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Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by ProfessorLayton on Friday April 28, 2023 @06:16PM (#35747788)
My question is: What now?

The feds are stuck trying to tame inflation, and the skyrocketing interest rates are crumbling regional banks. Big banks are a lot more hesitant to lend to small businesses, and many otherwise viable businesses will fail if credit freezes.

Big banks are getting even bigger as depositors flee, and concentrating risk (even more) imo.

I guess the higher interest rates are doing their job in slowing the economy down, but it's wild that we're stuck with whatever the feds do with their blunt toolset because congress is seemingly dysfunctional.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by dragonwriter on Friday April 28, 2023 @06:30PM (#35747928)
> The feds are stuck trying to tame inflation […] and many otherwise viable businesses will fail if credit freezes.

That’s what “taming inflation” means. It means cooling off the economy, which means that businesses which would otherwise be viable fail, reducing demand, reducing upward pressure on prices.

To the extent that unexpected banking issues accelerate this, within a fairly wide band, from a monetary policy perspective that just means the Fed can back off the brake pedal a little sooner.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by tflinton on Friday April 28, 2023 @10:57PM (#35749600)
I think more to the point was that much of this pain from the feds blunt toolset wouldn’t be necessary if congress could cooperate on a fiscal & monetary policy.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by tekknik on Sunday April 30, 2023 @09:03AM (#35762164)
This was happening prior to the monetary policy issues. This is a result of the mass amount of money spent during COVID. But interestingly it’s Congress that’s supposed to set the budget. But now you have the Senate and POTUS trying to force their say.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Choco31415 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:39AM (#35750078)
Is there a way to help small businesses avoid failing in these situations?
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by SV_BubbleTime on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:35AM (#35753914)
Don’t print money endlessly for decades? Don’t run endless government debt? Do t artificially keep rates low for almost two decades?

The solution is exactly what is about to happen, a decade plus recession. But don’t worry, there is always war, which is coming.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Choco31415 on Monday May 01, 2023 @11:11PM (#35782839)
I understand that these are things to be avoided, but don’t understand how they impact small/large businesses. Do you have some resources to better understand the subject?
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by 0zemp2c on Friday April 28, 2023 @06:47PM (#35748090)
what do you want Congress to do?

if they increase spending, you get more inflation, and then they have to eventually pay higher rates on their own debt

if they cut spending, they can deflate the economy, and they can't attract the tax revenues to pay their own debt

no good options in a society that has OD'd on debt since the mid 90s

if we were honest, the President would go on TV and tell us we are just going to be poorer for a while, which is something most people already know anyway

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by JumpCrisscross on Friday April 28, 2023 @06:48PM (#35748104)
> if they cut spending, they can deflate the economy, and they can't attract the tax revenues to pay their own debt

This is not a serious constraint on deficit reduction.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by collegeburner on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:33PM (#35749134)
core pce just printed at 4.6 and ur worried about deflation?

services inflation printed at 7.3% and ur worried about deflation?

that's not a valid opinion atp. we're so far from overcorrecting its scary. spending is still up over pre corona levels. ppl still drawing down excess savings. bank crisis is a real concern and prob reads through to equivalent of a few rate hikes (slok @ apollo says 150bps, most say lower)

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by rcpt on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:41PM (#35749172)
Real estate gets around $150B per year in federal tax cuts. End that. Housing goes down. Inflation fixed.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by candiddevmike on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:08PM (#35749651)
The amount of buy and hold slumlords that don't pay any taxes is staggering. Paper losses due to depreciation yet they're wealthy as can be.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by tekknik on Sunday April 30, 2023 @09:19AM (#35762280)
How do you not pay taxes on property?
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by candiddevmike on Friday April 28, 2023 @09:46PM (#35749206)
Increase corporate taxes like everyone was telling them to. Soak up the COVID PPP helicopter money.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by tekknik on Sunday April 30, 2023 @09:16AM (#35762254)
Then throw us deeper into a recession since business won’t invest in expanding anymore?
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by tflinton on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:04PM (#35749636)
A few things:

Disincentivize property investments in family homes.

Return R&D tax credits.

Return so a semblance of the glass & steagall act.

Up the amount of coverage the FDIC is authorized to cover even before regulators need to take over.

Allow an upfront loan privately for banks to lend against temporarily with stock put as collateral.

Up the corporate tax rate.

Remove the cap on SALT taxes for those under 400k.

Change marginal tax rates for individuals.

There insane amount of things congress can do if they just… do it.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by refurb on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:21PM (#35749708)
Wow, those would probably have major negative consequences for the economy.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by pclmulqdq on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:48PM (#35749842)
Those are all things that increase the size of the money supply. A fiscal policy that cracks inflation needs higher taxes and lower spending, which in turn reduces the amount of money in the system.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by dragonwriter on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:52PM (#35749865)
> A fiscal policy that cracks inflation needs higher taxes and lower spending, which in turn reduces the amount of money in the system.

Why would you want a fiscal policy to crack inflation? Better to crack it with monetary policy and use fiscal policy to mitigate adverse distributional effects of the monetary policy, since its easier not to overshoot badly that way than with contractionary fiscal policy.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by pclmulqdq on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:26AM (#35750024)
You would ideally not like fiscal and monetary policy working against each other. Having them work in opposite directions is what got us in this mess. Also, you can't stop inflation while also mitigating the adverse effects of it. You stop inflation by making people poorer.

Also, while monetary policy can be adjusted more frequently, those adjustments take a while to move through the economy, so maybe you want to be careful with it or you will crush a few too many banks.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by dragonwriter on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:37AM (#35750072)
> Also, you can’t stop inflation while also mitigating the adverse effects of it.

Yes, you can stop inflation while also mitigating the adverse distributional effects (adverse short-term aggregate effects, no, but that’s not what I said to mitigate.)

> You stop inflation by making people poorer.

You stop inflation by making people poorer in aggregate. Ideally you want to do that by compressing available resources, rather than doing so in equal proportions across the spectrum of means, and either of those is better than disproportionately making those already poor poorer.

Monetary policy is good for addressing the aggregate target, but its not a very good tool for tuning distributional impacts; fiscal policy is much capable of steering distribution of impacts.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by pclmulqdq on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:07AM (#35751844)
I think you're generally ignoring the velocity of money. A dollar held by a startup or a poor person is much more inflationary than a dollar held by a big company or rich person - those dollars are moving fast. I assume, from your comment, that you are interested in protecting those two groups.

If you want to combat inflation, you need to reduce demand, which really means removing "hot" dollars from the economy, not "cold" dollars.

