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Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by cwkoss on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @08:12PM (#36500530)
Is there anything good samaritan citizens can do locally (on a standard residential lot) to improve the particulate pollution levels outdoors around their house? (and possibly their neighbors' too?).

What are the effects of trees/plants on PM2.5 pollution? Are there plants that catch more? Do damp leaves catch more?

Does watering plants with a mist pull extra microparticles out of the air vs a stream? (if so, Do plants mind or benefit from the extra stuff in their water?)

Are there any "permaculture" solutions for air filtration? Could a filter caked with pm2.5 black carbon and whatnot be useful for anything else? Can I manufacture a filter that will reduce pm2.5 using home grown plant materials?

What if I converted a wall of my shed into all filtration material, made it airtight, and pushed air out the other side of the shed under solar power? How would 100sqft of filter give flexibility of filter media?

If I made a giant/parallelized bong in my backyard that constantly pulled air through water to try to catch microparticles, how big would it have to be to have an appreciable effect?

[dead]
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by imrehg on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @08:52PM (#36500859)
"Let me ChatGPT that for you" reaction is likely the new "Let me Google that for you".
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ShakataGaNai on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @08:57PM (#36500893)
Except with google you might get an authoritative source... where as you have no idea if ChatGPT is hallucinating or just plain wrong.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by cwkoss on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @02:14AM (#36502933)
Fwiw: I did some searching and pine had the strongest effect on pm2.5 in the study I found.

I found the answer moderately useful.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by aidenn0 on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @08:47PM (#36500819)
Don't use leaf blowers; those are a huge source of outdoor particulates.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by Analemma_ on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @09:06PM (#36500961)
Basically don't use anything with a two-stroke engine, they are horrible for the environment. There's an astonishing-but-true fact that California's leaf blowers make more particulate pollution than all the cars and trucks in the state put together because two-strokes are so dirty.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by cyberax on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @09:31PM (#36501154)
Two-stroke engines are bad not only for the environment, but also for the people who operate them.

These engines not only produce a ton of particulate emissions, but also a lot of half-burned and unburned hydrocarbons. Including formaldehyde, benzene, and all kinds of other craps.

You can at least filter out particulates with a N99 mask, but it does nothing against hydrocarbons.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by armada651 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:07AM (#36502161)
Not to mention that a lot of people use them without hearing protection and given how notoriously loud they are they're also giving themselves hearing damage.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by joelcollinsdc on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:27PM (#36501902)
So a four stroke leaf blower would be ok?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by aidenn0 on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:46PM (#36502026)
All that weight would probably be bad for your back...
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by aerio on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:10AM (#36503717)
That's why I dual wield two normal leaf blowers instead!
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by enragedcacti on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @10:59AM (#36507444)
they are much better than a 2-stroke but still far worse than e.g. a modern vehicle because the emissions technology is either much much simpler or not present at all.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by toomuchtodo on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @09:17PM (#36501057)
Sales of new gas mowers and leaf blowers are banned in California starting July 1st, 2024. "As California Goes, so Goes the Nation."

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...

> Brand new gas-powered leaf blowers and lawn mowers will soon become scarce in California. In October 2021, Gov. Gavin Newsom signed a law banning the sale of gas-powered lawn mowers and leaf blowers, as well as any other equipment using small off-road engines, also known as SOREs. These engines traditionally power equipment used in lawn care and landscaping.

> Small engine-based tools are a surprisingly large source of carbon emissions and air pollution. According to the California Air Resources Board, just one hour of gas leaf blower use is the equivalent of driving 1,100 miles. Running a gas lawn mower for the same period equates to a 300-mile drive.

https://www.cnet.com/home/yard-and-outdoors/loud-gas-belchin...

https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/offroad/sm_en_fs.pdf

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/04/30/gas-le... ("Gas leaf blowers and lawn mowers are shockingly bad for the planet. Bans are beginning to spread.")

