Not all dogs are motivated by food.

Our high energy, water-loving, labradoodle is only motivated by one thing: frisbee.

IME all are...

Labradoodles are loopy, like most of the bred-for-instagram breeds. Got to expect the abnormal

Pretty much every dog trainer in the world will tell you different dogs are motivated to different degrees by different things. Very weird point to argue on.

I have two purebred poodles (not bred for Instagram) and one is highly motivated by food, the other will decline treats pretty often, even treats we know he really loves. This is not super atypical of poodles.

And to put another layer of complication on your dismissal of other people's challenges training dogs: the not food-motivated one is way easier to train.

Some generations of labradoodles are hypoallergenic from my understanding.

There are no hypoallergenic dogs. There are degrees to which dogs shed, but it's not specific to any one breed and can vary wildly.

https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/hypoallergenic-dogs/

That's just false reasoning for buying an Instagram fad dog, save admitting they are buying a fashion accesory

(Yes I'm annoyed by those who buy a dog to be an accessory and don't bother training them. There are loads of them where I live and they are annoying at best and menaces at worst)

Well, I have a lab that is not. She is however motivated by fetch. She is not very smart as labs go, but she would move a mountain for you if it means one more toss of a toy. If you have a toy food does not exist. She will still do things for treats, but will also just decide not to if it suits her :)

I have a xolo that has been diagnosed anorectic by a veterinary. I'll agree it's not common tho, I didn't know dogs could get such a diagnosis until my own dog got it

I have a German Shepherd who isn’t toy motivated, but will climb mountains to play tug.

Don’t assume your experience is universal, especially when there’s a lot of people telling you it isn’t.

Neither did I, until I got this lovely idiot who's probably bipolar and probably on the spectrum. They're motivated by food, yes; and we're motivated by unconditional love.

Which is depressingly animalistic.

How so? Humans are very much the same way in many years, particularly as children.

Food is a primary reinforcers for all species. Neither humans nor dogs are special in that respect. I don't see why anyone should find that depressing.

Spend some time training dogs and you'll also find both that food motivation can vary quite a bit (some dogs are more interested in toys than food, for instance) and also that it's quite possible to train dogs without always relying on a food reward.

Generally the deeper you go with understanding and training dog behavior, the more you realize how the same learning theory that informs scientific dog training also describes human behavior. (Imo it also reveals deficiencies in thinking in terms of learning theory/behaviorism alone; idk how you could work closely with animals and seriously believe they lack cognition.)

We are also the same. We are out for food, the rest is just talk..

What do you mean by that?

Of course sharing food is a way to build social bonding and positively motivate social conformance. It is with people too, which is why it's so natural for us to carry it over to our relationship with dogs.

How or why is that depressing?

It's good that we crave what helps us thrive and that we can recognize who makes it easy for us to have more, and there's a beautiful elegance to that fact that so many creatures share the trait, across such diverse lineages as birds, reptiles, fish, arthropods, mammals, etc

Isn't that inspiring, rather than depressing?

I ride a lot of bike. I love it when dog owners see someone approaching on a bike, tell their dog to sit and give him a treat. These dogs will then stop when they notice a bike approaching while the owner is distracted. I am always so grateful that I say thank you to the owners.

Then there are those who just don't care to train their dogs.

> Then there are those who just don't care to train their dogs.

There is a worse option.

The thin extending dog lead at maximum extension while walking the dog in twilight on a cycle path. What could go wrong?

I tripped over one of these in central London where it abruptly started raining heavily and the owner ran off in one direction while the dog went in another.

Got some doubts about the value of those leads in general; surely it just means the dog has no gauge at all in how far they can go in any direction?

I assumed someone was doing this to me on a sunset run along a paved path. Human standing on one side of the path, small dog in the grass on the side, so I cut my running closer to the dog.

It wasn't a dog, it was a skunk. Fortunately it didn't seem threatened and just waddled away.