So no, you likely can't mitigate the adverse "distributional" effects the way you want, while also effectively fighting inflation. Everyone needs to get poorer.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by dragonwriter on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:12AM (#35753027)
> I think you're generally ignoring the velocity of money

No, I’m not.

> A dollar held by a startup or a poor person is much more inflationary than a dollar held by a big company or rich person

Rich people have to lose more money in aggregate for the same inflation effect as poorer people losing the same amount of money, sure.

But that's fine, because its a lot less bad for rich people to lose a lot of money than people whose ability to meet basic needs is marginal to lose a little money, so, yes, my statement that the distributional goal should be compression when the broad goals is anti-inflationary was exactly what I intended, even including consideration of velocity of money in the domestic economy.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by pclmulqdq on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:58AM (#35753502)
I'm pretty sure there literally isn't enough money held by rich people to have the effect that you want.

The top 1% own about 25% of assets in the US, and of that the vast majority are likely illiquid and non-cash. If you assume that the top 1% hypothetically hold 10% of the cash, then draining their cash accounts to 0 and burning it would be equivalent (not counting money velocity) to everyone else taking a 10% haircut. If you attempt to account for the velocity of money, that would likely only be a small single-digit percentage. The CPI is higher than that, and many lower- and middle-class families are seeing a much bigger loss in purchasing power thanks to increases in the prices of food, fuel, and housing.

Moreover, the last 2 years have been an experiment in exactly what you are proposing - using monetary policy to control inflation while using fiscal policy to attempt to prevent it from hitting most people. It has not worked, and it will not work in the future. In fact, the policy has had the opposite effect that you probably want: real wealth is increasingly concentrated in the hands of the wealthy, and inflation is largely concentrated in products purchased by the poor.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by 1123581321 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:29AM (#35750303)
If that's what's on the table, Congress' inability to act is protecting us.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by tekknik on Sunday April 30, 2023 @09:18AM (#35762275)
> Up the corporate tax rate.

> Change marginal tax rates for individuals.

Politician? Why are you trying to hide your intent here. Raise taxes across the board, just say it.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by sanderjd on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:12PM (#35749670)
They need to raise taxes. That's the other lever.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by tenpies on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:13PM (#35749675)
> if they increase spending, you get more inflation, and then they have to eventually pay higher rates on their own debt

You can spend in a dis-inflationary manner: increasing production capacity, facilitating resource extraction, and generally anything that helps on the supply side of things.

But absolutely, given the current Administration and the Democrat agenda, this is anathema. If anything they would rather spend to destroy supply as much as possible, since this is generally what the SDG, DIE, and Green agendas consider "success".

A great example is the Inflation Reduction Act. The "green" portions were estimated to cost $390 BB initially, but are now estimated to cost $1045 BB (yes, over a trillion dollars), and this number will almost certain go up[1].

Not a penny of it goes to anything that would increase supply of what you'll need for the "green" infrastructure, it's all pure demand, the bulk of it EV incentives. You would have trouble coming up with a more inflationary plan if you tried.

---

[1] https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/estimates/2023/4/27/up...

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by jmyeet on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:08AM (#35749942)
This is so easy. Increase corporate taxation. Increase the minimum corporate tax rate from 15% to 50% until taxation comes down. Prohibit share buybacks.

If necessary put in a temporary price and wage freeze. This was done under Nixon.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by fosk on Friday April 28, 2023 @11:21PM (#35749703)
Resume student loan payments and inflation goes down in a couple of months.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by kevingadd on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:17AM (#35749985)
What's the logic behind this? I can't come up with an explanation.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by rurp on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:31AM (#35750046)
If millions of people have to restart spending a chunk of their income on loan payments they will have less money to purchase other goods and services. That will reduce demand in many areas leading to relatively lower prices.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by adastra22 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:33AM (#35750058)
Consumer price inflation is generally driven by demand. Decrease N people’s monthly budget by $X, and you decrease aggregate demand by Nx$X. Student loan payments is one of the few tools the federal government has to manipulate large swaths of the population’s budgets.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by freeone3000 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:47AM (#35750390)
So what’s this, if some people make more money it’s fine, but if everyone makes more money the entire economy tumbles? The system cannot handle actual increases in wealth for everyone? Our goal should be to have MOST people be poor so that some can remain rich?
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by adastra22 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:35AM (#35750584)
Wealth is measured by how much material objects and services you can buy, not by the actual numbers in your bank account. If you literally added a zero to everyone's bank account overnight, what would happen? There'd be some turmoil, but essentially pretty quickly a zero would be added to every price in every store, and we'd be exactly back to square 1.

When the government suspended student loan payments (and started paying extra time for staying home, and other pandemic benefits), it indirectly put cash in the hands of people who were used to living month-to-month. No doubt some were fiscally responsible and put the money in stocks, which made the stock market have a crazy big rally, but that's a different story. Most just went out and bought things they might not have bought otherwise, or which they had been waiting/saving for. But the supply of things didn't increase--in fact if anything the supply went down because of part shortages. What happens when demand goes up and supply goes down? Prices skyrocket. And this is measured as increased consumer prices (aka inflation).

Now the supply shortage has been mostly worked out, but prices remain high. They are sticky--that's the actual, technical term. A demand shock is required to unstick prices, a core part of getting inflation under control. Suddenly reducing the available monthly budget of those same people who were driving inflation in the first place would do that. So resume student loan payments.

There's no way it'll happen before the next presidential election, however.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by freeone3000 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:20AM (#35750814)
Your example undermines your point — in the face of actual, material ability of people to live more than month-to-month and have an actual nice thing, well, we have widespread shortages lasting for years.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by adastra22 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:13AM (#35751073)
Supply shortages lasted months, not years, and are largely over. Chip shortages are an exception. People did buy a lot more than they had been buying previously. This is very well documented.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by freeone3000 on Sunday April 30, 2023 @08:49AM (#35762072)
It's been three years and prices have yet to come down. Interest rates have soared, and who knows how that's going to make new stuff appear. It's quite probable prices will never return to 2018 levels, and somehow this is the result of a temporary increase in people buying stuff. The system is fucked.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by adastra22 on Sunday April 30, 2023 @11:03AM (#35763171)
That’s inflation and sticky prices for you. The prices won’t go down. There was too much free money given away in the pandemic for that. But steps could be taken to reduce interest rates, if there was political will. Resuming student loan payments (and interest) would go a long way towards that.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by zdragnar on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:11AM (#35750474)
Wealth is increased by what money can buy (availability and accessibility of goods), not by the number on the currency you hold.