(electric landscaping tools are at parity, check out the EGO brand for an example: https://egopowerplus.com/)

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by throwoutway on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @09:53PM (#36501326)
The person you are replying to did not mention gas (just lead blowers in general) but your post seems to only focus on gas leaf blowers. California did not ban electric leaf blowers did they?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by toomuchtodo on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @09:59PM (#36501372)
Electric leaf blowers are annoying, but not burning fuel with zero emissions controls such that gas landscaping appliances are, hence bans on the gas versions causing wild amounts of pollution for the amount of fuel burned.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by jrflowers on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @10:51PM (#36501689)
What’s the difference between electric and gas leaf blowers with regard to particulate matter in the air?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by nelsondev on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @10:59PM (#36501734)
The gas leaf blower also is also burning gas, and hence adding that particulate matter in addition to what gets stirred up.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by jrflowers on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:18PM (#36501849)
That makes sense. I am curious as to how big the difference the power source makes for a machine that’s purpose-made to kick up particulate matter up into the air from the ground.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by roywiggins on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:46PM (#36502030)
2-stroke engines in general are awful for air quality.

https://phys.org/news/2014-05-two-stroke-scooters-super-poll...

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by jrflowers on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:51AM (#36502456)
I believe that! I am curious as to how big the difference the power source makes for a machine that’s purpose-made to kick up particulate matter up into the air from the ground though.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ztrww on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:27AM (#36502643)
Did anyone imply there was a difference (besides electric ones possibly being less powerful)?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by jrflowers on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:31AM (#36502661)
If you scroll up this thread you will see where the discussion began.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by Fomite on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:53AM (#36502793)
Purely anecdote, but my neighbor uses a gas leaf blower and we use an electric one, and our yards are broadly similar. The difference is notable.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by jrflowers on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @03:12AM (#36503344)
How?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by 83 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:39AM (#36506286)
The electric blower yard probably still has leaves on it.

I'm all for electrifying yard tools, but electric blowers still aren't anywhere near a high end Stihl or Husqvarna in performance.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by Fomite on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:07PM (#36509359)
We both kick up a fair amount of fines, but there's also a noticeable amount of fairly dirty output from the gas blower.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by comedowntous on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @03:54AM (#36503604)
It's in that CARB report posted above: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/2018-11/Health%20...

Compare Table 3 to Table 5. PM emissions from exhaust are on the order of 1 gram per hour. Whereas fugitive dust emissions, depending on the surface, are 100s or 1000s of grams per hour.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by aidenn0 on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:12PM (#36501809)
It's not just burning gas; as a 2-stroke engine, it's burning a gas/oil mixture that is even dirtier than burning just gasoline.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by aidenn0 on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:45PM (#36502017)
I found a CARB report[1] that addresses this. TL;DR: nobody's directly measured the particulates ("fugitive dust") kicked up, but the estimates made from back-calculating measurements of dust present on road services suggest that the majority of PM10 and PM2.5 from a leaf blower are due to fugitive dust, and therefore will still be present in electric leaf blowers.

There isn't a lot of data on how much the chemical makeup of particulates affects health, nor on what the makeup of particulates likely to be kicked up by a leaf-blower are. At least some of the particulates from two-stroke engine emissions are known to be really bad (e.g. partially combusted lubricants). So the jury is out on if the particulate related health risks are dominated by the engine or the dust. If you think "all PM2.5 is bad" then it's almost certainly dominated by the dust though.

1: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/2018-11/Health%20...

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by jrflowers on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:00AM (#36503652)
Thanks!
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by adgjlsfhk1 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:13AM (#36502197)
a bunch of nitrogen oxides that are pretty bad for people, a bunch of Co2, and a bunch more noise.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by alach11 on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:01PM (#36501743)
> Small engine-based tools are a surprisingly large source of carbon emissions and air pollution... just one hour of gas leaf blower use is the equivalent of driving 1,100 miles

Perhaps this is true for certain types of air pollution, but there's no way it's true for carbon emissions. CO2 emitted has to be proportional to gasoline burned. And there's no way a leaf blower is consuming 25 gallons of gas per hour.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by bronco21016 on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:08PM (#36501786)
I’m not an expert in the chemistry at all but how does the 2-cycle oil added to the fuel contribute to carbon density of the fuel?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by margalabargala on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:46AM (#36502426)
It's denser than octane but doesn't meaningfully close the gap.