Most dogs are, yes. I train dogs at an animal shelter, and I can tell you that not all dogs are motivated by food. Some will just turn their nose up at even the tastiest of treats. Some of those dogs might rather have a pet on the head or some praise. A rare few don’t seem motivated by much of anything.

But for the 80% case, yeah, grab some string cheese and a clicker.[0]

[0] https://www.rover.com/blog/clicker-training-dogs/

Perhaps overfed? Have owned dogs all my life, also trained 4 rescues, and various friends' dogs and never yet met one who can resist chicken. Relativity small sample size of about 20 dogs I admit

Perhaps all yours were underfed?

My dog is far more motivated by human attention than food. There’s only one food that he’ll do anything for - freeze dried chicken hearts.

Depends on the dog. I’ve trained two puppies this year.

The first one was stupid easy to train. Food motivated and could be refocused in every situation with food. Picked up commands quickly. Would do training basically any time of day.

Second dog just stares at me if she doesn’t want to be trained or feels the task is too hard. When she gets distracted, it doesn’t matter how high of a reward I give, she won’t take it if she doesn’t want it.

Yes the idea that all dogs are equal and it’s just a mattering of training is a very harmful idea. People get soft about it though because they hit some cute/fuzzy dopamine thing in their brain and don’t take that reality seriously.

This is essentially the nature vs nurture debate, but for dogs.

One trick that is popular in my family is to rest a treat on the tip of a dog's nose, tell them to wait, count silently for a few seconds, and then give them permission to eat it. (My sister's dog does it every day after his breakfast, and I recently had the pleasure of asking him to perform this trick for me when they visited. :)

Anyhow, my favorite of the dogs from my childhood was generally uninterested in what certain people wanted from her. She was more motivated by praise and the sheer joy of teamwork with her favorite people than by food.

So one day my mom (not one of this dog's favorites, through no fault of her own) sets her up to do the trick: she asks the dog to sit and places a treat on the dog's nose. The dog slowly decides she'd actually rather do something else. She tilts her head down towards the ground, the treat slides off her nose, and she leisurely walks away.

Yeah that is why I think dogs that don’t learn tricks are the smart ones not the ones who obey on the first ask.

But humans want obedient dogs not ones that have their own opinions :)

They're animals, you want predictable behavior (as much as is possible - because they're animals).

Eh, I had a Scottish terrier that was incredibly smart, learned every trick on practically the first attempt, then would just not do them again after mastery.

Independent, great explorer and hiker, hated clear objects like she had an intifada against them and never got into trouble or destroyed stuff.

She was a good dude and would have been less fun if she was more obsequious or eager to please and predictable.

I think both very adoring dogs and rather challenging or independent-minded dogs can be really precious in their own ways.

My mom had a boxer who was absolutely obsessed with her for his entire life. He was so eager to please her that she would often cue certain (benign) behaviors by accident, because he was always watching her to see if there was anything for him to do with her. He was so invested in figuring out what she wanted and in impressing her that the gentlest scolding would crush him— it could easily ruin a whole training session.

The things my mom (who is legally blind) got that dog to do were amazing. She (just a hobbyist) did dog sports with him (competitive obedience and rally) and got titles in advanced and intermediate levels. He did some 'American trick dog' stuff where he would do really gimmicky but pretty cute and impressive multi-step tricks, like going outside to fetch the mail and bring it back, or hopping into a suitcase, closing it on his own head, and lying down. He had some routine tricks that were pretty cool, like searching the house to collect all of his toys and put them away. He worked as a therapy dog in hospitals, where he was especially beloved by children, who were invariably amused and pleased that they could get a big, strange dog to do many tricks for them. He'd also do some little assistance things for my mom, like pick things up off the floor (if asked) so she didn't have to get down on her hands and knees and pat around to find them.

