I've been typing Dvorak for nearly twenty years now. I decided to learn when my programming job turned into an offshore team management job, so wanted to make it more interesting.

Initially looking down at the Qwerty labelled keyboard would totally mess me up, so I had try really hard not to look down

After about a month I could look down on occasion, realise the caps were no help and then continue on

Because I would switch back to Qwerty whenever anyone would come over to my PC, my brain then decided the presence of a person was a key to flip to Qwerty, which was annoying for a while, as whenever anyone would come near I'd lose the ability to type properly.

After the second month I would look down and I was sort of 'see' both characters at the same time: the actual keycap with my eyes and the Dvorak keys with my mind. Was very trippy and a bit difficult to properly explain.

After another month or so, that went away and then I can look at the Qwerty keys and I just sorta ignore them unless I made an effort to read them. My brain has learnt to not read them, if that makes sense. That's still the state now, many years later.

I can still type reasonably fast on Qwerty too if I need to, but it takes me a minute to adjust.

At home I have some blank keyboards I bought, partly to reduce confusion and partly because I think they look cool, but I really couldn't care less any more what the keyboards are labelled with as I rarely look at them.

I use Vim using the original bindings, hjkl are not so badly placed: h and l are still left and right of each other.

I'm actually now debating setting up a stegography keyboard, partly for another amusing brain rewiring exercise, and just because I like geeky things.

This self analysis is - assuming it's all correct - a very interesting capability that you have.

I've also used for dvorak for a long time...over 15 years. I've never changed keycaps. If you're looking at your fingers while typing qwerty, learning to type dvorak on a qwerty keyboard might just be useful in that it will force you to stop looking at your keyboard and you'll find a speed up in typing just from that!

For me the learning process was very similar to learning a foreign language. At first it was hard, but once I started to get fluency in dvorak, typing in qwerty was hard for a while...but then at some point my qwerty typing ability came back and switching between the two layouts is as easy as switching computer or human languages. (when you know them fluently).

To address your fear, yes, there will a period in the learning process where your fingers get confused switching back and forth but once you get past that it goes away and switching becomes second nature.

Get good enough touch typing dvorak you don't need to seethe keys so typing on a qwerty keyboard isn't an issue. These days it's not the letters I ever have to personally look at the keys for but the random symbols I don't use often enough to have memorized. Sadly some of those move around too.

As a colemak user, I have the same flow. I used to have a keyboard that had blank keycaps, but that isn't kind to the rest of the family that uses the computer. :D

Numbers, amusingly, can mess me up.

I have literally just learnt about colemak from these comments. I suffer from RSI and have tried Dvorak in the past, but as a qwerty touch typist found it too different.

How long did it take you to learn colemak? I guess if you still use it you find it better than qwerty?

Not OP but: I’ve been using Colemak for 10+ years at this point.. I switched in the middle of a semester while getting my CS degree to A) learn to actually touch type and B) maybe help prevent RSI issues cause I knew I was gonna be programming for a while (and I have trash typing posture).

It’s a struggle for maybe a month or two completely upending your muscle memory.. but retaining the locations of AZXCV from QWERTY did help a lot with transitioning. The hardest part for me was how S is moved one character over to where D is (took a while before I stopped making S related mistake..).

I think I practiced typing every day deliberately for a few months until I didn’t feel like I had to consciously think about it anymore and was up to ~80WPM again. No regrets here.. and it’s always amusing watch people use my computer at first

I learned Colemak in a long weekend "cold turkey". I wasn't quite as fast after that weekend, but I felt so much better and more comfortable after just the weekend. (I was in grad school and in pain and knew I was probably weeks or months from an RSI surgery if I didn't change something.)

The lesson plan I was using followed home row order and I knew I was "home" in Colemak in the first lessons because even in the first four "main finger" home row keys you start by typing entire, real English words, some of which can be quite long such as Tennessee. (That was always a problem for me in grade school QWERTY lessons was how much home row exercises were garbage and nonsense words.) I feel like that also added to the feeling that learning Colemak was fast and just took then one dedicated long weekend.

I honestly don't remember how long it took. I know it took a couple of tries, but when I went "all in" it didn't take long. My speed is still not fully up to where I was, but I haven't been trying to improve. Specifically, I got up to 70ish and then just stopped caring.

I'd hesitate to say I notice much of any difference. It makes me a little happy to have made the change. But, in the same way that moving a mouse to my off hand makes me happy. And is something I do every so often.

I learned colemak for the same reason (RSI) but it didn’t help much, it was especially hard because I use multiple computers, RDP and other remote management systems and sometimes other peoples computers.

I don’t know what the status is now, if all the OS have built in Colemak layouts but I don’t think they did at the time.

I got rid of RSI by using a Kinesis advantage keyboard for a year (with qwerty layout). This must have gotten rid of any bad habits I had, I focused hard on not bottoming out hard on the keys too.

After a year I switched to a topre keyboard and it hasn’t come back, it’s been over 10yrs.

I use Colemak-DH and learned it through the Tarmak progression. RSI is probably the wrong reason to learn Colemak. It made little difference for me and as far as I know there is no scientific evidence that it helps.

Better: get an adjustable table and chair and ensure that they are correctly configured. Take regular breaks and do exercises. Get a keyboard that is split (to ensure that your wrists are not bent) and tented (to put our wrists at a more comfortable angle). Bonus points for column stagger. For me, switching to a Kinesis Advantage improved a lot to the point where I pretty much pain free.

(IANAD, but personal experience.)