To drive 1100 miles, the commenter above gave an extremely generous 25 gallons of gas (likely closer to 40 for a non-Prius).

One gallon of gas produces about 20 pounds of CO2, which is about 73% oxygen (from the atmosphere) by weight. The remaining 27% of the weight comes from carbon.

So, one gallon of gasoline provides 20*0.27=5.4lbs of carbon to the CO2 produced. Multiply by 25, and you're looking at over 135lbs of carbon alone coming from your source when 25 gallons of gas are burned.

Considering that the amount of weight carried around by the user of a leaf blower is on the low tens of pounds, and not hundreds, it seems ludicrous to presume that a leaf blower produces anywhere near the amount of CO2 in an hour as does a car driving 1100 miles.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by Earw0rm on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @02:05AM (#36502873)
It doesn't. This is about particulate pollution and other directly toxic nasties, not CO2 or climate.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by Gordonjcp on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @03:41AM (#36503537)
It basically doesn't.

Even without the oil - 2-stroke engines will run on straight petrol, albeit briefly - they still emit an obscene amount of unburnt fuel.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by gwill on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:14PM (#36501820)
I found a 2001 study that says 1 hour of lawn mowing is equivalent to 100 miles. either a mistype, wicked game of telephone or nefarious act has taken place. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/05/010529234907.h...
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by cma on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:15AM (#36502215)
No catalytic converter and it makes sense. It is talking about traditional pollution and not CO2.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by exhilaration on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:50AM (#36502451)
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by joelcollinsdc on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:26PM (#36501893)
Yeah I am assuming that they are talking about the pollutants that are normally burned up in a catalytic converter. Still confusingly worded.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ammar2 on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:49PM (#36502049)
The source might be "A REPORT TO THE CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE ON THE POTENTIAL HEALTH AND ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS OF LEAF BLOWERS" found here: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/2018-11/Health%20...

This is the table in the source:

  +--------------------+-------------------+-------------+---------------+
  |                    | Exhaust Emissions | New vehicle | Older vehicle |
  +--------------------+-------------------+-------------+---------------+
  | Hydrocarbons       | 199.26            | 0.39        | 201.9         |
  | Carbon Monoxide    | 423.53            | 15.97       | 1310          |
  | Particulate Matter | 6.43              | 0.13        | 0.78          |
  | Fugitive Dust      | 48.6-1031         | N/A         | N/A           |
  +--------------------+-------------------+-------------+---------------+
and the accompanying text:

> Another way to visualize the data is to compare emissions for a given amount of leaf blower operation to miles traveled by car. The Air Resources Board regularly publishes such emissions benchmarks. Thus, for the average 1999 leaf blower and car data presented in Table 9, we calculate that hydrocarbon emissions from one-half hour of leaf blower operation equal about 7,700 miles of driving, at 30 miles per hour average speed. The carbon monoxide emission benchmark is signficantly different. For carbon monoxide, one-half hour of leaf blower useage would be equivalent to about 440 miles of automobile travel at 30 miles per hour average speed.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by aidenn0 on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:58PM (#36502099)
For those not reading closely note that Hydrocarbons != Carbon. A New vehicle will burn fairly completely (if you include the cat as part of the process), leaving a miniscule amount of hydrocarbons (incompletely burned fuel) and a small amount of CO. The catalytic converter will oxidize hydrocarbons, CO and NO2 leaving almost entirely N2 CO2 and H2O (and in fuels with significant sulfer, hydrogen sulfide which has its own issues).
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by Gordonjcp on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @03:40AM (#36503530)
> New vehicle will burn fairly completely (if you include the cat as part of the process), leaving a miniscule amount of hydrocarbons (incompletely burned fuel) and a small amount of CO

So will old ones, if you run them on the right fuel.

My 25-year-old Range Rover has a 4.6 litre engine adapted to run on propane which is - under the right circumstances - a *negative* emission vehicle. It can have measurably less CO and HC in the exhaust than in the intake air (city air heavily contaminated with CO and HC for example from bus engines).

