursday November 14, 2024 @07:27AM (#42135567)
Cameras can do it, yes.

But on the Galaxy S7 that I think is being alluded to here, it was definitely a separate sensor -- a MAX86902, IIRC.

Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by astrange on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @07:57AM (#42125671)
Any phone that can record 120fps video has a heart rate monitor, if you can calibrate it.
Re:No GPS required: our app can now locate underground trains by adastra22 on Wednesday November 13, 2024 @02:31PM (#42129102)
I’m pretty sure every Android phone does. It’s called a microphone. It doesn’t give absolute pressure values, but that is not needed for this use case.