Unrelated to his training career, I'll never forget his watchfulness and sweetness toward my tiny old chihuahua. As you likely know, boxers can be extremely energetic dogs, but he was a calm soul as far as boxers go. While they didn't meet often, he had a special connection with my little < 5lbs Chihuahua: she trusted his gentle nature and he sympathized with her frustration with the antics of my mom's younger boxer. When the young energetic one wouldn't stop following my little one around, he'd trot in between them and quietly create some distance for her. My little old lady evidently appreciated this quite a bit, so much so that it once caused my family a scare. We always kept the big dogs and small dogs separated if the big dogs were playing, or if we were out of the house, or if no one was committed to supervising them. One day after an outing my mom panicked a little when she couldn't find my little old lady, and it turned out that she, not wanting to be alone for the long duration of a shopping trip and dinner, walked a couple steps down (at her age and size she was quite apprehensive about stairs, and typically would not cross even one or two steps) and then squeezed through the bars of a baby gate in order to nestle into a dog bed with my mom's dog. He was really an incredible dog, and his gentle, agreeable, social, other-oriented nature was certainly a big part of that.

On the other hand, that little old lady of a Chihuahua, when I met her, didn't know how to walk on a leash, resource guarded laps and bit about it, and didn't respond to my stupid attempts to scold her except by mistrusting me and avoiding me. Learning how to communicate her and win her over was one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. By the end of her life she was a dog I could trust around strangers, dog and human, of all sizes and personalities, whom I could take offleash anywhere, who would wait for my signal at a crosswalk, who I could have lie down on some blankets on a table where I was eating and trust her when I walked out of the room, and whom I learned to read for the tiniest signals: eye contact, pointing at what she wanted with her eyes, inaudible growls/whines I could only feel because she was in my lap, the 10 kinds of trembling that comprise key terms in the Chihuahua language... and I probably wouldn't have learned much of anything from her if she hadn't demanded that I come to her and understand her perspective and needs and wants first.

What has food motivation or desire to please have to do with intelligence? I view them as completely orthogonal. A dog can be an idiot and not be food motivated or have a desire to please and conversely a dog can be really smart and be food motivated and eager to please.

Just like parent poster story - dog did not want treat from person it did not like.

That's a smart dog, while I can imagine someone observing such occurence calling the dog dumb.

A rule of thumb we were taught is half the food comes from training (not to the point of cruelty, adjust the training to be easier if needed so they get enough). You can adjust per dog, but many people treat training rewards as "treats" which are surplus to their needs, so greedy or food-loving dogs (I would be one, as is our first dog) will take it but others won't care.

High stress or emotional arousal or a distracting environment will supersede this but it's a decent starting point which people often miss. Luckily our second dog likes play and praise so that gives us more options.

We used that for dog #1. Works great to be able to dole out kibble for training.

Dog #2 just doesn't care. She eats the recommended daily amount, but will take hours to finish a meal. Walking away and coming back later. She just doesn't care about food.

Yeah they really do vary a lot. Something I did not appreciate until getting my first as an adult (as a child, I had no positive feelings towards dogs which I find sad now).

I have heard trainers who suggest meal time is meal time, the food is taken if it is not eaten, it's not a self-serve grazing buffet. I think part of it is about making it clear who is in charge, especially if a dog is not listening during training, but there are other reasons I forget like resource guarding and predictable toileting. But we all decide how much we let them express their personalities :)

We have 2 french bulldogs. They're loosely related. one is smart as a whip. One is dumb as hell.

The former, I'm not sure they'd remember toy names from 10 years ago but I've been impressed time after time after time at her ability to understand the world around her.

THe latter, he's just lucky to remember how to walk down the hall.

Sometimes it is the luck of the draw.

Heck, I’ve got a food-motivated cat and I’ve trained her to do all kinds of tricks.

You have limited experience. Mine couldn't care less about food if a ball was near it. We also missed her feeding a few times and she never begged or reminded about the food. I usually carry a bag of treats (her favourite) but sometimes she refuses to eat them.

Wolves naturally don't usually eat everyday either, we just make dogs do it because we do it.

My dog must have missed the memo. He'll come over at EXACTLY 6 o'clock (to the minute) to remind you about dinner if it hasn't yet been served. He used to do the same in the morning but eventually we reached a truce on the concept of sleeping in from time to time.

That's why you never feed them at an exact time.

