Probably the best thing about Dvorak (and similar layouts) is that if you want to do proper touch typing, it is quite possibly easier to learn Dvorak than to learn how to touch type QWERTY.

Touch typing QWERTY is a constant uphill battle of using your willpower to force yourself to type correctly, despite the rest of your brain claiming it isn't the optimal way to type on that layout. I don't know that your brain is right, but I don't know that it is wrong either.

When you learn Dvorak or any other similar thing, you don't have to "learn" how to touch type. You just do it, because it's optimal already. You have to learn the layout, obviously, but once having done that you couldn't hardly fail to learn touch typing and "proper" typing technique if you tried. The same uphill gradient you're fighting when trying to learn "proper" typing technique with QWERTY is now a downhill gradient.

I'd actually recommend learning Dvorak over trying to force yourself to touch-type QWERTY properly. Of course, if you don't care about that, no big deal. I'm not sure how valuable that is as a goal on its own, and it's plainly obvious many people function as highly effective office workers of all sorts, programmers and otherwise, without learning to touch type.

> QWERTY users naturally wander around and have their hands leave the home row and I'm not entirely convinced it's actually wrong.

I think you are learning it wrong. It's not hard at all to learn QWERTY with the proper training technique.

I took touch typing in High School, back in the 1980's when it was an extremely unpopular course for men (there were only two other guys in the class). Even back then I knew I was going to be doing a lot of work with computers so it made sense to take it. It turned out to be the most useful class I ever took in school by a wide margin since I've used that skill all day every day for 35 years.

It was a loooong time ago but I remember it started with lots of simple repetition. We were all using IBM selectrics and the instructor would call out "J-J-J Space, K-K-K Space, L-L-L space, sem sem sem space" etc. in a pattern around the keyboard while and we were told to avoid looking at the keyboard at all times. Eventually we would start copying simple and then longer, more complicated text, again without ever looking at the keyboard.

"I think you are learning it wrong."

Well, of course I did. I used a keyboard for many years before my formal middle school typing class and by then it was too late. My brain already knew better and typing exercises did no good because I already knew how to use the keyboard without looking.

I imagine this is the dominant case.

If you want to fix it, I recommend simply learning a sensible layout for touch typing.

You also would not have needed such a class if the keyboard was laid out in Dvorak for everybody. You wouldn't need formal training that largely only works if it is drilled into you before natural exposure to a keyboard, because your hands would just do the right thing automatically. The idea of needing a typing class would become entirely absurd; there would be no technique to teach anyone that they wouldn't simply pick up.

I also took junior high typing in the 1980s, but we used manual typewriters. There were two IBM Selectrics in the back of the class that were used by lucky students for the day.

I type with only the three inner index fingers of each hand, because the keys on the manual typewriters were hard to press.

This limits my typing speed to 60wpm. If I used all four fingers, I could probably hit 90.

I never learned to type formally and also use a limited amount of fingers. On my left hand I use my thumb+middle+index finger for everything except zaq and modifiers which I use my ring finger, and on my right hand I only use my middle and index finger for everything except for backspace/delete which I use my ring finger for. Still manage to hit 100WPM.

I was also stuck at like 50wpm and I knew it was because of using the wrong fingers for the wrong keys. Someone recommended typing.com's complete beginner lesson where they literally just walk you through which fingers to use with which keys and after completing that and 2 days of practise my speed jumped by 10wpm. Highly recommend.

> I type with only the three inner index fingers of each hand

You have a lot of index fingers. Most people only have one per hand. ;)

I had a similar beginning but using all the fingers, so I have to ask: was there something wrong with those manual typewriters, or did you just find manual typewriter keys in general hard to press?

> the three inner index fingers of each hand

Found the AI

There's no shortage of good typing-tutor software. I learned from such a program on a home computer in the early 80s, no class needed.

(I now use Dvorak. Little effect on speed, but I do feel comfier.)

> Well, of course I did. I used a keyboard for many years before my formal middle school typing class and by then it was too late. My brain already knew better and typing exercises did no good because I already knew how to use the keyboard without looking.

It’s possible that a relatively arbitrary keyboard layout would have worked for you too simply by forcing you to relearn how to type, then.