If that was the case, then Zimbabwe made a massive mistake when switched to the US dollar after having had to print 1, 10 and 100 trillion dollar notes because inflation was pushing 230,000,000 percent.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by stevefan1999 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:45AM (#35750939)
Well, unfortunately, yes. It's a sad fact that economy, or wealth in general, builds upon inequalities, otherwise there is no need to put regards between the rich and the poor, and there is no need to compare each other.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by misssocrates on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:20AM (#35749995)
That would help. When are they going to resume?
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by noahtallen on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:08AM (#35750216)
Currently set to resume in June or July, I believe.

But I find this line of thinking dubious. It costs more than $1700/month for 10 years just to pay for med school? ($160k total cost at 5% interest — and both of those values are at the low end.) That’s an incredibly stupid situation for our economy to be in. That is a massive barrier to entry for a some very important careers.

And on top of that, we’re saying that these massive payments are crucial to getting inflation in check?

Maybe you’re right that this “helps” superficially reduce inflation. But the root problem is much deeper, which is that our economic system cannot handle people making a decent money.

The root cause is likely a lot closer to big companies jacking prices of basic goods and services, blaming inflation, and making record profits in the meantime.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by jjeaff on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:52AM (#35750671)
Our economy can handle a lot more people making more money. It just can't handle it suddenly. Especially during and right after a global economic shutdown.

Companies are still catching up with supply. Lots of chemicals and other base materials are still in short supply. A lot of this stems from China still having shutdowns and taking a long time to recover.

Companies also don't want to spend tons of money expanding production when they don't believe the increased demand will continue forever and especially while interest rates are increasing. After supplies catch up, and student loans resume, they likely expect demand to return to pre-pandemic levels.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by trashtester on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:37AM (#35751701)
> It just can't handle it suddenly.

I think there are factors there that is going to cause permanent reductions of production capacity in many economies, though:

1) Demography: Boomers have started retiring in large numbers, and a lot more retire in the next 5-10 years. There are not enough young people to fill all of the openings they leave behind. Also, work participation rate among young people is falling for various reasons. Unlike their parents, the boomers have a lot of saved up wealth and less of the frugality of those who remembered the 30s, meaning many will continue to have high levels of consumption into their retirement.

2) Reversion of globalism: Covid made many realize that global supply chains are fragile during emergencies, and many countries are re-shoring essential and strategic production, such as medical supplies, chips/electronics and agricultural products. The cost of this improved resilience is lower efficiency.

3) Increased world tension: With the invasion of Ukraine and the possibility of war between the US and China over Taiwan, world spending on armaments is going up, taking production capacity away from consumer goods. The same tension is already causing reduced trade.

4) Populism/socialism/environmentalism: There appears to be a surge in populist, socialist radical environmentalist sentiments in many places, with demands to "tax the rich" and other actions that will make investments less attractive.

In sum, I think these factors will have noticable effects on the supply side in many years to come, causing inflation and/or interest rates to stay elevated for 10 years or more.

Unless there is a sudden surge in automation, of course.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by trashtester on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:05AM (#35751573)
> But the root problem is much deeper, which is that our economic system cannot handle people making a decent money.

The value of money is defined by what you can buy for it. If there isn't enough stuff to buy, either prices go up or there will be shortages of those products. If I have to chose between paying 20% more for the bread or to find the shelves empty half the time, I prefer to pay 20% more.

In "other economic systems", meaning socialism, empty shelves are pretty common.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by AuryGlenz on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:59AM (#35750172)
While I don’t think it would fix the problem, the fact that I’ve yet to hear a single source in the media take the Biden administration to task for this is absolutely ludicrous. Feeding gas the the fire for votes is absolutely appalling.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by zdragnar on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:07AM (#35750460)
They've couldn't take him to task for not resuming payments earlier because they were all-in on the plan to forgive student loans. It would have undermined the narrative if they'd wanted both.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by dragonwriter on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:09AM (#35750225)
> Resume student loan payments and inflation goes down in a couple of months.

But... inflation already has gone down. Oh, yeah, everyone cites the headline 12-month trailing inflation, but if you look at the monthly data, the high inflation period was sometime in 2021 (where depends on if you look at CPI, as is most often cited, or PCE, which the Fed uses) through the first half of 2022.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Izkata on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:25AM (#35750844)
It is trending down, but "the high inflation period" didn't end last year, it's still ongoing. We're nowhere near where we used to be: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-infl...
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by blitzar on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:27AM (#35751140)
March 2023 1 month inflation is 0.1% - should that repeat every month (obviously it wont) for the next 12 months, 1.2% annual inflation.

The June print for healine annual inflation (from the prior 12 months) is going to be ~3%. Negotiate your wage increases before it is too late.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by trashtester on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:53AM (#35751528)
> March 2023 1 month inflation is 0.1%

Only due to shifts in food and energy prices, which are both highly volatile. Exclude those, and there is still 0.3% month-on-month inflation, or 3.6 annualized, which is still almost 2x the target.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by dragonwriter on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:58AM (#35752902)
That’s the 12 month trailing rate for each month, not the monthy rate.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Izkata on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:23PM (#35756207)
If the high-inflation period had ended in the first half of 2022 as you said, then the 12-month rate would already be back to normal. It's not.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by dragonwriter on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:35PM (#35757926)
> If the high-inflation period had ended in the first half of 2022 as you said, then the 12-month rate would already be back to normal. It's not.

It would be absent in the first release in which the high inflation period was 12+ months in the past. That would be the release covering June 2023; the most recent release. covers March 2023.

Kind of weird that you’d answer “in which month would the high inflation ending in Jun 2022 be just part of the baseline prices and not a factor in the 12-month trailing increase?” with some answee that is March 2023 or earlier, and not June 2023.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by jdenning on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:37AM (#35751196)
Many prices change seasonally; comparing inflation to the rate 12 months ago accounts for any seasonal variance.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by dragonwriter on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:07AM (#35752987)
First: the 12-month trailing rate compares price level, not inflation rate, to 12-months ago.

Second, looking at the monthly seasonally adjusted numbers also accounts for seasonal variance.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by qbasic_forever on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:29AM (#35750035)
Tax the rich. That is the fastest way to get excess money from inflation out of the system. All of the rhetoric about $1400 checks being the problem is just smoke and mirrors. The trillions of dollars of PPP loans, money printing for corporations, etc. was the real problem. That excess money needs to be taken back and wealth taxes would do it.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Justin_K on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:52AM (#35750143)
Every year there are new "tax the rich" plans and some become law. Over the long haul, the government just blows the money and asks for more. Theses schemes are easy to sell to the voters but all they really do is let the government spend and waste more.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by 58028641 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:03AM (#35750187)
When have we taxed the rich?
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by kevdragon6 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:17AM (#35750255)
In 2020: Top 1% paid 42% of all collected income taxes. (1.5 million tax payers paid $722 Billion) Bottom 50% paid 2.25% (78 million tax payers paid $1.7 Billion)

https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income...

