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Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by bschne on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @03:52PM (#39375160)
I always wonder how much of this sort of thing is disdain for the specific tool vs. disdain for what working in a mid-to-large org. is like and the overhead it usually brings with it.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by commandlinefan on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:43PM (#39375921)
> disdain for the specific tool vs. disdain for what working in a mid-to-large org

You're kind of missing the problem here - it's both and neither. It's not the tool (it's awful) or the mid-to-large org itself, it's the concept that a tool as blunt as a ticketing system can meaningfully capture software development management in a useful way.

If people just treated it as a "necessary evil" time-tracking type system to make sure people were really working when they said they were, that would be irritating but not damaging. But far too many people without a lot of mental faculties actually take it completely seriously and try to put everything in it and expect meaningful results out of it. It actually ends up being worse than "nothing at all" because it _insists_ on the "only do what can be predicted and whose predictions is measured in hours" model of software development that stupid people think encapsulates creative activities.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by dboreham on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:55PM (#39376081)
> the concept that a tool as blunt as a ticketing system can meaningfully capture software development management in a useful way.

The background to this is : yes it can. I worked in organizations (long pre-Jira) where we developed the bug/ticketing system specifically to drive our development management process. The two evolved in concert. The result was excellent, and sadly has never been re-achieved with any of the modern tools.

My take on this is that somebody was told that the bug system can be used to drive project management (which it can) but then implemented a bug system without any real understanding of what that means or how to achieve it.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by lijok on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:52PM (#39376048)
> But far too many people without a lot of mental faculties actually take it completely seriously and try to put everything in it and expect meaningful results out of it. It actually ends up being worse than "nothing at all" because it _insists_ on the "only do what can be predicted and whose predictions is measured in hours" model of software development that stupid people think encapsulates creative activities.

You’re conflating ticketing systems with work estimation.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by commandlinefan on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:54PM (#39376068)
So are they.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ta1243 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:24PM (#39375628)
I work in a mid-to-large org. The more agile part use tools like jira and slack. The older part (established in the 1920s) use Remedy and Teams.

Jira is brilliant. It is team-led. Different teams have different approaches, some love all the features like components, versions, issue types, assignee, kanban boards, scrumms, reports etc etc. Others like my team use it with subject/description/comments. You make the tool fit what the team needs.

Same with slack, you can create and destroy channels around your team -- anyone can create any channel at any point it makes sense -- problem at 3AM, spin up a channel to discuss it, job done. You can integrate and add plugins nice and easy.

Remedy and Teams are led top down. They're designed to be organised, not organic. They're not built for the teams doing the work, but for the people wanting reporting. It's more about monthly KPIs than actually improving performance.

I have no doubt you can use Jira in a "KPI led" way. I do doubt you can use Remedy in a responsible way, but even if you can, it relies on the culture of those selling the tools.

Sadly I fear jira and slack will be next -- they already took Zoom and gave us teams instead, after all we "already pay for teams with office" (which aside from cloud-based email, I, and my teammates, never use).

Never has an anti-trust move been so obvious or damaging.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by zac23or on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:46PM (#39376646)
“Jira is brilliant”

I've never read that sentence before!

My feeling is... developers hate Jira, managers love Jira. And that is expected. The tendency is for things loved by managers to be hated by developers, such as meetings, metrics, etc.

An example of a very misused metric: In one of my jobs, managers started using Scrum Poker results as a productivity measure. “My team scored 100 points in the last sprint.” Imagine the chaos this generated. Quickly teams began to hate the Scrum poker.

Jira is probably just a scapegoat in corporate theater, something needs to be to blame. Jira is a good culprit.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by kortex on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @07:04PM (#39377348)
I'm a developer, and while I don't love it, I certainly don't hate it, and I don't see it worse than any other task-tracking tool. I haven't used trello or asana in a hot minute, but they were way worse in terms of UI and UX.

I'm not totally sold on the whole points poker process though, but that could be a criticism of agile as a whole.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by scott_w on Thursday February 15, 2024 @10:28AM (#39383824)
Planning poker, story points, etc. are not an intrinsic part of agile (or even Scrum, from what I understand). Honestly, I'd not use them at all because they're not worth the time investment.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by psunavy03 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:00PM (#39385124)
"Agile as a whole" does not require planning poker, or story points, or burndown charts, or Fibonacci estimates, or Kanban boards, or any of that. Neither does Scrum. Google "Agile Manifesto" and "2020 Scrum Guide."

If it isn't in the 4 values and 12 principles, it's not required in Agile. If it isn't in the guide, it isn't required in Scrum.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ta1243 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @03:56PM (#39388711)
> I'm not totally sold on the whole points poker process though, but that could be a criticism of agile as a whole.

My understanding of agile is give your developers the tools they want, the information they want, and the ability and incentive to communicate widely, quickly, and frequently however they want, and get out of the way. You have to devolve responsibility and accountability for meeting business goals down to the team level though, and that team has to act as one.

None of that has anything to do with "points poker process", or any process. Obviously everyone has a process, even solo developers working on their own hobby, but that process is "what works best".

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by psunavy03 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @07:03PM (#39377346)
> The tendency is for things loved by managers to be hated by developers, such as meetings, metrics, etc.

There's an unfortunate tendency for some people to scoff at the immutable fact that to write software, you have to talk to other human beings. And that if a company is paying you good money to do it, they are going to want to know when it will be done and what ROI they are getting on your salary.

Sure, there are stupid meetings and stupid metrics. But to lump "meetings" and "metrics" into a "hated" category is the mark of an immature dev who doesn't understand why he/she has a job and a salary in the first place.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by cqqxo4zV46cp on Thursday February 15, 2024 @02:24AM (#39379997)
It’s why I just can’t take some dev communities seriously. Too many immature / inexperienced people will talk eachother into thinking that their “I should just be able to sit here and code!” mentality is justified or even viable. Who the hell else gets to work like that? The utter hubris.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ta1243 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @08:03AM (#39382160)
I work like that, but I love occasional meetings to catch up with peers. My immediate team of 3 people has a twice-weekly "standup" meeting, and communicate through the rest of the week in a slack channel. I have a weekly catchup with another team and a monthly with a couple more, and once every 3 months a large pan-org community get together in person, typically with a beer and curry.

Of course there are terrible meetings too. I currently have a PM who had 5 meetings with me a week on two minor projects. I don't go to those meetings, I just update the jira when there's an update. I need to do that as I am working on 40 things at a time and I don't have the mental capacity to remember how many plates I'm spinning. That's far more efficient, it's asynchronous, easy to keep on top of.