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by enragedcacti on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @10:54AM (#36507346)
I've found in general people and even regulatory agencies play fast and loose with comparing GHGs and pollutants. In this case, including CO in "carbon emissions" makes the statement technically true but pretty misleading since most people see "carbon emissions" as an equivalent or shorthand to "GHG ermissions"
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by rascul on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:08PM (#36501790)
> electric landscaping tools are at parity

For most homeowners. Not for commercial usage. There's that battery charge issue still. There are workarounds that can help though.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ewoodrich on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:52AM (#36502783)
Even if gas leaf blowers weren't terrible as far as emissions they are a weekly menance for apartment dwellers so I am hoping they will be banned where I live eventually. Electric is somewhat annoying but tolerable.

A complex pays for regular landscaping services which turns into hours of painfully disruptive noise pollution often in the early hours for residents.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by foobarian on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @08:24AM (#36505383)
Electric blowers are still very loud and high pitched. My dream is an electric backpack blower with a giant squirrel cage blower powered by a low rpm brushless motor, instead of the high rpm blade fan blower like in my current handheld tool.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by 83 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:47AM (#36506408)
Ego commercial blower: 170mph 600cfm (only during turbo boost, unclear how long that can last)

Stihl gas blower: 239mph 912cfm

Not even getting into weight, cost, or refuel times - that's extremely far from parity.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by cwkoss on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @08:50PM (#36500837)
I got a rechargeable battery powered leaf blower last year and love it. Plenty powerful for my needs, and ~10 mins is almost always plenty for all I need to get stuff cleaned up.

But i suppose they might temporarily kick up a bunch of dust, regardless of power source...

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by cowsandmilk on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:20AM (#36503772)
> they might temporarily kick up a bunch of dust

To me, this is why raking just makes sense. I can’t stand the dust from leaf blowers. And often, just mowing over the leaves is adequate and better for the environment.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by cwkoss on Thursday June 29, 2023 @02:04PM (#36524313)
Yep, I only leaf blow on the sidewalks and concrete paths that get some extra grass leaking over when I mow the adjacent areas.

New thing I'm trying this year is to pull garden weeds and toss them on top of the grass right before a mow as a two-bird-with-one-stone compost in place free grass fertilizer.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by mfgs on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @10:27PM (#36501562)
Do you mean a petrol leaf blower? Because of the motor emissions or the blowing?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by aidenn0 on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:15PM (#36501831)
It's a fair question, and the answer is "I don't know." Petrol leaf blowers are typically 2-stroke engines which are incredibly polluting (even in an absolute sense compared to a modern 4-stroke engine for a mid-sized saloon). They also kick up a lot of dust. I'm not sure what the balance is. Certainly for e.g. NO2 and hydrocarbons switching to electric will be a huge win, but I'm not sure how much/long the particulates kicked up by blowing contribute.

[edit]

I found a report[1] on page 22, the median estimated "fugitive dust" emmisions of blowing on a shoulder, or curb is about 480g (1lb) of PM2.5 per hour. It does note that this is a pure calculation and not empirically tested though. The entire range of their calculations put fugitive dust as higher particulate emissions than the exhaust (though the exhaust particulate of a 3hp leaf-blower (i.e. high-powered commercial) is already nearly 2 orders of magnitude higher than a modern light-duty vehicle and a 0.8hp (i.e. typical personal-use leafblower)).

1: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/2018-11/Health%20...

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by onlyrealcuzzo on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @08:51PM (#36500848)
Get rid of your car?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by skybrian on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @09:05PM (#36500952)
A bit drastic. Avoiding driving on days when air quality is bad would also do.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by killingtime74 on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @09:29PM (#36501146)
Not being sarcastic, what level of effort are we talking about valuating clean local air at? Only actions that cause no inconvenience? Using monetary value of pollution related production vs health care costs?

It would be not that inconvenient to not drive for local trips but very inconvenient for longer trips? Or vice versa depending on where you live

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by hospitalJail on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:55AM (#36504752)
I'm an environmentalist, and I agreed with a recommendation for the 2 stroke engine thing... but when I saw someone say 'quit smoking', it made me realize how small fries I am.