> You also would not have needed such a class if the keyboard was laid out in Dvorak for everybody

you seriously believe, without any doubt, that with a clearly labelled dvorak keyboard and no typing lessons you would not have learned to hunt-and-peck at increasingly higher speeds as you did with QWERTY, but instead put your fingers "on the home row" and used your pinkies? At a young age, we all learn the alphabet, and if the keyboard is not in alphabetic order, you are on a hunt for keys, and fingers in the home position will obscure too many key labels.

Sorry, but thinking about it for 30 seconds makes it hard for me to take your argument seriously.

Labelling the keys on the keys was the mistake. The labels should have been written on a cardboard yo put between your keyboard and your screen.

Not exactly beginner friendly though.

This thread is an amazing case study in the wide range of natural ability people have at using their hands.

I think I'd take an entire year to be able to use that!

Maybe going the opposite way would be more effective, a mirror in front of you so you can see the keys with your peripheral vision without moving your eyes.

Similar to how you can always see your fingers when typing on a phone. I can type without actively staring at the keyboard on my phone pretty well, although that may because thumbs only is just fewer points to process than ten fingers, for those of us who have trouble paying attention to multiple points at once.

"you seriously believe, without any doubt, that with a clearly labelled dvorak keyboard and no typing lessons you would not have learned to hunt-and-peck at increasingly higher speeds as you did with QWERTY, but instead put your fingers "on the home row" and used your pinkies?"

Yes.

Before I further argue with you, a simple question. I've learned Dvorak and been using it for years. Have you tried anything other than QWERTY for long enough to learn it? I am a hunt and peck QWERTY user and I touch type Dvorak. I've spent WAY more time formally trying to touch type QWERTY; I spent basically zero with Dvorak. (Obviously a lot of time to learn the layout. But I made zero extra effort to "touch type".)

What you believe to be a fundamental aspect of typing may be merely an accident of a keyboard layout that penalizes "proper" typing. To type "properly" with QWERTY takes work. To hunt and peck with Dvorak would take equal work, if not more. It is not natural with Dvorak. Why would your hands leave the home row? Only when the keys mean something other than letters entirely, like a WASD game.

why would you even need to "learn", it comes naturally?

the school I went to also tried to push some crappy "correct" way to type on everyone. The teacher was moderately embarrased when I was able to type significantly faster without looking at the keyboard, because apparantly typing fast is only possible if following some special method..

dvorak is probably better, I dont know, but I type fast enough on qwerty

> the instructor would call out "J-J-J Space, K-K-K Space, L-L-L space, sem sem sem space"

That nicely demonstrates the poor Qwerty layout. The very first keys you learn are among the least used, especially semicolon. Adding the left hand (ASDF), we can then type 44 words from /usr/share/dict/words, like "salad", "salsa", "flasks", "falls" and "alfalfa".

For Dvorak, the instructor would be calling out "H-H-H Space, T-T-T Space, N-N-N Space, S-S-S space" — and then U-E-O-A on the left hand. We can already type 467 words! So the instructor would soon be calling out "Season, Tenant, Hushes, Taunts, Outset, Sunset, Assent".

This is a good point, but what you're actually doing with exercises like this is training muscle memory. It doesn't matter if you're learning Dvorak, QWERTY or how to chisel letters into a block of marble.

The advent of computers also killed one of Dvorak's selling points, which was a lower error rate at speed. Errors on a typewriter were painful to correct and took up a lot of time, but by the 70s and 80s, even typewriters were capable of reasonably easy correction. By the time word processors kicked in, mistakes were nothing to deal with.

> That nicely demonstrates the poor Qwerty layout. The very first keys you learn are among the least used, especially semicolon

OMG no it does not, your argument is ridiculous. You have to learn all the fingers and then all the keys before you can touchtype, no matter what layout you are learning. You can't efficiently touchtype 20 letters of the alphabet then take your hands off to hunt and peck the rest on a dvorak or a qwerty.