I see some colleagues struggling to get anything done because they are in meetings 6 hours a day, they go from one meeting to another without even a pause for a break. In those meetings they then try to half-listen and send emails about other subjects. They don't need to be in those meetings.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by passivegains on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:40PM (#39385649)
It sounds like you don't work like that, you talk to other humans at occasional meetings. I do mostly "just sit down and code" and it's a problem. Your situation sounds healthy and productive to me, I want to be more like that.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ta1243 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @03:51PM (#39388632)
I talk to other humans at productive meetings - about 2-3 hours a week on average. Those that need updates don't need my time -- they're stored in the jiras. Crucially that information is still available months and years later.

If I didn't communicate, how else would I know where the problems are, or what other people are working on so I don't duplicate effort.

90% of my week is not in meetings though, and about 0% of my week is in business metrics (plenty of metrics on things like availability from monitoring systems, but nothing out of jira, because what's the point in trying to record metrics which nobody cares about)

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by mmcnl on Thursday February 15, 2024 @06:09PM (#39390568)
Yeah it's very entitled. Like only software developers do actual meaningful complex work and everyone else just sits in meetings and does nothing.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by zac23or on Thursday February 15, 2024 @01:24PM (#39386297)
> But to lump "meetings" and "metrics" into a "hated" category is the mark of an immature dev

To me, these things are normal occurrences in organizational theater. I ignore that. But after sitting in a few 12-hour meetings, participating in some metrics-based programming (MBP) and filling out 100 fields in a deployment request tool, I UNDERSTAND if someone hates this kind of thing, is not only 'immaturity'.

And I'm not try to change anything, my experience is that if we can convince those in charge to stop having unnecessary meetings or using metrics incorrectly, something worse will replace those things, like no meetings, but super micromanagement. ... because the nature of the organization that does these things is to continue doing them, in other ways.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by psunavy03 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @06:19PM (#39390673)
Understanding that stupid/pointless/badly run meetings and toxic cultures exist is not the same thing as immaturely assuming all meetings are automatically time-wasters or that all corporate cultures must be toxic.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by mmcnl on Thursday February 15, 2024 @06:08PM (#39390552)
Exactly. Also developers often say they want less meetings so they can do more work, or something akin to that. But meetings _are_ work. And where I've worked there was always room to present feedback is a meeting felt unnecessary.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by incangold on Saturday February 17, 2024 @11:11AM (#39410711)
This issue is that jira does not measure roi
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by cqqxo4zV46cp on Thursday February 15, 2024 @02:22AM (#39379989)
Yes, but orgs that want to do this would likely have done it regardless of the use of Jira. I have my team use story points yet I don’t ever use them to measure team or individual velocity. The fact that Jira enables incompetent managers (which is not the same thing as ‘managers’, one is necessary and one is not) to be incompetent is in my opinion a fairly low-level mark against it.

The reality is that most developers don’t know what degree of organisation / visibility is required for it to even be tenable to do their job in the context of a wider organisation. ICs, and the experience of ICs, should certainly be taken into consideration when picking PM tooling, but it’s not a bad mark against an org to also take into consideration the very real needs of management, PMs, etc.

There are always going to be those people that will categorically associate management with ‘bad’ and I just simply cannot respect that opinion. It’s the equivalent of being mad at your parents for setting a bedtime. Some of the Jira hate definitely comes from people with that mindset.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ta1243 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @07:57AM (#39382115)
I use jira, I do not use points, sprints, scrums, etc

Jira doesn't require those features. My workflow is "Ready, On Hold, In Progress, Done". It's a glorified task list with assignees, tagging, emails etc, that's corporate-wide -- no need to get random people to get accounts, everyone has one. All over our documentation and configs are references to "TKT-1234", which explains the background to a specific thing far more than an inline comment could.

It does the job just fine, I didn't need to jump through any hoops to get it working like that.

The alternate system engineers in other departments use is email. Tracking things in email is awful.

You can use Jira for far worse things, but that's not a problem with the tool, that's a problem with the culture.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by bitcharmer on Thursday February 15, 2024 @10:12AM (#39383585)
> My feeling is... developers hate Jira

I'm a developer and I like Jira. People who hate it are probably forced to use some bloated setups. We just use Kanban and the backlog and that's it. It's great if you don't turn it into a fully blow project management tool.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by Izkata on Friday February 16, 2024 @09:26AM (#39397445)
Exactly this. After layoffs and a small restructuring last year, we created a new project for our team in Jira and didn't include anything that had been added by upper management in the previous project, used a simplified workflow, and further changes are talked about by the team at retro. Went from a pain to easy to use.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by LtWorf on Sunday February 18, 2024 @12:06PM (#39420749)
Read the rest of the comment and what he loves about it. He's not a dev.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by vundercind on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:13PM (#39376311)
Teams would be fine with two things:

1) Let a Team channel be a normal-ass chat instead of some weird forum-in-a-chat-interface. Shit gets lost. Creating a new post feels very formal and high friction, because it’ll push everything else out of view (another, minor problem: teams’ padding and whitespace is way out of control). Make it configurable! That’s ok. The weird chat-as-forum thing is fine for a very low-traffic announcements channel (and very bad for anything else) so having it as an option is alright.

2) Allow “create a meeting for this Teams channel” that puts any meeting chat directly in the channel.

These two problems force conversations away from the “Team” and into meeting-specific chats and DMs. It’s really, really bad. It silos knowledge and makes it hard to tell wtf is going on.

Teams is horrible for distributed or hybrid work because of these two deficiencies.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by stackskipton on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @08:10PM (#39377911)
On Number 2, you can schedule a meeting in a channel that have meeting show in the channel and keep the chat there.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by a1o on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:28PM (#39376461)
There is probably some feature request somewhere in Microsoft weird tech channel with thousands of comments and upvotes and some MS person appearing every three years to let us know they "are looking into it".
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by vundercind on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:32PM (#39376503)
There were a couple years-old ones on public feature request sites last I checked. They’re ignoring them.