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by sroussey on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:29AM (#35750301)
The top 1% of that 1% pay almost nothing. This is what gets people all riled up about. And the 99% of the top 1% are the ones that pay.

Mostly because it expensive to get around taxes, something the 1% of the 1% can easily afford.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by qzw on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:20AM (#35751918)
It's not just the expense of getting around taxes, but also the difference in sources of income. If most of the income is on a W-2, there are just not as many ways to get around any income taxes. But if it's mostly business or investment income, that's like Minecraft for accountants.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by cronix on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:20AM (#35753104)
And a lot of people always throws around terms like "almost nothing" without defining it in terms of actual dollars. Is it like 50M is nothing compared to their 10B net worth? What are we talking about/comparing here?
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by sroussey on Sunday April 30, 2023 @01:54PM (#35764898)
Trump paid zero for years.

Privately, I know how to make investment income go to zero if you have enough of it. It’s all rather fascinating. Really, the top 5% of the top 1% could do it. But if you have less than $1m income (or cap gains), then it’s likely not worth it.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by grogenaut on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:30AM (#35750308)
how much did those top 1% make in income out of the total?
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by _huayra_ on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:44AM (#35750375)
I'm glad you pointed this out. The parent comment to yours is the equivalent of people seeing a big red map of the US during the presidential race and saying "how come the Democrats win when there's so much red?!", as if land can vote -_-
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by rmk on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:09AM (#35750465)
In America, land can vote, although not in the Presidential election. The Senate.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by jjeaff on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:40AM (#35750607)
Still not land voting. Seeing as RI gets the same number of votes as AK. And both senate candidates are selected by popular vote in the state, so even if most of the state is red, big blue cities can swing the vote.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by jack_squat on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:29AM (#35751155)
RI has the same approximate population as AK. What people mean when they say land votes, is AK compared to NY. AK has a population of < 1M while NY has a population of > 8 million. Proportionally, Alaskans have > 8x the representation in the senate that New Yorkers have.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by jjeaff on Monday May 01, 2023 @02:24PM (#35776992)
I haven't heard people say "land votes" (except in this thread). Only, "land doesn't vote".
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by rmk on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:49PM (#35758037)
Not a proportional vote but a territorial vote nonetheless.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by lotsofpulp on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:13AM (#35751601)
It is the same in the presidential election, since number of electoral votes from the state includes number of senators.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Leherenn on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:04AM (#35750721)
"In 2020, the bottom half of taxpayers earned 10.2 percent of total AGI and paid 2.3 percent of all federal individual income taxes. The top 1 percent earned 22.2 percent of total AGI and paid 42.3 percent of all federal income taxes." According to https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income....
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by naijaboiler on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:28AM (#35753179)
Why do people like you always exclude payroll taxes and state taxes in counting who paid the most taxes. You only cherry pick the most progressive piece of the entire taxes paid
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Leherenn on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:07PM (#35755469)
I'm not even American mate. I was just interested in the statistics and looked it up online (maybe poorly) and posted it here since I assumed others would be. I didn't even comment whether this was good or bad! Do you have the numbers you talk about?
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by johngladtj on Saturday April 29, 2023 @08:02AM (#35752131)
Dollar earned for dollar earned the top 1% pays 6 times the tax as the bottom 50%
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Caligatio on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:43AM (#35750371)
The trend that is more troubling is the effective tax rate for the 1% of earners is falling (34.47% in 1980 vs 25.99% in 2020) yet their share of total taxes paid is rising (19.05% in 1980 vs 42.31% in 2020). This just highlights the growing income gap between the 1% and everyone else.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by johngladtj on Saturday April 29, 2023 @08:00AM (#35752124)
Or perhaps it's just proving the laffer curve true.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by oblio on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:01AM (#35751307)
If that's supposed to be some sort of rallying cry in their defense:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM

The top 1% had almost 40% of the wealth in the US, in 2012.

And that video is from 2012, from before Covid, now it's much, much worse, because since 2020 the top 1% have captured about 66% of the extra wealth created.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by refurb on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:46AM (#35751506)
The top 1% have 40% of wealth and pay 40% of taxes?

Sounds ideal to me.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by tarsinge on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:25AM (#35750540)
From https://taxfoundation.org/historical-income-tax-rates-bracke... the answer is between 1936 and 1981 (as a high as 90% for the highest bracket from 1941 to 1963).
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by WeylandYutani on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:29AM (#35751668)
Curiously the time conservatives want to go back too.

HN is higher income bracket so they don't need the services the government provides- and have the arrogance to call it waste.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by realjhol on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:27AM (#35752676)
Conservative here. We don't want to go "back" to anything - we reject the Whig history notion of linear history entirely. Rather there are things we want, and things we don't want, and enormous income taxes is decidedly one of the things we don't want.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Justin_K on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:48AM (#35752825)
In general the rich pay most taxes: https://www.heritage.org/taxes/commentary/1-chart-how-much-t...

Rich people pay more property taxes.

Rich people pay own companies, which pay corporate taxes.

LA just enacted a wealth tax on 5m+ real estate.

My point is how many times have we been sold the concept of "if we just bond or tax X, we can solve problem Y". These always turn out to be Big dreams where billions get spent and nothing really gets better.

Look at the CA high speed rail diaster.

Look at this one... The government sold a bond for homeless housing and raided the money for another project. https://calmatters.org/california-divide/2021/03/california-...

We don't have revenue problems, we have spending problems.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by rs999gti on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:06AM (#35752975)
capital gains taxes

Death tax

Top level income tax rates

Property taxes

Sales taxes

And for the self employed - estimated quarterly taxes

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by jameslevy on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:47AM (#35750388)
What about the MMT concept of just taxing the rich and "burning" their funds as a targeted method of reducing the money supply?
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by trashtester on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:40AM (#35751477)
That actually sounds closer to Austrian concepts of inflation than MMT. Reducing the money supply in itself doesn't affect consumer prices, if it only affects money that was not in circulation anyway.