What letter you are instructed to learn first is immaterial. (and in GP's example, since I was taught by the same system, you don't learn semicolon as your 3rd letter, he just threw that in; you learn to rhythmically intersperse pointers (index fingers) and thumbkins/space first, then you add in tall-men, interspersed, etc. then moving between rows.)

what you are trying to connect your argument to, unsucessfully, is the idea that index fingers are naturally the best typists (coordination, musculature), so "let's give them the most common letters to type", which dvorak does. But this also implies, btw, that your worst finger, pinky, will over time also get the least exercise, so the gulf between its skill and pointer's skill will grow, not shrink. (I'm not saying that's more than a 2nd order effect, just sayin, muscle memory, 10,000 hours...)

Dvorak minimises finger movement, also described elsewhere in this discussion as being comfortable and so on.

Being able to type many words from the "home" keys (AOEU HTNS) neatly demonstrates this.

He is talking about the fact that you can type so many words without even moving your hands. Dvorjak reduced the amount you move your hands and fingers to type. That reduces strain. That is the benefit of Dvorjak.

While what you're saying is true, you can only type around 800 English words on the home row using QWERTY. You can type thousands using Dvorak, so mastering the Dvorak home row would gain you more than mastering the QWERTY home row. Dvorak is simply a better-thought-out layout.

None hunt out the one ton nun.

It's a silly sentence, but that's what makes learning Dvorak so fun.

> I took touch typing in High School, back in the 1980's. Even back then I knew I was going to be doing a lot of work with computers so it made sense to take it. It turned out to be the most useful class I ever took in school by a wide margin since I've used that skill all day every day for 35 years.

Same. It's like the one high school class I use every single day. Do they even offer typing in high school anymore?

I graduated in 1999 and had to take two typing classes, one in 7th grade and one in 11th grade. Both were mostly wastes of time because I had already learned how to type.

I could type about 120-130 WPM back then and somehow, I was still required to take BOTH classes. I typically finished the work in the first ten minutes of class then studied or drew.

My family got a computer when I was about 5 and one of the first things I learned how to do was type. Having a personal computer in the late 80's still was pretty unusual. Ten years later, everyone had access to one either at home or in the school computer lab.

Probably goes under the name of "computer applications", but I sure hope so. I'm not a great typist by any means, but I did manage to get out of typing class by taking a little-advertised test. If you could manage 35 WPM, you didn't have to take it.

> I think you are learning it wrong. It's not hard at all to learn QWERTY with the proper training technique.

Eh, that's always easy to say, but I suspect it is not true.

I myself have tried several times, using several typing tutors, and I just couldn't do it. I can type without looking at the keyboard out of sheer habit, but the whole "put fingers on the home row" never clicked for me. It also, IMO, is very prone to RSI issues.

Alas, I learned to type as a kid in the 60's

I still avoid looking at the keyboard because in my head i can't find the keys, but my fingers know where to go. :)

This sounds very alluring but having to deal with setting up VIM in every environment or going to a new environment with VIM not set up sounds so painful.

I imagine the native VIM bindings would be atrociously positioned in DVORAK

> I imagine the native VIM bindings would be atrociously positioned in DVORAK

Not really. Most vim keybindings follow mnemonics (like `di"`). Dvorak still has 'jk' adjacent to each other; and `h` to the left of `l`.

There are several keyboard shortcuts which are nicer with QWERTY left-hand only: (Ctrl Z, X, C, V, S, F, W, ... T?, A).

For two-hands-on-keyboard, these are less of an issue than for keyboard+mouse workflows.

Interestingly enough, the two vim bindings you probably use most, up/down (j/k) are actually positioned right next to each other on a dvorak keyboard. The rest take a bit of getting used to. You'd be surprised how natural vim feels on a dvorak keyboard.

I use Vim and Dvorak. It only took a couple of weeks to get used to. Never felt a need to customise Vim to change any keybindings strong enough to do so. And am happy I didn’t. For all these years I’ve been using them both together with just the default key bindings.

Both vi-style and emacs-style key bindings work well under Dvorak without alteration. (Why are people capitalizing it? It's not an acronym, it's a name.)

I use VIM on Dvorak, having [shift], [:;], [q] next to each other is awesome.

Having [a], [i], [y], [p], [x] all on the left hand is also awesome. It's a bummer that [d] is on the other hand, though I could reach it in a pinch with my left hand if I need to.

I don't need the fake QWERTY arrow keys, the real arrow keys work.