It’s frustrating because Teams can already do normal chat rooms, and can already schedule meetings. Just not in the most-useful places to have those two features. It’s not brand-new feature development from scratch.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ta1243 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @08:04AM (#39382174)
It's probably somewhere in a Teams channel, and nobody in microsoft can actually find it.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ClimaxGravely on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @08:50PM (#39378179)
2) Is that the equivalent of a slack huddle?
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by vundercind on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @11:19PM (#39379060)
Nah, you can schedule meetings (like, coordinate it through Outlook with a scheduler tool and the invite emails auto send and all that) in a chat, but not a Team channel. Chats in Teams are not in a Team (god the terminology gets confusing) but are more ad-hoc, like direct or group messages. You can pin chats but there’s no “THIS is THE ‘general’ chat for project X, this is THE support chat” et c that looks the same for everyone. The chat interface is separate from the Teams and Team channels. You can’t create a meeting from a Team channel (at least, I’ve not seen a way).

All they goddamn need is a way to permanently attach Chat rooms to a Team, as a channel, basically. The channels are these weird forced-threaded things that are more like… blogging? With comments? In a chat interface? Or a forum but it’s impossible to follow several threads because of the interface? They’re horrid and have a UI so bizarre that I’d buy it as parody.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ClimaxGravely on Thursday February 15, 2024 @03:23AM (#39380314)
I had no idea but I haven't used teams since about 2018. I guess it might have changed considerably.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by apple4ever on Monday February 26, 2024 @04:18PM (#39516869)
OH MY GOSH yes. I first started using Teams and these two things drive me crazy.

Just make it like Slack, and Discord, etc. its a solved problem!

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by kstrauser on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:27PM (#39375660)
I can personally vouch that Jira can be inflicted on engineers in a “KPI led” way.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by freedomben on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:30PM (#39375723)
yes same, in fact the access to metrics (for use in part in KPIs) was a primary driver of our adoption of Jira
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ta1243 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @08:05AM (#39382180)
And a screwdriver can be used to destroy. Doesn't mean that's the only way to use it.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by almostnormal on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:09PM (#39376274)
> Jira is brilliant. It is team-led. Different teams have different approaches, [...]

That doesn't sound real. There's supposed to be some central department(s) that collect ideas from the process framework of the season or requested by customers (especially those items for levels that are not requested), add their own ideas and create a superset of that as configuration with everything set to mandatory. The result is infliced upon everyone, except of course the department that was responsible for the definition.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by NikolaNovak on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:13PM (#39376316)
Interesting; I think this is a demonstration of how much what seems like a "Tool" is actually "organization", because my current experience is completely opposite:

* In MS teams, I can create conversations, group chats, organic meetings, and add people (and include history) as I want and desire. I prefer it for quick discussions with my colleagues and to get a rapid problem solving or critical incident conversation where I don't immediately know who I need / what it's about, and it'll scale as I add people. I push a button and talk to people, push a button to add people, push a button to video chat, all seamless.

* Slack is structured and formal and based around enterprise-created channels and workgroups, with way too much noise in each massive channel and way too little content that's even remotely relevant to me. Outside of channels, conversations are horribly gimped: A) I can only have one conversation with each set of people, I cannot simply rename a chat and have three different chats with same people around different topics B) If I add people to an existing conversation, it will create a new chat without history (this may have improved recently as I know we sent a TON of feedback to Slack admins). Basically, to get anything done you have to create channels, which is great for "top down, I know ahead of time what I need / want to enforce" structure, but awful for "this started as a one-on-one and is now a massive discussion with 17 people"

I'm looking at some of the other comments, and it seems they have some weird gimped version of MS Teams. E.g.:

>>"Allow “create a meeting for this Teams channel” that puts any meeting chat directly in the channel."

This... is how it works for me. I start a conversation with some people, then I add people, then I click "Call", then we all video call together, then we are done and keep typing in it, repeat as needed.

Weird!

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by TJSomething on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:18PM (#39376359)
> Basically, to get anything done you have to create channels, which is great for "top down, I know ahead of time what I need / want to enforce" structure, but awful for "this started as a one-on-one and is now a massive discussion with 17 people"

In Slack, you can turn a group DM into a private channel and keep the history.

https://slack.com/help/articles/217555437-Convert-a-group-di...

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by Tagbert on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @06:00PM (#39376794)
That sounds like you have a very top-down organization and they have setup Slack to mirror that dynamic. Slack by itself does not have those restrictions.

Individuals can create Slack Channels (often too many channels). You can setup adhoc groups through DM and can add people to that group . You have the choice when adding people to a chat to block the history or give them full access to the history. At any point you can convert a adhoc group into a Channel and decide if it will be private or public. You can click to start a call or to start a zoom with those present in the group or channel. it's pretty seamless, too.

It sounds like the difference is your organization.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by NikolaNovak on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @06:43PM (#39377174)
Yes. That is the very first sentence in my post :).

A lot of our presumed perspective and experience with tools is actually our experience with organizations and policies.

Conversely, majority of issues I've read here with Ms Teams, are not part of my own experience - Teams I use is way easier and more flexible and user friendly than the slack I use.

Is it the case that more startups used slack vs more enterprises used teams and that sealed in some stereotype?

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ClimaxGravely on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @08:52PM (#39378193)
I wonder about that too. I've used both and personally I consider neither vastly superior to the other or even that much different.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by blueskythinking on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:52PM (#39376046)
If by “team lead” you mean the noisy few set the rules and the rest of us have to deal with it, then that also matches my experience of Jira.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by fennecfoxy on Thursday February 15, 2024 @06:03AM (#39381298)
Isn't that just human interactions in general? Society etc.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ta1243 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @08:07AM (#39382197)
My team is 3 people so we're all the "noisy few"
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by wkat4242 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:49PM (#39375993)
I don't want to use any tool or methodology.. I just want to do my work.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by NikolaNovak on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:15PM (#39376341)
I'm assuming that's a funny/sarcastic comment, but the scary part is... there's a chance it might be serious! :-O
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by wkat4242 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @11:05PM (#39378988)
No I'm serious, the whole 'agile' and Jira thing just wastes my time and distracts me from the work.

I know what to do and how to do it, I don't like the whole unnecessary framework around it. Sure, tools that actually help me to do my job are good. But my job is not one that requires very specific tools. And methodologies I hate because they try to constrain my thinking.

For the same reason I really hate participating in religions, for telling me what to think, to show up in church and pretend I agree and be part of their arbitrary group with its arbitrary rules. I'm more of a free spirit. I'm the opposite of a 'team player'.