People are cooking over coal/wood around the world, that is far far far worse than everything I've read(and that doesnt include industrial pollution). (Although 2 stroke engines and their byproducts are cancer causing, so... that is still valid)

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by twothamendment on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:35AM (#36507998)
There are still areas in the USA that heat their homes with wood. I live near one, luckily just far enough away that I'm not sitting in the haze of smoke. I don't know how anyone can live in this town in the winter.

As for 2-storkes, I can't stand them, but they are still a necessary evil in many situations. I have gas and electric chainsaw. The electric doesn't compare in power and capability - but it is also my favorite, so I use it when I can. I love not smelling like 2-stroke exhaust, the electric always "starts" too. Then a larger tree dies or a dozen blow down at once and I have to break out the gas saw...

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by skybrian on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:41PM (#36513011)
In my neighborhood, if we got to the point where there was a car in every garage instead of 2-4 cars per house, we'd be doing great.

(Also, if it stays in the garage most of the time, it doesn't really harm anyone. I think that's only common for retired people, though?)

I don't know how to price it. Most people don't really think about it that way.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by brewdad on Thursday June 29, 2023 @12:12AM (#36516213)
Start with the lowest hanging fruit. I’ve converted all of my lawn equipment to electric. I won’t be converting my stove or furnace anytime soon since they are both less than four years old. We became a one car family and have not had any significant problems with it.

Our next vehicle will be a full electric but that will probably be another 3-5 years unless we opt to be a one ICE, one electric car family sooner.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by lucasjans on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @09:11PM (#36501008)
That's every day in much of the world. I lived in Southeast Asia for 8 years and 9/10 days the air was unhealthy.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by mcmoor on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @10:05PM (#36501428)
I recently bought an air purifier for my house and it's constantly red when used in living room that has outside windows. In other words, air quality around my house is constantly bad. By the end i moved it to an isolated room where at least we can enjoy clean air there.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by cwkoss on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @02:08AM (#36502896)
Maybe consider a boxfan+furnace filter for the living room - if air quality is always bad you don't really need the sensor switching
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by throwaway2037 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:35AM (#36503866)
What city? It is too generic to say "Southeast Asia". Most of it is rural. And what is meant by "unhealthy"? What measurements? I cannot believe that 90% of days were unhealthy. Why? Rainy season is never polluted -- I know from experience in Hongkong and Singapore. Once a day or more, you get a huge downpour that takes most pollution out of the air. (This is partly why Seattle fairs very well in clean air measurements... it rains so damn much. Scottish cities, too.)
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by lucasjans on Saturday July 01, 2023 @11:26PM (#36557947)
Seattle's air pollution quality is so low because there's a vast ocean separating the Seattleites from the manufacturing that supplies it with new phones, appliances, furniture, clothing, building materials and just about everything from the source of the pollution.

Rain is nice, but that has very little to do with it.

The growth in moat of these countries is up so much they cant burn enough coal to keep from brown outs.

Outsourced pollution.

If you need data, just peak at a global air pollution map. Dive into the historical metrics.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by sundvor on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:21PM (#36501860)
Quite a few cars these days are electric, some of which may even be charged to a high degree by PV.

And people who drive generally have a legitimate need for one.

"Make your next car an EV" would be a better statement.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by onlyrealcuzzo on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:42PM (#36502004)
A decent amount of PM comes from tires and brake pads...
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by Nasrudith on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:12AM (#36502185)
"The free vegan snacks aren't gluten free, the bastards!". Seriously, it seems that any time there is any improvement made people complain about it more than the prior much worse state.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by sundvor on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @02:03AM (#36502861)
Yeah, I see I'm being severely downvoted to the point of (dead) for speaking to the benefit of EVs in a thread about air pollution..?

As a somewhat serious cyclist (I have 4 bikes - two for the road, two for MTB), I know which kind of car I would rather ride behind. (I have gone through a number of respro filters over the years..)

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by brenns10 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @03:03AM (#36503276)
I think especially in cities, people don't like the idea of replacing one problem with another.