The "fake" arrow keys are nice so you don't have to move your hands. They are pretty decently placed in dvorak though, so it's no issue.

My vimrc has a specific section just for handling this:

    """""""""""" DVORAK FTW LOLZ! "
    noremap d h
    noremap h j
    noremap t k
    noremap n l
    noremap k d
    noremap l n
    noremap j t
    noremap ^Wd ^Wh
    noremap ^Wh ^Wj
    noremap ^Wt ^Wk
    noremap ^Wn ^Wl
    inoremap ^] ^[A
    inoremap ð ^N

That's all I use for handling dvorak. This has been in my config since I switched to git from hg in 2007, dunno how long before that.

> I imagine the native VIM bindings would be atrociously positioned in DVORAK

This is why I don't use vim; I had been touch-typing in Dvorak for years by the time I encountered it, and vim's layout felt like it would require a painful degree of brute memorization.

I know maybe 0.5 percent of what vim (neovim these days) can do and between that and a sane config my text editing skills have gotten at least 4 times better compared to a regular text editor. You can just learn the things that matter to you plus how to save and exit.

It's been years since I last used Vim (happy Emacs user now), but I don't see much of an issue, j and k are still next to each other and for moving in a line f, F, t, and T are nicer. Also solidus, of course.

I'm not 100% sure you're right, but I'm one who did not touch type QWERTY properly. It could be because of the reasons you stated, or because I learned to type on a keyboard myself, not even knowing I should be using touch type. And I found that learning touch typing together with Dvora was great, like you say. It felt very natural with Dvorak, but I don't think the touch typing I learned made me touch type Qwerty properly.

I think there's something to be said about starting with a clean slate on the keyboard layout so you don't have to unlearn old bad habits in the process. For me learning Dvorak had the double benefit of making me type 100% correctly with the new layout. I'm really not sure I would have been motivated to do that if I decided to stick with Qwerty. Getting two comfort improvements with one training period makes it more worthwhile

Are you able to have all your normal keyboards as dvorak? I have thought about trying to switch. But I use a few different keyboards in my day and it would be a real problem for other people if the keycaps didn't match what was on the keyboard. I also think my fingers would get confused about what letter is where when switching.

I've been typing Dvorak for nearly twenty years now. I decided to learn when my programming job turned into an offshore team management job, so wanted to make it more interesting.

Initially looking down at the Qwerty labelled keyboard would totally mess me up, so I had try really hard not to look down

After about a month I could look down on occasion, realise the caps were no help and then continue on

Because I would switch back to Qwerty whenever anyone would come over to my PC, my brain then decided the presence of a person was a key to flip to Qwerty, which was annoying for a while, as whenever anyone would come near I'd lose the ability to type properly.

After the second month I would look down and I was sort of 'see' both characters at the same time: the actual keycap with my eyes and the Dvorak keys with my mind. Was very trippy and a bit difficult to properly explain.

After another month or so, that went away and then I can look at the Qwerty keys and I just sorta ignore them unless I made an effort to read them. My brain has learnt to not read them, if that makes sense. That's still the state now, many years later.

I can still type reasonably fast on Qwerty too if I need to, but it takes me a minute to adjust.

At home I have some blank keyboards I bought, partly to reduce confusion and partly because I think they look cool, but I really couldn't care less any more what the keyboards are labelled with as I rarely look at them.

I use Vim using the original bindings, hjkl are not so badly placed: h and l are still left and right of each other.

I'm actually now debating setting up a stegography keyboard, partly for another amusing brain rewiring exercise, and just because I like geeky things.

This self analysis is - assuming it's all correct - a very interesting capability that you have.

I've also used for dvorak for a long time...over 15 years. I've never changed keycaps. If you're looking at your fingers while typing qwerty, learning to type dvorak on a qwerty keyboard might just be useful in that it will force you to stop looking at your keyboard and you'll find a speed up in typing just from that!

For me the learning process was very similar to learning a foreign language. At first it was hard, but once I started to get fluency in dvorak, typing in qwerty was hard for a while...but then at some point my qwerty typing ability came back and switching between the two layouts is as easy as switching computer or human languages. (when you know them fluently).