But of course people differ and I know some people love the sense of belonging and the guidelines.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ta1243 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @08:08AM (#39382216)
A large part of my work is communicating with other teams and making sure we all fit together. Jira allows me to do that far more efficiently than phone-calls and a private notebook (like one person I know), or emails (like several)
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by croo on Thursday February 15, 2024 @02:36AM (#39380079)
Read as a feeling instead of a rational thought I can deeply empathise. I recently had my first experience with Jira that enforces sprints and an illogical workflow for a team that should work in kanban with several types of tickets of witch at least two should exist for any work to be getting done, often more because you need a different ticket for the managerial problem and a different for the techical part of the solution and an additional one for the analysis of the problem at hand all written up so anyone could do any task, nicely linked.

It is horrible. I just want to work. It's two lines of a fix in a config file. It does not need such a ceremony but a message on teams.

In my case this is a solution to a problem of fluctuation and growth so described processes can make everyone redundant. I bet the people set this up never even read the agile manifesto.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by fragmede on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:54PM (#39376071)
how do you want to do work without tools?
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by wkat4242 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @11:09PM (#39379015)
Well tools that actually help me to do my job, yes. But Jira doesn't. It's just an impediment.

The same with 'agile' that's just forced on us not because it is a great idea but because our idiot CIO loves her buzzwords. It's not even implemented right.

Ps I don't do any development work. The problem is they're trying to shoehorn a methodology that doesn't work for us. I'm not even part of a team that do the same as what I do. But in general i don't like the mental restrictions that having to adhere to methodologies brings.

This explains it a bit better: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39338582

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ta1243 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @04:00PM (#39388768)
Where do you track what plates you're spinning? When you look at some function and you go "what does that feature supposed to do", where do you look up the history? Just in git comments on the file?

Do you simply not track or communicate at all? Do you store it all in a personal notebook? Do you store everything in emails? Files in dropbox? Or do you rely on memorising everything you do, why you do it, when you do it, for who, etc?

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by wkat4242 on Friday February 16, 2024 @01:36AM (#39393913)
> Where do you track what plates you're spinning? When you look at some function and you go "what does that feature supposed to do", where do you look up the history? Just in git comments on the file?

Like I said I'm not a developer at all. I don't use git for work. Nor do I collaborate on my tasks with other people. My brain is enough to keep track of things. Yet the company wants everyone to be "agile" regardless of the role.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by lmm on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:19PM (#39376374)
> Jira is brilliant. It is team-led. Different teams have different approaches, some love all the features like components, versions, issue types, assignee, kanban boards, scrumms, reports etc etc. Others like my team use it with subject/description/comments. You make the tool fit what the team needs.

> Same with slack, you can create and destroy channels around your team -- anyone can create any channel at any point it makes sense -- problem at 3AM, spin up a channel to discuss it, job done. You can integrate and add plugins nice and easy.

> Remedy and Teams are led top down. They're designed to be organised, not organic. They're not built for the teams doing the work, but for the people wanting reporting. It's more about monthly KPIs than actually improving performance.

I'd say it's the other way round. Everywhere I've seen Jira, the person who can change the tool settings (e.g. make mandatory fields optional, add a transition to allow you to move a card to the column it should be in (because Jira is deny by default, you can only move things in ways that are specifically allowed) is a very distant part of the org chart from the team doing day to day work on it. "not built for the teams doing the work, but for the people wanting reporting. It's more about monthly KPIs than actually improving performance" is exactly how I'd describe Jira, given how I've seen it used (across a great many organisations, large and small - indeed I'd say switching to Jira is the most reliable indicator that a previously fun company has grown too big and it's time to leave).

Some stuff is probably just typical managerial bullshit. But the fact that Jira defaults to working as a slow, drag-and-drop interface with no undo is absolutely an unforced error.

> Never has an anti-trust move been so obvious or damaging.

Atlassian buying Trello and gradually ruining it is worse than MS giving away crappy products for free.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ta1243 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @08:13AM (#39382261)
Your jira seems to be set up to reduce your control

My corporate jira gives me full control over the workflows, what fields are shown, etc

That's not a jira problem, it's an organisation problem

There's no way I could extract any usable metrics from my jira, but that's not its purpose. It can however tell me where we are with the new upgrades to Site 95 (waiting on the people running the fibres), or who wanted that new device in Site 5 and crucially why.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by psunavy03 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:48PM (#39375967)
It's no different than Agile or Scrum. It's just a tool, but if you put it in the hands of morons, you're going to have a bad time. Especially when there are explicit assumptions about how you'll use it built into said tool, and then said morons ignore them.

Unfortunately in any medium-to-large org, there are a non-zero number of morons.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by VonGallifrey on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:31PM (#39375742)
When I clicked on the site the very first opinion called Jira shit because they had 20 different boards for the same thing, 2000 tickets in the backlog and 20 different mandatory fields for each ticket.

Which is absolutely not the fault of Jira. Jira does not make you create 20 boards and per default a Title is all you need to create a Ticket. By the complaints own wording they had 2000 tickets because management refused to delete outdated and irrelevant tickets.

A new tool would not fix this since I would bet that management would insist that all 20 boards with all tickets in the backlog would need to be transitioned to the new tool. The mandatory fields are obviously also highly important to management, those need to be configured in the new tool as well.

Instead of complaining about the obviously bad management they just complain about Jira. That is, I think, very common when complaining about jira.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by michaelt on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:53PM (#39376054)
Would you at least agree that it's bad that Jira is slow as shit, in both its hosted and on-prem forms?

Management didn't insist on that.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by VonGallifrey on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @08:18PM (#39377972)
It isn't slow for me. So no, not in my experience.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ta1243 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @07:52AM (#39382073)
Yup, we have a self-hosted one and speed is fine.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by lmm on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @06:10PM (#39376902)
If one company uses a tool badly that's a bad company. But if most companies use the tool badly that's a bad tool.

Jira certainly seems to push people towards having a handful of manager users who are the only ones who can create boards/transitions or adjust which fields are mandatory, and this leads to bad behaviour - if only one VIP can create boards, they'll probably create 20 once and then never create another. "Title is all that's required" may be the default in some editions of Jira today but it certainly isn't widely used. And "transitions are impossible by default and only possible if enabled by the admin" is a uniquely bad Jira-ism that other tools in this space don't have - there may be occasional use cases where you need e.g. an action that's impossible to undo, but it's an awful default.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by VonGallifrey on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @08:38PM (#39378105)
Well... for us every team gets a "Project" and the Team Lead is admin for the Project. The TL can then Create Boards, Issue Types, and Workflows. The Team is in control of what their Board and Workflows look like. Not some far away manager and if we do need the company Jira Admin to do something, it just needs a IT Support Ticket and that will be handled.