In order to use taxes to counter inflation (when it is defined as increas in consumer prices), you need to tax those who would otherwise spend most of the money. The most efficient way is to tax the upper middle class.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by brvsft on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:09AM (#35752543)
I save most of my money, but supposedly I was going to spend it anyway so actually it should be taxed? Infuriating take.

Edit: Forgot to mention the obvious, if this is how you feel, why isn't a higher sales tax on certain items ideal? People scoff at sales tax proposals because they'd target the poor, but sales taxes could be implemented progressively too. Tax new cars, smartphones, etc. More expensive items get a higher tax, reducing the impact on poorer people.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by trashtester on Sunday April 30, 2023 @04:43AM (#35760744)
I'm not arguing for or against higher taxes. Just stating what I see about facts about the relationship between taxes and inflation under MMT thinking. (And I'm not a fan of MMT, btw.)

Inflation happes when there's an imbalance between supply and demand. MMT argues for increasing deficit spending to fund all sorts of social programs. It also argues that the purpose of taxes is not to "balance the budget", but rather to tamper the inflation that tends to follow overspending.

The alternative (increasing interest rates) doesn't work properly under MMT, since treasury bonds cannot have a real interest rate, or the deficit spending would eventually break down. That means that under MMT, purchasing power of consumers must be pulled back using taxation of various sorts, which only works if you tax the consumers.

The problem with MMT (the way I see it) is that adjusting taxes to regulate inflation is probably an even more painful approach for most people than using the interest rate.

Anyway, the fact you need to tax the actual consumers to fund social programs remains the same, even in more traditional social democratic/keynsian approaches, even if they use the interest rate to regulate inflation.

If you look at northern Europe (where I live), taxes on the middle class are much higher than in the US. They're also higher for the poor, but with the increased social benefits, free healthcare, etc, it matters less for them.

Oh, btw, a lot of the taxes collected ARE, as you propose, collected as sales or luxery taxes, as well as employers taxes (hidden income taxes) Where I live, the direct income tax is "only" around 45%. However, the base sales tax is 25%. The employers tax (tax on employers for paying salaries, in other words a hidden income tax) is 25% (if you make more than $100k). For some items, such as cars, fuel, alcohol, tobacco, cosmetics, sugar/candy, etc, there are additional taxes, often well over 100% of the base cost.

All-in-all, I suppose, out of the salaray budget that my employer allocates to me, 75-80% ends up as taxes, somehow.

And I'm middle class, not rich and not poor. If the left in the US really wants to have a European style welfare state, this is about the level that allows for that.

If given the facts about this, I doubt many American's would want to switch. On the other hand, few people over here would want to switch in the other direction, too, since they're used to the taxes and the benefits they buy.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by roenxi on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:45AM (#35751502)
In practice the government will mis-interpret any theory and attempt to build a financial perpetual motion machine that revolves around printing money. Then everyone will feel very poor while being told they are rich.

Fairly similar to how at present they have done exactly the same thing and generally try to call it Keynesianism from what I can tell. They skipped the parts of Keynesianism that would involve spending less which I suspect is a contributor to the progression of 2000-2007-2023 where every 10 years the crisis gets bigger.

The situation is not that complex. We need people to, by and large, create at least as much value as they consume. There are enormous efforts to find an alternative to that basic balance by creating lots of money and they by and large aren't actually working.

Also the rich don't consume that much stuff in absolute terms, so taking stuff away from them can't help other people to an great extent. The taxing has to be on the middle class who do most of the consuming. There are no alternatives. Can't tax the poor because they have no money, and ironically can't tax "the rich" because although they nominally have money they don't own that much real stuff as a group.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by an-allen on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:39AM (#35751474)
Justin, I don't know who you are but I’m so glad you are there. Ive be bombarded with tax the rich posts on a variety of my news outlets and theres always this echo chamber of supporters who are incapable of understanding that taxes just end up bloating the inefficiency of governments. If we really are about taking wealthy folks money, we are much better off if that capital enters the economy without government clipping the ticket.

Here is Elon Musks 1 billion dollars in taxes. With his 1 billion dollars we can fund a wide ranging web of wasteful bureaucrats, or we can let Elon use his 1 billion to fund a capital project that generates jobs, technological advances, and builds a product that can be exported worldwide so that there is a positive impact on GDP. I prefer 1 billion of Elon capital projects over 1 billion of government programmes Every. Day. Of. The. Year.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by closeparen on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:03AM (#35750188)
Inflation is excess demand for goods and services. We raise interest rates in an inflationary environment because we want people to accumulate wealth in the form of financial assets instead of spending on real things.

Raising taxes on high-income people could help if it goes far enough that we actually reduce our consumption. High income people have low marginal propensity to consume - that’s why it’s better to give regular people money when you want stimulus. Tax hikes targeted at the very high income would have to be very steep, or they’d just be absorbed by lower savings rates.

As long as we’re entertaining weird taxes, progressive consumption tax is probably what you want here. Special sales taxes on big ticket luxury items (cars, boats, watches, etc) could do the same thing a little less elegantly but in a more familiar wish.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by bugglebeetle on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:20AM (#35750269)
Much of inflation is being driven-by corporate concentration, so the answer is to not tax wealthy individuals but corporate profits at much higher rates:

https://scholarworks.umass.edu/econ_workingpaper/343/

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Scoundreller on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:53AM (#35750674)
> not tax wealthy individuals but corporate profits at much higher rates

Most wealthy individuals would take a haircut if corporate holdings were worth less. It mostly has the same effect.

It's not like Bill Gates has all of his wealth in cash.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by bugglebeetle on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:23AM (#35750830)
Sure, but the parent was talking about how taxing wealthy individuals would not tame inflation because of their (relatively) small impact on demand. The same is not true about how corporate profits filter back into the economy.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by VagueMag on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:06AM (#35751331)
> We raise interest rates in an inflationary environment because we want people to accumulate wealth in the form of financial assets instead of spending on real things.

Yes and no. The Fed has a not-so-subtle goal of taming inflation in part by capping asset prices with its interest rate hikes.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by jarym on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:23AM (#35751423)
> Inflation is excess demand for goods and services

Correction, inflation is either from excess demand or constrained supply - the reasons for inflation matter when trying to address the problem.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by trashtester on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:35AM (#35751463)
> inflation is either from excess demand or constrained supply

Inflation is always about the balance between supply and demand

> the reasons for inflation matter when trying to address the problem

Less than one might think based on the either or thinking. Even when a change in supply causes inflation, reducing the demand side will bring it back down.

The exception being for specific items where demand is not very elastic in the short term, such as fuel or basic food items.