To address your fear, yes, there will a period in the learning process where your fingers get confused switching back and forth but once you get past that it goes away and switching becomes second nature.

Get good enough touch typing dvorak you don't need to seethe keys so typing on a qwerty keyboard isn't an issue. These days it's not the letters I ever have to personally look at the keys for but the random symbols I don't use often enough to have memorized. Sadly some of those move around too.

As a colemak user, I have the same flow. I used to have a keyboard that had blank keycaps, but that isn't kind to the rest of the family that uses the computer. :D

Numbers, amusingly, can mess me up.

I have literally just learnt about colemak from these comments. I suffer from RSI and have tried Dvorak in the past, but as a qwerty touch typist found it too different.

How long did it take you to learn colemak? I guess if you still use it you find it better than qwerty?

Not OP but: I’ve been using Colemak for 10+ years at this point.. I switched in the middle of a semester while getting my CS degree to A) learn to actually touch type and B) maybe help prevent RSI issues cause I knew I was gonna be programming for a while (and I have trash typing posture).

It’s a struggle for maybe a month or two completely upending your muscle memory.. but retaining the locations of AZXCV from QWERTY did help a lot with transitioning. The hardest part for me was how S is moved one character over to where D is (took a while before I stopped making S related mistake..).

I think I practiced typing every day deliberately for a few months until I didn’t feel like I had to consciously think about it anymore and was up to ~80WPM again. No regrets here.. and it’s always amusing watch people use my computer at first

I learned Colemak in a long weekend "cold turkey". I wasn't quite as fast after that weekend, but I felt so much better and more comfortable after just the weekend. (I was in grad school and in pain and knew I was probably weeks or months from an RSI surgery if I didn't change something.)

The lesson plan I was using followed home row order and I knew I was "home" in Colemak in the first lessons because even in the first four "main finger" home row keys you start by typing entire, real English words, some of which can be quite long such as Tennessee. (That was always a problem for me in grade school QWERTY lessons was how much home row exercises were garbage and nonsense words.) I feel like that also added to the feeling that learning Colemak was fast and just took then one dedicated long weekend.

I honestly don't remember how long it took. I know it took a couple of tries, but when I went "all in" it didn't take long. My speed is still not fully up to where I was, but I haven't been trying to improve. Specifically, I got up to 70ish and then just stopped caring.

I'd hesitate to say I notice much of any difference. It makes me a little happy to have made the change. But, in the same way that moving a mouse to my off hand makes me happy. And is something I do every so often.

I learned colemak for the same reason (RSI) but it didn’t help much, it was especially hard because I use multiple computers, RDP and other remote management systems and sometimes other peoples computers.

I don’t know what the status is now, if all the OS have built in Colemak layouts but I don’t think they did at the time.

I got rid of RSI by using a Kinesis advantage keyboard for a year (with qwerty layout). This must have gotten rid of any bad habits I had, I focused hard on not bottoming out hard on the keys too.

After a year I switched to a topre keyboard and it hasn’t come back, it’s been over 10yrs.

I use Colemak-DH and learned it through the Tarmak progression. RSI is probably the wrong reason to learn Colemak. It made little difference for me and as far as I know there is no scientific evidence that it helps.

Better: get an adjustable table and chair and ensure that they are correctly configured. Take regular breaks and do exercises. Get a keyboard that is split (to ensure that your wrists are not bent) and tented (to put our wrists at a more comfortable angle). Bonus points for column stagger. For me, switching to a Kinesis Advantage improved a lot to the point where I pretty much pain free.

(IANAD, but personal experience.)

My MS ergonomic keyboard and vertical mouse definitely help. Never tried a Kinesis advantage though. I'll try it and see how I get on.

It took me 4 weeks to get back to 50% speed. 4 months to get back to 75% speed. 4 years to type faster than Qwerty.

I'm incredibly happy with my switch. I was getting RSI pain from awkward top-to-bottom row maneuvers with Qwerty. I still have some pain, but that's mostly from using the computer far too much.

Most of the challenge is not about learning the new layout, but getting your muscle memory to forget about the old way of doing things. If I were to do it again, I'd recommend a progressive layout change; switching a single set of keys at a time. It takes longer to switch, but reduces the upfront mental load.