We set up our Board and Workflow fairly minimal. Which is probably why I don't have any problems with Jira.

> And "transitions are impossible by default and only possible if enabled by the admin" is a uniquely bad Jira-ism that other tools in this space don't have

What do you mean by that? The default Workflow in Jira is that all Issues can transition into any status.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by lmm on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @08:55PM (#39378203)
> The default Workflow in Jira is that all Issues can transition into any status.

The default workflow in some newer editions has a transition that allows that yes. But custom workflows don't have those transitions unless and until an admin manually adds them. If the person who set up the workflow didn't think of some edge case, you're SOL.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by VonGallifrey on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @09:12PM (#39378329)
Since the person that made the workflow is always the Team Lead we are never "SOL". It is a 2 minute thing to fix a workflow.

Sounds to me like you probably never edited the Jira workflows yourself. If it takes your company more then an hour to change a workflow then that is a decision to artificially limit things.

Also: Custom workflows start with with the "Any" transition on all states and when adding a new status it also has the "Any" transition. If that is different in your workflows then that is a deliberate decision.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by lmm on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @09:31PM (#39378439)
> Sounds to me like you probably never edited the Jira workflows yourself. If it takes your company more then an hour to change a workflow then that is a decision to artificially limit things.

I've never been able to edit the workflow, except at one company where I had access to the "beta" Jira but not the "real" one. This is across, like, five or six different companies - again, if it were one company I'd say it's a bad decision by that company, but the fact that it's so consistently done this way tells me it's something about the tool.

> Also: Custom workflows start with with the "Any" transition on all states and when adding a new status it also has the "Any" transition. If that is different in your workflows then that is a deliberate decision.

Wasn't the case as recently as 2020 (the last time I had access to create my own custom workflow, and I'm pretty sure that was a newer version of Jira than many large companies are using). Are you using the cloud version or something?

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by VonGallifrey on Thursday February 15, 2024 @02:18AM (#39379967)
I am using the Cloud version, but I have been using Jira over the last 10~12 Years at different companies. I can't remember a time where transitions where restricted by default. I always preferred a less restricted workflow if I am working with a I can trust, but I can't remember needing to change workflows to enable transitions from a default.

What I wanted to get across is that Jira makes it very easy to give control to the Team that is using a specific Board or Workflow. If your company don't trust their Teams with that then that is a failure of the company and not a failure of Jira.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by matt_s on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @07:05PM (#39377354)
The problem with JIRA the product vs. any instance of JIRA is feature bloat in the product has allowed for people to spin their wheels with all sorts of whiz-bang categories, labels, charts, and other nonsense.

The dopamine hit from tweaking charts and organizing digital clutter is probably the same area of the brain where the social media infinite scroll dopamine hit happens. If JIRA the product didn’t offer all these dopamine hits for doing busy-work, aka “features”, and stuck to basics then people wouldn’t be complaining about the tool and how their management/admins have implemented some nonsensical process.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by goalieca on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @07:30PM (#39377573)
Medium sized orgs have a full-time jira person to manage all this. I’ve seen this now at three different orgs.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by sb8244 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:50PM (#39376006)
This hits the heart of it for me.

I've used Jira (last job) and Linear (now). I don't really see any compelling reason that Linear is "better" than Jira. Jira was always pretty easy to use and navigate for me, and we had team-focused views for ourselves.

Even on this site, several opinions I looked at are about the idea of process or the implementation of a process—not really about Jira. And several of the ones about Jira just came off as whiny nitpicking and not actually meaningful.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by stackskipton on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:07PM (#39376248)
Linear being strongly opinionated helps keep Project Managers (broad term for manager types) in check. Jira trying to be everything to everyone means KPI management is just a few clicks away.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by AtlasBarfed on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:41PM (#39376592)
I'm not going to "stan" for JIRA, but I've developed software before Jira with Bugzilla and other smorgasborgs of tools.

JIRA was a dramatic improvement at one point, however, it is bought and sold to managers, so it is unsurprising it eventually converges to managerial overengineering.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by mgkimsal on Thursday February 15, 2024 @08:49AM (#39382640)
> it is bought and sold to managers

That is the root of the issue.

I've seen many small orgs adopt trello, slack, discord and other tools organically. I've rarely seen a small org willingly choose jira or teams; that is a choice that is almost always imposed by non-users of those tools.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by sverhagen on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:09PM (#39375415)
My team does a lightweight agile process, we don't hate it. If we used a better tool, we'd love it. We have Jira, and I don't have the energy to change it, nor do I want the responsibility to decide or suggest what other tool that should be. I've always used Jira, I have no suggestions ready. I'm sure it's easy to pick a simple tracker, like GitHub Issues, but I would not know if it'd suffice all our needs and if it would scale, and again, I don't have the immediate energy to invest time into that. But meanwhile Jira is slowly eating away at me. I think the general concepts are acceptable. It's just all the rough edges, all the stupid little design decisions, and its slowness that I hate (passionately).
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by emllnd on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:43PM (#39375909)
- Monday.com

- Airtable

- A giant board on Miro.com with a bunch of notes in frames

Of course the scaling needs are different whether it’s for just a single team or if the data needs to be aggregated into some KPI. In my experience it’s better to keep KPI publishing separate from task tracking, though

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by lmm on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @06:12PM (#39376921)
> I'm sure it's easy to pick a simple tracker, like GitHub Issues, but I would not know if it'd suffice all our needs and if it would scale

The irony here is that those simple trackers scale a lot better. Jira's complexity is part of why it scales poorly - it's really bad when you have 500 people trying to use it.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by itronitron on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:00PM (#39375262)
Jira + Scrum is a soul crushing nightmare, Jira + Kanban is fine.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by OJFord on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:47PM (#39375961)
I agree that scrum is a soul-crushing nightmare & kanban is fine, but Jira a nightmare of a tool to use regardless of your process, IME.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ch4s3 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:04PM (#39375329)
Until someone comes along and tries to put some scrum into your kanban.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by toomuchtodo on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:21PM (#39375566)
Ahh, someone woke up and chose violence today.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by ch4s3 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @11:59AM (#39385115)
hilariously someone hated my joke enough to downvote it, but I think there's a kernel of truth.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by teeray on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:14PM (#39375472)
"but once we can get our estimates right, then think of all that we can do with these burndown charts!"
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by kstrauser on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:28PM (#39375682)
Chevy Chase in “Christmas Vacation”: “Bend over and I’ll show you.”
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by breather on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:22PM (#39375584)
Is there a context where time estimation is not employed, even implicitly?
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by scott_w on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:47PM (#39375963)
No, never. I’ve stopped doing story points for this reason. When people want an estimate, I tend to chop things into reasonable same-sized chunks and do my best effort based on that. I prefer the NoEstimates approach and try to use past data to be a bit more “real” but it’s not always possible.