We have a time frame of roughly 3 hours in which we feed the dog.

That way we can have a nice dinner too, go to a musical etc. pp.

A friend of ours made the same mistake as you. His dog becomes a real diva after 6pm, if she hasn't eaten

I tried doing that with my dogs, but it led to them being annoyingly clingy as their general dinner time approached because they knew they could be fed suddenly at any time.

So I switched to using a phone alarm that marks when it's time to feed the dogs. I can easily change the time it rings to adjust their meal times, and they remain patient because they know that they won't be fed until they hear that sound.

Are you implying he's conditioned me?

Out of curiosity we've tried to figure out if there's some external cue he's relying on outside of a very accurate internal 'clock', and haven't found any. He's consistent even in the face of timezone changes and travel across the country (and other mundane tricks that'd eliminate stimulus like daylight cues), different environments / homes (ruling out equipment / building / neighbourhood noises), and different humans (in case his usual companions unwittingly broadcast hints).

I'm forced to the conclusion he swallowed a Rolex at some point.

My own schedule isn't particularly routine otherwise, so it's actually not an unwelcome anchor. He does understand and give up after a couple attempts if you tell him 'later' or have an obvious reason for the delay. He's intent, but not impolite.

We left him with a friend once for a few days who feeds their own dog an hour earlier. The discovery that 5 o'clock dinnertime can be a thing completely rocked his world. He tried to share this revolutionary breakthrough with us but with limited success.

Wolves can eat 20lbs of meat in one meal. They’re hunters that eat their fill when food is present because there’s no guarantee they’ll catch prey later. Not really a reasonable comparison to a domesticated animal that’s not designed for feast/famine living.

I have a dog who is so food-motivated that he gets distracted by the chance of a treat and won't learn anything.

Ha, I was going to say the same thing! We have a Black Lab with the same problem, he's so motivated by food that he gets tunnel vision and can't focus on anything but the treat in our hands. Training him was tough.

Being motivated to learn isn't equal to being effective at learning. Not all dogs are prone to "understand" what the training is about. Sometimes, they seem like they are eager and ready to engage with your training, but then at the end of the day, not really having learned anything.

Food, but play is better...

In many cases it's the owners fault, not being able to train well

I agree, most dogs are not hard to train, but also not all of them are motivated by food. We accidentally got a Kuvasz (probably a mix, with 50cm at the shoulder she is a little short for a pure breed) puppy eight years ago. That's a LGD from Hungary. By "accidentally" I mean nobody in the shelter knew what kind this white fuzzball was, but she liked us, we liked her, so we took her home. It was quite the surprise when we found out what we got there.

Anyhow, like many of her kind she is NOT into food. That made training her in the beginning very difficult, because we knew no other way back than. Even today, I always have to chuckle when I try to give her a treat and she takes the treat very gently from my hand and puts it down on the floor, like saying "let me put it there for you." Of course, sometimes she just eats it but you never know.

We had a Samoyed who was completely uninterested in food. We tried everything including treats, meat, peanut butter, what not. It would not even touch that food and only eat when he was hungry. He did love combing his hair a lot, walkies and frisbee. So, in the first couple of months, we actually used combing his hair and frisbee as a prize, despite our reservations because his hair would develop knots. But he learned extremely quickly and then we could let it go.

Dogs actually don’t need food for training. It’s an effective, but “lazy” way to train dogs. The best practice is behavioral, to show you are the leader in the dog’s pack. Then you won’t need to ever give a treat for good behaviour. And even in my case where I do give a treat some times, my dog completely obeys me “organically”. PS.: I’m a veterinarian.

There's certainly a degree of luck regarding a dog's demeanor though. I have a BC / Beagle mix and started training her with treats: she's highly food motivated!

Eventually I realized she also loves to please - and reason things out herself - and the food was completely unnecessary! No specific "dominance" training necessary.

That is actually my point: if your dog likes to please you, it’s because in part it sees you as a leader. It’s not so much (always) about specific training (and definitely nothing resembling being an “alpha” in modern parlance).