Thanks, that's encouraging. It's worth a go I guess. I'll probably spend 10-20 minutes per day using this [1] to progressively learn colemak-dh

[1] https://www.colemak.academy/

I found it to be more comfortable, so I stuck with it. If I could do it again though, I’d swap between the two as I learned as I’m now rather slow with qwerty.

I know what you mean, though I question how such a transition would pan out.

Any ideas of how well this tends to work as a learning strategy?

I have a friend who did it that way, but I’ve never done it myself.

Does your friend have 4 hands? If so, I would love to see 2 hands do QWERTY and 2 Colemak.

And then swap hands.

Then keyboards behind the back.

Have I taken this joke too far? Or not far enough?

I made the switch from Qwerty to Colemak over ten years ago.

How long for me to transition from being quite fast at Qwerty to being happy enough with my Colemak speed? I'd guess roughly 2 to 4 weeks. As an independent software developer and entrepreneur at the time, it worked. I was mostly writing code, not having to write some heroic quantity of emails as a manager.

In addition to the "typing feels better" benefit, I found the very process of changing to be quite beneficial in two ways:

(1) I did more thinking in advance and more planning and therefore less unnecessary typing. This was very niiice. Please imagine Borat saying it for full effect.

(2) The cognitive challenge of switching my primary mode of interaction with computers had a much broader effect on how I appreciated learning and habits in general.

Conclusion: you have should switched yesterday from Qwerty to an APL keyboard. /s

Not a Dvorak user, but I type on different language keypads a lot, both physically and on software keyboards. Your fingers get used to it within a few weeks and after a few years your brain doesn't even register the difference.

> ...different language keypads...

I found out while travelling, around 20 years ago, my (then current) SO would get frustrated with the keyboards in different languages (all over the EU). She gave up even trying to use a different keyboard and started asking me to type for her (it sucks, her being restrained like that).

I also found out that it takes me <60s to pick up the new layouts on those physical keyboards (again, European variants)

Regardless of the layout, she is always faster than me on virtual keyboards.

Dvorak user for 6+ years. Whereas I was very proficient touch-typing qwerty, that ability was lost when I learned Dvorak. It was too difficult, with too little benefit, to train myself to touch type in both formats. I ended up going all-in on Dvorak.

My keyboard [0] has software that translates from Dvorak to qwerty. So plugging the keyboard into different machines means no change for me, since most do qwerty by default.

When I use laptop keyboard, I do switch to dvorak layout.

Also, I'll mention the most interesting bit for me personally with changing has been in-person software interviews. The interviewer (future boss) gave me quite a look when he saw me start hunt-and-pecking! I should have given him some warning but wasn't thinking about it until I sat down at the keyboard. Fortunately it led to a good conversation, and after taking the few seconds to switch keyboard formats on the test machine I was back to full speed (unnecessarily extra full speed to impress).

> it would be a real problem for other people if the keycaps didn't match...

If you're concerned about other people, use qwerty keycaps and just ignore for yourself. It's also possible to have blank keycaps. I have blanks because they were the only sculpted option at the time for the keyboard I wanted. Along with the ortholinear layout I get some weird looks sometimes, the keyboard is just a blank regular grid of buttons, doesn't really look quite normal.

[0] Ergodox-EZ (old style, not sold anymore) https://ergodox-ez.com/

The best touch typing doesn't look at the keyboard at all, so it has more often felt like a benefit that the keys don't match what I type. (I sometimes feel like I should apologize to grade school teachers that tried to impart that lesson at too young an age to me when teaching QWERTY typing and I'd complain when they tried to block the keyboard from view.)

Having QWERTY key caps is even sometimes still useful for hunt and peck when an app (often a game) uses the wrong system library for keyboard input and is accidentally hard-coded to QWERTY input.

If other people need to use my computer it is very easy to set up profiles that default still to QWERTY or to temporarily shift to QWERTY for their interaction. (The default Windows shortcut key to switch between installed layouts is Left CTRL+SHIFT. It's very easy to switch to/from QWERTY with that quick shortcut.)

When I was learning dvorak (more than a decade ago) I bought a cheap keyboard at a garage sale and rearranged the keys. An easier approach is just to get stickers.