The truth is, if someone wants a time estimate, just do that and don’t beat around the bush. It’s too much effort to still be wrong.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by lmm on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @06:59PM (#39377304)
Disagree; Jira + Kanban is if anything even worse. Since Jira is such a pain to use and Kanban doesn't have any requirement for estimation or timeboxing, people will write one ticket that says "do everything" and work on it for 6 months. While admittedly avoiding Jira for 6 months at a time is good for the soul, when you put your head down and work on something with no context for 6 months you usually end up making something that wasn't actually wanted and has to be thrown away or drastically reworked, which ends up being more soul crushing.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by DarkNova6 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:06PM (#39375365)
I am thinking the exact same thing. Right now I wish I could use Jira because I‘m using this IBM equivalent tool „CCM“.

CCM is so bad it’s nearly dysfunctional. Image Jira but 3 times the necessary clicks (this is not hyperbole).

With Jira I can see the good intentions and how they go awry. But CCM is pure madness from top to bottom.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by dakial1 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:46PM (#39375946)
Even IBM is getting rid of IBM (or ex IBM) stuff. They are using outlook now, lots of teams use Jira/Trello/Confluence etc...
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by MichaelZuo on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @09:03PM (#39378261)
They sold their in-house wiki system back in 2019 so they pretty much are forced to.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by username135 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:17PM (#39375525)
Gods, anything thats interactive and IBM related is generally annoying and not user friendly.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by emmelaich on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @07:06PM (#39377372)
Friend in IBM said the tool they used had 10s and 10s of mandatory fields...

Which were ignored because everyone found it easier to just read and search the comments. So a thick chunk of commenting became de facto mandatory.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by datadrivenangel on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @03:59PM (#39375250)
The specific tool is often bad, working in mid-to-large orgs is often bad, and the two combined can be catastrophically bad. Poorly configured Jira on top of a poorly run large organization and you end up with an orwellian system that does nothing but punish people and squander productivity and human life.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by kagevf on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:35PM (#39375797)
I've wondered the same thing about Microsoft Teams. Is Teams as horrible as people say, or do they just hate it because it's what they happen to use for video meetings at work? Conversely, I don't hear much hate for zoom.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by OJFord on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:50PM (#39376003)
Teams is the only reason Chrome (well, Chromium) is installed on my work laptop: it detects Firefox and refuses to function. So does Facetime, incidentally, which I found out more recently for a family thing, and that's why Chromium is also installed on my personal laptop currently.

I assume they're both doing something unfriendly that Firefox disallows on privacy or security grounds.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by whstl on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:08PM (#39376258)
I wonder if it refuses to function because of a lack of third party cookies. This is what caused it to fail for me on Safari.

Allowing third-party cookies solved my problem (but create others, of course).

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by OJFord on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @08:06PM (#39377861)
It says browser not supported, must use Edge or Chrome. (Pretty sure it didn't even say Safari, but I assume Facetime must have.)

That's why it's annoying really, that it isn't just not functional (or some specific feature doesn't work) unless you disable some built-in default safeguard say, it just completely refuses if it identities your browser is Firefox. Which I'm pretty sure is nonsense. Well, Jitsi, Slack, Discord, Zoom don't have a problem implementing chat & video conferencing in FF.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by WesleyJohnson on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:02PM (#39376185)
We switched from Slack to Teams several years ago because we were all-in on Office 365 products. Everyone hated the change, but with stuck with it. It was slow, crashed a lot, search was abysmal and you'd have to be a masochist to use it willingly....

But they pushed out a new version recently. Now you've got Teams Classic and Teams NEW (work or school)... at least on the Mac.

It's sooo much better. Way more stable. Search is a delight (relatively speaking). We get far fewer complaints now.

Worth mentioning: We only use the "Chat" aspect, we don't use the "Teams" aspect. If we want to discuss a project, we just spin up a new chat with relevant parties and rename the channel to the project. Works great. We could never get "buy in" on the Teams aspect, nor threaded discussions. The main reasoning was having to monitor two tabs in the product. Everyone just wanted to stay on the Chat tab, so we made it work.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by FireBeyond on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:19PM (#39376373)
> If we want to discuss a project, we just spin up a new chat with relevant parties

This part I struggle with, and maybe we're doing it wrong, but to me as a PM, this way is painful.

Search helps. But then I have to remember, "Was discussion about X in the chat with people A + B + C, or was it in A + B + D's chat, or B + D's chat, or..."

We also have significant challenges with knowledge silos (not intentional, and more about a cadre of new devs being brought on) that (not the only solution) I feel that pushing conversations to specific teams when appropriate might help, improving visibility.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by prepend on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:41PM (#39375882)
I can’t get a modal popup when someone messages me directly on teams. I have to check the list of chats for if someone has messaged me.

That’s stupid and a flaw in teams. It’s a bad messaging app. It’s pretty good with meetings though.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by magicmicah85 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:49PM (#39376000)
Are you on Mac by chance? I use notifications to gather all my pop ups as I’ve never been able to get the modals to work.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by prepend on Friday February 16, 2024 @01:41PM (#39401184)
Yes. I run on a Mac 99% of the time and it’s frustrating because pretty much every day people message me and they just sit there.

The best work around I’ve found is to have my phone nearby and use it for notifications.

Seems pretty silly for a messaging app to work so poorly.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by magicmicah85 on Friday February 16, 2024 @10:34PM (#39406097)
Not silly at all cause I do the same. I wonder if it’s a Mac issue displaying modals or a teams thing. I have the same issue with slack messages so I always assume it’s a Mac problem.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by kagevf on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:46PM (#39375948)
> I can’t get a modal popup when someone messages me directly on teams

that's pretty damning ...

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by niccl on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @06:34PM (#39377101)
I, and the rest of our dev team use Linux, and found Teams ok when there was a stand-alone client for it, but the browser-based stuff they forced on us a year or so ago was horrible. The notifications were particularly atrocious, to the point of making the whole thing unusable.