Sure, ICE cars cause more air pollution than EVs. But things like public transit tend to create even less, since there's not a need to have one vehicle per person.

Since public transit makes so much sense in dense cities compared to EVs, I think a lot of the frustration and down votes you face are due to that issue: why replace one known evil with another, when we have much better options available??

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by sundvor on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:08AM (#36503702)
Thanks; good response.

Yes you got to push alternatives.

But at the same time, at least 90% of the cars - and near 100% of buses - that are still going to be sold (no matter how one might wish for new cars not to be needed) should be _electric_ ones.

I live in a sprawled out city (Melbourne, AUS), where, especially if you have kids, a car is close to a darned necessity. So those cars are still going to be sold, and far too many of them are dirty gas guzzlers.

I like to walk and ride as much as possible, but after making the move to an EV myself (near 100% solar powered for half the year, then coal the other half - still way better than oil if you look at the whole CO² emission chain) it's amazing how sensitive I've gotten to petrol and diesel fumes.

We have one electric bus in my area. Absolutely awesome to see this first step. Yet a significant number of our trains are still using diesel - their fumes on that (Spencer Street) main connecting station are ridiculously toxic. There's just so much work to do..

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by paconbork on Thursday June 29, 2023 @04:13PM (#36526062)
Why do you assume that public transit produces substantially less particulate emissions than EVs? I'm sure you've smelled ICE busses before, but even if you upgrade those to electric, Electric busses are very heavy, leading to an outsized impact on road/tire/break wear: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35780985/

Subways have wear-related particulate emissions too, with the added disadvantage of them being less easy to vent: https://nyulangone.org/news/pre-covid-19-subway-air-polluted...

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by adgjlsfhk1 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:20AM (#36502246)
Specifically, the EV should probably be a cargo bike. A bucket bike can replace something like 85% of car journeys (commutes, groceries, kids to school, etc) with way lower cost, upkeep cost, and emissions, and particulates than a car. Pretty much every family should have one (and rent a car for long distance stuff).
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by adrianN on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:21AM (#36502615)
I find a trailer to be more convenient than a cargo bike. Most of the time I don’t need it at all and when I need more capacity than it offers I recht a cargo bike.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by rascul on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @09:06PM (#36500964)
> If I made a giant/parallelized bong in my backyard

Can I come hang out for a bit?

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by cwkoss on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @02:07AM (#36502886)
As long as you help staple filters to the wall of my filter shed!
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by jojobas on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @09:10PM (#36500995)
There's another side to it, while pollen is larger than PM2.5, in some weather conditions (Melbourne's cool changes for one) it will burst into multiple PM2.5 fragments.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by burnished on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @10:03PM (#36501408)
I like your energy, I hope you consider applying for a research grant or maybe just asking Adam Savage nicely for money to perform some experiments.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by TuringNYC on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:22AM (#36502253)
>> Is there anything good samaritan citizens can do locally (on a standard residential lot) to improve the particulate pollution levels outdoors around their house? (and possibly their neighbors' too?).

This is a specific case, but in a mid-sized town where I lived, they opened up a BBQ restaurant with massive outdoor grills. The grills were fired up 5 times a week, evenings and afternoons. While it was fun times with friends at the restaurant, the entire neighborhood smelled of BBQ. Worse, you could literally go on the PurpleAir US map and see the giant visual of where the smoke was going.

I cant imagine how the property values fared for nearby homes.

I dont know anything about restaurant regulations, but it seems that if BBQ was allowed at this scale and allowed on a daily basis, there should be some sort of filtering requirement for exhaust. Good samaritan citizens' strongest chance for such local issues is probably voter turnout at local elections.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by redleader55 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:01AM (#36504404)
I think the source of the PM pollutant is more important than the number of particles of a specific size. For example: I don't have no data or research on how bad the smoke from the barbecue is for your health, but my intuition tells me it's probably less harmful than the smoke from an old car that needs an oil change, regardless of that the metric says about the number of particles.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by pirate787 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:30AM (#36504585)
The primary action of particulate matter is that it gets stuck in your body (and tiny PM can penetrate into the brain) and is an inflammatory irritant the rest of your life, leading to disease. It stands to reason if the PM is also a toxic particle, the impact is worse.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ImaCake on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:42AM (#36504662)
Most particles can be removed by your immune system. Things like asbestos are bad specifically because the kinds of particles asbestos becomes are very difficult to phagacytose (and remove).
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by mschuster91 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:12AM (#36504480)
> Is there anything good samaritan citizens can do locally (on a standard residential lot) to improve the particulate pollution levels outdoors around their house? (and possibly their neighbors' too?).