But even increasing interest rates (a demand side intervention) may not affect those prices by much, it will affect other prices enough that aggregate demand can stay low.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by somewhereoutth on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:10AM (#35751589)
My understanding is that, at the whole economy level, it is in fact neither of these things, but instead too much money in circulation. If the government prints more money, then the amount of goods/services each unit will buy will fall. Through ultra low interest rates and QE, governments have been doing a lot of money printing.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by kasey_junk on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:52AM (#35752075)
That is an economic theory expressed by a particular economic school but it is not universally believed by economists.

And like most economic theories it’s very hard to (in)validate in the real world.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by influx on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:39AM (#35752771)
What are the arguments here? If it didn’t cause inflation, the USA should abolish taxes and just print trillions of dollars and buy everything in the world, and give each resident a million dollars a month as basic income.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by consilient on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:31AM (#35753209)
You're conflating several distinct things here:

- The nominal quantity of money ("print trillions of dollars")

- Aggregate demand ("buy everything in the world")

- The velocity of money ("give each resident a million dollars a month")

Increases in the quantity * velocity of money drive inflation in the long run: prices do not equilibrate immediately but have to be dragged up (or not, as the case may be) by supply and demand.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by jtbayly on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:25AM (#35753802)
So what are the arguments for why not to just print as much money as the government needs?

If many people believe printing trillions of dollars doesn’t matter, then I’d like to hear why. I’d like to not have taxes…

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by closeparen on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:01PM (#35754156)
The government needs money to buy goods and services. Extra cash chasing the same pool of goods and services is definitely inflationary.

It also needs money to do weird, dark magic with bank balance sheets so that businesses can continue to acquire the capital to maintain and grow the supply of goods and services. It’s less clear what extra money sloshing around the financial system does. In the post-2008 era, people were freaking out about it not doing enough.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by influx on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:24PM (#35756805)
I appreciate your response, if I wanted to educate myself quickly here, is there a layman's textbook you would recommend?
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by zhoujianfu on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:02AM (#35753548)
Some people (including me) actually do think this is exactly what the USA should do.

I think people think printing money causes inflation, and in general “know” that you shouldn’t “spend more than you make”… but I think things are different when you can print money.

It would actually be a very efficient means of fund raising (vs the current tax code), as well as fighting income inequality (the basic income), and even if it did cause inflation, that’s basically just a very efficient progressive wealth tax (when coupled with a universal basic income).

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by jtbayly on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:28AM (#35753843)
In 5 years a roll of TP would cost $1.4T, but we could just remove a few zeros every year or so, amiright?
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by danenania on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:52PM (#35759562)
Inflation is the most regressive form of taxation there is. I'm in favor basic income, but if you try to just print it all, prices will increase to the point that there won't actually be a meaningful increase in purchasing power.

Imagine if the Fed just printed up 10 million dollars for everyone tomorrow. Do you think everyone would then be wealthy?

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by ethbr0 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:07AM (#35753595)
I mean, to some degree, that's what the US has historically done and can do, as a consequence of being the world trade (and therefore reserve) currency.

A side effect of that position is decreased sensitivity (aka inflation) of that currency to money printing.

Because you're effectively amortizing each new dollar's dilution of value against {everything the US uses dollars for} + {everything the world uses dollars for}. Which is a much larger denominator than national-only currencies.

(And side note that being a trade currency is somewhat of a Faustian bargain, because it carries an expectation/obligation that you will create sufficient amounts of your currency to facilitate international trade)

If the US keeps using the dollar as a fast pass to imposing unilateral sanctions internationally, and de-dollarization expands, there will be a very different level of correlation between monetary policy and dollar inflation.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by kasey_junk on Sunday April 30, 2023 @08:15AM (#35761868)
The argument that is peculiar to the Austrian school is that monetary policy is the _only_ thing that causes inflation. Not that it can’t contribute to it.

And personally I think the last 15 years have done a pretty good job as a counterpoint to that school. The whole QE regime was chugging along without generating a large amount of inflation and then we had both the supply and demand numbers go bonkers. Then inflation.

I think this period will be studied for years (though because it’s economics I doubt there will be much decided).

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by speakfreely on Sunday April 30, 2023 @09:55PM (#35768357)
Sounds like you've independently invented MMT.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by somewhereoutth on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:25PM (#35758294)
'All models are wrong, but some are useful'.

In terms of policy making, the independent central banks of many countries (e.g. BoE) have been mandated to follow this model pretty closely - when inflation (a primary metric against which they are judged) rises (like now), interest rate increases and 'QT' are the response.

I'd prefer to see fiscal policy being used more - then the expansion/contraction of the money supply can be better directed for social good, and interest rates can remain nearer their 'natural' level in terms of correct pricing of time/risk.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by hammock on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:54AM (#35753445)
Governments don’t create money, commercial banks do. Read the Bank of England paper
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by somewhereoutth on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:05PM (#35758148)
Indeed! But governments can control the money creation process by adjusting interest rates (specifically the rate that banks can borrow from the central bank), and market operations like QE
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by brookst on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:57AM (#35753479)
This is more of a political / philosophical view than economic. It's a less rigid extrapolation of the gold standard argument. Not to equate the two, but there's a connection.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by somewhereoutth on Saturday April 29, 2023 @07:14PM (#35758217)
Ah the gold standard was about pegging the amount of money in circulation to the quantity of Gold 'in the world', roughly speaking.

Of course with a growing economy this makes no sense, as you need more money to facilitate this growing exchange of goods and services, and so the gold standard is inherently deflationary (see also Bitcoin).

(Fiat) Money of course is just a signalling mechanism, it is not 'real' - money supply / velocity / inflation are concepts for understanding the mechanism, not much politics or philosophy involved.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by somewhereoutth on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:59AM (#35751546)
Strictly, inflation is too much money chasing too few goods/services. Hence money printing (with low interest rates facilitating credit expansion, and QE activities) causes inflation, and the reverse will reduce it.

True that the rich will tend to save money thrown at them, but they also tend to sink it into assets (like property) hence the 'everything bubble'. As you point out, wealth taxes won't move the needle on the price of bread, but may help reduce the costs of housing.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by stephen_g on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:26AM (#35751654)
That’a not ‘strictly’ what inflation is, it’s how the Austrian school defines it. But it’s much complex than that (monetary velocity etc.), so trying to model the economy using the quantity theory of money tends to not yield useful results.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by somewhereoutth on Saturday April 29, 2023 @06:58AM (#35751794)
Agreed that velocity is an important component, but I hope we can also agree that dumping large amounts of money into the economy (ultra low rates and QE) will result in price rises.