The .deb of the stand-alone package disappeared, so it seemed we were stuck with the pain of the browser-based stuff. Then I remembered archive.org and found the .deb. If anyone else is in a similar situation, it's at https://web.archive.org/web/20221130115842/https://packages.... Thanks, archive.org

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by psunavy03 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:45PM (#39375943)
Having used Teams previously, I strongly suspect the latter. I didn't find anything about it to be particularly obnoxious.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by mablopoule on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:11PM (#39376291)
Teams is nice enough when it works, but it tend to break far more than any other chat app I used. Stuff like getting the call notification (won't work on Firefox, I have to launch Chrome even though I can join a meeting on Firefox). The most annoying is that sometime it just doesn't display anything. Like no notification on my phone, or the lastest message will sometime not appear on a device.

Teams also have some very nice things going for it with it's Office 365 integration, but as a chat app it's just way more buggy than it should.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by wkat4242 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:51PM (#39376028)
It's slow, it's got a really poorly designed UI. It tries to do too much. It's not configurable enough, very low density
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by psunavy03 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:54PM (#39376065)
And it was none of these things enough for me to care. I'm not over the moon about it; I just don't despise it either. It's a tool, so I used it.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by wkat4242 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @01:25AM (#39379715)
Despise is not the word I'd use either. But it's this feeling that I have with so many Microsoft's products: Mediocrity.

Something like slack really feels good and intuitive to use. It had to be to make it on its own from nothing. Most alternatives for MS products and services are much better, simply because they have to be, they don't have the installed base to coast on.

With teams it feels like it's mainly chosen because it comes with O365 subscriptions for free anyway and it's not bad enough to justify paying separately for a better product. In fact most Microsoft products have this strong feeling about them. The same with Windows, Office, Yammer, Sharepoint, Edge.. It's not great experiences for the end users, though for the IT guys it's all pretty handy because of the integration. It's that feeling of missed opportunity, that it could actually have been great if someone had cared.

I think part of this is the failure of MS leadership to set a customer-centric vision. There seems to be a lot of infighting within business units. For example, they started out ok with Edge (even though it was just a chrome ripoff) but then some low-level exec had to go and enshittify it with coupon ads and loan schemes to inflate their own department's KPIs, but totally undermining the product and company as a whole. This is really something that a company with a strong vision wouldn't permit.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by mschuster91 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:10PM (#39376284)
> Is Teams as horrible as people say, or do they just hate it because it's what they happen to use for video meetings at work?

So, let's sum up my personal gripes (on a Mac):

1. Teams keeps locking up the dGPU for whatever reason randomly after calls, draining the battery and grilling my legs until I figure out that Teams has gone nuts again.

2. Since the macOS Sonoma update and the switch to the "new" Teams client, every time a call comes in, the ringtone glitches out (and I'm not alone in that)

3. There are three different ways of chatting with other people: Meeting chats and direct/group messages (these are summed up under the "chat" tab) and "teams" with "channels". The latter don't produce instant notifications when someone writes there, I guess because Microsoft doesn't want to deal with "I get an instant notification every time someone posts a kitten photo in the off-topic channel" complaints.

4. There is only one uploaded-files repository which means if you have a "screenshot.jpg" sent to someone, and you try to send a different file with the same name in a different chat, it will say "you already uploaded screenshot.jpg, do you want to replace this?". This is fucking bad UX, likely caused by Teams using OneDrive under the hood to share files.

5. The search is slooooow as molasses and damn useless. You have zero chance of ever finding something again, the larger the org the worse the pain.

6. No window/functionality remembers your context when you switch away. Say you click on a notification from a chat because a colleague needs an urgent answer, while you're scrolling in a team thread... you go back, and your scroll position is lost.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by turtles3 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @05:46AM (#39381176)
The worst thing that I've found with teams is the latency in a video call is _just slightly_ too high (and noticeably higher than Google meet and zoom). I find this latency to be absolutely critical in keeping the flow of conversation and preventing people from accidentally talking over each other. After seeing a forced switch to teams when the whole company was WFH, it was extremely obvious the detrimental impact it had on every meeting. It's the most basic technical aspect of the product, it doesn't matter how great the rest is if you don't nail it. That's why I hate teams.

Also the ux is pretty bad.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by viraptor on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:16PM (#39375511)
Jira is very crud-like unless you add plugins to make it a bit better. (Unless things have changed since I last used it?) That means lots of unnecessary clicking around and waiting for slow page loads when you just want to achieve something simple.

That compounds any corporate-inflicted issues.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by 112233 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:04PM (#39375313)
It is possible to have terrible poorly made tool, and use it to commit unspeakable atrocities.

If JIRA at least had rational design underlaying poor implementation, it would give some reason to bear and hope. Instead, it is an infinite fractal of nope, the likes of which you hardly encounter outside government contract projects.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by mrdoops on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:34PM (#39375785)
Yeah 100% the root pain is from low agency/trust dynamics of a large org.

Jira is just the tool management chooses because nobody-got-fired-for-buying-jira.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by karaterobot on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:14PM (#39375486)
The biggest company I've ever worked in was 120 people, and I hated using Jira. I also hated Jira at the ~100 person company I used to work for, and the 7 person company I worked for a few years ago. Jira has a lot of problems. I've yet to find the one, true, perfect work management system, but of the half dozen I've tried, Jira is the one I like the least.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by vundercind on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:50PM (#39376010)
I’ve never once been able to figure out WTF actual benefit it provides over GH issues or Gitlab’s equivalent. I was once told we couldn’t use Issues because “non-developers find it confusing” but holy shit that cannot be true, have you seen how much more confusing even a very vanilla Jira is?!

It seems to me these tools should be optimized for the majority of their users (developers) and if the PMs need pretty graphs and someone else wants it all in a spreadsheet (OMFG) they could use any of a hundred integrations to extract the data and generate those without more effort than wrangling Jira.

Shit, lots of places are already paying for GH or Gitlab (or self-hosting the latter). They just don’t use that part and instead also pay for Jira or Asana or ADO or whatever productivity-murdering junk-drawer-where-information-gets-lost garbage.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by IshKebab on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:33PM (#39375774)
Trust me it's distain for the tool. Jira is bad on three fronts:

1. It's too configurable. It's like the company wiki. People come in, set up some random projects, processes, fields, statuses, etc. and then move on. There's rarely someone making it all consistent and sensible. This results in task statuses that can be TODO, BACKLOG, PENDING, WAITING, TO DO, etc. etc. etc. You also end up with waaaay too many fields for tasks. Arbitrary distinctions between "Tasks" and "Stories", etc. You're at the mercy of your Jira admin who will definitely make worse decisions than e.g. the developers of Phabricator or Gitlab. Hiding useful fields, adding pointless ones, etc.