I used that trainer keyboard for a summer, until my typing muscle memory was updated to dvorak.

Since then, I don't look at my keyboards while typing, so the fact that the keys are labeled for qwerty doesn't really matter.

I'm in a funny situation that at my desktop I've been using a Kinesis dvorak keyboard for over 20 years, but on laptops or other random computers I use qwerty. My brain is totally bought in on the different layouts, I don't even have to think about it. It's too much of a hassle to manage to reconfigure all of them to dvorak, and then no one else in the family would be able to use them either. An extra complication is that I also sometimes use a Swedish keyboard to type åäö and on a dvorak I have no idea where they would end up.

Perhaps it would pay off to standardize... But like someone else said, the letters aren't the problem, it's all the symbols that you almost never use that become impossible if they aren't labeled.

I did the same kind of code heatmap (only for querty) but never made a good implementation that accounts for autocomplete. The symbol characters are already much more heavily used than the abc but the real numbers are probably much worse.

> output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think

It's hard to think while typing so the less time I spend typing the more time I have for thinking. Having said that I'm a qwerty user - it took me a lot of time (may be 100 hours) to learn touch typing and I don't have time to repeat the same with dvorak.

Same here, I learned how to touch type years before I heard about Dvorak and found it very difficult to switch so I'm still using qwerty.

Hmm I never consciously learned to touch type, just got into it in time. Not being an actual practiced touch typist, I use like 3 fingers on each hand on average. Last time I took a speed test i could do like 50-60 wpm.

Thing is, this speed is more than enough for a developer. What do you write? Code and some communication with your co workers. In both cases you need to think about it, except the rare cases where you churn out yet another for loop.

I dont touch type in a proper way most of the time I'm typing with little more than three fingers plus a thumb (two fingers plus a thumb on my dominant hand, and one finger on my non-dominant), but I still manage about 80 WPM on a QWERTY keyboard without looking at the keyboard. When I switch to a full size Model M type, I do use more digits, but not alot more.

Same experience for me with Colemak. My wife at one point got curious enough to try typing a few sentences on my machine (with me reading out which finger to move how to get the right letters) and even she had to admit it felt very relaxing compared to what she's used to. (But not enough that she's willing to relearn...)

I type between 80-120 wpm with reasonable accuracy on qwerty and I feel super slow compared to the pace of thinking.

It's a constant source of stress. I'm only ever comfortable if I force myself to think slower.

> It's a constant source of stress. I'm only ever comfortable if I force myself to think slower.

I have some questions:

1. From a psychological point of view, have you explored ways of coping with this stress? What are your expectations? Do you know why you have the stress? Is about results? Is it about fluidity / flow / fluency? Something else?

2. This may be obvious, but I want to make sure I ask the question to make it really concrete: is one of your goals to transfer your thinking directly to the computer as quickly as possible?

3. Would you be willing to reframe your goal? Is it ok and perhaps even useful to think slower, without framing it as "forcing myself to think slower".

3A. Maybe you could reframe this process as not simply thinking slower but also allocating some of your mental processing to summarization and translation?

3B. No knock against your brain, but how do you actually measure your thinking speed, error rate, and latency relative to typing?

3C. There are a lot of counterintuitive things happening in the brain when you dig into the neuroscience. Some experiments show that our conscious mind lags some of our decisions. I say this to at least put a little doubt in your mind that your thinking is happening the way you think it is. I would not be shocked if your brain fires motor control circuits to cause your fingers to type before you are consciously aware of it.

3D. I would guess that fast typists are not consciously aware of all their key-by-key finger motions. I have not read this yet, but it seems relevant: "Hierarchical control of cognitive processes: The case for skilled typewriting." by Logan and Crump, 2011. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2011-04906-001

4. What technologies and/or methods have you considered?

5. Are you familiar with a steno machine (aka stenotype machine / shorthand machine / stenograph)? Might it work for you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype

6. Have you discussed this with others with similar goals? Have you read "Quest for a fully deterministic keyboard shorthand system" https://www.reddit.com/r/shorthand/comments/3ul9y3

> how fast we can think [...] an analysis of one of our code bases

Well, with coding that's certainly true. I can spend all day trying to come up with a dozen lines of code. Input speed is not the barrier there. But for writing English prose, at around 90 wpm, my fingers are often lagging behind what I want to say. People can reach short bursts when speaking as fast as 300 wpm. When I get such bursts of thought, it can be hard to hold on to the end of it while I'm still typing the beginning.