At the whole economy level, I'd suggest that supply and demand don't really cause inflation - at least, not the kind of disfunctional inflation that we should guard agains. For example, if the supply of bread is reduced, then necessarily people will eat less bread (and price signalling will ensure that it is the poor that eat less bread). So long as this does not trigger e.g. a wage price spiral or other pathological effect, then this is 'fine'.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by closeparen on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:31AM (#35753877)
Assets being overvalued is a different thing from inflation. It's true that the cost of housing is up, but that's also borne out in rents - there is more too it than rich people having too much money to offer for purchases.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by speakfreely on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:20AM (#35750268)
> Tax the rich.

How do you define rich?

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by 0xy on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:34AM (#35750326)
His income + $1
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by blitzar on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:24AM (#35751128)
Unironically I have watched this repeat out amongst friends and colleagues all my life. People with $5 million homes that are below average (for the country but consider themselves to be about average globally) because there are houses worth 10 mil in the same street.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by refurb on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:48AM (#35751508)
An alcoholic is someone who has one more drink than i do.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by saddd on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:17AM (#35750494)
Granular progressive taxation is the best answer to your question.

Trying to define buckets with arbitrary thresholds is futile.

It greatly benefits the top outliers, since the top bucket will have a huge disparity between its strictly defined lower bounds, and an infinite upper bound.

There's no need to "define rich". A formula without defined bounds (this is the most important part) should determine how much tax you pay, and it shouldn't discriminate between different forms of income. More importantly, all net worth gains should be taxed equally.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Izkata on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:19AM (#35750806)
Pretty sure they're getting at what the wealth is stored in, not monetary bounds. Those are the details that often get ignored when the "tax the rich" soundbite is used.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by ericd on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:17AM (#35753075)
I’m guessing you want unrealized gains to be taxed before they’re realized, since you said “all net worth gains” rather than “all income”?
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by speakfreely on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:07PM (#35754214)
> More importantly, all net worth gains should be taxed equally.

What policy would you use for measuring someone's net worth? How would you ensure they're being honest?

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by saddd on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:57PM (#35755360)
Those are implementation details. It's difficult to accomplish these things in any taxation system, including our current one.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by speakfreely on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:01PM (#35755968)
Well, these are really difficult implementation details to agree upon. There's no chance anyone will agree to something like this without seeing those details.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by saddd on Sunday April 30, 2023 @03:18AM (#35760339)
People typically don't agree to anything that impacts them negatively unless forced to.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by devoutsalsa on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:15AM (#35752587)
In my opinion…

Wealth taxes are a not the best idea. Being taxed on something illiquid that can’t generate cash flow is the pinnacle of dumb taxation. For example, you have a piece of art. You’d have to sell something just to hold onto the art, and if you don’t have anything to sell, you’d have to sell the art itself just to pay for ownership of the art. It would make some sense to increase capital gains taxes instead of slapping people with a wealth tax. I say this as someone that would not be hit by a wealth tax.

Also, the rich can simply move assets out of the country, and then you erode the very thing you want to tax.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Spooky23 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:56AM (#35752878)
Didn’t say wealth tax, just tax. Taxing unrealized gains would be dumb.

It’s pretty easy, hit dividends, income for social security and Medicare purposes without caps, etc. Eliminate deductions for margin interest, tax filing, legal, orgs fees. Put an excise tax on LLC formation and annual reporting, and require an annual filing of beneficial owners of corporate entities. Charge a higher fee for foreign and corporate owners.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by r00fus on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:37PM (#35755141)
These are really good solid ideas that would also have a lot of popular support.

Basically take all the loopholes that the .01% use and close or disadvantage them so they don't use them (or as much).

Rich still get richer but the system stabilizes.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by TexanFeller on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:30AM (#35753198)
> Being taxed on something illiquid that can’t generate cash flow is the pinnacle of dumb taxation

My house isn't very liquid, can't generate revenue very effectively, and I'm taxed every year on its current value. Guess us regular folks are already subject to a wealth tax.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by devoutsalsa on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:36AM (#35753262)
You can rent out real estate. House hacking, Airbnb, boring rental, etc.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by peter422 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:25AM (#35753804)
And you can sell otherwise non-revenue generating assets if you need to.

If you want to say it's difficult to tax illiquid assets, that's fine. But it's not impossible and while it would just change people's relationships to these types of assets (maybe in a good way for society), it's not going to be the end of the world.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by masfuerte on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:41AM (#35753977)
Sure, and the rich person can charge people to look at their valuable artwork.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Viliam1234 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:53AM (#35754074)
Rich enough to have money that can be taken away, not rich enough to afford a specialist for tax evasion. People like this pay most of the tax.

And yes, all the reasons why "taxing X would actually be harmful for the economy" somehow magically do not apply to the small fish.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Retric on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:13AM (#35753682)
Don’t fall into the trap of assuming nothing changes when you tax something.

Tax art and the value of art decreases thus decreasing the tax. Which is likely good for the economy.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by ursuscamp on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:24AM (#35752655)
You’re implicitly admitting that “taxing the rich” will slow the economy and destroy demand.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by TexanFeller on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:21AM (#35753116)
> All of the rhetoric about $1400 checks being the problem is just smoke and mirrors.

It was far more than $1400 checks. Student loans are STILL paused for goodness sakes. The enhanced unemployment checks were larger than regular checks for some people - even my wife who makes Ok money broke even without having to work for several months. $3000 per child given to families. For a couple years there was 2.5% 30yr mortgage financing and refinancing for everyone. That's just off the top if my head. It wasn't all for corporations, an insane amount of cash was thrown at regular people.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by s1artibartfast on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:30AM (#35753868)
Actually, you would have to tax the middle class.

The rich are not driving inflation from consumption, the middle class is. The top 1% has 40% of the wealth, but they aren't buying 40% of groceries, gas, and consumer goods.

Money sitting in a bank accounts doesn't drive inflation, consumers spending money does.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Xeoncross on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:38AM (#35753943)
> The top 1% has 40% of the wealth ... Money sitting in a bank accounts

I can assure you, the wealthy are not keeping their net worth under a mattress. They are purchasing and paying for assets like property and businesses.

Not that they can't have cash they are waiting to deploy (AAPL, MSFT, & GOOG sure do) but they are wealthy because they own assets and use that to purchase other assets.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by s1artibartfast on Saturday April 29, 2023 @11:59AM (#35754130)
I totally agree that the money isn't in a mattress, but it might as well be for the impacts on inflation. Inflation is driven by consumers ability and willingness to pay higher prices.