My MS ergonomic keyboard and vertical mouse definitely help. Never tried a Kinesis advantage though. I'll try it and see how I get on.

It took me 4 weeks to get back to 50% speed. 4 months to get back to 75% speed. 4 years to type faster than Qwerty.

I'm incredibly happy with my switch. I was getting RSI pain from awkward top-to-bottom row maneuvers with Qwerty. I still have some pain, but that's mostly from using the computer far too much.

Most of the challenge is not about learning the new layout, but getting your muscle memory to forget about the old way of doing things. If I were to do it again, I'd recommend a progressive layout change; switching a single set of keys at a time. It takes longer to switch, but reduces the upfront mental load.

Thanks, that's encouraging. It's worth a go I guess. I'll probably spend 10-20 minutes per day using this [1] to progressively learn colemak-dh

[1] https://www.colemak.academy/

I found it to be more comfortable, so I stuck with it. If I could do it again though, I’d swap between the two as I learned as I’m now rather slow with qwerty.

I know what you mean, though I question how such a transition would pan out.

Any ideas of how well this tends to work as a learning strategy?

I have a friend who did it that way, but I’ve never done it myself.

Does your friend have 4 hands? If so, I would love to see 2 hands do QWERTY and 2 Colemak.

And then swap hands.

Then keyboards behind the back.

Have I taken this joke too far? Or not far enough?

I made the switch from Qwerty to Colemak over ten years ago.

How long for me to transition from being quite fast at Qwerty to being happy enough with my Colemak speed? I'd guess roughly 2 to 4 weeks. As an independent software developer and entrepreneur at the time, it worked. I was mostly writing code, not having to write some heroic quantity of emails as a manager.

In addition to the "typing feels better" benefit, I found the very process of changing to be quite beneficial in two ways:

(1) I did more thinking in advance and more planning and therefore less unnecessary typing. This was very niiice. Please imagine Borat saying it for full effect.

(2) The cognitive challenge of switching my primary mode of interaction with computers had a much broader effect on how I appreciated learning and habits in general.

Conclusion: you have should switched yesterday from Qwerty to an APL keyboard. /s

Not a Dvorak user, but I type on different language keypads a lot, both physically and on software keyboards. Your fingers get used to it within a few weeks and after a few years your brain doesn't even register the difference.

> ...different language keypads...

I found out while travelling, around 20 years ago, my (then current) SO would get frustrated with the keyboards in different languages (all over the EU). She gave up even trying to use a different keyboard and started asking me to type for her (it sucks, her being restrained like that).

I also found out that it takes me <60s to pick up the new layouts on those physical keyboards (again, European variants)

Regardless of the layout, she is always faster than me on virtual keyboards.

Dvorak user for 6+ years. Whereas I was very proficient touch-typing qwerty, that ability was lost when I learned Dvorak. It was too difficult, with too little benefit, to train myself to touch type in both formats. I ended up going all-in on Dvorak.

My keyboard [0] has software that translates from Dvorak to qwerty. So plugging the keyboard into different machines means no change for me, since most do qwerty by default.

When I use laptop keyboard, I do switch to dvorak layout.

Also, I'll mention the most interesting bit for me personally with changing has been in-person software interviews. The interviewer (future boss) gave me quite a look when he saw me start hunt-and-pecking! I should have given him some warning but wasn't thinking about it until I sat down at the keyboard. Fortunately it led to a good conversation, and after taking the few seconds to switch keyboard formats on the test machine I was back to full speed (unnecessarily extra full speed to impress).

> it would be a real problem for other people if the keycaps didn't match...

If you're concerned about other people, use qwerty keycaps and just ignore for yourself. It's also possible to have blank keycaps. I have blanks because they were the only sculpted option at the time for the keyboard I wanted. Along with the ortholinear layout I get some weird looks sometimes, the keyboard is just a blank regular grid of buttons, doesn't really look quite normal.

[0] Ergodox-EZ (old style, not sold anymore) https://ergodox-ez.com/

The best touch typing doesn't look at the keyboard at all, so it has more often felt like a benefit that the keys don't match what I type. (I sometimes feel like I should apologize to grade school teachers that tried to impart that lesson at too young an age to me when teaching QWERTY typing and I'd complain when they tried to block the keyboard from view.)

Having QWERTY key caps is even sometimes still useful for hunt and peck when an app (often a game) uses the wrong system library for keyboard input and is accidentally hard-coded to QWERTY input.

If other people need to use my computer it is very easy to set up profiles that default still to QWERTY or to temporarily shift to QWERTY for their interaction. (The default Windows shortcut key to switch between installed layouts is Left CTRL+SHIFT. It's very easy to switch to/from QWERTY with that quick shortcut.)

When I was learning dvorak (more than a decade ago) I bought a cheap keyboard at a garage sale and rearranged the keys. An easier approach is just to get stickers.

I used that trainer keyboard for a summer, until my typing muscle memory was updated to dvorak.

Since then, I don't look at my keyboards while typing, so the fact that the keys are labeled for qwerty doesn't really matter.

I'm in a funny situation that at my desktop I've been using a Kinesis dvorak keyboard for over 20 years, but on laptops or other random computers I use qwerty. My brain is totally bought in on the different layouts, I don't even have to think about it. It's too much of a hassle to manage to reconfigure all of them to dvorak, and then no one else in the family would be able to use them either. An extra complication is that I also sometimes use a Swedish keyboard to type åäö and on a dvorak I have no idea where they would end up.

Perhaps it would pay off to standardize... But like someone else said, the letters aren't the problem, it's all the symbols that you almost never use that become impossible if they aren't labeled.