You want to be able to follow speaking pace? Learn steno, it is made for that. https://www.openstenoproject.org/plover/

How did you solve the Shortcuts problem? I really gave Dvorak a good shot, but it completely failed when I was using auto cad CAD.

I use a gaming mouse and assign common shortcuts to the extra buttons.

One nice advantage of mac os is the built-in Dvorak-Qwerty layout which retains Qwerty shortcuts. You need an AHK script to achieve the same result on Windows.

What about Colemak?

Also, as a gamer, I'm concerned about keyboard mappings in games if I switch from Qwerty- I heard bad things, although games really should have switched from a key encoding mapping to a key location mapping a long time ago.

Some games do use key location. Factorio, for example, uses key location. It's really hit or miss. I am not sure what determines whether they use key location or not.

Edit: Basically, the key mappings would automatically change WASD to WARS for Colemak.

When I started using Dvorak, it was because I found that I could make my typing significantly quieter with Dvorak than with QWERTY, likely because of the reduced movement. As an undergraduate at a time when almost no one else had started typing notes in class, I found that there was a substantial reduction in how noticeable my typing was to others when I switched to Dvorak.

Another angle is comfort and ergonomics. Less stress and strain on the wrists and fingers using less contortions to get where you need to go.

The issue I have with Dvorak is that it pushes many common programmer keys, like [], <>, and ; waaaay out to very unergonomic locations.

,.<> are slightly more convenient than on Qwerty, ;: is obviously worse but hardly "way out" (it's where Z is on Qwerty).

[]{} are indeed further out, but instead we have -_=+ closer. Once we add in all the English I type, file-names, U_R_L?s, --command --flags, /directories/, I think, if anything, the rearrangement is an advantage.

> analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character

if your code base is C, is dvorak going to help with all the [^A-Za-z]* punctuation characters? That's what slows me down.

These characters/keys are in better positions on Dvorak: '" ,< .> -_ +=

These are in worse positions: [{ ]} ;: /?

And this doesn't move: \| `~ and the punctuation over the numbers.

[]{} is significantly worse, equally -_=+ is significantly better, as these keys are swapped. Making an effort to learn and touch-type these keys is pretty similar on either layout.

It's just a matter of learning it. If you really want to, you can customize a keyboard layout on any OS and arrange these keys how you see fit, but then you lose any compatibility advantage of sticking with plain Dvorak.

I use the programmer variant of dvorak. The number keys are 'swapped' with symbols, so you press shift to access numbers. Given that most programmers (should) use symbols more often than numbers, this is highly convenient. Strongly recommend checking it out.

For the record, I mostly use python nowadays but it's still a big improvement over mashing shift all day.

I came to say this. It's not speed, it's comfort. I've been using Dvorak on my Kinesis Advantage since mid 90'es [1]. I don't actually think Dvorak is the best possible layout, but as the video points out, we are already in the realm of diminishing returns.

[1] I still use Qwerty on non-Kinesis keyboards and this fact is enough for my muscle memory to eliminate any mental overhead of switching.

Long-time Dvorak user, and I 100% agree with this. Dvorak is much less taxing on your body.

I moved to dvorak to help with my RSI. I don't know if it actually helped (it's been decades since I used QWERTY on a keyboard for more than a minute), but typing speed was irrelevant to me.

I've long fantasized about switching to Dvorak just to confuse people who want to use my computer.

I switched to Colemak a long time ago (from qwerty) and it helped with the RSI issues I was having. Definitely more ergonomic.

Using QUERTY after colemak is like being retarded, so after trying alternate keyboard layouts for a while, I'm just doing a hardpass on anything not QUERTY until we get rid of keyboards entirely.

I just don’t understand that metric or why Dvorak people keep using it. Yes my fingers might travel less, but do we know that moving your hands less leads to a reduction in pain and injury? I’d argue having them constantly in the same position might also do that.

And what about comfort? My index finger is stronger than my pinky; id much rather move further with my index finger than my pinky..