The 1% are not walking into the supermarket and buying up all the butter and driving up prices

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Xeoncross on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:05PM (#35754198)
Inflation is because of the money printing. We have the same amount of assets, but suddenly there is over triple the amount of money floating around.

More demand, but the same supply of resources means prices go up. Take a look at the feds balance sheet in 2008 and compare with now (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WALCL)

It's no surprise we've had a bull run for over ten years.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by s1artibartfast on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:27PM (#35754387)
Again, I agree with most everything of what you say, but how it connects to inflation. Printing money only leads to consumer good inflation when it circulates and gets into consumer hands.

If you print the money and put it in the incinerator, you have no inflation. If you put it in a mattress, no inflation. If you print money and put it in APPL stock, no inflation. However, When you pay nurses, construction workers, software devs, and other workers, then you get consumer goods inflation. The problem with printing money is the trickle down effect.

Like you said, it is supply and demand. AAPL corp or Jeff Bezos are not walking into a grocery store and buying all the butter. Prices go up when your worker is willing to pay more for butter.

For some reason, many people think that if only we taxed the rich and gave it to workers to spend, then the price of butter would go down in the market. This is insane.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Xeoncross on Saturday April 29, 2023 @01:12PM (#35754860)
I think you're discounting how connected everything is.

When you buy XYZ stock the company is able to borrow more and at better rates. They are able to attract buyouts, pay higher salaries, hire more employees and generally spend more in a number of ways.

When individuals like Jeff Bezos add another zero to their net worth they are able to borrow against their own stock holdings as well as are more likely to splurge on other things (like his new yacht) such as funding Blue Origin and Project Kuiper so Musk doesn't pass him as the richest man in the world.

All this results in more money spent and entering the economy ultimately trickling down to purchases of milk, bread and starter homes while making many other stops along the way.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by s1artibartfast on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:03PM (#35755431)
Again, I 100% agree on the connectedness of the economy and trickle down effect.

If I understand you correctly, I think where we disagree is the effect of Taxation. If the government tax the wealthy and incinerated it, then yes, I agree that would reduce job growth, wage competition, and inflation. However, if taxes are increased and the money is distributed directly to the workers, I would expect this to increase inflation.

Do you think job creation from capital reinvestment is a stronger driver of inflation then putting that money in consumer pockets?

The only ways to reduce inflation is to increase product Supply or reduce demand. I don't think that taxing the wealthy will increase Supply and I do think that giving workers more monetary transfers or a lower tax burden increases demand.

You simply can't reduce inflation and while increasing consumer purchasing power while holding supply constant.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Xeoncross on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:31PM (#35755690)
I too agree with your comment, I must be missing more context.

> if taxes are increased and the money is distributed directly to the workers

This is unlikely, taxes and laws are always overseen by lobbyists who are funded by the wealthy. I can't imagine a situation where they would vote themselves into a worse situation.

If they ever appear to, know the harm they face would be to their advantage (such as crushing startup competition or preventing litigation).

Perhaps this seems like an overly jaded take, but please reference this Princeton study that found the wishes of the US population have had no real effect on laws for decades.

https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/fi...

TL;DR: https://imgur.com/a/tvqQXFc

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by s1artibartfast on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:01PM (#35755969)
I'm not sure I agree with that cynical of a take, but even if is true, I don't see how moving money from one wealthy person to another would be an effective tool to fight inflation.

Furthermore, I don't think that is the underlying assumption held by people who say we should tax the rich to fight inflation.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Xeoncross on Saturday April 29, 2023 @12:02PM (#35754164)
The $300,000,000 of stimulus checks was to ensure the population would pass the $6,100,000,000,000 of funding.

It worked great, every tax payer got a few thousand and an indirect +$40,000 tax bill (the government has to get money from tax payers for it) they will be paying out PLUS inflation and other side-effects for years to come.

Props to the rich for figuring out how to bait the people.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Barrin92 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:29AM (#35750559)
>What now?

for starters adopt a Canadian style banking model. The country largely runs on 5 very tightly regulated banks that haven't gone bankrupt in a hundred years. These regional banks fall over in every little crisis and they always end up being bailed out anyway (see SV bank), so you might as well consolidate the sector for good.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Scoundreller on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:56AM (#35750688)
Lots of credit unions in Canadian traditional finance (taking deposits, making loans), and they haven't been failing left and right.

I think a bigger diff is that Canada doesn't do 15/20/25 year fixed rates. Usually at most 5 years fixed and then you renegotiate and see what you can do. And a lot of variable rates.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by johngladtj on Saturday April 29, 2023 @08:03AM (#35752139)
Wait are you advocating for monopolies?
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by Barrin92 on Sunday April 30, 2023 @12:19AM (#35759656)
Yes. Large banks are more diversified in their portfolios, perform better, are more resilient and easier to regulate and audit by the state.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by tekknik on Sunday April 30, 2023 @09:28AM (#35762338)
The size of a bank has nothing to do with portfolio diversification. You can, as an individual, keep a well diversified portfolio of $100.

Perform better is objective since you provided no metric for anybody to compare, same with resiliency.

Auditing can be done electronically, even via AI now.

It sounds like you’re saying since they have more monetary resources they are more stable, which is true for large companies. Banks don’t own their assets though, a customer can come at any time and remove money. In fact this was rumored to happen in Canada last year, where your 5 major banks went offline after Trudeau opened his mouth about the Freedom Convoy.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by drumhead on Saturday April 29, 2023 @02:39AM (#35750602)
Honestly? They've got to let the damage happen. Were in this mess because every time we got close to a recession the central banks would cut interest rates to keep the economy going, more money would get pumped into the economy and asset prices would keep on rising. We need a recession to kill inflation, destroy unproductive assets and give us room to grow again. The aversion to recession is destroying us.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by tekknik on Sunday April 30, 2023 @09:07AM (#35762193)
> The aversion to recession is destroying us.

The aversion to recession comes from people disliking the idea of losing their job, house, way of life, hell maybe even their family. This is like saying some people need to suffer and lose everything for the greater good.

Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by gsatic on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:43AM (#35752800)
Whats next is you bank directly with the FED.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by cronix on Saturday April 29, 2023 @10:27AM (#35753163)
Here's an app to access your central bank digital currency. We went ahead and converted it for you.
Re:FDIC set to take First Republic Bank into receivership by tekknik on Sunday April 30, 2023 @09:48AM (#35762504)
> What now?

Maybe start holding at least some of your assets in gold or other currencies.