The most important thing is: Don't use any kind of 2-stroke gas engine powered appliances. Leaf blowers, bush trimmers, mowers, cheap electricity generators... they aren't covered by usual emission regulations and thus have barely any exhaust filtering, leading to emission of insane amounts of all kinds of toxins. On top of that they're all very bad for the local ecosystem - mowed grass tends to dry out faster, leaf blowing (or removal in general) kills safe spaces for small lifeforms.

The next major pollutant are all sorts of furnaces and cooking appliances. Be it a wood pellet, gas or oil heating system, a gas stove, or the once-every-weekend BBQ... it all shows up on air quality sensors. Get a heat pump for heating (there are bi-directional air conditioners that can heat in the winter and cool in the summer), take care to not overheat oils in pans (decomposing oils are quite toxic!), and for heavens sake cut back on the BBQs if you value your lungs and those of your neighbours.

The last part is to quit smoking.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by stewx on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:52AM (#36506489)
Not mowing your lawn and stopping cooking on an outdoor grill are non-starters for most people.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by alistairSH on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @10:25AM (#36506966)
A few points related to lawns...

The stereotypical American lawn is a fairly new thing, basically "created" by Scott and the rest of the fertilizer industry in the 60s and 70s. Prior to this, lawns were mixed plants, and not expected to be nearly 100% grass. They were generally more drought tolerant and needed less maintenance (both water, fertilizer, and mowing).

Electric mowers (battery) are sufficiently good today that we really should phase out the sale of gas mowers. At least for "normal" sized lawns. Mechanical push mowers are also an option for small enough lawns.

And aside from inertia, there's no good reason that most yards need to be predominantly grass lawn. I've found that, at least for my small yard, hardscape, shrubs, and other plants are lower maintenance (twice annual pruning, monthly weeding during the grow season). I only water when I add/replace plants or particularly hot/dry weeks. And I've cut out all fertilizer. I've cut the amount of grass by about half and will likely cut it by another half at the end of this season. All my lawn tools are now battery powered as well.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by namdnay on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @10:07AM (#36506717)
you can mow a lawn with either an electric mower or an unpowered mower, the former can be found for any surface, the latter are great for surfaces up to about 100m2
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by brewdad on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:55PM (#36516128)
My Costco had an electric riding mower on display this week. I didn’t stop to look over all of the specs since my lawn isn’t anywhere near big enough to need one but it appears having too big of a lawn isn’t an excuse anymore when it comes to electric mowers.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by cwkoss on Thursday June 29, 2023 @01:57PM (#36524173)
I love electric mowers (all of my yard tools are now electric actually)

I have an electric push mower for our home - we have probably 1500 sqft of grass currently (including the strip in front of our house that might technically be owned by the city) a single charge can mow everything if the grass isn't too long/wet, but there is usually a mow or two after spring rains that has to be done in two parts.

I also have a "cabin" (hopefully future farm) property that was horse pasture a decade ago. My splurge toy last year was an electric riding mower - ours is greenworks - and it is really a joy. Can mow 1-2 acres on a single charge (depending on grass height/dampness). It's so fun my wife and I have actually had an argument about who 'gets' to mow next.

Perhaps my favorite thing about electric mowers is they literally start with a button. Pull starting sucks, especially when it isn't working.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by mschuster91 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:07AM (#36507569)
Many Americans (and for that matter, many people in other Western countries) won't have another choice. Green, maintained laws aren't sustainable any more - they use too much water, provide zero habitat for insects and other wildlife, and mowing during times of drought is harmful for the grass as well [1]. Regular BBQs aren't sustainable as well, the amount of water, crops and land used for feeding cattle is just way too high.