2. Despite being super configurable, it can't do some really basic things you'd expect from something whose sole job is task tracking. For example you can only parent tasks 2 or 3 levels deep. A task can't have two parents. Subtasks can't be in different sprints. You can't reorder tasks by priority in the backlog.

3. Most offensively it is just incredibly slow. The main way you add tasks to a sprint is drag and drop on the backlog, but it performs so badly (100% CPU all the time) that they've had to add context menu options to move tasks to the top/bottom or to a sprint. I believe there's also an option to disable animations. A simple web page should not consume 100% of my CPU.

It's by far the worst issue tracker I've ever used.

Companies still pay for it though because PMs love the pretty burndown charts and being able to add a gazillion fields to tasks. How will they report project status to their bosses if they can't have Jira work out the exact-to-the-second estimated delivery time automatically? And by "automatically" I mean by making someone else do all the work.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by spondylosaurus on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:37PM (#39375825)
Re. your third point, Confluence is also slow as shit. Using both together is like returning to the age of dial-up.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by toolslive on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:15PM (#39376340)
Not only that. Once you've battled the sucky editor and have the document in confluence, you will realize that if you export it to pdf (or word) it will look like shit. So what's the point?

"Confluence is where information goes to die"

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by erik_seaberg on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:53PM (#39376720)
My favorite is trying to figure out the subtle inflection differences between “won’t do,” “rejected,” “deprecated,” “won’t fix,” “can’t fix,” “cancelled,” “invalid,” “abandoned,” and “declined,” as well as the priority at which we aren’t doing something (um … low?)
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by emmelaich on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @07:09PM (#39377393)
I could tell when some other team were having planning meetings when Jira slowed to glacier level.

Even a small drag'n'drop resulted a vast amount of computer power grinding away.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by globular-toast on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:39PM (#39375861)
I've worked in both large and small orgs with Jira. Hate it just as much in small orgs. Maybe more even.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by colordrops on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:04PM (#39375328)
It's both.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by irrational on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:53PM (#39376062)
I love my job and the people I work with. I hate Jira with a vivid passion. It is, by far, the worst tool I have to work with. In fact, it is the only tool I hate to work with.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by tikhonj on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @04:57PM (#39376105)
I worked at a large organization and yet didn't have to put up with anything Jira-like and top-down. Ticket-based development is neither necessary nor sufficient—nor even particularly effective—for coordinating software development at scale. It's a throwback to the superficially compelling but thoroughly ineffective ideas of "scientific management".
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by mschuster91 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:00PM (#39376152)
We did the switch to Atlassian Cloud last year as there was no way to justify going for the 4x markup of a data center edition for self-hosting and oh boy, what a ride. The UI keeps changing around, it's dog slow, for some reason you can't copy a text from a ticket description because the pure act of clicking on the text will switch over to the editor that takes >10 seconds to load even on a high-power machine on a 10 GBit/s uplink...

Atlassian desperately needs to pause on new acquisitions and new features for at least two years and rework all of the products they acquired and unify them. Literally every Atlassian product offering has a different way of doing things, no consistency anywhere. Oh, and half of the functionality has no API, and there is no first party Terraform provider so you have to do everything by hand every fucking time.

The abusive workflow bullshit by clueless middle managers is another problem in itself, thankfully I'm in the lucky position to tell people "no, we won't do that".

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by uzerfcwn on Thursday February 15, 2024 @08:50AM (#39382644)
I agree. Cloud vs. Data Center is a big issue that doesn't get brought up enough when bashing Jira.

DC (and formerly Server edition) are pretty good products that do their thing fine and are fast enough for typical use. Unfortunately, Server edition was discontinued and DC is too expensive, so formerly happy developers are forced to switch to Cloud edition, which is horrendously slow. Jira Cloud also lacks some loved features, such as the plaintext comment editor [0].

[0] https://jira.atlassian.com/browse/JRACLOUD-72631

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by zozbot234 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:35PM (#39376534)
JIRA is a silly proprietary system, there's just no clearly stated case case for using it when we've got open alternatives like Phorge (née Phabricator) that also see wide-ranging use.
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by mac-mc on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @05:41PM (#39376581)
At my last large tech company we moved from Phabricator to JIRA. It was a global downgrade for actual users through and through. Engineering hated it, usage of ticket tracking went down a lot because nobody wanted to interact with that crappy tool. A good chunk of team's tasks just went into more informal google docs, sheets & slack channel bots as a result and the teams responsible for managing the tool had a hard time getting real adoption.

We were forced to get off of Phabricator because it was abandoned, but JIRA was still a downgrade in every way. Linear will eat JIRAs lunch and in a decade, it's going to go the way of HipChat as the thing that everyone used but nobody talks about.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by jjav on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @06:59PM (#39377306)
> I always wonder how much of this sort of thing is disdain for the specific tool vs. disdain for what working in a mid-to-large org. is like and the overhead it usually brings with it.

I used to work in a largish public company (40K+ people). They had a wonderfully functional and flexible bug tracking system.

So no, at least in my experience one can be in a large org and enjoy your bug tracking tool, nothing to do with the overhead of a large org.

But jira, it is beyond awful.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by warbaker on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @07:00PM (#39377313)
What was the tool?
Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by jjav on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @07:45PM (#39377692)
A custom tool built in-house.

The current era really overestimates the benefit of using third-party cookie cutter tools. Yes they save on development cost of course. But you're stuck with something that has a million complexities you don't need and that is mostly terrible for everyone. So you pay in an infinite stream of small annoyances which add up.

There's a lot of value in building in-house tools targeted to work exactly like your team works with zero extra complexity.

And look at all the years-and-years-and-years-old jira feature requests that atlassian never bothers to implement and you have to suffer with mediocre workarounds. With an in-house tool you change it in an afternoon to do exactly what you need.

It's not for every company but companies of enough size to support building in-house tools should really give it more consideration.

Re:I Fucking Hate Jira (2022) by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @07:48PM (#39377720)
A while back I tried an informal poll on HN, something like "What is the software you hate the most?" The majority of respones said "Jira".

I was thinking maybe I could help, that the software was somethig I myself had used at some point. But I have never used Jira and when I investigated what it was, I had the same thought: I thought that in this case the software is probably only part of the problem.