The problem is that there are political parties that make a political platform out of green lawns and BBQs all while knowing that they're deluding their voters and sending them off to catastrophe.

[1] https://www.rhs.org.uk/lawns/drought-care

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by weberer on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:57AM (#36506569)
>Be it a wood pellet, gas or oil heating system, a gas stove, or the once-every-weekend BBQ... it all shows up on air quality sensors.

Wood and charcoal, yes. But natural gas and propane are clean burning. The difference between them are several orders of magnitude.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by mschuster91 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @10:55AM (#36507369)
For heating system, you're assuming that the burner unit is regularly maintained (i.e. cleaned of soot) which is a pretty far stretch - most people don't do anything until the unit breaks down, usually because the flame-out protection sensor is so covered in soot that it can't detect the presence of the flame any more.

For stoves, gas stoves are being banned for new construction because they don't burn as cleanly as once thought [1].

For BBQs the heat source used doesn't matter (with the exception that coal units should never ever be used indoors), they all emit tons of toxic and highly odorious particles from all the oil and fats decomposing.

[1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/have-a-gas-stove-how-to-...

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by enragedcacti on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @10:41AM (#36507151)
Just to put some numbers to how bad 2-strokes are:

> The two-stroke leaf blower was worse still, generating 23 times the CO and nearly 300 times more NMHC than the crew cab pickup. Let's put that in perspective. To equal the hydrocarbon emissions of about a half-hour of yard work with this two-stroke leaf blower, you'd have to drive a [Ford F150] Raptor for 3,887 miles

https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/features/emissions-test-...

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by MisterTea on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:05PM (#36509328)
I suppose it depends on where you live but in the USA at least most, if not all, mowers and generators are 4 stroke engines.

2-stroke are awful because they do not have oil sumps - the oil is mixed into the fuel and drawn into the piston through the crank case where some of the oil sticks to the moving parts to lubricate them. The rest is burnt and emitted as that awful blue smoke.

They're kinda clever as they can operate in any orientation thanks to the lack of the oil sump which makes them ideal for portable power tools which have to operate at a variety of angles. They also have no valves so are less complex and easier to maintain and have a pretty good power to weight ratio. They are valued in developing nations because of this so they are hard to get rid of.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by alistairSH on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:05PM (#36511841)
New mowers and generators are mostly 4-stroke. But anything smaller is probably 2-stroke. And, unless regulations have tightened up in the last 10-15 years, those 4-stroke mowers still don't have full emissions controls - at best they might have a "dumb" catalytic convertor (but generally not fuel-injected).
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by MisterTea on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:50PM (#36512396)
> New mowers and generators are mostly 4-stroke. But anything smaller is probably 2-stroke.

New as in the last 40-50 years? Can you please give me examples of recent 2 stroke mowers and generators available in the USA? I haven't seen a 2 stroke generator or lawnmower in all my years and I used portable generators a bunch at my old job (Coleman, Generac, Honda, etc). However Ive seen plenty of small 2 stroke motors on hand held lawn and garden tools, chain saws, boat engines and dirt bikes.

The only 2-stroke generator I can think of are those really small antique 500W generators that I think Coleman made in the 1960's or 70's?

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by MisterTea on Thursday June 29, 2023 @08:55AM (#36519742)
Ah. Import trash. It feels like this is a more recent trend - with the import floodgates fully open we are seeing the reappearance of low tech machines that were abandoned but remain popular in developing nations.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by alistairSH on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:26PM (#36528225)
Yep. Same thing in the e-bike market. So much trash on Amazon etc. They don’t pollute the air, but they have cheap batteries more prone to fire, trash brakes, etc.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by mesarvagya on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:31PM (#36508851)
> Is there anything good samaritan citizens can do locally (on a standard residential lot) to improve the particulate pollution levels outdoors around their house? (and possibly their neighbors' too?).

I would say electrifying your home would be a good first step. For example, we could replace following at home starting with:

Gas Furnace & AC -- Heat pump

Gas cooktop -- Electric cooktop

Gas Blowers, Mowers -- Electric versions of same